EoD expansion should have new RAID

[Captain Kuro.8937]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:And if some people didn't witchunt casuals (stop whining about KP) . And insteads tell the company to release an easy mode , we wouldnt have this conversation . With the 3 of you

Fractals have an easy mode, they have an even lower release cadence than Raids. So this argumentation of yours about an easy mode doesn't really hold.

Where is the stats ? The majority of the players are in Tier1 and in Tier3 .

No, they are not. Not by a long shot. Not since for ages.

That's your personal subjective perception of the content which you likely lack a lot of play time in. The vast majority of players are in T4 (not CMs, but definitely T4).

Nothing in any visible metric or interaction we have in game would ever suggest anything opposite.

The majority are doing Tier 3 in a more relaxed environment . They gain the chest from T1-2

T3 is widely considered the most toxic environment of fractals. Not only that but it is also considered harder than T4 because the average skill level of players in T4 is far higher than the difficulty gap increase.

Also the argument you get previous chests makes no sense. Doing T4 rewards you with T1-3 chests as well.

There is absolutely 0 argument here. You are plain wrong. The activity in the fractal T4 LFG dwarfs all other 3 tiers by a large margin, is active even during hours where other other LFGs see far less activity. What you are saying is plain and simple not true.

The majority are doing the tier 3 , just like myself .It doesn't worth it to spent extra gold for AR , in a envoriment that can 1shot you , while they make -20% less , but more casually .Plus you dont have any1 breathing your neck with : "omg after 9 years and multiply guides we published , why people are doing less than 8k , and they call us toxic "

Ironically T3 is fairly widely known as the place with the least amount of players and where the most incapable but toxic players reside (a fairly common combination of people projecting their own shortcomings onto others), to a point where it's frequently recommended to skip completely from T2 to the more populated and healthy T4.

The amount of players likely goes from T4>T1>T2>T3, something generally reflected by the amount of groups in LFG at most times.

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:Whoever want to flex their character , they will link their account to their site . Whoever don't , they won't .

Also fyi, GW2efficiency isn't a hardcore Raider or Fractal tool (or to show off), but most useful and commonly used for crafting aids and overview for completionists. Making that more.. efficient.

People can use

https://gw2crafts.net/weaponcraft_fast.html

,if they want easy step by step craft guide , they don't have to list themselves in a site and then get the results .

That's for leveling crafting. Not specific item crafting.... Dear god.

Theres wiki ? Duffy ?

[Cyninja.2954]

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:And if some people didn't witchunt casuals (stop whining about KP) . And insteads tell the company to release an easy mode , we wouldnt have this conversation . With the 3 of you

Fractals have an easy mode, they have an even lower release cadence than Raids. So this argumentation of yours about an easy mode doesn't really hold.

Where is the stats ? The majority of the players are in Tier1 and in Tier3 .

No, they are not. Not by a long shot. Not since for ages.

That's your personal subjective perception of the content which you likely lack a lot of play time in. The vast majority of players are in T4 (not CMs, but definitely T4).

Nothing in any visible metric or interaction we have in game would ever suggest anything opposite.

The majority are doing Tier 3 in a more relaxed environment . They gain the chest from T1-2

T3 is widely considered the most toxic environment of fractals. Not only that but it is also considered harder than T4 because the average skill level of players in T4 is far higher than the difficulty gap increase.

Also the argument you get previous chests makes no sense. Doing T4 rewards you with T1-3 chests as well.

There is absolutely 0 argument here. You are plain wrong. The activity in the fractal T4 LFG dwarfs all other 3 tiers by a large margin, is active even during hours where other other LFGs see far less activity. What you are saying is plain and simple not true.

The majority are doing the tier 3 , just like myself .It doesn't worth it to spent extra gold for AR , in a envoriment that can 1shot you , while they make -20% less , but more casually .Plus you dont have any1 breathing your neck with : "omg after 9 years and multiply guides we published , why people are doing less than 8k , and they call us toxic "

Ironically T3 is fairly widely known as the place with the least amount of players and where the most incapable but toxic players reside (a fairly common combination of people projecting their own shortcomings onto others), to a point where it's frequently recommended to skip completely from T2 to the more populated and healthy T4.

The amount of players likely goes from T4>T1>T2>T3, something generally reflected by the amount of groups in LFG at most times.

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:Whoever want to flex their character , they will link their account to their site . Whoever don't , they won't .

Also fyi, GW2efficiency isn't a hardcore Raider or Fractal tool (or to show off), but most useful and commonly used for crafting aids and overview for completionists. Making that more.. efficient.

People can use

https://gw2crafts.net/weaponcraft_fast.html

,if they want easy step by step craft guide , they don't have to list themselves in a site and then get the results .

That's for leveling crafting. Not specific item crafting.... Dear god.

Theres wiki ? Duffy ?

or you use gw2efficiency which can take into account EVERYTHING you already have and give you an exact break down of what is missing and how expensive it is from the TP or crafting. Which most people do.

You know, in case you are working with items worth more than 2 gold. Say legendary items, ascended, entire sets, etc.

[Captain Kuro.8937]

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:And if some people didn't witchunt casuals (stop whining about KP) . And insteads tell the company to release an easy mode , we wouldnt have this conversation . With the 3 of you

Fractals have an easy mode, they have an even lower release cadence than Raids. So this argumentation of yours about an easy mode doesn't really hold.

Where is the stats ? The majority of the players are in Tier1 and in Tier3 .

No, they are not. Not by a long shot. Not since for ages.

That's your personal subjective perception of the content which you likely lack a lot of play time in. The vast majority of players are in T4 (not CMs, but definitely T4).

Nothing in any visible metric or interaction we have in game would ever suggest anything opposite.

