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Thief Dead?

Kachros.4751

By Kachros.4751
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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

Posted
Posted

@Kuma.1503 said:

Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff?

And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Thieves only pick fights they
can pick.
Saying they pick fights they
want
is a gross overstatement. Saying they can afford to sit around while simultaneously claiming they're dedicated to side-noding? Which one is it?

Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away.

Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol.

Do I like how reliant thief has become on stealth over the past year or so? No. But people would complain about thief regardless of their meta build. It's how things go with these kinda characters across all PvP genres.

The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity.

Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down.

That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably.

And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it.

It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting.

Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability
so considerably,
why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified.

If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief.

When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect."

In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map.

I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Depends on your definition of what less interactive means.

I feel like your statement would be better worded as "I find it hard to interact with Thieves" rather than "Thieves are not interactive".

Thieves are very interactive, not only in how they control rotations and +ing, but also how much the player behind the Thief needs to think and calculate his actions before taking them.

In my opinion, some cheese builds like Flame Thrower Scrapper are certainly in every way "less interactive" than Thief, both while playing it or playing against it.

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NorthernRedStar.3054

NorthernRedStar.3054

Posted
Posted

@RedAvenged.5217 said:

@"UNOwen.7132" said:

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Hold it right there.
  • Base 2 Evades
  • Withdraw Evade
  • Roll for Ini Evade
  • DD Steal Endurance refresh + DD innate 1 Evade and let's be fair and say the endurance from steal is 0.5 evades
  • Shadowsteps with SB5 or Sword 2 to get out of enemy attack range can also be counted as "evade"
  • SB3
  • Endurance Regen from Signet of Agility (1 Evade)
  • Daggerstorm

And this is just common loadout from a few meta DD build. (please don't flame for using meta battle, feel free to hit me with other sites sharing popular builds)

Yup. yup.Below average number of evades indeed.Who are yu comparing to? A hacker?

The vigor enhancement in acro is also fairly busted. No class has anything like it- ranger has increased endurance regen and so does guard, but this is no where close to near perma enhanced vigor + an extra dodge from DrD

Wrong. Ranger has Primal Reflexes in Skirmishing, essentially the same trait. The +25% endurance regen in WS is insanely strong on a minor. Enhanced vigor would also be the only reason to take Acrobatics at the moment, since the rest of the tree is essentially worthless post- re-balance. You can evade all you want, but it doesn't disrupt or pressure anyone. And, considering the amount of damage and boon strip you lose by taking Acro, you'll be hitting like a wet noodle.

It's funny you're talking about thief's evade skills, which are all insanely telegraphed. It is super easy to time a hit into Dagger Storm or Withdraw unless the thief directly follows up with a dodge roll. Shadowstep or SB5 counted as evade? Sure, if the description of "evade" entails becoming unable to deal any meaningful damage for the next 4-5 seconds, or to waste an important high-CD utility.

Swipe doesn't refresh endurance if it misses. SB3 is, again, super telegraphed and has a massive aftercast. SoA only restores half an evade at the moment. See now why a lot of thieves are kinda upset, both about the recent nerfs as well as people begging for more?

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RedAvenged.5217

RedAvenged.5217

Posted
Posted

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

@"RedAvenged.5217" said:

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Hold it right there.
  • Base 2 Evades
  • Withdraw Evade
  • Roll for Ini Evade
  • DD Steal Endurance refresh + DD innate 1 Evade and let's be fair and say the endurance from steal is 0.5 evades
  • Shadowsteps with SB5 or Sword 2 to get out of enemy attack range can also be counted as "evade"
  • SB3
  • Endurance Regen from Signet of Agility (1 Evade)
  • Daggerstorm

And this is just common loadout from a few meta DD build. (please don't flame for using meta battle, feel free to hit me with other sites sharing popular builds)

Yup. yup.Below average number of evades indeed.Who are yu comparing to? A hacker?

The vigor enhancement in acro is also fairly busted. No class has anything like it- ranger has increased endurance regen and so does guard, but this is no where close to near perma enhanced vigor + an extra dodge from DrD

Wrong. Ranger has Primal Reflexes in Skirmishing, essentially the same trait. The +25% endurance regen in WS is insanely strong on a minor. Enhanced vigor would also be the only reason to take Acrobatics at the moment, since the rest of the tree is essentially worthless post- re-balance. You can evade all you want, but it doesn't disrupt or pressure anyone. And, considering the amount of damage and boon strip you lose by taking Acro, you'll be hitting like a wet noodle.

It's funny you're talking about thief's evade skills, which are all insanely telegraphed. It is super easy to time a hit into Dagger Storm or Withdraw unless the thief directly follows up with a dodge roll. Shadowstep or SB5 counted as evade? Sure, if the description of "evade" entails becoming unable to deal any meaningful damage for the next 4-5 seconds, or to waste an important high-CD utility.

Swipe doesn't refresh endurance if it misses. SB3 is, again, super telegraphed and has a massive aftercast.
SoA only restores half an evade at the moment.
See now why a lot of thieves are kinda upset, both about the recent nerfs as well as people begging for more?

I don’t really get why you are trying to tell me how to play my class. Every season I haven’t had to help a low rated friend or queue for gold I’ve been plat3-legend playing what I play best.

I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day. It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip.

I could argue that’s the best for s/d rn unless your into swd 3 into swipe combos etc where DA would do ok dmg.

But again if you look at my original post while builds like that are ‘good rn’, I am prevented from playing thief at all rn becuz of how strong rev is- go figure ?‍♂️?‍♂️?‍♂️

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NorthernRedStar.3054

NorthernRedStar.3054

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Posted

@RedAvenged.5217 said:

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Hold it right there.
  • Base 2 Evades
  • Withdraw Evade
  • Roll for Ini Evade
  • DD Steal Endurance refresh + DD innate 1 Evade and let's be fair and say the endurance from steal is 0.5 evades
  • Shadowsteps with SB5 or Sword 2 to get out of enemy attack range can also be counted as "evade"
  • SB3
  • Endurance Regen from Signet of Agility (1 Evade)
  • Daggerstorm

And this is just common loadout from a few meta DD build. (please don't flame for using meta battle, feel free to hit me with other sites sharing popular builds)

Yup. yup.Below average number of evades indeed.Who are yu comparing to? A hacker?

The vigor enhancement in acro is also fairly busted. No class has anything like it- ranger has increased endurance regen and so does guard, but this is no where close to near perma enhanced vigor + an extra dodge from DrD

Wrong. Ranger has Primal Reflexes in Skirmishing, essentially the same trait. The +25% endurance regen in WS is insanely strong on a minor. Enhanced vigor would also be the only reason to take Acrobatics at the moment, since the rest of the tree is essentially worthless post- re-balance. You can evade all you want, but it doesn't disrupt or pressure anyone. And, considering the amount of damage and boon strip you lose by taking Acro, you'll be hitting like a wet noodle.

It's funny you're talking about thief's evade skills, which are all insanely telegraphed. It is super easy to time a hit into Dagger Storm or Withdraw unless the thief directly follows up with a dodge roll. Shadowstep or SB5 counted as evade? Sure, if the description of "evade" entails becoming unable to deal any meaningful damage for the next 4-5 seconds, or to waste an important high-CD utility.

Swipe doesn't refresh endurance if it misses. SB3 is, again, super telegraphed and has a massive aftercast.
SoA only restores half an evade at the moment.
See now why a lot of thieves are kinda upset, both about the recent nerfs as well as people begging for more?

I don’t really get why you are trying to tell me how to play my class. Every season I haven’t had to help a low rated friend or queue for gold I’ve been plat3-legend playing what I play best.

I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day. It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip.

I could argue that’s the best for s/d rn unless your into swd 3 into swipe combos etc where DA would do ok dmg.

But again if you look at my original post while builds like that are ‘good rn’, I am prevented from playing thief at all rn becuz of how strong rev is- go figure ?‍
♂️
?‍
♂️
?‍
♂️

Since when is debunking a false claim telling someone "how to play their class"?

I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day.

Silly claim, but alright. What class wouldn't like some extra vigor on top?

It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip.

The only way you get full benefit from Acro is by going core. And going core < dd under any and every circumstance atm. People seem to be heavily overrating the situational modifiers you get from Crit and the flat power bonus you get from Acro compared to the ones in DD, Trickery, SA and Deadly.

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RedAvenged.5217

RedAvenged.5217

Posted
Posted

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Hold it right there.
  • Base 2 Evades
  • Withdraw Evade
  • Roll for Ini Evade
  • DD Steal Endurance refresh + DD innate 1 Evade and let's be fair and say the endurance from steal is 0.5 evades
  • Shadowsteps with SB5 or Sword 2 to get out of enemy attack range can also be counted as "evade"
  • SB3
  • Endurance Regen from Signet of Agility (1 Evade)
  • Daggerstorm

And this is just common loadout from a few meta DD build. (please don't flame for using meta battle, feel free to hit me with other sites sharing popular builds)

Yup. yup.Below average number of evades indeed.Who are yu comparing to? A hacker?

The vigor enhancement in acro is also fairly busted. No class has anything like it- ranger has increased endurance regen and so does guard, but this is no where close to near perma enhanced vigor + an extra dodge from DrD

Wrong. Ranger has Primal Reflexes in Skirmishing, essentially the same trait. The +25% endurance regen in WS is insanely strong on a minor. Enhanced vigor would also be the only reason to take Acrobatics at the moment, since the rest of the tree is essentially worthless post- re-balance. You can evade all you want, but it doesn't disrupt or pressure anyone. And, considering the amount of damage and boon strip you lose by taking Acro, you'll be hitting like a wet noodle.

It's funny you're talking about thief's evade skills, which are all insanely telegraphed. It is super easy to time a hit into Dagger Storm or Withdraw unless the thief directly follows up with a dodge roll. Shadowstep or SB5 counted as evade? Sure, if the description of "evade" entails becoming unable to deal any meaningful damage for the next 4-5 seconds, or to waste an important high-CD utility.

Swipe doesn't refresh endurance if it misses. SB3 is, again, super telegraphed and has a massive aftercast.
SoA only restores half an evade at the moment.
See now why a lot of thieves are kinda upset, both about the recent nerfs as well as people begging for more?

I don’t really get why you are trying to tell me how to play my class. Every season I haven’t had to help a low rated friend or queue for gold I’ve been plat3-legend playing what I play best.

I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day. It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip.

I could argue that’s the best for s/d rn unless your into swd 3 into swipe combos etc where DA would do ok dmg.

But again if you look at my original post while builds like that are ‘good rn’, I am prevented from playing thief at all rn becuz of how strong rev is- go figure ?‍
♂️
?‍
♂️
?‍
♂️

Since when is debunking a false claim
telling someone "how to play their class"?

I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day.

Silly claim, but alright. What class wouldn't like some extra vigor on top?

It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip.

The only way you get full benefit from Acro is by going core. And going core < dd under any and every circumstance atm. People seem to be heavily overrating the situational modifiers you get from Crit and the flat power bonus you get from Acro compared to the ones in DD, Trickery, SA and Deadly.

Right your debunking other people’s claims. What an enjoyable guy.

Well I will challenge everything you said. Ranger even with vigor which on many builds is lacking would still have lower overall endurance and recovery.That’s 1 point to me.

There is no extra benefit of acro from going core.That is baseless becuz acro doesn’t depend on anything unlike stuff like valkeryie ranger which require a lot of synergy.2 points for me

I tested it live for weeks- acro, trickery, daredevil. Your autos and all base skills do higher damage than deadly arts, only way to catch up on deadly arts is combos with swipe and in the end you have less.So another point to me.

I highly question the integrity of your post. It is all baseless. So for 1 I’d like to know what high rated thief says you need to play core rn. Also do you think it’s not possible to play acro in a sword build? That was done fine for years and was meta at times. So also I’d like to know what your rating is becuz I doubt this is coming from anyone but you.

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NorthernRedStar.3054

NorthernRedStar.3054

Posted
Posted

@RedAvenged.5217 said:

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Hold it right there.
  • Base 2 Evades
  • Withdraw Evade
  • Roll for Ini Evade
  • DD Steal Endurance refresh + DD innate 1 Evade and let's be fair and say the endurance from steal is 0.5 evades
  • Shadowsteps with SB5 or Sword 2 to get out of enemy attack range can also be counted as "evade"
  • SB3
  • Endurance Regen from Signet of Agility (1 Evade)
  • Daggerstorm

And this is just common loadout from a few meta DD build. (please don't flame for using meta battle, feel free to hit me with other sites sharing popular builds)

Yup. yup.Below average number of evades indeed.Who are yu comparing to? A hacker?

The vigor enhancement in acro is also fairly busted. No class has anything like it- ranger has increased endurance regen and so does guard, but this is no where close to near perma enhanced vigor + an extra dodge from DrD

Wrong. Ranger has Primal Reflexes in Skirmishing, essentially the same trait. The +25% endurance regen in WS is insanely strong on a minor. Enhanced vigor would also be the only reason to take Acrobatics at the moment, since the rest of the tree is essentially worthless post- re-balance. You can evade all you want, but it doesn't disrupt or pressure anyone. And, considering the amount of damage and boon strip you lose by taking Acro, you'll be hitting like a wet noodle.

It's funny you're talking about thief's evade skills, which are all insanely telegraphed. It is super easy to time a hit into Dagger Storm or Withdraw unless the thief directly follows up with a dodge roll. Shadowstep or SB5 counted as evade? Sure, if the description of "evade" entails becoming unable to deal any meaningful damage for the next 4-5 seconds, or to waste an important high-CD utility.

Swipe doesn't refresh endurance if it misses. SB3 is, again, super telegraphed and has a massive aftercast.
SoA only restores half an evade at the moment.
See now why a lot of thieves are kinda upset, both about the recent nerfs as well as people begging for more?

I don’t really get why you are trying to tell me how to play my class. Every season I haven’t had to help a low rated friend or queue for gold I’ve been plat3-legend playing what I play best.