The majority are doing Tier 3 in a more relaxed environment . They gain the chest from T1-2

T3 is widely considered the most toxic environment of fractals. Not only that but it is also considered harder than T4 because the average skill level of players in T4 is far higher than the difficulty gap increase.

Also the argument you get previous chests makes no sense. Doing T4 rewards you with T1-3 chests as well.

There is absolutely 0 argument here. You are plain wrong. The activity in the fractal T4 LFG dwarfs all other 3 tiers by a large margin, is active even during hours where other other LFGs see far less activity. What you are saying is plain and simple not true.

The majority are doing the tier 3 , just like myself .It doesn't worth it to spent extra gold for AR , in a envoriment that can 1shot you , while they make -20% less , but more casually .Plus you dont have any1 breathing your neck with : "omg after 9 years and multiply guides we published , why people are doing less than 8k , and they call us toxic "

Ironically T3 is fairly widely known as the place with the least amount of players and where the most incapable but toxic players reside (a fairly common combination of people projecting their own shortcomings onto others), to a point where it's frequently recommended to skip completely from T2 to the more populated and healthy T4.

The amount of players likely goes from T4>T1>T2>T3, something generally reflected by the amount of groups in LFG at most times.

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:Whoever want to flex their character , they will link their account to their site . Whoever don't , they won't .

Also fyi, GW2efficiency isn't a hardcore Raider or Fractal tool (or to show off), but most useful and commonly used for crafting aids and overview for completionists. Making that more.. efficient.

People can use

https://gw2crafts.net/weaponcraft_fast.html

,if they want easy step by step craft guide , they don't have to list themselves in a site and then get the results .

That's for leveling crafting. Not specific item crafting.... Dear god.

Theres wiki ? Duffy ?

or you use gw2efficiency which can take into account EVERYTHING you already have and give you an exact break down of what is missing and how expensive it is from the TP or crafting. Which most people do.

You know, in case you are working with items worth more than 2 gold. Say legendary items, ascended, entire sets, etc.

And the majority simply , type in Google for any kind of information .

[Cyninja.2954]

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:And if some people didn't witchunt casuals (stop whining about KP) . And insteads tell the company to release an easy mode , we wouldnt have this conversation . With the 3 of you

Fractals have an easy mode, they have an even lower release cadence than Raids. So this argumentation of yours about an easy mode doesn't really hold.

Where is the stats ? The majority of the players are in Tier1 and in Tier3 .

No, they are not. Not by a long shot. Not since for ages.

That's your personal subjective perception of the content which you likely lack a lot of play time in. The vast majority of players are in T4 (not CMs, but definitely T4).

Nothing in any visible metric or interaction we have in game would ever suggest anything opposite.

The majority are doing Tier 3 in a more relaxed environment . They gain the chest from T1-2

T3 is widely considered the most toxic environment of fractals. Not only that but it is also considered harder than T4 because the average skill level of players in T4 is far higher than the difficulty gap increase.

Also the argument you get previous chests makes no sense. Doing T4 rewards you with T1-3 chests as well.

There is absolutely 0 argument here. You are plain wrong. The activity in the fractal T4 LFG dwarfs all other 3 tiers by a large margin, is active even during hours where other other LFGs see far less activity. What you are saying is plain and simple not true.

The majority are doing the tier 3 , just like myself .It doesn't worth it to spent extra gold for AR , in a envoriment that can 1shot you , while they make -20% less , but more casually .Plus you dont have any1 breathing your neck with : "omg after 9 years and multiply guides we published , why people are doing less than 8k , and they call us toxic "

Ironically T3 is fairly widely known as the place with the least amount of players and where the most incapable but toxic players reside (a fairly common combination of people projecting their own shortcomings onto others), to a point where it's frequently recommended to skip completely from T2 to the more populated and healthy T4.

The amount of players likely goes from T4>T1>T2>T3, something generally reflected by the amount of groups in LFG at most times.

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:Whoever want to flex their character , they will link their account to their site . Whoever don't , they won't .

Also fyi, GW2efficiency isn't a hardcore Raider or Fractal tool (or to show off), but most useful and commonly used for crafting aids and overview for completionists. Making that more.. efficient.

People can use

https://gw2crafts.net/weaponcraft_fast.html

,if they want easy step by step craft guide , they don't have to list themselves in a site and then get the results .

That's for leveling crafting. Not specific item crafting.... Dear god.

Theres wiki ? Duffy ?

or you use gw2efficiency which can take into account EVERYTHING you already have and give you an exact break down of what is missing and how expensive it is from the TP or crafting. Which most people do.

You know, in case you are working with items worth more than 2 gold. Say legendary items, ascended, entire sets, etc.

And the majority simply , type in Google for any kind of information .

Sure they do. Just like the majority are playing T3 fractals. I love your scientific approach and obliviousness to how more organized others players are.

[Vayne.8563]

@Asum.4960 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:I don't believe the core game wasn't good enough to convert players. In, fact, I feel like in many ways the core game is worse now than it was. Heart of THorns launched in 2015, new expansion, first expansion everyone was excited. It was a big deal. Announced at a big con. But 2016 dropped below 2014, before HoT launched. The core game was more successful. It had more casual players. I agree with your numbers, but your way of interpreting those numbers isn't better than my way. The truth is no one will ever really know, but if HoT and raids were a strong release, you wouldn't see the year before the expansion launched being much stronger than the year after it launched, particularly because it launched near the end of the year.

Didn't you just bring up the massive 9 month content drought that followed up HoT, consisting of most of 2016, explaining that drop?Player's left because there wasn't any content for the game for almost a year, except for the already largely preproduced 3 Raid Wings.Nobody is saying Raids can single handedly carry GW2, as if we needed proof of that, but 2016's revenue was it.

Similarly though, we know just LW/OW content can't carry GW2 alone either, which despite of constant content releases directly following PoF as well as a drastically more aggressive Gemstore monetization with Mount skins, Skin Gambling, "Templates", etc. dropped off even much harder, as people realised that's all they were going to get after a year of waiting for more and more frequent substantial content, 2019 in turn was proof of that.

If the year of constant and timely LW releases provided 25% less revenue than the year of the massive content drought with no content whatsoever except a few Raids, despite vastly more monetization, something doesn't quite work about your conclusion that HoT, which has both held up better and is and has been universally more favoured across the GW2 community - not just Raiders, was the problem.

It's almost like MMO's need a variety of content and communities, as that is precisely their strength over more focused, smaller games. The fact that they provide a platform to unify a great amount of different players, offering vast amounts of opportunities to go for in a shared world and progression.Something which has been my entire point, and case for having content like Raids, Fractals, Guild Missions, WvW still supported, along with OW, this entire time.

It wasn't a drought if you were a raider or a PvPer. It was a draught for everyone who wasn't. Raids are a niche activity in this game. The game wasn't initally advertised with raids. they were added as an afterthought and business didn't improve after they were added. The hard core nature of HoT did drive people away. In the old forums, before Anet redid them one of the oldest, longest threads that went on for ages for hundreds of pages was how this game was no longer for casuals. Raids didn't do that. Raids added to the perceived affect and you know, perception are the reality for different groups of people.

The hard core we need more challenging content is what hurt the game. Raids isn't that. It's one symptom of that. Saying we need this in the new expansion because of we don't have it the game will do worse doesn't make much sense because the vast majority of the players of this game are mostly casual. In fact, the new meta achievements and stuff in the zones are still driving casuals away.

I don't think Anet knew which side it's bread was buttered on at the time HoT came out. They tried the hard core path, it didn't work and now they're trying to thread a needle and no one is really happy. Or feewer people anyway.

[Vayne.8563]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:I don't believe the core game wasn't good enough to convert players. In, fact, I feel like in many ways the core game is worse now than it was. Heart of THorns launched in 2015, new expansion, first expansion everyone was excited. It was a big deal. Announced at a big con. But 2016 dropped below 2014, before HoT launched. The core game was more successful. It had more casual players. I agree with your numbers, but your way of interpreting those numbers isn't better than my way. The truth is no one will ever really know, but if HoT and raids were a strong release, you wouldn't see the year before the expansion launched being much stronger than the year after it launched, particularly because it launched near the end of the year.

Didn't you just bring up the massive 9 month content drought that followed up HoT, consisting of most of 2016, explaining that drop?Player's left because there wasn't any content for the game for almost a year, except for the already largely preproduced 3 Raid Wings.Nobody is saying Raids can single handedly carry GW2, as if we needed proof of that, but 2016's revenue was it.

But in that Wing 1-3 era , we saw the lowest revenue drop of the history of the game .

So you are going to just ignore the massively detrimental 9 month content drought in which those 3 Wings happened to come out, having already largely been preproduced with HoT, just to make your point that they were, somehow, the cause of the drop (which was neither the biggest, nor barely bigger than the drop we had with constant LW releases)?

The amount of mental gymnastics, selective ignorance, making up sci-fi data collection methods all while ignoring, or depriving context of, real data that we have to justify this inexplicable hate against any and all content that as tiny exception in this game doesn't appeal to you, while arguably worse competitor products thrive with it in the same market, is truly something to behold.

What has to do the 9 months . When the Wing 3 has ended we saw a tremendous downfall ?Yes ...i am the ignorant

So you see no correlation between the game receiving no broadly appealing (or other niche) content whatsoever for 9 whole months and a significant revenue drop, but propose that people just packed up and left because a 3rd Raid Wing happened to be added to the game around that time?

That's what you are going with, really?

I am sorry ,the only think i see that the same month that Wing 3 was released , we saw the lowest amount of revenue of the game .It seems ,like hardcore stuff was not pleasing to the majority of the community as some person i am responding to is saying otherwise .And i have a Oracle before me , saying that the revenu drop , was because of the "Future" 9 month content drop that was going to happen AFTER the q2 2016

Again ...i am the ignorantIt might be , because i lack KP/LI

Well, this might be embarrassing, but Wing 3 (and the Q2 '16 revenue drop) was 8 months into the content drought, a month after which, on July 26, 2016, LW with Out of the Shadows started back up again (which btw, didn't recover revenue either).

No oracle needed.

Of course it didn't recover revenue. Many of the casuals had left. It wasn't going to recover so easily because raiding being so prevalant along with PvP drove casuals from the game. Casuals find other stuff to do. That's what some people in my guild did. They weren't sitting there hanging on every day to what might come out in three or four months time. They simply left. They were driven away by harder core content and raids.

Why do I say raids were so instrumental in driving them away? For during most of those 9 months there were two text times in the top right of our screen that could not be removed. One would tell us about the new raid we weren't going to play and stayed there. One told us about the new PvP season we weren't going to play and stayed there. 9 months of this being rubbed in my casual face and yeah, I stayed, but it annoyed the hell out of me.

There should have been a way to turn that text off but their wasn't.

[yukarishura.4790]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Obtena.7952

GW2 had no problems for the first three years when it didn't have raids and it hasn't died in the last two years since we stopped getting more.

Nothing to do with raids, GW2 had no problems in the first three years because it was a new game that sparked interest,

No no, your claim is that the game needs new raids ... but it doesn't because for the

majority

of the time this game has existed, it hasn't had new raids and it's still being developed. I would actually be inclined to agree with the statement we need raids if the revenue charts have large increases during the time new raids were being released in the game ... except they don't. In fact, if you look at the charts and say "when were new raids being released" ... anyone would have a VERY difficult time identifying that time period based on the data alone.