I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day. It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip.

I could argue that’s the best for s/d rn unless your into swd 3 into swipe combos etc where DA would do ok dmg.

But again if you look at my original post while builds like that are ‘good rn’, I am prevented from playing thief at all rn becuz of how strong rev is- go figure ?‍
♂️
?‍
♂️
?‍
♂️

Since when is debunking a false claim
telling someone "how to play their class"?

I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day.

Silly claim, but alright. What class wouldn't like some extra vigor on top?

It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip.

The only way you get full benefit from Acro is by going core. And going core < dd under any and every circumstance atm. People seem to be heavily overrating the situational modifiers you get from Crit and the flat power bonus you get from Acro compared to the ones in DD, Trickery, SA and Deadly.

Right your debunking other people’s claims. What an enjoyable guy.

Well I will challenge everything you said. Ranger even with vigor which on many builds is lacking would still have lower overall endurance and recovery.That’s 1 point to me.

There is no extra benefit of acro from going core.That is baseless becuz acro doesn’t depend on anything unlike stuff like valkeryie ranger which require a lot of synergy.2 points for me

I tested it live for weeks- acro, trickery, daredevil. Your autos and all base skills do higher damage than deadly arts, only way to catch up on deadly arts is combos with swipe and in the end you have less.So another point to me.

I highly question the integrity of your post. It is all baseless. So for 1 I’d like to know what high rated thief says you need to play core rn. Also do you think it’s not possible to play acro in a sword build? That was done fine for years and was meta at times. So also I’d like to know what your rating is becuz I doubt this is coming from anyone but you.

Haha, this some kinda competition to you? What did you test on -
golems in the lobby?

I do understand if the bot-infested NA provides apt targets to spam autos on, though. Additionally, it turns out you can't read properly, so by all means compete amidst your own inflated ego.

I tested it live for weeks- acro, trickery, daredevil. Your autos and all base skills do higher damage than deadly arts, only way to catch up on deadly arts is combos with swipe and in the end you have less.

It looks like, to me anyways, you don't understand the fundamental nature of the majority of thief builds.

Nice edit btw.

I didn’t edit anything. Seems you just have decided to resort to insulting ppl too, so I’m done here

Pot to a kettle. Just FYI, you're lucky to be on NA. You'd get destroyed in higher tier EU play.

I play on Eu all the time at a high rating. I’m guessing this is probably just your average threat that “me and my friends would really rough you up”?

High rating does not equal higher level of play.

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Falan.1839

Falan.1839

Posted
Posted

It is still very good at either forcing 5v4 by making one sidenoder afk on a node or getting free decaps. +1s a are bit more complicated now with the tanky meta, so it isn't an autopick anymore. Now you need a comp and strat that revolves around it to make that aspect work to full extent, like Prestige and Gold Three Plus have done it in the recent organized tournaments (mAT and Hardstuck Open) by reviving the old Mesmer+Thief paintrain. But if you are able to play around it as a team, it's still a very viable pick imo. With DP DrD, Cthief and DE both being a factor you also have several options to choose between depending on what you face, with different builds punishing different opponents in +1s (and even some 1v1s).

So no, it's not dead, you just actually have to think about how to make it work in a comp instead of default picking it for whatever comp you play. To make it short, reports of thief's death have been greatly exaggerated...

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RedAvenged.5217

RedAvenged.5217

Posted
Posted

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Hold it right there.
  • Base 2 Evades
  • Withdraw Evade
  • Roll for Ini Evade
  • DD Steal Endurance refresh + DD innate 1 Evade and let's be fair and say the endurance from steal is 0.5 evades
  • Shadowsteps with SB5 or Sword 2 to get out of enemy attack range can also be counted as "evade"
  • SB3
  • Endurance Regen from Signet of Agility (1 Evade)
  • Daggerstorm

And this is just common loadout from a few meta DD build. (please don't flame for using meta battle, feel free to hit me with other sites sharing popular builds)

Yup. yup.Below average number of evades indeed.Who are yu comparing to? A hacker?

The vigor enhancement in acro is also fairly busted. No class has anything like it- ranger has increased endurance regen and so does guard, but this is no where close to near perma enhanced vigor + an extra dodge from DrD

Wrong. Ranger has Primal Reflexes in Skirmishing, essentially the same trait. The +25% endurance regen in WS is insanely strong on a minor. Enhanced vigor would also be the only reason to take Acrobatics at the moment, since the rest of the tree is essentially worthless post- re-balance. You can evade all you want, but it doesn't disrupt or pressure anyone. And, considering the amount of damage and boon strip you lose by taking Acro, you'll be hitting like a wet noodle.

It's funny you're talking about thief's evade skills, which are all insanely telegraphed. It is super easy to time a hit into Dagger Storm or Withdraw unless the thief directly follows up with a dodge roll. Shadowstep or SB5 counted as evade? Sure, if the description of "evade" entails becoming unable to deal any meaningful damage for the next 4-5 seconds, or to waste an important high-CD utility.

Swipe doesn't refresh endurance if it misses. SB3 is, again, super telegraphed and has a massive aftercast.
SoA only restores half an evade at the moment.
See now why a lot of thieves are kinda upset, both about the recent nerfs as well as people begging for more?

I don’t really get why you are trying to tell me how to play my class. Every season I haven’t had to help a low rated friend or queue for gold I’ve been plat3-legend playing what I play best.

I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day. It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip.

I could argue that’s the best for s/d rn unless your into swd 3 into swipe combos etc where DA would do ok dmg.

But again if you look at my original post while builds like that are ‘good rn’, I am prevented from playing thief at all rn becuz of how strong rev is- go figure ?‍
♂️
?‍
♂️
?‍
♂️

Since when is debunking a false claim
telling someone "how to play their class"?

I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day.

Silly claim, but alright. What class wouldn't like some extra vigor on top?

It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip.

The only way you get full benefit from Acro is by going core. And going core < dd under any and every circumstance atm. People seem to be heavily overrating the situational modifiers you get from Crit and the flat power bonus you get from Acro compared to the ones in DD, Trickery, SA and Deadly.

Right your debunking other people’s claims. What an enjoyable guy.

Well I will challenge everything you said. Ranger even with vigor which on many builds is lacking would still have lower overall endurance and recovery.That’s 1 point to me.

There is no extra benefit of acro from going core.That is baseless becuz acro doesn’t depend on anything unlike stuff like valkeryie ranger which require a lot of synergy.2 points for me

I tested it live for weeks- acro, trickery, daredevil. Your autos and all base skills do higher damage than deadly arts, only way to catch up on deadly arts is combos with swipe and in the end you have less.So another point to me.

I highly question the integrity of your post. It is all baseless. So for 1 I’d like to know what high rated thief says you need to play core rn. Also do you think it’s not possible to play acro in a sword build? That was done fine for years and was meta at times. So also I’d like to know what your rating is becuz I doubt this is coming from anyone but you.

Haha, this some kinda competition to you? What did you test on -
golems in the lobby?

I do understand if the bot-infested NA provides apt targets to spam autos on, though. Additionally, it turns out you can't read properly, so by all means compete amidst your own inflated ego.

I tested it live for weeks- acro, trickery, daredevil. Your autos and all base skills do higher damage than deadly arts, only way to catch up on deadly arts is combos with swipe and in the end you have less.

It looks like, to me anyways, you don't understand the fundamental nature of the majority of thief builds.

Nice edit btw.

I didn’t edit anything. Seems you just have decided to resort to insulting ppl too, so I’m done here

Pot to a kettle. Just FYI, you're lucky to be on NA. You'd get destroyed in higher tier EU play.

I play on Eu all the time at a high rating. I’m guessing this is probably just your average threat that “me and my friends would really rough you up”?

High rating does not equal higher level of play.

Lol rating = to skill rating. And you don’t even know me. You raise those incredibly red flags by talking about my region as if you know me and your wrong. I’ve played at competitive levels in games that are tip top shape compared to gw2, not that I’m gonna talk about it.So buzz off annoying stalker dude

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NorthernRedStar.3054

NorthernRedStar.3054

Posted
Posted

@RedAvenged.5217 said:

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Hold it right there.
  • Base 2 Evades
  • Withdraw Evade
  • Roll for Ini Evade
  • DD Steal Endurance refresh + DD innate 1 Evade and let's be fair and say the endurance from steal is 0.5 evades
  • Shadowsteps with SB5 or Sword 2 to get out of enemy attack range can also be counted as "evade"
  • SB3
  • Endurance Regen from Signet of Agility (1 Evade)
  • Daggerstorm

And this is just common loadout from a few meta DD build. (please don't flame for using meta battle, feel free to hit me with other sites sharing popular builds)

Yup. yup.Below average number of evades indeed.Who are yu comparing to? A hacker?

The vigor enhancement in acro is also fairly busted. No class has anything like it- ranger has increased endurance regen and so does guard, but this is no where close to near perma enhanced vigor + an extra dodge from DrD

Wrong. Ranger has Primal Reflexes in Skirmishing, essentially the same trait. The +25% endurance regen in WS is insanely strong on a minor. Enhanced vigor would also be the only reason to take Acrobatics at the moment, since the rest of the tree is essentially worthless post- re-balance. You can evade all you want, but it doesn't disrupt or pressure anyone. And, considering the amount of damage and boon strip you lose by taking Acro, you'll be hitting like a wet noodle.

It's funny you're talking about thief's evade skills, which are all insanely telegraphed. It is super easy to time a hit into Dagger Storm or Withdraw unless the thief directly follows up with a dodge roll. Shadowstep or SB5 counted as evade? Sure, if the description of "evade" entails becoming unable to deal any meaningful damage for the next 4-5 seconds, or to waste an important high-CD utility.

Swipe doesn't refresh endurance if it misses. SB3 is, again, super telegraphed and has a massive aftercast.
SoA only restores half an evade at the moment.
See now why a lot of thieves are kinda upset, both about the recent nerfs as well as people begging for more?

I don’t really get why you are trying to tell me how to play my class. Every season I haven’t had to help a low rated friend or queue for gold I’ve been plat3-legend playing what I play best.

I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day. It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip.

I could argue that’s the best for s/d rn unless your into swd 3 into swipe combos etc where DA would do ok dmg.

But again if you look at my original post while builds like that are ‘good rn’, I am prevented from playing thief at all rn becuz of how strong rev is- go figure ?‍
♂️
?‍
♂️
?‍
♂️

Since when is debunking a false claim
telling someone "how to play their class"?

I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day.

Silly claim, but alright. What class wouldn't like some extra vigor on top?

It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip.

The only way you get full benefit from Acro is by going core. And going core < dd under any and every circumstance atm. People seem to be heavily overrating the situational modifiers you get from Crit and the flat power bonus you get from Acro compared to the ones in DD, Trickery, SA and Deadly.

Right your debunking other people’s claims. What an enjoyable guy.

Well I will challenge everything you said. Ranger even with vigor which on many builds is lacking would still have lower overall endurance and recovery.That’s 1 point to me.

There is no extra benefit of acro from going core.That is baseless becuz acro doesn’t depend on anything unlike stuff like valkeryie ranger which require a lot of synergy.2 points for me

I tested it live for weeks- acro, trickery, daredevil. Your autos and all base skills do higher damage than deadly arts, only way to catch up on deadly arts is combos with swipe and in the end you have less.So another point to me.

I highly question the integrity of your post. It is all baseless. So for 1 I’d like to know what high rated thief says you need to play core rn. Also do you think it’s not possible to play acro in a sword build? That was done fine for years and was meta at times. So also I’d like to know what your rating is becuz I doubt this is coming from anyone but you.

Haha, this some kinda competition to you? What did you test on -
golems in the lobby?

I do understand if the bot-infested NA provides apt targets to spam autos on, though. Additionally, it turns out you can't read properly, so by all means compete amidst your own inflated ego.

I tested it live for weeks- acro, trickery, daredevil. Your autos and all base skills do higher damage than deadly arts, only way to catch up on deadly arts is combos with swipe and in the end you have less.

It looks like, to me anyways, you don't understand the fundamental nature of the majority of thief builds.

Nice edit btw.

I didn’t edit anything. Seems you just have decided to resort to insulting ppl too, so I’m done here

Pot to a kettle. Just FYI, you're lucky to be on NA. You'd get destroyed in higher tier EU play.

I play on Eu all the time at a high rating. I’m guessing this is probably just your average threat that “me and my friends would really rough you up”?

High rating does not equal higher level of play.

Lol rating = to skill rating. And you don’t even know me. You raise those incredibly red flags by talking about my region as if you know me and your wrong. I’ve played at competitive levels in games that are tip top shape compared to gw2, not that I’m gonna talk about it.So buzz off annoying stalker dude

Are you alright? Genuine question. You assume a lot, project a lot and state things that aren't even remotely true. I suppose you think you're the only one here who's always in the top few % in every game they invest a bit of time into.

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RedAvenged.5217

RedAvenged.5217

Posted
Posted

@NorthernRedStar.3054 said:

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Hold it right there.
  • Base 2 Evades
  • Withdraw Evade
  • Roll for Ini Evade
  • DD Steal Endurance refresh + DD innate 1 Evade and let's be fair and say the endurance from steal is 0.5 evades
  • Shadowsteps with SB5 or Sword 2 to get out of enemy attack range can also be counted as "evade"
  • SB3
  • Endurance Regen from Signet of Agility (1 Evade)
  • Daggerstorm

And this is just common loadout from a few meta DD build. (please don't flame for using meta battle, feel free to hit me with other sites sharing popular builds)

Yup. yup.Below average number of evades indeed.Who are yu comparing to? A hacker?