Stop twisting the argument with the first years when the game was slow-paced ...

Except that's not twisting the argument ... that's the POINT. The game has an established playerbase BECAUSE of what it was when it was released, not because of content released 3 years in like raids. Raids CAN'T be successful because it doesn't entice that playerbase to engage in it. Anet needs to learn that the content they develop needs to address the desires of the playerbase their game caters to and entice those people to spend money if they want to be successful.

yes the game needs new raids, together with all sorts of new content, a game that only provides one type of content,atm skins and some story, is practically a dead game, this is why this thread exists, the expansion needs to provide more diverse content. PERIOD. Look at other succcessful games and u will see what I mean

[yukarishura.4790]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:@"Obtena.7952"

GW2 had no problems for the first three years when it didn't have raids and it hasn't died in the last two years since we stopped getting more.

Nothing to do with raids, GW2 had no problems in the first three years because it was a new game that sparked interest

Um GW2 had "no problems" in the first 2 quarters would be more accurate, not 3 years. And even that is very far streched. You are probably a much newer arrival to the game but let me tell you that the first signs of "trouble" for the game appeared as early as November 2012, which the developers responded to, by adding Ascended equipment (at the time Rings from Fractals). The reasoning was that players were leaving the game in giant numbers because they had nothing to do.

To get an idea of how bad the situation was, World Bosses and Champions were left alone because those extra shinny chests you get from killing bosses and the extra champion loot bags did not exist until August 2013. The novelty of the event system and exploration wore off, as it's amazing the first time, but after a few repetitions it loses it's charm. Following a (I admit GREAT) event chain in Snowden Drifts for over 20 minutes feels great while immersed in the story, but once finished you realize you earned less than 1 gold and 500 karma.

As early as November 2012, before the game closed 3 months alive, it had its very first mass crisis. And it wouldn't be the only one. As the revenue reports show, the drop between 2013 and 2014 was larger than the one between 2015 and 2016.

well exactly, which means "the game was doing great without raids" argument of @Vayne.8563 is baseless. I thought the game was doing good too in the first year but not because of the so called lack of raids but due to guild wars 1 fanbase, but yeah you pointed out quite some troubles there as well

[Vayne.8563]

Okay a lot has been said in this thread about raids being required for the long term health of this game. I don't agree with that statement and never will. What we'll never really know is how this game would have progressed if Anet had ramped up the difficulty of stuff more slowly and didn't just make the jump from Silverwastes to Verdant Brink and HoT. And it was a big jump in difficulty.

Guys like me who did Fractals and dungeons weren't particularly phased by it. In fact, I loved the HoT open world enough that I was able to basically ignore raids. Unfortunately I was the exception in my guild.

This game suffered from not having a decent ramp to harder content. The core world was laughably easy and even Season 1 wasn't really that hard. Stuff like dungeons and fractals weren't required, except for the last mission in the personal story which people complained about.

Once those casuals saw they'd bought an expansion they really couldn't play they felt cheated and walked away. This was my game, this is no longer my game. It's probably best to blame the lack of a ramp than raids or anything else.

After that drop, the game never really recovered, because it never really got that casual again and it couldn't. You can't undo certain things. I don't believe having a raid in the new expansion would actively hurt the expansion at this point. But I do think that it has the potential to if Anet doesn't have the capacity to produce casual and hard core content at the same time. I still think there are far more casuals here, even if the definition of what is a casual has changed somewhat. That is, today's casuals are more used to some slightly harder content, we have tables to break bars and elite specs and that sort of thing.

But do i think the game needs a raids to suceed? Not even a little.

[Linken.6345]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I don't believe the core game wasn't good enough to convert players. In, fact, I feel like in many ways the core game is worse now than it was. Heart of THorns launched in 2015, new expansion, first expansion everyone was excited. It was a big deal. Announced at a big con. But 2016 dropped below 2014, before HoT launched. The core game was more successful. It had more casual players. I agree with your numbers, but your way of interpreting those numbers isn't better than my way. The truth is no one will ever really know, but if HoT and raids were a strong release, you wouldn't see the year before the expansion launched being much stronger than the year after it launched, particularly because it launched near the end of the year.

Didn't you just bring up the massive 9 month content drought that followed up HoT, consisting of most of 2016, explaining that drop?Player's left because there wasn't any content for the game for almost a year, except for the already largely preproduced 3 Raid Wings.Nobody is saying Raids can single handedly carry GW2, as if we needed proof of that, but 2016's revenue was it.

Similarly though, we know just LW/OW content can't carry GW2 alone either, which despite of constant content releases directly following PoF as well as a drastically more aggressive Gemstore monetization with Mount skins, Skin Gambling, "Templates", etc. dropped off even much harder, as people realised that's all they were going to get after a year of waiting for more and more frequent substantial content, 2019 in turn was proof of that.

If the year of constant and timely LW releases provided 25% less revenue than the year of the massive content drought with no content whatsoever except a few Raids, despite vastly more monetization, something doesn't quite work about your conclusion that HoT, which has both held up better and is and has been universally more favoured across the GW2 community - not just Raiders, was the problem.

It's almost like MMO's need a variety of content and communities, as that is precisely their strength over more focused, smaller games. The fact that they provide a platform to unify a great amount of different players, offering vast amounts of opportunities to go for in a shared world and progression.Something which has been my entire point, and case for having content like Raids, Fractals, Guild Missions, WvW still supported, along with OW, this entire time.

It wasn't a drought if you were a raider or a PvPer. It was a draught for everyone who wasn't. Raids are a niche activity in this game. The game wasn't initally advertised with raids. they were added as an afterthought and business didn't improve after they were added. The hard core nature of HoT did drive people away. In the old forums, before Anet redid them one of the oldest, longest threads that went on for ages for hundreds of pages was how this game was no longer for casuals. Raids didn't do that. Raids added to the perceived affect and you know, perception are the reality for different groups of people.

The hard core we need more challenging content is what hurt the game. Raids isn't that. It's one symptom of that. Saying we need this in the new expansion because of we don't have it the game will do worse doesn't make much sense because the vast majority of the players of this game are mostly casual. In fact, the new meta achievements and stuff in the zones are still driving casuals away.

I don't think Anet knew which side it's bread was buttered on at the time HoT came out. They tried the hard core path, it didn't work and now they're trying to thread a needle and no one is really happy. Or feewer people anyway.

Yea that content draught was totaly not because Anet had to redo hot content to fit the masses, it was down to 3 largely completed raid wings that was released during it.Fun fact pvpers are the ones who got the least anmunt of coment at all during gw2 life time so bunching them up with raiders is kinda funny.Noone is saying we need only hard core content, they want that as well.Why are no resources allowed to go to harder content? ( you got regular drms and cm drms, still this chant -this to hard please nerf the challenge moteskeep croping up on the forums. )Irs already skewed something like 90-10 on the casual side of the scale.

[Vayne.8563]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I don't believe the core game wasn't good enough to convert players. In, fact, I feel like in many ways the core game is worse now than it was. Heart of THorns launched in 2015, new expansion, first expansion everyone was excited. It was a big deal. Announced at a big con. But 2016 dropped below 2014, before HoT launched. The core game was more successful. It had more casual players. I agree with your numbers, but your way of interpreting those numbers isn't better than my way. The truth is no one will ever really know, but if HoT and raids were a strong release, you wouldn't see the year before the expansion launched being much stronger than the year after it launched, particularly because it launched near the end of the year.

Didn't you just bring up the massive 9 month content drought that followed up HoT, consisting of most of 2016, explaining that drop?Player's left because there wasn't any content for the game for almost a year, except for the already largely preproduced 3 Raid Wings.Nobody is saying Raids can single handedly carry GW2, as if we needed proof of that, but 2016's revenue was it.

Similarly though, we know just LW/OW content can't carry GW2 alone either, which despite of constant content releases directly following PoF as well as a drastically more aggressive Gemstore monetization with Mount skins, Skin Gambling, "Templates", etc. dropped off even much harder, as people realised that's all they were going to get after a year of waiting for more and more frequent substantial content, 2019 in turn was proof of that.

If the year of constant and timely LW releases provided 25% less revenue than the year of the massive content drought with no content whatsoever except a few Raids, despite vastly more monetization, something doesn't quite work about your conclusion that HoT, which has both held up better and is and has been universally more favoured across the GW2 community - not just Raiders, was the problem.

It's almost like MMO's need a variety of content and communities, as that is precisely their strength over more focused, smaller games. The fact that they provide a platform to unify a great amount of different players, offering vast amounts of opportunities to go for in a shared world and progression.Something which has been my entire point, and case for having content like Raids, Fractals, Guild Missions, WvW still supported, along with OW, this entire time.

It wasn't a drought if you were a raider or a PvPer. It was a draught for everyone who wasn't. Raids are a niche activity in this game. The game wasn't initally advertised with raids. they were added as an afterthought and business didn't improve after they were added. The hard core nature of HoT did drive people away. In the old forums, before Anet redid them one of the oldest, longest threads that went on for ages for hundreds of pages was how this game was no longer for casuals. Raids didn't do that. Raids added to the perceived affect and you know, perception are the reality for different groups of people.

The hard core we need more challenging content is what hurt the game. Raids isn't that. It's one symptom of that. Saying we need this in the new expansion because of we don't have it the game will do worse doesn't make much sense because the vast majority of the players of this game are mostly casual. In fact, the new meta achievements and stuff in the zones are still driving casuals away.

I don't think Anet knew which side it's bread was buttered on at the time HoT came out. They tried the hard core path, it didn't work and now they're trying to thread a needle and no one is really happy. Or feewer people anyway.

Yea that content draught was totaly not because Anet had to redo hot content to fit the masses, it was down to 3 largely completed raid wings that was released during it.Fun fact pvpers are the ones who got the least anmunt of coment at all during gw2 life time so bunching them up with raiders is kinda funny.Noone is saying we need only hard core content, they want that as well.Why are no resources allowed to go to harder content? ( you got regular drms and cm drms, still this chant -this to hard please nerf the challenge moteskeep croping up on the forums. )Irs already skewed something like 90-10 on the casual side of the scale.

I didn't bunch PvPers with raiders. I simply stated, factually, what you could see on your screen and how it looked from a casual perspective. I'm well aware that PvP is woefully ignored and I've always said PvP and WvW should have gotten attention instead of adding raids. Those comments of mine go back for years. But from a casual point of view, what we saw for that 9 month drought was PvP season announcements and raid announcements. And they couldn't be turned off. All day every day I played with that text on the upper right hand corner of my screen, even though I was interested in neither.

[yukarishura.4790]

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:I am sorry ,the only think i see that the same month that Wing 3 was released , we saw the lowest amount of revenue of the game .

The lowest amount of revenue of the game was in Q4 2019, not when Wing 3 was released. There were no Raids in Q4 2019 at all. And nice of you to change your argument from W1-3 to just W3, I guess you understood when W1 and W2 were released.

Yeah , but no 3quarters BACK TO BACK , focusing on hardcore

Calling them releasing no content after HoT for 9 months besides a few Raid Wings that happened to be mostly done during HoT development but didn't make it time "focusing on Hardcore content" is a bit of a stretch, no?