The vigor enhancement in acro is also fairly busted. No class has anything like it- ranger has increased endurance regen and so does guard, but this is no where close to near perma enhanced vigor + an extra dodge from DrD

Wrong. Ranger has Primal Reflexes in Skirmishing, essentially the same trait. The +25% endurance regen in WS is insanely strong on a minor. Enhanced vigor would also be the only reason to take Acrobatics at the moment, since the rest of the tree is essentially worthless post- re-balance. You can evade all you want, but it doesn't disrupt or pressure anyone. And, considering the amount of damage and boon strip you lose by taking Acro, you'll be hitting like a wet noodle.

It's funny you're talking about thief's evade skills, which are all insanely telegraphed. It is super easy to time a hit into Dagger Storm or Withdraw unless the thief directly follows up with a dodge roll. Shadowstep or SB5 counted as evade? Sure, if the description of "evade" entails becoming unable to deal any meaningful damage for the next 4-5 seconds, or to waste an important high-CD utility.

Swipe doesn't refresh endurance if it misses. SB3 is, again, super telegraphed and has a massive aftercast.
SoA only restores half an evade at the moment.
See now why a lot of thieves are kinda upset, both about the recent nerfs as well as people begging for more?

I don’t really get why you are trying to tell me how to play my class. Every season I haven’t had to help a low rated friend or queue for gold I’ve been plat3-legend playing what I play best.

I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day. It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip.

I could argue that’s the best for s/d rn unless your into swd 3 into swipe combos etc where DA would do ok dmg.

But again if you look at my original post while builds like that are ‘good rn’, I am prevented from playing thief at all rn becuz of how strong rev is- go figure ?‍
♂️
?‍
♂️
?‍
♂️

Since when is debunking a false claim
telling someone "how to play their class"?

I would rather have thief’s endurance regen over any classes any day.

Silly claim, but alright. What class wouldn't like some extra vigor on top?

It funny how you talk about how bad the damage and the boon rip of acro is considering. If you played acro it would be on S/d most likely and due to swindlers equilibrium you will end up with higher damage, assuming enough ferocity ofc, and more boon rip.

The only way you get full benefit from Acro is by going core. And going core < dd under any and every circumstance atm. People seem to be heavily overrating the situational modifiers you get from Crit and the flat power bonus you get from Acro compared to the ones in DD, Trickery, SA and Deadly.

Right your debunking other people’s claims. What an enjoyable guy.

Well I will challenge everything you said. Ranger even with vigor which on many builds is lacking would still have lower overall endurance and recovery.That’s 1 point to me.

There is no extra benefit of acro from going core.That is baseless becuz acro doesn’t depend on anything unlike stuff like valkeryie ranger which require a lot of synergy.2 points for me

I tested it live for weeks- acro, trickery, daredevil. Your autos and all base skills do higher damage than deadly arts, only way to catch up on deadly arts is combos with swipe and in the end you have less.So another point to me.

I highly question the integrity of your post. It is all baseless. So for 1 I’d like to know what high rated thief says you need to play core rn. Also do you think it’s not possible to play acro in a sword build? That was done fine for years and was meta at times. So also I’d like to know what your rating is becuz I doubt this is coming from anyone but you.

Haha, this some kinda competition to you? What did you test on -
golems in the lobby?

I do understand if the bot-infested NA provides apt targets to spam autos on, though. Additionally, it turns out you can't read properly, so by all means compete amidst your own inflated ego.

I tested it live for weeks- acro, trickery, daredevil. Your autos and all base skills do higher damage than deadly arts, only way to catch up on deadly arts is combos with swipe and in the end you have less.

It looks like, to me anyways, you don't understand the fundamental nature of the majority of thief builds.

Nice edit btw.

I didn’t edit anything. Seems you just have decided to resort to insulting ppl too, so I’m done here

Pot to a kettle. Just FYI, you're lucky to be on NA. You'd get destroyed in higher tier EU play.

I play on Eu all the time at a high rating. I’m guessing this is probably just your average threat that “me and my friends would really rough you up”?

High rating does not equal higher level of play.

Lol rating = to skill rating. And you don’t even know me. You raise those incredibly red flags by talking about my region as if you know me and your wrong. I’ve played at competitive levels in games that are tip top shape compared to gw2, not that I’m gonna talk about it.So buzz off annoying stalker dude

Are you alright?
Genuine question. You assume a lot, project a lot and state things that aren't even remotely true. I suppose you think you're the only one here who's always in the top few % in every game they invest a bit of time into.

Your the one that knows me.I don’t know you

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Killthehealersffs.8940

Killthehealersffs.8940

Posted
Posted

@UNOwen.7132 said:

Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff?

And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Thieves only pick fights they
can pick.
Saying they pick fights they
want
is a gross overstatement. Saying they can afford to sit around while simultaneously claiming they're dedicated to side-noding? Which one is it?

Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away.

Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol.

Do I like how reliant thief has become on stealth over the past year or so? No. But people would complain about thief regardless of their meta build. It's how things go with these kinda characters across all PvP genres.

The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity.

Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down.

That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably.

And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it.

It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting.

Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability
so considerably,
why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified.

If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief.

When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect."

In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map.

I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.

So, how do we go from here? Do I select
my
subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

I never said that thief didn't require knowledge or skill to play well. In fact, I implied the opposite. "Brainless, no skill, ect." are terms people often use to label builds they dislike (In fact you did it yourself just now by labeling others as button mashers), but I don't believe those apply to thief (as a whole). The term I used was un-interactive, a problem that exists irrespective of how skillful the class is or isn't.

While I cannot deny that some people have used this label incorrectly in the past, subjectivity should not be a factor when determining how interactive a class is. You can gauge it by looking at gameplay patterns, popular build choices, how matchups play out, as well as a variety of other metrics.

Generally speaking the more evades, blocks, and blinds you have, the more damage you can mitigate, the smaller the window your opponent will have to interact with you by dealing damage or landing CC. Likewise, stealth prevents opponents from landing targeted damage, utilizing targeted ports (huge when disengaging from a Prev) and allows you to conceal tells for your more powerful abilities (e.g. Prime Light Beam from stealth pre-patch. Binding Shadow from stealth).

This much is true. Though, it also changes depending on how frail the class is. A sturdy class like Necro can take more hits than a frail class like ele can, so the same amount of dodges would have different levels of power.

The more mobility you have the easier it will be to prevent interactions altogether by disengaging fights that do not favor you.

You can pretty much always prevent interactions anyway though.

Now consider that thief has an abundance of blinds, mobility, stealth, evades (3 baseline as DrD plus utilities and weapon skills). Because it has these tools in its kit, most classes must accept that chasing after a thief, or trying to prevent a thief from doing it's job is a futile effort. The best you can do, shy of playing thief yourself, is try to be more useful elsewhere on the map.

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Now the part you got right is that its pointless to chase after a thief. To compensate for the fact that thief can
never
under any circumstances win an even fight, they have the tools to run away. They kinda need them, mobility is the only reason thief is viable. If their mobility was merely on par with, say, Ranger, Warrior or Revenant, Thief would be a universally troll-tier pick worth reporting for.

In spite of all of this, I still think that thief should be buffed. The reason is that thief's un-interactivity is a double edged sword. Being difficult to interact with is theif's strength, and they are encouraged to play to that strength. However, when a thief does choose to interact with other classes, they are among the weakest at accomplishing that goal, at least according to thief mains. I'm sure you've heard the complaints "Thief cannot 1v1. Thief is useless in teamfights. Thief +1s aren't 2v1's they're 1.5v1's" ect.

Not just amongst the weakest, they're
the
weakest. And yes, that part is accurate. Its why thief is the only entirely unplayable class in 2v2 and 3v3.

When I say "Make thief more interactable" it goes both ways. Broaden the window for classes to punish them, give more classes ways of dealing with stealth, but also give thieves more tools to duke it out when they decide to fight rather than avoiding conflict altogether.

Giving classes ways of dealing with stealth is genuinely pointless because stealth in combat is already terrible. And if you have melee attacks, channeled attacks, AoE attacks, burst attacks or CC, you already have ways (And the only class that has none of these is pretty much Deadeye). The only possible solution is to reduce thieves mobility to average, then give them
massive
buffs to both damage and survivability.

I missed you dude...I remember 4 months ago , saying that stealth wasnt the problem in WvW , but instead they should had nerfed sb5 .But they cant nerf it , because it had become hard intergrated part into the game .And now in this thread you are saying they they changed , because they did a failed expiriment and their ego wont allow them to change it back :(.

So what now ?What will you sucrifice next , for the stealth ?The dodge of Dredevil trait should not get out or Immobilize ?The 30% damage reduction from the Daredevil traitline ?Shadow Shot' Blind should be like the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashbang in duration (from 5 >1,5 + no longer Unblockable) ?

Shadowstep should not have 2 parts , where you can escape more easily ?

Lets recap , our old conversation :a)BalackPowder +Heartseekr , you gain stealth when you jump , not when it ends ... you can see videos on Youtube , that the enemy thief gains stealth when he Heartseeker >jumps animation ...and not near your feet .a.k.a 0,65 sec ...While the Black Powder has no casting animations , you dont know what the Thief is going to do and prevent him , when he starfing-circiling around you .When the Powder it complete , its already too late and reduced the 0,5 sec counterplay and living him 0,15 sec to react .....which in videos games the TOP END reaction is more than 0,215 :P(0,215 for 100-meter-dash-young -people ,ready to hear the starting pistol and when the same people played games on pc (not online , with lag) , it became 0,315)

b) Combat stealth is extramly useful , just see the Guardians Stealth Runes Traps which people are using lately ...where people whined that they gave him trementous boost in survibility :PIt has the samedelay , before he goes in stealth .(Just rename Ele Core "Summoned Weapoen" to traps and reduce their casting speed to 0...common .... + their aoes , becomes movable like the gyros and gain increase effect , if they step in other player-friends fields.....)

c) If you believe that some1 with use 100-nades , in the location you will land while stealthing > use the Shadowstep mid-air ....it has the"Return" part that last for 15 sec ...if a second 100-nade from a different Enginner is incomeing to your new location .

d) If people are gonna use attacks that track you (Rangers Longbow , Necro-Axe) , while you stealtt....it means they wont use it in the duel ...while they wait for you to stealth ...which if you dont , they wont use them >they will do less damage >which means you dont have to stealth

e) Blind is useless ? What was the trait from Enginner ,that offer Blind when he dodge and people whined about it and got nerfed ? TWICE ..the Blind part ....ah here it is : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashbang ..and its from offensive tree , with 0 survibility , while other classes has in passivly n their weapon attacks:)

Lets again , have a healthy-not-cercular-copy-paste-conversation , while i try to sort by my 18 terra animes... so boring task..

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Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

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Posted

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff?

And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Thieves only pick fights they
can pick.
Saying they pick fights they
want
is a gross overstatement. Saying they can afford to sit around while simultaneously claiming they're dedicated to side-noding? Which one is it?

Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away.

Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol.

Do I like how reliant thief has become on stealth over the past year or so? No. But people would complain about thief regardless of their meta build. It's how things go with these kinda characters across all PvP genres.

The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity.

Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down.

That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably.

And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it.

It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting.

Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability
so considerably,
why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified.

If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief.

When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect."

In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map.

I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.

So, how do we go from here? Do I select
my
subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

I never said that thief didn't require knowledge or skill to play well. In fact, I implied the opposite. "Brainless, no skill, ect." are terms people often use to label builds they dislike (In fact you did it yourself just now by labeling others as button mashers), but I don't believe those apply to thief (as a whole). The term I used was un-interactive, a problem that exists irrespective of how skillful the class is or isn't.

While I cannot deny that some people have used this label incorrectly in the past, subjectivity should not be a factor when determining how interactive a class is. You can gauge it by looking at gameplay patterns, popular build choices, how matchups play out, as well as a variety of other metrics.

Generally speaking the more evades, blocks, and blinds you have, the more damage you can mitigate, the smaller the window your opponent will have to interact with you by dealing damage or landing CC. Likewise, stealth prevents opponents from landing targeted damage, utilizing targeted ports (huge when disengaging from a Prev) and allows you to conceal tells for your more powerful abilities (e.g. Prime Light Beam from stealth pre-patch. Binding Shadow from stealth).

This much is true. Though, it also changes depending on how frail the class is. A sturdy class like Necro can take more hits than a frail class like ele can, so the same amount of dodges would have different levels of power.

The more mobility you have the easier it will be to prevent interactions altogether by disengaging fights that do not favor you.

You can pretty much always prevent interactions anyway though.

Now consider that thief has an abundance of blinds, mobility, stealth, evades (3 baseline as DrD plus utilities and weapon skills). Because it has these tools in its kit, most classes must accept that chasing after a thief, or trying to prevent a thief from doing it's job is a futile effort. The best you can do, shy of playing thief yourself, is try to be more useful elsewhere on the map.

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Now the part you got right is that its pointless to chase after a thief. To compensate for the fact that thief can
never
under any circumstances win an even fight, they have the tools to run away. They kinda need them, mobility is the only reason thief is viable. If their mobility was merely on par with, say, Ranger, Warrior or Revenant, Thief would be a universally troll-tier pick worth reporting for.

In spite of all of this, I still think that thief should be buffed. The reason is that thief's un-interactivity is a double edged sword. Being difficult to interact with is theif's strength, and they are encouraged to play to that strength. However, when a thief does choose to interact with other classes, they are among the weakest at accomplishing that goal, at least according to thief mains. I'm sure you've heard the complaints "Thief cannot 1v1. Thief is useless in teamfights. Thief +1s aren't 2v1's they're 1.5v1's" ect.

Not just amongst the weakest, they're
the
weakest. And yes, that part is accurate. Its why thief is the only entirely unplayable class in 2v2 and 3v3.

When I say "Make thief more interactable" it goes both ways. Broaden the window for classes to punish them, give more classes ways of dealing with stealth, but also give thieves more tools to duke it out when they decide to fight rather than avoiding conflict altogether.

Giving classes ways of dealing with stealth is genuinely pointless because stealth in combat is already terrible. And if you have melee attacks, channeled attacks, AoE attacks, burst attacks or CC, you already have ways (And the only class that has none of these is pretty much Deadeye). The only possible solution is to reduce thieves mobility to average, then give them
massive
buffs to both damage and survivability.