Claiming those releases that did happen are THE reason for the revenue drop, rather than the lack of everything else, ludicrous.

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:Its like PoF , a more casual friendly did the job

Did it? Revenue, despite Mount Skins and other fairly aggressive Gemstore moves and constant LW releases, still dropped almost just as low, and even surpassed the low of the HoT drought.

Clearly the game needed (and still needs) another Expansion with a variety of content and features, not just more OW and Story as LW provides.

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:And at the end/middle of the 3rd , it didnt bring the revenue that Asum SaidIt had the opposite effects

Look, if your measure of success or failure of Raids is whether a Raid Wing singlehandedly can counter balance 8 months of zero other content for the game and maintain an expansion high in revenue, then yes, Raids will always be a "failure" by your metrics.

The problem with that is just that it's incredibly dishonest and silly to make that point.

You have 3 months content after content . With lost revenue

And if the argument was that Anet should do nothing but release a Raid Wing every 3 months and the game would be fine, you would have a point.Unfortunately, no one is making that argument.

And if some people didn't witchunt casuals (stop whining about KP) . And insteads tell the company to release an easy mode , we wouldnt have this conversation . With the 3 of you

raids are already easy, I mean...escort is so easy it doesnt belong into a raid

[yukarishura.4790]

@"Vayne.8563" said:Okay a lot has been said in this thread about raids being required for the long term health of this game. I don't agree with that statement and never will. What we'll never really know is how this game would have progressed if Anet had ramped up the difficulty of stuff more slowly and didn't just make the jump from Silverwastes to Verdant Brink and HoT. And it was a big jump in difficulty.

Guys like me who did Fractals and dungeons weren't particularly phased by it. In fact, I loved the HoT open world enough that I was able to basically ignore raids. Unfortunately I was the exception in my guild.

This game suffered from not having a decent ramp to harder content. The core world was laughably easy and even Season 1 wasn't really that hard. Stuff like dungeons and fractals weren't required, except for the last mission in the personal story which people complained about.

Once those casuals saw they'd bought an expansion they really couldn't play they felt cheated and walked away. This was my game, this is no longer my game. It's probably best to blame the lack of a ramp than raids or anything else.

After that drop, the game never really recovered, because it never really got that casual again and it couldn't. You can't undo certain things. I don't believe having a raid in the new expansion would actively hurt the expansion at this point. But I do think that it has the potential to if Anet doesn't have the capacity to produce casual and hard core content at the same time. I still think there are far more casuals here, even if the definition of what is a casual has changed somewhat. That is, today's casuals are more used to some slightly harder content, we have tables to break bars and elite specs and that sort of thing.

But do i think the game needs a raids to suceed? Not even a little.

have you even tried to get into raids and learn or do you just stop at "raids are hard, not gonna bother, bye"

[yukarishura.4790]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I don't believe the core game wasn't good enough to convert players. In, fact, I feel like in many ways the core game is worse now than it was. Heart of THorns launched in 2015, new expansion, first expansion everyone was excited. It was a big deal. Announced at a big con. But 2016 dropped below 2014, before HoT launched. The core game was more successful. It had more casual players. I agree with your numbers, but your way of interpreting those numbers isn't better than my way. The truth is no one will ever really know, but if HoT and raids were a strong release, you wouldn't see the year before the expansion launched being much stronger than the year after it launched, particularly because it launched near the end of the year.

Didn't you just bring up the massive 9 month content drought that followed up HoT, consisting of most of 2016, explaining that drop?Player's left because there wasn't any content for the game for almost a year, except for the already largely preproduced 3 Raid Wings.Nobody is saying Raids can single handedly carry GW2, as if we needed proof of that, but 2016's revenue was it.

But in that Wing 1-3 era , we saw the lowest revenue drop of the history of the game .

So you are going to just ignore the massively detrimental 9 month content drought in which those 3 Wings happened to come out, having already largely been preproduced with HoT, just to make your point that they were, somehow, the cause of the drop (which was neither the biggest, nor barely bigger than the drop we had with constant LW releases)?

The amount of mental gymnastics, selective ignorance, making up sci-fi data collection methods all while ignoring, or depriving context of, real data that we have to justify this inexplicable hate against any and all content that as tiny exception in this game doesn't appeal to you, while arguably worse competitor products thrive with it in the same market, is truly something to behold.

What has to do the 9 months . When the Wing 3 has ended we saw a tremendous downfall ?Yes ...i am the ignorant

So you see no correlation between the game receiving no broadly appealing (or other niche) content whatsoever for 9 whole months and a significant revenue drop, but propose that people just packed up and left because a 3rd Raid Wing happened to be added to the game around that time?

That's what you are going with, really?

I am sorry ,the only think i see that the same month that Wing 3 was released , we saw the lowest amount of revenue of the game .It seems ,like hardcore stuff was not pleasing to the majority of the community as some person i am responding to is saying otherwise .And i have a Oracle before me , saying that the revenu drop , was because of the "Future" 9 month content drop that was going to happen AFTER the q2 2016

Again ...i am the ignorantIt might be , because i lack KP/LI

Well, this might be embarrassing, but Wing 3 (and the Q2 '16 revenue drop) was 8 months into the content drought, a month after which, on July 26, 2016, LW with Out of the Shadows started back up again (which btw, didn't recover revenue either).

No oracle needed.

Of course it didn't recover revenue. Many of the casuals had left. It wasn't going to recover so easily because raiding being so prevalant along with PvP drove casuals from the game. Casuals find other stuff to do. That's what some people in my guild did. They weren't sitting there hanging on every day to what might come out in three or four months time. They simply left. They were driven away by harder core content and raids.