I missed you dude...I remember 4 months ago , saying that stealth wasnt the problem in WvW , but instead they should had nerfed sb5 .But they cant nerf it , because it had become hard intergrated part into the game .And now in this thread you are saying they they changed , because they did a failed expiriment and their ego wont allow them to change it back :(.

So what now ?What will you sucrifice next , for the stealth ?The dodge of Dredevil trait should not get out or Immobilize ?The 30% damage reduction from the Daredevil traitline ?Shadow Shot' Blind should be like the
in duration (from 5 >1,5 + no longer Unblockable) ?

Shadowstep should not have 2 parts , where you can escape more easily ?

Lets recap , our old conversation :a)BalackPowder +Heartseekr , you gain stealth when you jump , not when it ends ... you can see videos on Youtube , that the enemy thief gains stealth when he Heartseeker >jumps animation ...and not near your feet .a.k.a 0,65 sec ...While the Black Powder has no casting animations , you dont know what the Thief is going to do and prevent him , when he starfing-circiling around you .When the Powder it complete , its already too late and reduced the 0,5 sec counterplay and living him 0,15 sec to react .....which in videos games the TOP END reaction is more than 0,215 :P(
0,215 for 100-meter-dash-young -people ,ready to hear the starting pistol and when the same people played games on pc (not online , with lag) , it became 0,315
)

b) Combat stealth is extramly useful ,
just see the Guardians Stealth Runes Traps which people are using lately ...where people whined that they gave him trementous boost in survibility :P
It has the samedelay , before he goes in stealth .(
Just rename Ele Core "Summoned Weapoen" to traps and reduce their casting speed to 0...common .... + their aoes , becomes movable like the gyros and gain increase effect , if they step in other player-friends fields
.....)

c) If you believe that some1 with use 100-nades , in the location you will land while stealthing > use the Shadowstep mid-air ....it has the"Return" part that last for 15 sec ...if a second 100-nade from a different Enginner is incomeing to your new location .

d) If people are gonna use attacks that track you (Rangers Longbow , Necro-Axe) , while you stealtt....it means they wont use it in the duel ...while they wait for you to stealth ...which if you dont , they wont use them >they will do less damage >which means you dont have to stealth

e)
Blind is useless ? What was the trait from Enginner ,that offer Blind when he dodge and people whined about it and got nerfed ?
TWICE ..the Blind part ....ah here it is :
..and its from offensive tree , with 0 survibility , while other classes has in passivly n their weapon attacks:)

Lets again , have a healthy-not-cercular-copy-paste-conversation , while i try to sort by my 18 terra animes... so boring task..

Hold on. Stealth on guard is so broken because the class wasn't designed with access to stealth and mobility in mind. Guard has way higher access to block, invuls, heals, hard CCs than thief. Also higher armor (yes, it counts) and trapper also gives super speed which thief does not have. Please don't compare apples to pears. Would thief have as much survivability as guard (even as DH) you would be screaming bloody murder here 24/7.

You whole argument is "teef tools are stronk on other classes so teef is stronk" ... except you forget other classes also have other things which thief just doesn't have or have to sacrifice a lot to get it.

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Killthehealersffs.8940

Killthehealersffs.8940

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Posted

@Cynz.9437 said:

Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff?

And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Thieves only pick fights they
can pick.
Saying they pick fights they
want
is a gross overstatement. Saying they can afford to sit around while simultaneously claiming they're dedicated to side-noding? Which one is it?

Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away.

Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol.

Do I like how reliant thief has become on stealth over the past year or so? No. But people would complain about thief regardless of their meta build. It's how things go with these kinda characters across all PvP genres.

The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity.

Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down.

That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably.

And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it.

It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting.

Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability
so considerably,
why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified.

If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief.

When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect."

In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map.

I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.

So, how do we go from here? Do I select
my
subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

I never said that thief didn't require knowledge or skill to play well. In fact, I implied the opposite. "Brainless, no skill, ect." are terms people often use to label builds they dislike (In fact you did it yourself just now by labeling others as button mashers), but I don't believe those apply to thief (as a whole). The term I used was un-interactive, a problem that exists irrespective of how skillful the class is or isn't.

While I cannot deny that some people have used this label incorrectly in the past, subjectivity should not be a factor when determining how interactive a class is. You can gauge it by looking at gameplay patterns, popular build choices, how matchups play out, as well as a variety of other metrics.

Generally speaking the more evades, blocks, and blinds you have, the more damage you can mitigate, the smaller the window your opponent will have to interact with you by dealing damage or landing CC. Likewise, stealth prevents opponents from landing targeted damage, utilizing targeted ports (huge when disengaging from a Prev) and allows you to conceal tells for your more powerful abilities (e.g. Prime Light Beam from stealth pre-patch. Binding Shadow from stealth).

This much is true. Though, it also changes depending on how frail the class is. A sturdy class like Necro can take more hits than a frail class like ele can, so the same amount of dodges would have different levels of power.

The more mobility you have the easier it will be to prevent interactions altogether by disengaging fights that do not favor you.

You can pretty much always prevent interactions anyway though.

Now consider that thief has an abundance of blinds, mobility, stealth, evades (3 baseline as DrD plus utilities and weapon skills). Because it has these tools in its kit, most classes must accept that chasing after a thief, or trying to prevent a thief from doing it's job is a futile effort. The best you can do, shy of playing thief yourself, is try to be more useful elsewhere on the map.

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Now the part you got right is that its pointless to chase after a thief. To compensate for the fact that thief can
never
under any circumstances win an even fight, they have the tools to run away. They kinda need them, mobility is the only reason thief is viable. If their mobility was merely on par with, say, Ranger, Warrior or Revenant, Thief would be a universally troll-tier pick worth reporting for.

In spite of all of this, I still think that thief should be buffed. The reason is that thief's un-interactivity is a double edged sword. Being difficult to interact with is theif's strength, and they are encouraged to play to that strength. However, when a thief does choose to interact with other classes, they are among the weakest at accomplishing that goal, at least according to thief mains. I'm sure you've heard the complaints "Thief cannot 1v1. Thief is useless in teamfights. Thief +1s aren't 2v1's they're 1.5v1's" ect.

Not just amongst the weakest, they're
the
weakest. And yes, that part is accurate. Its why thief is the only entirely unplayable class in 2v2 and 3v3.

When I say "Make thief more interactable" it goes both ways. Broaden the window for classes to punish them, give more classes ways of dealing with stealth, but also give thieves more tools to duke it out when they decide to fight rather than avoiding conflict altogether.

Giving classes ways of dealing with stealth is genuinely pointless because stealth in combat is already terrible. And if you have melee attacks, channeled attacks, AoE attacks, burst attacks or CC, you already have ways (And the only class that has none of these is pretty much Deadeye). The only possible solution is to reduce thieves mobility to average, then give them
massive
buffs to both damage and survivability.

I missed you dude...I remember 4 months ago , saying that stealth wasnt the problem in WvW , but instead they should had nerfed sb5 .But they cant nerf it , because it had become hard intergrated part into the game .And now in this thread you are saying they they changed , because they did a failed expiriment and their ego wont allow them to change it back :(.

So what now ?What will you sucrifice next , for the stealth ?The dodge of Dredevil trait should not get out or Immobilize ?The 30% damage reduction from the Daredevil traitline ?Shadow Shot' Blind should be like the
in duration (from 5 >1,5 + no longer Unblockable) ?

Shadowstep should not have 2 parts , where you can escape more easily ?

Lets recap , our old conversation :a)BalackPowder +Heartseekr , you gain stealth when you jump , not when it ends ... you can see videos on Youtube , that the enemy thief gains stealth when he Heartseeker >jumps animation ...and not near your feet .a.k.a 0,65 sec ...While the Black Powder has no casting animations , you dont know what the Thief is going to do and prevent him , when he starfing-circiling around you .When the Powder it complete , its already too late and reduced the 0,5 sec counterplay and living him 0,15 sec to react .....which in videos games the TOP END reaction is more than 0,215 :P(
0,215 for 100-meter-dash-young -people ,ready to hear the starting pistol and when the same people played games on pc (not online , with lag) , it became 0,315
)

b) Combat stealth is extramly useful ,
just see the Guardians Stealth Runes Traps which people are using lately ...where people whined that they gave him trementous boost in survibility :P
It has the samedelay , before he goes in stealth .(
Just rename Ele Core "Summoned Weapoen" to traps and reduce their casting speed to 0...common .... + their aoes , becomes movable like the gyros and gain increase effect , if they step in other player-friends fields
.....)

c) If you believe that some1 with use 100-nades , in the location you will land while stealthing > use the Shadowstep mid-air ....it has the"Return" part that last for 15 sec ...if a second 100-nade from a different Enginner is incomeing to your new location .

d) If people are gonna use attacks that track you (Rangers Longbow , Necro-Axe) , while you stealtt....it means they wont use it in the duel ...while they wait for you to stealth ...which if you dont , they wont use them >they will do less damage >which means you dont have to stealth

e)
Blind is useless ? What was the trait from Enginner ,that offer Blind when he dodge and people whined about it and got nerfed ?
TWICE ..the Blind part ....ah here it is :
..and its from offensive tree , with 0 survibility , while other classes has in passivly n their weapon attacks:)

Lets again , have a healthy-not-cercular-copy-paste-conversation , while i try to sort by my 18 terra animes... so boring task..

Hold on. Stealth on guard is so broken because the class wasn't designed with access to stealth and mobility in mind. Guard has way higher access to block, invuls, heals, hard CCs than thief. Also higher armor (yes, it counts) and trapper also gives super speed which thief does not have. Please don't compare apples to pears. Would thief have as much survivability as guard (even as DH) you would be screaming bloody murder here 24/7.

You whole argument is "teef tools are stronk on other classes so teef is stronk" ... except you forget other classes also have other things which thief just doesn't have or have to sacrifice a lot to get it.

His argument , is that combat stealth is worthless and any1 should avoid it . I am simply chasing him like puppy , for circular conversation :PHow was Anna from Overwatch , back in 2015 ?

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Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

Posted
Posted

@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff?

And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Thieves only pick fights they
can pick.
Saying they pick fights they
want
is a gross overstatement. Saying they can afford to sit around while simultaneously claiming they're dedicated to side-noding? Which one is it?

Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away.

Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol.

Do I like how reliant thief has become on stealth over the past year or so? No. But people would complain about thief regardless of their meta build. It's how things go with these kinda characters across all PvP genres.

The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity.

Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down.

That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably.

And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it.

It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting.

Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability
so considerably,
why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified.

If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief.

When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect."

In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map.

I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.

So, how do we go from here? Do I select
my
subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

I never said that thief didn't require knowledge or skill to play well. In fact, I implied the opposite. "Brainless, no skill, ect." are terms people often use to label builds they dislike (In fact you did it yourself just now by labeling others as button mashers), but I don't believe those apply to thief (as a whole). The term I used was un-interactive, a problem that exists irrespective of how skillful the class is or isn't.

While I cannot deny that some people have used this label incorrectly in the past, subjectivity should not be a factor when determining how interactive a class is. You can gauge it by looking at gameplay patterns, popular build choices, how matchups play out, as well as a variety of other metrics.

Generally speaking the more evades, blocks, and blinds you have, the more damage you can mitigate, the smaller the window your opponent will have to interact with you by dealing damage or landing CC. Likewise, stealth prevents opponents from landing targeted damage, utilizing targeted ports (huge when disengaging from a Prev) and allows you to conceal tells for your more powerful abilities (e.g. Prime Light Beam from stealth pre-patch. Binding Shadow from stealth).

This much is true. Though, it also changes depending on how frail the class is. A sturdy class like Necro can take more hits than a frail class like ele can, so the same amount of dodges would have different levels of power.

The more mobility you have the easier it will be to prevent interactions altogether by disengaging fights that do not favor you.

You can pretty much always prevent interactions anyway though.

Now consider that thief has an abundance of blinds, mobility, stealth, evades (3 baseline as DrD plus utilities and weapon skills). Because it has these tools in its kit, most classes must accept that chasing after a thief, or trying to prevent a thief from doing it's job is a futile effort. The best you can do, shy of playing thief yourself, is try to be more useful elsewhere on the map.

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Now the part you got right is that its pointless to chase after a thief. To compensate for the fact that thief can
never
under any circumstances win an even fight, they have the tools to run away. They kinda need them, mobility is the only reason thief is viable. If their mobility was merely on par with, say, Ranger, Warrior or Revenant, Thief would be a universally troll-tier pick worth reporting for.

In spite of all of this, I still think that thief should be buffed. The reason is that thief's un-interactivity is a double edged sword. Being difficult to interact with is theif's strength, and they are encouraged to play to that strength. However, when a thief does choose to interact with other classes, they are among the weakest at accomplishing that goal, at least according to thief mains. I'm sure you've heard the complaints "Thief cannot 1v1. Thief is useless in teamfights. Thief +1s aren't 2v1's they're 1.5v1's" ect.

Not just amongst the weakest, they're
the
weakest. And yes, that part is accurate. Its why thief is the only entirely unplayable class in 2v2 and 3v3.

When I say "Make thief more interactable" it goes both ways. Broaden the window for classes to punish them, give more classes ways of dealing with stealth, but also give thieves more tools to duke it out when they decide to fight rather than avoiding conflict altogether.

Giving classes ways of dealing with stealth is genuinely pointless because stealth in combat is already terrible. And if you have melee attacks, channeled attacks, AoE attacks, burst attacks or CC, you already have ways (And the only class that has none of these is pretty much Deadeye). The only possible solution is to reduce thieves mobility to average, then give them
massive
buffs to both damage and survivability.

I missed you dude...I remember 4 months ago , saying that stealth wasnt the problem in WvW , but instead they should had nerfed sb5 .But they cant nerf it , because it had become hard intergrated part into the game .And now in this thread you are saying they they changed , because they did a failed expiriment and their ego wont allow them to change it back :(.

So what now ?What will you sucrifice next , for the stealth ?The dodge of Dredevil trait should not get out or Immobilize ?The 30% damage reduction from the Daredevil traitline ?Shadow Shot' Blind should be like the
in duration (from 5 >1,5 + no longer Unblockable) ?

Shadowstep should not have 2 parts , where you can escape more easily ?

Lets recap , our old conversation :a)BalackPowder +Heartseekr , you gain stealth when you jump , not when it ends ... you can see videos on Youtube , that the enemy thief gains stealth when he Heartseeker >jumps animation ...and not near your feet .a.k.a 0,65 sec ...While the Black Powder has no casting animations , you dont know what the Thief is going to do and prevent him , when he starfing-circiling around you .When the Powder it complete , its already too late and reduced the 0,5 sec counterplay and living him 0,15 sec to react .....which in videos games the TOP END reaction is more than 0,215 :P(
0,215 for 100-meter-dash-young -people ,ready to hear the starting pistol and when the same people played games on pc (not online , with lag) , it became 0,315
)

b) Combat stealth is extramly useful ,
just see the Guardians Stealth Runes Traps which people are using lately ...where people whined that they gave him trementous boost in survibility :P
It has the samedelay , before he goes in stealth .(
Just rename Ele Core "Summoned Weapoen" to traps and reduce their casting speed to 0...common .... + their aoes , becomes movable like the gyros and gain increase effect , if they step in other player-friends fields
.....)

c) If you believe that some1 with use 100-nades , in the location you will land while stealthing > use the Shadowstep mid-air ....it has the"Return" part that last for 15 sec ...if a second 100-nade from a different Enginner is incomeing to your new location .

d) If people are gonna use attacks that track you (Rangers Longbow , Necro-Axe) , while you stealtt....it means they wont use it in the duel ...while they wait for you to stealth ...which if you dont , they wont use them >they will do less damage >which means you dont have to stealth

e)
Blind is useless ? What was the trait from Enginner ,that offer Blind when he dodge and people whined about it and got nerfed ?
TWICE ..the Blind part ....ah here it is :
..and its from offensive tree , with 0 survibility , while other classes has in passivly n their weapon attacks:)

Lets again , have a healthy-not-cercular-copy-paste-conversation , while i try to sort by my 18 terra animes... so boring task..

Hold on. Stealth on guard is so broken because the class wasn't designed with access to stealth and mobility in mind. Guard has way higher access to block, invuls, heals, hard CCs than thief. Also higher armor (yes, it counts) and trapper also gives super speed which thief does not have. Please don't compare apples to pears. Would thief have as much survivability as guard (even as DH) you would be screaming bloody murder here 24/7.

You whole argument is "teef tools are stronk on other classes so teef is stronk" ... except you forget other classes also have other things which thief just doesn't have or have to sacrifice a lot to get it.

His argument , is that combat stealth is worthless and any1 should avoid it . I am simply chasing him like puppy , for circular conversation :PHow was Anna from Overwatch , back in 2015 ?

They didn't say useless just probably not the best tool to survive listed situations.

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KrHome.1920

KrHome.1920

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@Cynz.9437 said:Hold on. Stealth on guard is so broken because the class wasn't designed with access to stealth and mobility in mind. Guard has way higher access to block, invuls, heals, hard CCs than thief. Also higher armor (yes, it counts) and trapper also gives super speed which thief does not have. Please don't compare apples to pears. Would thief have as much survivability as guard (even as DH) you would be screaming bloody murder here 24/7.This is not an argument anymore in 2021. Class design is nowhere near as separated as 5 years ago.

Daredevil has the highest evasion uptime in the game and a low cooldown block on top. That fact isolated not an issue already. The bigger picture is important.

You could even give necro a block if you would lower the life force generation by maybe 25% (which is huge! just to put that into perspective) and the class would end up even weaker in certain situations but stronger in others - just different at the end of the day, but not broken.

And it is like this with any other class too. A trapper guard has clear counters (because the traps themself have clear counters) and the few seconds of stealth do not change that.

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Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

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@KrHome.1920 said:

@"Cynz.9437" said:Hold on. Stealth on guard is so broken because the class wasn't designed with access to stealth and mobility in mind. Guard has way higher access to block, invuls, heals, hard CCs than thief. Also higher armor (yes, it counts) and trapper also gives super speed which thief does not have. Please don't compare apples to pears. Would thief have as much survivability as guard (even as DH) you would be screaming bloody murder here 24/7.This is not an argument anymore in 2021. Class design is nowhere near as separated as 5 years ago.

Daredevil has the highest evasion uptime in the game and a low cooldown block on top. That fact isolated not an issue already. The bigger picture is important.

You could even give necro a block if you would lower the life force generation by maybe 25% (which is huge! just to put that into perspective) and the class would end up even weaker in certain situations but stronger in others - just different at the end of the day, but not broken.

And it is like this with any other class too. A trapper guard has clear counters (because the traps themself have clear counters) and the few seconds of stealth do not change that.

DD just has dodges.... that block is channeled utility, compare it to aegis/fire and forget blocks on guard. So if argument i brought up doesn't work anymore then it shouldn't work for thief either. Let's make backstab and HS AoE with higher damage coeffcients. Stealth giving automatically aegis. Steal instantly stomping enemy. I could think of more stupid crap that is somehow acceptable on other classes but not ok on thief - no, all that class gets is SB5 nerf because.... well... who knows? It is ok for DH to deal high aoe damage, have mobility and stealth but not for thief? Why? Everyone here says "teef is fine guize" well doesn't it mean that DH is broken?

You want bigger picture? PvP is flooded with guards and necros with some revs in between. Why? Because those things don't die as easy and get kills. What else do they all have in common? They can cover point with crap load of high damaging aoe. In a game mode requiring people to stand on point - what could go wrong. Fire and forget. Messed up dodge? No problem. Messed up CD? No problem. For some builds game even plays for you (traps and minions), can literary just... you know, turn on a bot.

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Killthehealersffs.8940

Killthehealersffs.8940

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@Cynz.9437 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:Hold on. Stealth on guard is so broken because the class wasn't designed with access to stealth and mobility in mind. Guard has way higher access to block, invuls, heals, hard CCs than thief. Also higher armor (yes, it counts) and trapper also gives super speed which thief does not have. Please don't compare apples to pears. Would thief have as much survivability as guard (even as DH) you would be screaming bloody murder here 24/7.This is not an argument anymore in 2021. Class design is nowhere near as separated as 5 years ago.

Daredevil has the highest evasion uptime in the game and a low cooldown block on top. That fact isolated not an issue already. The bigger picture is important.

You could even give necro a block if you would lower the life force generation by maybe 25% (which is huge! just to put that into perspective) and the class would end up even weaker in certain situations but stronger in others - just different at the end of the day, but not broken.

And it is like this with any other class too. A trapper guard has clear counters (because the traps themself have clear counters) and the few seconds of stealth do not change that.

DD just has dodges.... that block is channeled utility, compare it to aegis/fire and forget blocks on guard. So if argument i brought up doesn't work anymore then it shouldn't work for thief either. Let's make backstab and HS AoE with higher damage coeffcients. Stealth giving automatically aegis. Steal instantly stomping enemy. I could think of more stupid kitten that is somehow acceptable on other classes but not ok on thief - no, all that class gets is SB5 nerf because.... well... who knows? It is ok for DH to deal high aoe damage, have mobility and stealth but not for thief? Why? Everyone here says "teef is fine guize" well doesn't it mean that DH is broken?

You want bigger picture? PvP is flooded with guards and necros with some revs in between. Why? Because those things don't die as easy and get kills. What else do they all have in common? They can cover point with kitten load of high damaging aoe. In a game mode requiring people to stand on point - what could go wrong. Fire and forget. Messed up dodge? No problem. Messed up CD? No problem. For some builds game even plays for you (traps and minions), can literary just... you know, turn on a bot.

Then , how about removing the Unblocable part from the Shadow Shot (it still can retain the 5 sec Blind + 3k damage + free teleport(is it my idea , or its kinda overloaded?) and instead tranform Shortbow into an aoe machine , just like the Rev Shortbow ?

Plus Core Thief , have lower cost across the board (2-3) + weapon swap is 3 sec + each attack has 2 parts :a) Ammo (2x) , deals a instant cast aoe Burn field/or any direct attack (gains Haste)b) When the ammo is used , any next attack behaves like slow paced Cluster Bomb (3kk from here ...2k from there...boom conistend-nonstop 18k damage in 2.5 sec for ever -half of them aoe )

So Thief will be a piano class , like Engineer + Ele , rather than camping the same 2-3 attacks ?

edit2: You know what ? You can have 3 weapon swap , with 1-2 cost spells (for the 2x ammos of each attack ) , if you want to be a "Taskmaster" and showcase the fluidity of the engine , but Stealth (across the game) should behave like new Loki's from Smite or any other MMO + the Dodge DearDevild trait that offer 450 yard range + remove slows , should not remove immobilize too (you have Shadowstep for emergency )edit3:Also give back the 2x dodge for Mesmers , that allow them to remove stuns + allow them to travel some distance to avoid aoes/slows ... (like the rest of the classes , 120-180 yards)

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Cynz.9437

Cynz.9437

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@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

@Cynz.9437 said:Hold on. Stealth on guard is so broken because the class wasn't designed with access to stealth and mobility in mind. Guard has way higher access to block, invuls, heals, hard CCs than thief. Also higher armor (yes, it counts) and trapper also gives super speed which thief does not have. Please don't compare apples to pears. Would thief have as much survivability as guard (even as DH) you would be screaming bloody murder here 24/7.This is not an argument anymore in 2021. Class design is nowhere near as separated as 5 years ago.

Daredevil has the highest evasion uptime in the game and a low cooldown block on top. That fact isolated not an issue already. The bigger picture is important.

You could even give necro a block if you would lower the life force generation by maybe 25% (which is huge! just to put that into perspective) and the class would end up even weaker in certain situations but stronger in others - just different at the end of the day, but not broken.

And it is like this with any other class too. A trapper guard has clear counters (because the traps themself have clear counters) and the few seconds of stealth do not change that.

DD just has dodges.... that block is channeled utility, compare it to aegis/fire and forget blocks on guard. So if argument i brought up doesn't work anymore then it shouldn't work for thief either. Let's make backstab and HS AoE with higher damage coeffcients. Stealth giving automatically aegis. Steal instantly stomping enemy. I could think of more stupid kitten that is somehow acceptable on other classes but not ok on thief - no, all that class gets is SB5 nerf because.... well... who knows? It is ok for DH to deal high aoe damage, have mobility and stealth but not for thief? Why? Everyone here says "teef is fine guize" well doesn't it mean that DH is broken?

You want bigger picture? PvP is flooded with guards and necros with some revs in between. Why? Because those things don't die as easy and get kills. What else do they all have in common? They can cover point with kitten load of high damaging aoe. In a game mode requiring people to stand on point - what could go wrong. Fire and forget. Messed up dodge? No problem. Messed up CD? No problem. For some builds game even plays for you (traps and minions), can literary just... you know, turn on a bot.

Then , how about removing the Unblocable part from the Shadow Shot (it still can retain the 5 sec Blind + 3k damage + free teleport(
is it my idea , or its kinda overloaded?
) and instead tranform Shortbow into an aoe machine , just like the Rev Shortbow ?

Plus Core Thief , have lower cost across the board (2-3) + weapon swap is 3 sec + each attack has 2 parts :a) Ammo (2x) , deals a instant cast aoe Burn field/or any direct attack (gains Haste)b) When the ammo is used , any next attack behaves like slow paced Cluster Bomb (3kk from here ...2k from there...boom conistend-nonstop 18k damage in 2.5 sec for ever -half of them aoe )

So Thief will be a piano class , like Engineer + Ele , rather than camping the same 2-3 attacks ?

edit2: You know what ? You can have 3 weapon swap , with 1-2 cost spells (for the 2x ammos of each attack ) , if you want to be a "Taskmaster" and showcase the fluidity of the engine , but Stealth (across the game) should behave like new Loki's from Smite or any other MMO + the Dodge DearDevild trait that offer 450 yard range + remove slows , should not remove immobilize too (you have Shadowstep for emergency )edit3:Also give back the 2x dodge for Mesmers , that allow them to remove stuns + allow them to travel some distance to avoid aoes/slows ... (like the rest of the classes , 120-180 yards)

You missed the part where i obviously said that those changes are not ok. My point is, that this shouldn't be ok for other classes either. Also, one more point why stealth is not ok on DH as it is. If i am fighting a thief and they go in stealth i can still spam AA or AoE to lure them out or damage them enough to run - i don't need to run out. If i am fighting DH, i have to run out because i most likely gonna be nuked by the traps/soj and similar.

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UNOwen.7132

UNOwen.7132

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@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff?

And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Thieves only pick fights they
can pick.
Saying they pick fights they
want
is a gross overstatement. Saying they can afford to sit around while simultaneously claiming they're dedicated to side-noding? Which one is it?

Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away.

Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol.

Do I like how reliant thief has become on stealth over the past year or so? No. But people would complain about thief regardless of their meta build. It's how things go with these kinda characters across all PvP genres.

The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity.

Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down.

That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably.

And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it.

It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting.

Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability
so considerably,
why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified.

If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief.

When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect."

In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map.

I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.

So, how do we go from here? Do I select
my
subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

I never said that thief didn't require knowledge or skill to play well. In fact, I implied the opposite. "Brainless, no skill, ect." are terms people often use to label builds they dislike (In fact you did it yourself just now by labeling others as button mashers), but I don't believe those apply to thief (as a whole). The term I used was un-interactive, a problem that exists irrespective of how skillful the class is or isn't.

While I cannot deny that some people have used this label incorrectly in the past, subjectivity should not be a factor when determining how interactive a class is. You can gauge it by looking at gameplay patterns, popular build choices, how matchups play out, as well as a variety of other metrics.