Why do I say raids were so instrumental in driving them away? For during most of those 9 months there were two text times in the top right of our screen that could not be removed. One would tell us about the new raid we weren't going to play and stayed there. One told us about the new PvP season we weren't going to play and stayed there. 9 months of this being rubbed in my casual face and yeah, I stayed, but it annoyed the hell out of me.

There should have been a way to turn that text off but their wasn't.

this sounds like a problem with you, not with the game

[Krzysztof.5973]

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:And if some people didn't witchunt casuals (stop whining about KP) . And insteads tell the company to release an easy mode , we wouldnt have this conversation . With the 3 of you

At least now we know what's your problem is with adding new raid wing (among other content) with release of EoD. Because you don't like the kp culture, nobody else can have their piece of niche content. Let's not ignore almost 100-pages long thread about easy mode for raids on this very forum. Or let's do, cause this might fit our narrative...

[Vayne.8563]

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Captain Kuro.8937 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:I don't believe the core game wasn't good enough to convert players. In, fact, I feel like in many ways the core game is worse now than it was. Heart of THorns launched in 2015, new expansion, first expansion everyone was excited. It was a big deal. Announced at a big con. But 2016 dropped below 2014, before HoT launched. The core game was more successful. It had more casual players. I agree with your numbers, but your way of interpreting those numbers isn't better than my way. The truth is no one will ever really know, but if HoT and raids were a strong release, you wouldn't see the year before the expansion launched being much stronger than the year after it launched, particularly because it launched near the end of the year.

Didn't you just bring up the massive 9 month content drought that followed up HoT, consisting of most of 2016, explaining that drop?Player's left because there wasn't any content for the game for almost a year, except for the already largely preproduced 3 Raid Wings.Nobody is saying Raids can single handedly carry GW2, as if we needed proof of that, but 2016's revenue was it.

But in that Wing 1-3 era , we saw the lowest revenue drop of the history of the game .

So you are going to just ignore the massively detrimental 9 month content drought in which those 3 Wings happened to come out, having already largely been preproduced with HoT, just to make your point that they were, somehow, the cause of the drop (which was neither the biggest, nor barely bigger than the drop we had with constant LW releases)?

The amount of mental gymnastics, selective ignorance, making up sci-fi data collection methods all while ignoring, or depriving context of, real data that we have to justify this inexplicable hate against any and all content that as tiny exception in this game doesn't appeal to you, while arguably worse competitor products thrive with it in the same market, is truly something to behold.

What has to do the 9 months . When the Wing 3 has ended we saw a tremendous downfall ?Yes ...i am the ignorant

So you see no correlation between the game receiving no broadly appealing (or other niche) content whatsoever for 9 whole months and a significant revenue drop, but propose that people just packed up and left because a 3rd Raid Wing happened to be added to the game around that time?

That's what you are going with, really?

I am sorry ,the only think i see that the same month that Wing 3 was released , we saw the lowest amount of revenue of the game .It seems ,like hardcore stuff was not pleasing to the majority of the community as some person i am responding to is saying otherwise .And i have a Oracle before me , saying that the revenu drop , was because of the "Future" 9 month content drop that was going to happen AFTER the q2 2016

Again ...i am the ignorantIt might be , because i lack KP/LI

Well, this might be embarrassing, but Wing 3 (and the Q2 '16 revenue drop) was 8 months into the content drought, a month after which, on July 26, 2016, LW with Out of the Shadows started back up again (which btw, didn't recover revenue either).

No oracle needed.

Of course it didn't recover revenue. Many of the casuals had left. It wasn't going to recover so easily because raiding being so prevalant along with PvP drove casuals from the game. Casuals find other stuff to do. That's what some people in my guild did. They weren't sitting there hanging on every day to what might come out in three or four months time. They simply left. They were driven away by harder core content and raids.

Why do I say raids were so instrumental in driving them away? For during most of those 9 months there were two text times in the top right of our screen that could not be removed. One would tell us about the new raid we weren't going to play and stayed there. One told us about the new PvP season we weren't going to play and stayed there. 9 months of this being rubbed in my casual face and yeah, I stayed, but it annoyed the hell out of me.

There should have been a way to turn that text off but their wasn't.

this sounds like a problem with you, not with the game

A problem with me? Sure. And maybe 150-200 people in my guild. And if you think we were the only ones, you'd be quite mistaken. This was an image problem for the game. You can't build a game that supports casuals and then spend 9 months showing those casuals nothing. I guess it's a problem for the game if you care when people are leaving it in droves, or playing less and less, or posting on a forum thread about how Guild Wars 2 is no longer for casuals for a year or more.

I hate to break to you but this affected a whole lot of people other than just me. Some of us did stay but we were angry and more than that, we no longer felt the game was "our" game as it had been. It had become a different game and one we weren't sure we'd continue with.

Actually I wasn't in that group anyway because I loved HoT. But a very very big percentage of my casual guild had to be coaxed, and carried and taught before they picked up HoT and many of them left, and didn't come along for the ride.

[Asum.4960]

@Vayne.8563 said:Okay a lot has been said in this thread about raids being required for the long term health of this game. I don't agree with that statement and never will.

Although you might be referring to other commentors, I want to reiterate that I never said that Raids are required for the long term health of the game, but that the game needs more community building, long term engaging as well as challenging content, on top of the current very easy OW and Story content, if it want's to attract different audiences and grow again, in order to be around to be enjoyed for years to come.

Raids are just one of the things that fit all of those things that the game is currently lacking in one neat package - but even if they develop Raids again, it can't stop just there.The game desperately needs more community building content in general, for more casual audiences as well, such as Guild Missions (which could come both in easy and hard variants, rewarding accordingly).Neglecting WvW as much as they did was imo a huge mistake as well, as it was a major flagship feature of the game that gets quoted on websites to this day, along with things like the good combat system, as one of the main selling points of the game.In a similar boat as Raids, Fractals need a lot more attention as well, providing smaller scale drop in content for those seeking a challenge.