Generally speaking the more evades, blocks, and blinds you have, the more damage you can mitigate, the smaller the window your opponent will have to interact with you by dealing damage or landing CC. Likewise, stealth prevents opponents from landing targeted damage, utilizing targeted ports (huge when disengaging from a Prev) and allows you to conceal tells for your more powerful abilities (e.g. Prime Light Beam from stealth pre-patch. Binding Shadow from stealth).

This much is true. Though, it also changes depending on how frail the class is. A sturdy class like Necro can take more hits than a frail class like ele can, so the same amount of dodges would have different levels of power.

The more mobility you have the easier it will be to prevent interactions altogether by disengaging fights that do not favor you.

You can pretty much always prevent interactions anyway though.

Now consider that thief has an abundance of blinds, mobility, stealth, evades (3 baseline as DrD plus utilities and weapon skills). Because it has these tools in its kit, most classes must accept that chasing after a thief, or trying to prevent a thief from doing it's job is a futile effort. The best you can do, shy of playing thief yourself, is try to be more useful elsewhere on the map.

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Now the part you got right is that its pointless to chase after a thief. To compensate for the fact that thief can
never
under any circumstances win an even fight, they have the tools to run away. They kinda need them, mobility is the only reason thief is viable. If their mobility was merely on par with, say, Ranger, Warrior or Revenant, Thief would be a universally troll-tier pick worth reporting for.

In spite of all of this, I still think that thief should be buffed. The reason is that thief's un-interactivity is a double edged sword. Being difficult to interact with is theif's strength, and they are encouraged to play to that strength. However, when a thief does choose to interact with other classes, they are among the weakest at accomplishing that goal, at least according to thief mains. I'm sure you've heard the complaints "Thief cannot 1v1. Thief is useless in teamfights. Thief +1s aren't 2v1's they're 1.5v1's" ect.

Not just amongst the weakest, they're
the
weakest. And yes, that part is accurate. Its why thief is the only entirely unplayable class in 2v2 and 3v3.

When I say "Make thief more interactable" it goes both ways. Broaden the window for classes to punish them, give more classes ways of dealing with stealth, but also give thieves more tools to duke it out when they decide to fight rather than avoiding conflict altogether.

Giving classes ways of dealing with stealth is genuinely pointless because stealth in combat is already terrible. And if you have melee attacks, channeled attacks, AoE attacks, burst attacks or CC, you already have ways (And the only class that has none of these is pretty much Deadeye). The only possible solution is to reduce thieves mobility to average, then give them
massive
buffs to both damage and survivability.

I missed you dude...I remember 4 months ago , saying that stealth wasnt the problem in WvW , but instead they should had nerfed sb5 .

Oh great, the clueless guy is back. No wonder with equally wrong takes.

But they cant nerf it , because it had become hard intergrated part into the game .And now in this thread you are saying they they changed , because they did a failed expiriment and their ego wont allow them to change it back :(.

What are you talking about? SB5 nerf absolutely worked, most of the top tier teams have dropped thief now. Its also terrible at suriving now.

So what now ?What will you sucrifice next , for the stealth ?The dodge of Dredevil trait should not get out or Immobilize ?The 30% damage reduction from the Daredevil traitline ?Shadow Shot' Blind should be like the https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashbang in duration (from 5 >1,5 + no longer Unblockable) ?

Shadowstep should not have 2 parts , where you can escape more easily ?

No one is sacrificing anything for stealth. They're sacrificing it for mobility. And now that mobility is lessened, its time they get things back. Or revert SB5 if they don't want to give thief things back.

Lets recap , our old conversation :a)BalackPowder +Heartseekr , you gain stealth when you jump , not when it ends ... you can see videos on Youtube , that the enemy thief gains stealth when he Heartseeker >jumps animation ...and not near your feet .

A statement you made repeatedly. A statement I proved multiple times to be completely wrong. You gain stealth at the end of the animation, after 1.25 seconds, end of story.

a.k.a 0,65 sec ...While the Black Powder has no casting animations , you dont know what the Thief is going to do and prevent him , when he starfing-circiling around you .

It literally has a 0.5 cast time and a clear animation. I know complaining about thief while knowing literally nothing about it is your calling card, but come on.

When the Powder it complete , its already too late and reduced the 0,5 sec counterplay and living him 0,15 sec to react .....which in videos games the TOP END reaction is more than 0,215 :P

Still wrong.

b) Combat stealth is extramly useful , just see the Guardians Stealth Runes Traps which people are using lately ...where people whined that they gave him trementous boost in survibility :PIt has the samedelay , before he goes in stealth .(Just rename Ele Core "Summoned Weapoen" to traps and reduce their casting speed to 0...common .... + their aoes , becomes movable like the gyros and gain increase effect , if they step in other player-friends fields.....)

For the first time in a very, very long time, you said something thats not completely wrong. Its uh, still almost completely wrong. What people complain about with Guardians getting traps is that its a class that isnt balanced around stealth getting it. They don't have to do anything special to access stealth, they do so by using the tools they use anyway. They can use stealth to cover up high cast times (Which thief can't because the only one it has, Death's Judgement, has a baked-in reveal). And they have passive Aegis. That is why it is strong on Guardian, not on thief. Because Guardian gets extra upsides, but none of the downsides.

c) If you believe that some1 with use 100-nades , in the location you will land while stealthing > use the Shadowstep mid-air ....it has the"Return" part that last for 15 sec ...if a second 100-nade from a different Enginner is incomeing to your new location .

This is not a sentence.

d) If people are gonna use attacks that track you (Rangers Longbow , Necro-Axe) , while you stealtt....it means they wont use it in the duel ...while they wait for you to stealth ...which if you dont , they wont use them >they will do less damage >which means you dont have to stealth

You clearly never played thief. I mean, duh, obviously you never played thief, else you'd know something about it, but this makes it even more painfully clear. A, they can easily kill you without those skills. Their damage is higher than yours either way. B, if they use them, you need to get out somehow, and according to you stealth is the best at that, but completely fails.

e) Blind is useless ? What was the trait from Enginner ,that offer Blind when he dodge and people whined about it and got nerfed ? TWICE ..the Blind part ....ah here it is : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Flashbang ..and its from offensive tree , with 0 survibility , while other classes has in passivly n their weapon attacks:)

Blind is good when its free and fast. Thieves blinds are neither of those things. They tend to not be great.

Lets again , have a healthy-not-cercular-copy-paste-conversation , while i try to sort by my 18 terra animes... so boring task..

There is no way to have any conversation worth having with you. You are proudly, gleefully ignorant, and refuse to ever accept that you're wrong. All I can do is repeat the fact that you are wrong, don't know anything about thief, and frankly should never talk about thief until you learn anything.

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Vancho.8750

Vancho.8750

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See ill point it out simple reason why the meta is the way it is. Nothing can match thief in rotations even after the nerfs and nothing can kill thief, so how do the rest of the people counter that, since they do not have any chance at beating a thief at their game they will pick sturdier builds that can handle ganks long enough to get help and pick aoe skills that might hit at random a thief to deter them a little. So even though thief is not the best pick for this meta it is the one that dictates how the meta is played and when someone decides to go against the meta with glassier build that can probably crack the more bunkery teamfight combos, thief can substitute 1 slot and farm the glass build. Thief is basically suffering from success.

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Miles Smiles.8951

Miles Smiles.8951

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@"Killthehealersffs.8940" said:

c) If you believe that some1 with use 100-nades , in the location you will land while stealthing > use the Shadowstep mid-air ....it has the"Return" part that last for 15 sec ...if a second 100-nade from a different Enginner is incomeing to your new location .

d) If people are gonna use attacks that track you (Rangers Longbow , Necro-Axe) , while you stealtt....it means they wont use it in the duel ...while they wait for you to stealth ...which if you dont , they wont use them >they will do less damage >which means you dont have to stealth

Still have a slight suspicion that you might be serious, but these two were really funny anyway, ty :)"d" is just a truly marvelous way to mindgame somebody

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Killthehealersffs.8940

Killthehealersffs.8940

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@UNOwen.7132 said:

Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff?

And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Thieves only pick fights they
can pick.
Saying they pick fights they
want
is a gross overstatement. Saying they can afford to sit around while simultaneously claiming they're dedicated to side-noding? Which one is it?

Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away.

Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol.

Do I like how reliant thief has become on stealth over the past year or so? No. But people would complain about thief regardless of their meta build. It's how things go with these kinda characters across all PvP genres.

The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity.

Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down.

That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably.

And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it.

It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting.

Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability
so considerably,
why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified.

If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief.

When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect."

In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map.

I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.

So, how do we go from here? Do I select
my
subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

I never said that thief didn't require knowledge or skill to play well. In fact, I implied the opposite. "Brainless, no skill, ect." are terms people often use to label builds they dislike (In fact you did it yourself just now by labeling others as button mashers), but I don't believe those apply to thief (as a whole). The term I used was un-interactive, a problem that exists irrespective of how skillful the class is or isn't.

While I cannot deny that some people have used this label incorrectly in the past, subjectivity should not be a factor when determining how interactive a class is. You can gauge it by looking at gameplay patterns, popular build choices, how matchups play out, as well as a variety of other metrics.

Generally speaking the more evades, blocks, and blinds you have, the more damage you can mitigate, the smaller the window your opponent will have to interact with you by dealing damage or landing CC. Likewise, stealth prevents opponents from landing targeted damage, utilizing targeted ports (huge when disengaging from a Prev) and allows you to conceal tells for your more powerful abilities (e.g. Prime Light Beam from stealth pre-patch. Binding Shadow from stealth).

This much is true. Though, it also changes depending on how frail the class is. A sturdy class like Necro can take more hits than a frail class like ele can, so the same amount of dodges would have different levels of power.

The more mobility you have the easier it will be to prevent interactions altogether by disengaging fights that do not favor you.

You can pretty much always prevent interactions anyway though.

Now consider that thief has an abundance of blinds, mobility, stealth, evades (3 baseline as DrD plus utilities and weapon skills). Because it has these tools in its kit, most classes must accept that chasing after a thief, or trying to prevent a thief from doing it's job is a futile effort. The best you can do, shy of playing thief yourself, is try to be more useful elsewhere on the map.

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Now the part you got right is that its pointless to chase after a thief. To compensate for the fact that thief can
never
under any circumstances win an even fight, they have the tools to run away. They kinda need them, mobility is the only reason thief is viable. If their mobility was merely on par with, say, Ranger, Warrior or Revenant, Thief would be a universally troll-tier pick worth reporting for.

In spite of all of this, I still think that thief should be buffed. The reason is that thief's un-interactivity is a double edged sword. Being difficult to interact with is theif's strength, and they are encouraged to play to that strength. However, when a thief does choose to interact with other classes, they are among the weakest at accomplishing that goal, at least according to thief mains. I'm sure you've heard the complaints "Thief cannot 1v1. Thief is useless in teamfights. Thief +1s aren't 2v1's they're 1.5v1's" ect.

Not just amongst the weakest, they're
the
weakest. And yes, that part is accurate. Its why thief is the only entirely unplayable class in 2v2 and 3v3.

When I say "Make thief more interactable" it goes both ways. Broaden the window for classes to punish them, give more classes ways of dealing with stealth, but also give thieves more tools to duke it out when they decide to fight rather than avoiding conflict altogether.

Giving classes ways of dealing with stealth is genuinely pointless because stealth in combat is already terrible. And if you have melee attacks, channeled attacks, AoE attacks, burst attacks or CC, you already have ways (And the only class that has none of these is pretty much Deadeye). The only possible solution is to reduce thieves mobility to average, then give them
massive
buffs to both damage and survivability.

I missed you dude...I remember 4 months ago , saying that stealth wasnt the problem in WvW , but instead they should had nerfed sb5 .

Oh great, the clueless guy is back. No wonder with equally wrong takes.

But they cant nerf it , because it had become hard intergrated part into the game .And now in this thread you are saying they they changed , because they did a failed expiriment and their ego wont allow them to change it back :(.

What are you talking about? SB5 nerf absolutely worked, most of the top tier teams have dropped thief now. Its also terrible at suriving now.

So what now ?What will you sucrifice next , for the stealth ?The dodge of Dredevil trait should not get out or Immobilize ?The 30% damage reduction from the Daredevil traitline ?Shadow Shot' Blind should be like the
in duration (from 5 >1,5 + no longer Unblockable) ?

Shadowstep should not have 2 parts , where you can escape more easily ?

No one is sacrificing
anything
for stealth. They're sacrificing it for
mobility
. And now that mobility is lessened, its time they get things back. Or revert SB5 if they don't want to give thief things back.

Lets recap , our old conversation :a)BalackPowder +Heartseekr , you gain stealth when you jump , not when it ends ... you can see videos on Youtube , that the enemy thief gains stealth when he Heartseeker >jumps animation ...and not near your feet .

A statement you made repeatedly. A statement I proved
multiple
times to be completely wrong. You gain stealth at the end of the animation, after 1.25 seconds, end of story.

a.k.a 0,65 sec ...While the Black Powder has no casting animations , you dont know what the Thief is going to do and prevent him , when he starfing-circiling around you .

It literally has a 0.5 cast time and a clear animation. I know complaining about thief while knowing literally
nothing
about it is your calling card, but come on.

When the Powder it complete , its already too late and reduced the 0,5 sec counterplay and living him 0,15 sec to react .....which in videos games the TOP END reaction is more than 0,215 :P

Still wrong.

b) Combat stealth is extramly useful , just see the Guardians Stealth Runes Traps which people are using lately ...where people whined that they gave him trementous boost in survibility :PIt has the samedelay , before he goes in stealth .(
Just rename Ele Core "Summoned Weapoen" to traps and reduce their casting speed to 0...common .... + their aoes , becomes movable like the gyros and gain increase effect , if they step in other player-friends fields
.....)

For the first time in a very,
very
long time, you said something thats not completely wrong. Its uh, still
almost
completely wrong. What people complain about with Guardians getting traps is that its a class that isnt balanced around stealth getting it. They don't have to do anything special to access stealth, they do so by using the tools they use anyway. They can use stealth to cover up high cast times (Which thief can't because the only one it has, Death's Judgement, has a baked-in reveal). And they have passive Aegis. That is why it is strong on Guardian, not on thief. Because Guardian gets extra upsides, but none of the downsides.

c) If you believe that some1 with use 100-nades , in the location you will land while stealthing > use the Shadowstep mid-air ....it has the"Return" part that last for 15 sec ...if a second 100-nade from a different Enginner is incomeing to your new location .

This is not a sentence.

d) If people are gonna use attacks that track you (Rangers Longbow , Necro-Axe) , while you stealtt....it means they wont use it in the duel ...while they wait for you to stealth ...which if you dont , they wont use them >they will do less damage >which means you dont have to stealth

You clearly never played thief. I mean, duh, obviously you never played thief, else you'd know something about it, but this makes it even more painfully clear. A, they can easily kill you without those skills. Their damage is higher than yours either way. B, if they use them, you need to get out somehow, and according to you stealth is the best at that, but completely fails.

e) Blind is useless ? What was the trait from Enginner ,that offer Blind when he dodge and people whined about it and got nerfed ? TWICE ..the Blind part ....ah here it is :
..and its from offensive tree , with 0 survibility , while other classes has in passivly n their weapon attacks:)

Blind is good when its free and fast. Thieves blinds are neither of those things. They tend to not be great.

Lets again , have a healthy-not-cercular-copy-paste-conversation , while i try to sort by my 18 terra animes... so boring task..

There is no way to have any conversation worth having with you. You are proudly,
gleefully
ignorant, and refuse to ever accept that you're wrong. All I can do is repeat the fact that you are wrong, don't know anything about thief, and frankly should never talk about thief until you learn anything.

I didnt ever call you clueless , you pain my old heart :(You really think that you get stealth after 1,25 sec , which you are wrong, you get it at the start of heartseeker animationYou think you are locked and you can do anything , in that 1,25 sec > You can switch weapon to end prematurly the animation to reduce some mini yards and not be the middlelanding position of the 100-nada , or use Shadowstep , or Steal, to avoind 100-nadaWhen you have , to choose an offensive tree ,to get blinds + damage are not free . Lets reduce the blinds duration to 0,5 + the damage from the Shadow Shot + reduce the ini cost to 1 and increase all of them by equiping Acro trait line .People should thank you for nerfing Sb5 , you where themost talkative player going thread to thread , telling that the problem was sb5, instead of stealth and they wouldnt nerf any1 of them ...you wanted to divert other people opinio and backfired :P . (they will never bring back old Flamethrower 3 to use it over fence, i guarantee it)Stealth ,gavea tremendous boost in Guardian suvibility , so in combat stealth is useless , is also wrong . If the "pull" is your personal problem, then code it like the DJ and reduce its cd from 40>0 each time he succefully stealths ..still traps will have a cd...and you can freecap the base ...or better yet....go and activates /dodge the traps yourself

"There is no way to have any conversation worth having with you. You are proudly, gleefully ignorant, and refuse to ever accept that you're wrong. All I can do is repeat the fact that you are wrong, don't know anything about thief, and frankly should never talk about thief until you learn anything."(If we are having conversation , then you wouldnt have time to cheat me with a newcomer in the forums!)

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Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

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@Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff?

And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Thieves only pick fights they
can pick.
Saying they pick fights they
want
is a gross overstatement. Saying they can afford to sit around while simultaneously claiming they're dedicated to side-noding? Which one is it?

Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away.

Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol.

Do I like how reliant thief has become on stealth over the past year or so? No. But people would complain about thief regardless of their meta build. It's how things go with these kinda characters across all PvP genres.

The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity.

Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down.

That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably.

And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it.

It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting.

Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability
so considerably,
why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified.

If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief.

When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect."

In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map.

I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.

So, how do we go from here? Do I select
my
subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

I never said that thief didn't require knowledge or skill to play well. In fact, I implied the opposite. "Brainless, no skill, ect." are terms people often use to label builds they dislike (In fact you did it yourself just now by labeling others as button mashers), but I don't believe those apply to thief (as a whole). The term I used was un-interactive, a problem that exists irrespective of how skillful the class is or isn't.

While I cannot deny that some people have used this label incorrectly in the past, subjectivity should not be a factor when determining how interactive a class is. You can gauge it by looking at gameplay patterns, popular build choices, how matchups play out, as well as a variety of other metrics.

Generally speaking the more evades, blocks, and blinds you have, the more damage you can mitigate, the smaller the window your opponent will have to interact with you by dealing damage or landing CC. Likewise, stealth prevents opponents from landing targeted damage, utilizing targeted ports (huge when disengaging from a Prev) and allows you to conceal tells for your more powerful abilities (e.g. Prime Light Beam from stealth pre-patch. Binding Shadow from stealth).

This much is true. Though, it also changes depending on how frail the class is. A sturdy class like Necro can take more hits than a frail class like ele can, so the same amount of dodges would have different levels of power.

The more mobility you have the easier it will be to prevent interactions altogether by disengaging fights that do not favor you.

You can pretty much always prevent interactions anyway though.

Now consider that thief has an abundance of blinds, mobility, stealth, evades (3 baseline as DrD plus utilities and weapon skills). Because it has these tools in its kit, most classes must accept that chasing after a thief, or trying to prevent a thief from doing it's job is a futile effort. The best you can do, shy of playing thief yourself, is try to be more useful elsewhere on the map.

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Now the part you got right is that its pointless to chase after a thief. To compensate for the fact that thief can
never
under any circumstances win an even fight, they have the tools to run away. They kinda need them, mobility is the only reason thief is viable. If their mobility was merely on par with, say, Ranger, Warrior or Revenant, Thief would be a universally troll-tier pick worth reporting for.

In spite of all of this, I still think that thief should be buffed. The reason is that thief's un-interactivity is a double edged sword. Being difficult to interact with is theif's strength, and they are encouraged to play to that strength. However, when a thief does choose to interact with other classes, they are among the weakest at accomplishing that goal, at least according to thief mains. I'm sure you've heard the complaints "Thief cannot 1v1. Thief is useless in teamfights. Thief +1s aren't 2v1's they're 1.5v1's" ect.

Not just amongst the weakest, they're
the
weakest. And yes, that part is accurate. Its why thief is the only entirely unplayable class in 2v2 and 3v3.

When I say "Make thief more interactable" it goes both ways. Broaden the window for classes to punish them, give more classes ways of dealing with stealth, but also give thieves more tools to duke it out when they decide to fight rather than avoiding conflict altogether.

Giving classes ways of dealing with stealth is genuinely pointless because stealth in combat is already terrible. And if you have melee attacks, channeled attacks, AoE attacks, burst attacks or CC, you already have ways (And the only class that has none of these is pretty much Deadeye). The only possible solution is to reduce thieves mobility to average, then give them
massive
buffs to both damage and survivability.

I missed you dude...I remember 4 months ago , saying that stealth wasnt the problem in WvW , but instead they should had nerfed sb5 .

Oh great, the clueless guy is back. No wonder with equally wrong takes.

But they cant nerf it , because it had become hard intergrated part into the game .And now in this thread you are saying they they changed , because they did a failed expiriment and their ego wont allow them to change it back :(.

What are you talking about? SB5 nerf absolutely worked, most of the top tier teams have dropped thief now. Its also terrible at suriving now.

So what now ?What will you sucrifice next , for the stealth ?The dodge of Dredevil trait should not get out or Immobilize ?The 30% damage reduction from the Daredevil traitline ?Shadow Shot' Blind should be like the
in duration (from 5 >1,5 + no longer Unblockable) ?

Shadowstep should not have 2 parts , where you can escape more easily ?

No one is sacrificing
anything
for stealth. They're sacrificing it for
mobility
. And now that mobility is lessened, its time they get things back. Or revert SB5 if they don't want to give thief things back.

Lets recap , our old conversation :a)BalackPowder +Heartseekr , you gain stealth when you jump , not when it ends ... you can see videos on Youtube , that the enemy thief gains stealth when he Heartseeker >jumps animation ...and not near your feet .

A statement you made repeatedly. A statement I proved
multiple
times to be completely wrong. You gain stealth at the end of the animation, after 1.25 seconds, end of story.

a.k.a 0,65 sec ...While the Black Powder has no casting animations , you dont know what the Thief is going to do and prevent him , when he starfing-circiling around you .

It literally has a 0.5 cast time and a clear animation. I know complaining about thief while knowing literally
nothing
about it is your calling card, but come on.

When the Powder it complete , its already too late and reduced the 0,5 sec counterplay and living him 0,15 sec to react .....which in videos games the TOP END reaction is more than 0,215 :P

Still wrong.

b) Combat stealth is extramly useful , just see the Guardians Stealth Runes Traps which people are using lately ...where people whined that they gave him trementous boost in survibility :PIt has the samedelay , before he goes in stealth .(
Just rename Ele Core "Summoned Weapoen" to traps and reduce their casting speed to 0...common .... + their aoes , becomes movable like the gyros and gain increase effect , if they step in other player-friends fields
.....)

For the first time in a very,
very
long time, you said something thats not completely wrong. Its uh, still
almost
completely wrong. What people complain about with Guardians getting traps is that its a class that isnt balanced around stealth getting it. They don't have to do anything special to access stealth, they do so by using the tools they use anyway. They can use stealth to cover up high cast times (Which thief can't because the only one it has, Death's Judgement, has a baked-in reveal). And they have passive Aegis. That is why it is strong on Guardian, not on thief. Because Guardian gets extra upsides, but none of the downsides.

c) If you believe that some1 with use 100-nades , in the location you will land while stealthing > use the Shadowstep mid-air ....it has the"Return" part that last for 15 sec ...if a second 100-nade from a different Enginner is incomeing to your new location .

This is not a sentence.

d) If people are gonna use attacks that track you (Rangers Longbow , Necro-Axe) , while you stealtt....it means they wont use it in the duel ...while they wait for you to stealth ...which if you dont , they wont use them >they will do less damage >which means you dont have to stealth

You clearly never played thief. I mean, duh, obviously you never played thief, else you'd know something about it, but this makes it even more painfully clear. A, they can easily kill you without those skills. Their damage is higher than yours either way. B, if they use them, you need to get out somehow, and according to you stealth is the best at that, but completely fails.

e) Blind is useless ? What was the trait from Enginner ,that offer Blind when he dodge and people whined about it and got nerfed ? TWICE ..the Blind part ....ah here it is :
..and its from offensive tree , with 0 survibility , while other classes has in passivly n their weapon attacks:)

Blind is good when its free and fast. Thieves blinds are neither of those things. They tend to not be great.

Lets again , have a healthy-not-cercular-copy-paste-conversation , while i try to sort by my 18 terra animes... so boring task..

There is no way to have any conversation worth having with you. You are proudly,
gleefully
ignorant, and refuse to ever accept that you're wrong. All I can do is repeat the fact that you are wrong, don't know anything about thief, and frankly should never talk about thief until you learn anything.

I didnt ever call you clueless , you pain my old heart :(You really think that you get stealth after 1,25 sec , which you are wrong, you get it at the start of heartseeker animationYou think you are locked and you can do anything , in that 1,25 sec > You can switch weapon to end prematurly the animation to reduce some mini yards and not be the middlelanding position of the 100-nada , or use Shadowstep , or Steal, to avoind 100-nadaWhen you have , to choose an offensive tree ,to get blinds + damage are not free . Lets reduce the blinds duration to 0,5 + the damage from the Shadow Shot + reduce the ini cost to 1 and increase all of them by equiping Acro trait line .People should thank you for nerfing Sb5 , you where themost talkative player going thread to thread , telling that the problem was sb5, instead of stealth and they wouldnt nerf any1 of them ...you wanted to divert other people opinio and backfired :P . (
they will never bring back old Flamethrower 3 to use it over fence, i guarantee it
)Stealth ,gavea tremendous boost in Guardian suvibility , so in combat stealth is useless , is also wrong . If the "pull" is your personal problem, then code it like the DJ and reduce its cd from 40>0 each time he succefully stealths ..still traps will have a cd...and you can freecap the base ...or better yet....go and activates /dodge the traps yourself

"There is no way to have any conversation worth having with you. You are proudly, gleefully ignorant, and refuse to ever accept that you're wrong. All I can do is repeat the fact that you are wrong, don't know anything about thief, and frankly should never talk about thief until you learn anything."(
If we are having conversation , then you wouldnt have time to cheat me with a newcomer in the forums!
)

I read first few sentences of ur post so not commenting on such and also didn't read most of the above posts either but that said u are incorrect about stealth initiating on start of heartseekers animation, the skill was designed to give stealth at the piont of contact so when used on a enemy u still get both the damage and the stealth. If u watch a thief doing the combo he'll leap in the air and as they reach the point they are decending stealth is initiated, not at the start of the animation. I do not honestly know the exact time though so can't attest to the 1.25 cast time.

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Psycoprophet.8107

Psycoprophet.8107

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Posted

thiefs not dead but it does need work, as much as people who dislike thiefcan argue against it as a mobile squishy burst class needs more burst if things are to remain the same or similar.For example I mostly play splb these days with bit of DD on the side. On splb I usually run marauder/demo and fighter/brawler (depending on in pvp or wvw) which gives me 24-25k hp with good toughness. My arching slice nets anywhere from 2500-7k dependent on boons and such, dagger 2 nets 900-3k and if I get BC and most of 100 blades off followed by my arcing slice i can net 15k or slightly more. This is on a build sacrificing damage for some sustain on a classes which is now on the lower ladder of over all damage potential when compared to the rest of the roster, of course zerk elite does great damage but its survivability is trash compared to other builds producing the same damage.Now on my DD I go all damage with CS and all damage increase traits on trick/DD lines and run zerk/divinity runes or Infiltration and my backstabs(which require set up and global resources) nets me 2500-4k on average targets and can go up or down by a 2k or so depending on targets attributes. My HS can net 2-4k depending on enemy health and boons as such. My shadow shot on average is 1500-3500 but more around 2500 on most occasions. My hp is 15k'ish(slightly above) with divinity and 13k with infiltration runes. Thief numbers barely match that of warrior and in some cases are lower even when built for all damage and warrior is not, considering thiefs a burst class and warrior is clearly a bruiser those numbers are not even close to balanced and this is from a warrior player who thinks even thier numbers are low compared to the other classes in the roster lol.The games balance right now is beyond bad.

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Killthehealersffs.8940

Killthehealersffs.8940

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@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

Thief utilities have massive cooldowns (in particular when you consider some of the effects), though. You can't say thief doesn't have a trade-off in this aspect of their initiative system.

Why are yu acting like other classes don't have cooldowns either?Are yu seriously pretending that Thieves having cooldowns is a tradeoff?

And Massive only applies to Thieves Guild.All the other utilities I've mentioned have very reasonable cooldowns.

Thieves only pick fights they
can pick.
Saying they pick fights they
want
is a gross overstatement. Saying they can afford to sit around while simultaneously claiming they're dedicated to side-noding? Which one is it?

Same difference. They are allowed to pick the fights.No other class can do this because if they get jumped, they can't just hold up a stop sign, and run away.

Now enter SA ThiefJust pressing the heal skill disengages them with Stealth. Lol.

Do I like how reliant thief has become on stealth over the past year or so? No. But people would complain about thief regardless of their meta build. It's how things go with these kinda characters across all PvP genres.

The issue people have with Thief has already been laid out : extreme non interactivity.

Previously there was only one tried and true way to encounter a Thief, and that is to jump them and instantly put them down.

That's nowhere near possible anymore on any Thief, bar Glass cannon Berserker Thieves, but even then it's a tough customer because Daredevil increases their durability considerably.

And when people suggest : hey why not cut out Thieves' ability to be an untouchable annoying gremlin and give them some combat viability people get all huffed and puffed up about it.

It's as if Thief mains enjoy not fighting.

Ah, yes. The good ol' good ol' "anything I dislike IS uninteractive". Mobility does not make this game uninteractive. If daredevil increases thief's durability
so considerably,
why are stealth builds so vastly popular compared to s/x in both WvW and PvP? Sure, the difference to Pre-Feb 2020 is noticeable, but thief's glass cannon nature isn't nullified.

If what you're saying is that Feb 2020 patch made thieves fundamentally harder to balance, you're absolutely right. Suggesting that everything thieves do is uninteractive, however, is just plain bull.

To be fair, thief is the least interactive class in the game. This isn't bias speaking, it's quite literally the strength of thief.

When people dislike a build they usually use some other ill defined term like "brainless, cheese, noob carry, zero skill, ect."

In this instance, we have a specific term that well describes the problem at hand. Thief IS uninteractive, so much so that the best strategy when dealing with a slippery thief is to interact with them as little as possible. Overinvesting into a thief kill or trying to prevent a decap on your node as a sidenoder is a perfect way to end up wasting your time and throwing the match. Most classes simply have to accept that if a thief does not want to interact with you, they can simply leave any time they want to, and you cannot prevent them from doing so. If a thief wants a decap, they will often get it even if you have a head start on them (this is especially true on maps like colosseum and forest of nifenhel), and with pre-nerf SB5 you were most definitely wasting your time if you tried to stop it. Your best bet was (and arguably still is) to ignore the thief, let them have the cap and either fight with your team, or head to the node on the opposite side of the map.

I would challenge you to name a class less interactive than thief.

Thief requires brain game. People don't want brain game, they want to mash buttons 1-2-3-4-5-6 , get kills and so on. Framing the entire class as the most uninteractive class thanks to a select few meta builds is quite the move.

So, how do we go from here? Do I select
my
subjective opinion of uninteractive and begin listing...?

I never said that thief didn't require knowledge or skill to play well. In fact, I implied the opposite. "Brainless, no skill, ect." are terms people often use to label builds they dislike (In fact you did it yourself just now by labeling others as button mashers), but I don't believe those apply to thief (as a whole). The term I used was un-interactive, a problem that exists irrespective of how skillful the class is or isn't.

While I cannot deny that some people have used this label incorrectly in the past, subjectivity should not be a factor when determining how interactive a class is. You can gauge it by looking at gameplay patterns, popular build choices, how matchups play out, as well as a variety of other metrics.

Generally speaking the more evades, blocks, and blinds you have, the more damage you can mitigate, the smaller the window your opponent will have to interact with you by dealing damage or landing CC. Likewise, stealth prevents opponents from landing targeted damage, utilizing targeted ports (huge when disengaging from a Prev) and allows you to conceal tells for your more powerful abilities (e.g. Prime Light Beam from stealth pre-patch. Binding Shadow from stealth).

This much is true. Though, it also changes depending on how frail the class is. A sturdy class like Necro can take more hits than a frail class like ele can, so the same amount of dodges would have different levels of power.

The more mobility you have the easier it will be to prevent interactions altogether by disengaging fights that do not favor you.

You can pretty much always prevent interactions anyway though.

Now consider that thief has an abundance of blinds, mobility, stealth, evades (3 baseline as DrD plus utilities and weapon skills). Because it has these tools in its kit, most classes must accept that chasing after a thief, or trying to prevent a thief from doing it's job is a futile effort. The best you can do, shy of playing thief yourself, is try to be more useful elsewhere on the map.

This is where the logic falls apart. Thief has
below
average number of evades. They have the same as everyone else, then 1 extra per fight from DD, and 1 on a 50 second cooldown. Compared to other classes that can have multiple evades within 10 seconds ontop of the baseline 2, thats pretty bad. Blind is, likewise, fairly limited, and much lower value than evades. Stealth is just outright worthless for avoiding damage in-combat, since the 1.25 seconds of free hits you give your enemy already outshadow any damage you might prevent, ontop of the fact that stealth, against good players, doesn't even tend to prevent much damage anyway, means that there is no reason to use it in combat unless you want to die.

Now the part you got right is that its pointless to chase after a thief. To compensate for the fact that thief can
never
under any circumstances win an even fight, they have the tools to run away. They kinda need them, mobility is the only reason thief is viable. If their mobility was merely on par with, say, Ranger, Warrior or Revenant, Thief would be a universally troll-tier pick worth reporting for.

In spite of all of this, I still think that thief should be buffed. The reason is that thief's un-interactivity is a double edged sword. Being difficult to interact with is theif's strength, and they are encouraged to play to that strength. However, when a thief does choose to interact with other classes, they are among the weakest at accomplishing that goal, at least according to thief mains. I'm sure you've heard the complaints "Thief cannot 1v1. Thief is useless in teamfights. Thief +1s aren't 2v1's they're 1.5v1's" ect.

Not just amongst the weakest, they're
the
weakest. And yes, that part is accurate. Its why thief is the only entirely unplayable class in 2v2 and 3v3.

When I say "Make thief more interactable" it goes both ways. Broaden the window for classes to punish them, give more classes ways of dealing with stealth, but also give thieves more tools to duke it out when they decide to fight rather than avoiding conflict altogether.

Giving classes ways of dealing with stealth is genuinely pointless because stealth in combat is already terrible. And if you have melee attacks, channeled attacks, AoE attacks, burst attacks or CC, you already have ways (And the only class that has none of these is pretty much Deadeye). The only possible solution is to reduce thieves mobility to average, then give them
massive
buffs to both damage and survivability.

I missed you dude...I remember 4 months ago , saying that stealth wasnt the problem in WvW , but instead they should had nerfed sb5 .

Oh great, the clueless guy is back. No wonder with equally wrong takes.

But they cant nerf it , because it had become hard intergrated part into the game .And now in this thread you are saying they they changed , because they did a failed expiriment and their ego wont allow them to change it back :(.

What are you talking about? SB5 nerf absolutely worked, most of the top tier teams have dropped thief now. Its also terrible at suriving now.

So what now ?What will you sucrifice next , for the stealth ?The dodge of Dredevil trait should not get out or Immobilize ?The 30% damage reduction from the Daredevil traitline ?Shadow Shot' Blind should be like the
in duration (from 5 >1,5 + no longer Unblockable) ?

Shadowstep should not have 2 parts , where you can escape more easily ?

No one is sacrificing
anything
for stealth. They're sacrificing it for
mobility
. And now that mobility is lessened, its time they get things back. Or revert SB5 if they don't want to give thief things back.

Lets recap , our old conversation :a)BalackPowder +Heartseekr , you gain stealth when you jump , not when it ends ... you can see videos on Youtube , that the enemy thief gains stealth when he Heartseeker >jumps animation ...and not near your feet .

A statement you made repeatedly. A statement I proved
multiple
times to be completely wrong. You gain stealth at the end of the animation, after 1.25 seconds, end of story.

a.k.a 0,65 sec ...While the Black Powder has no casting animations , you dont know what the Thief is going to do and prevent him , when he starfing-circiling around you .

It literally has a 0.5 cast time and a clear animation. I know complaining about thief while knowing literally
nothing
about it is your calling card, but come on.

When the Powder it complete , its already too late and reduced the 0,5 sec counterplay and living him 0,15 sec to react .....which in videos games the TOP END reaction is more than 0,215 :P

Still wrong.

b) Combat stealth is extramly useful , just see the Guardians Stealth Runes Traps which people are using lately ...where people whined that they gave him trementous boost in survibility :PIt has the samedelay , before he goes in stealth .(
Just rename Ele Core "Summoned Weapoen" to traps and reduce their casting speed to 0...common .... + their aoes , becomes movable like the gyros and gain increase effect , if they step in other player-friends fields
.....)

For the first time in a very,
very
long time, you said something thats not completely wrong. Its uh, still
almost
completely wrong. What people complain about with Guardians getting traps is that its a class that isnt balanced around stealth getting it. They don't have to do anything special to access stealth, they do so by using the tools they use anyway. They can use stealth to cover up high cast times (Which thief can't because the only one it has, Death's Judgement, has a baked-in reveal). And they have passive Aegis. That is why it is strong on Guardian, not on thief. Because Guardian gets extra upsides, but none of the downsides.

c) If you believe that some1 with use 100-nades , in the location you will land while stealthing > use the Shadowstep mid-air ....it has the"Return" part that last for 15 sec ...if a second 100-nade from a different Enginner is incomeing to your new location .

This is not a sentence.

d) If people are gonna use attacks that track you (Rangers Longbow , Necro-Axe) , while you stealtt....it means they wont use it in the duel ...while they wait for you to stealth ...which if you dont , they wont use them >they will do less damage >which means you dont have to stealth

You clearly never played thief. I mean, duh, obviously you never played thief, else you'd know something about it, but this makes it even more painfully clear. A, they can easily kill you without those skills. Their damage is higher than yours either way. B, if they use them, you need to get out somehow, and according to you stealth is the best at that, but completely fails.

e) Blind is useless ? What was the trait from Enginner ,that offer Blind when he dodge and people whined about it and got nerfed ? TWICE ..the Blind part ....ah here it is :
..and its from offensive tree , with 0 survibility , while other classes has in passivly n their weapon attacks:)

Blind is good when its free and fast. Thieves blinds are neither of those things. They tend to not be great.

Lets again , have a healthy-not-cercular-copy-paste-conversation , while i try to sort by my 18 terra animes... so boring task..

There is no way to have any conversation worth having with you. You are proudly,
gleefully
ignorant, and refuse to ever accept that you're wrong. All I can do is repeat the fact that you are wrong, don't know anything about thief, and frankly should never talk about thief until you learn anything.

I didnt ever call you clueless , you pain my old heart :(You really think that you get stealth after 1,25 sec , which you are wrong, you get it at the start of heartseeker animationYou think you are locked and you can do anything , in that 1,25 sec > You can switch weapon to end prematurly the animation to reduce some mini yards and not be the middlelanding position of the 100-nada , or use Shadowstep , or Steal, to avoind 100-nadaWhen you have , to choose an offensive tree ,to get blinds + damage are not free . Lets reduce the blinds duration to 0,5 + the damage from the Shadow Shot + reduce the ini cost to 1 and increase all of them by equiping Acro trait line .People should thank you for nerfing Sb5 , you where themost talkative player going thread to thread , telling that the problem was sb5, instead of stealth and they wouldnt nerf any1 of them ...you wanted to divert other people opinio and backfired :P . (
they will never bring back old Flamethrower 3 to use it over fence, i guarantee it
)Stealth ,gavea tremendous boost in Guardian suvibility , so in combat stealth is useless , is also wrong . If the "pull" is your personal problem, then code it like the DJ and reduce its cd from 40>0 each time he succefully stealths ..still traps will have a cd...and you can freecap the base ...or better yet....go and activates /dodge the traps yourself

"There is no way to have any conversation worth having with you. You are proudly, gleefully ignorant, and refuse to ever accept that you're wrong. All I can do is repeat the fact that you are wrong, don't know anything about thief, and frankly should never talk about thief until you learn anything."(
If we are having conversation , then you wouldnt have time to cheat me with a newcomer in the forums!
)

I read first few sentences of ur post so not commenting on such and also didn't read most of the above posts either but that said u are incorrect about stealth initiating on start of heartseekers animation, the skill was designed to give stealth at the piont of contact so when used on a enemy u still get both the damage and the stealth. If u watch a thief doing the combo he'll leap in the air and as they reach the point they are decending stealth is initiated, not at the start of the animation. I do not honestly know the exact time though so can't attest to the 1.25 cast time.

I am trying to imitate him :PIf i told him to be "good boy" and not harm others , he would ignore me :(There's a line , protecting your class and another going circles so the victim avoids the forums/future whinning

!

8:21 , 9:05
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