Anything that's either any one of community building, long term engaging, challenging, or two or all of those.

I honestly think they game would have been, and to some extend still can be, in a way better place if they would slim down the 4 LW teams to 3, go from 3 months LW cadence to 4 months, taking those devs from those teams interested in creating more long form, community and hardcore content and focusing them on releasing at least Fractals, Raids and Guild Missions intermingled to the LW releases (that or hiring on more people ofc, after all they were able to keep on 140+ devs working on other unreleased projects creating 0 revenue before).

That might seem like a bad deal to some very casual players who exclusively want OW maps, and to get all the content for themselves - but I genuinely don't think the game will stick around for all that long if they keep the direction of the last 2-3 years, and that's a bad deal for everyone.

*And for the love of the 6 Anet, use the content you already have.Give players the ability to create "private" World Boss Maps, tackling amped up existing World Bosses together with their Guild.Slightly rework/tune existing interesting Story instances like Fahranur, the First City, the Fight with Balthazar, Kormir's Library and many many more and add them as semi-challenging 5 man Dungeons to be replayed with it's own currency system.Create something like GW1's Vanquishing, allowing Guild's/Squads to load into instanced versions of OW maps, slightly retooled to feature interesting and more challenging Mob packs and patrols which have to be all cleared out.And on and on.There are so many opportunities to generate longevity and to build communities and challenging experiences highlighting your incredibly combat system and forming bonds, with content and assets you largely you already have.

@Vayne.8563 said:What we'll never really know is how this game would have progressed if Anet had ramped up the difficulty of stuff more slowly and didn't just make the jump from Silverwastes to Verdant Brink and HoT. And it was a big jump in difficulty.

Guys like me who did Fractals and dungeons weren't particularly phased by it. In fact, I loved the HoT open world enough that I was able to basically ignore raids. Unfortunately I was the exception in my guild.

This game suffered from not having a decent ramp to harder content. The core world was laughably easy and even Season 1 wasn't really that hard. Stuff like dungeons and fractals weren't required, except for the last mission in the personal story which people complained about.

Once those casuals saw they'd bought an expansion they really couldn't play they felt cheated and walked away. This was my game, this is no longer my game. It's probably best to blame the lack of a ramp than raids or anything else.

I 100% agree. The lack of ramp is a huge issue of the game, leaving most players behind in proficiency.The thing is, Core wasn't designed to be this easy, nor was HoT a huge jump in difficulty - in terms of balance at their times.Core got easy due to immense powercreep, while HoT corrected that and adjusted it's difficulty to be more like how Core felt at launch (+ a bit on top for being a max level expansion experience ofc). The problem was just that by that time, a large amount of players had already gotten used to the immense power creep and being able to walk through everything without effort, or never had experienced Core as intended in the first place, making HoT seem like this massive jump in difficulty that Anet failed to bridge.

That combined with the content drought following HoT but still having some Raid releases that were partially developed with HoT coming in created a really bad perception and antagonistic mindset towards anything and anyone hardcore in the community, which greatly damaged the game for years to come - both making Anet too afraid to stick to any sort of vision or ever challenging it's players, as well as severely fracturing the community.While competitors forged ahead with a variety of content catering to a diverse audience, well overtaking GW2, Anet had no direction where to go and started investing into other properties, sidelining most of GW2, just to see those other projects eventually fail.That mismanagement cost GW2 and Anet massively, and I don't think they can get GW2 to a point where it fullfils the massive potential it once had, but I do think they can still turn it around and even grow the game again. Not with just some more Story instances and OW maps though.There has to be more. Diverse communities are what keep MMO's alive.

[Vayne.8563]

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@"Vayne.8563" said:Okay a lot has been said in this thread about raids being required for the long term health of this game. I don't agree with that statement and never will. What we'll never really know is how this game would have progressed if Anet had ramped up the difficulty of stuff more slowly and didn't just make the jump from Silverwastes to Verdant Brink and HoT. And it was a big jump in difficulty.

Guys like me who did Fractals and dungeons weren't particularly phased by it. In fact, I loved the HoT open world enough that I was able to basically ignore raids. Unfortunately I was the exception in my guild.

This game suffered from not having a decent ramp to harder content. The core world was laughably easy and even Season 1 wasn't really that hard. Stuff like dungeons and fractals weren't required, except for the last mission in the personal story which people complained about.

Once those casuals saw they'd bought an expansion they really couldn't play they felt cheated and walked away. This was my game, this is no longer my game. It's probably best to blame the lack of a ramp than raids or anything else.

After that drop, the game never really recovered, because it never really got that casual again and it couldn't. You can't undo certain things. I don't believe having a raid in the new expansion would actively hurt the expansion at this point. But I do think that it has the potential to if Anet doesn't have the capacity to produce casual and hard core content at the same time. I still think there are far more casuals here, even if the definition of what is a casual has changed somewhat. That is, today's casuals are more used to some slightly harder content, we have tables to break bars and elite specs and that sort of thing.

But do i think the game needs a raids to suceed? Not even a little.

have you even tried to get into raids and learn or do you just stop at "raids are hard, not gonna bother, bye"

I can raid. That's not really the issue. I never even said raids were hard. I don't know why you think I can't raid. I don't enjoy raiding. Raiding is exactly the kind of content I'm not interested in. It has nothing to do with ability or skill. Yes, I have tried raiding. Yes, I didn't like raiding. Not sure where your assumption comes from.

[Obtena.7952]

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@yukarishura.4790 said:

@Obtena.7952

GW2 had no problems for the first three years when it didn't have raids and it hasn't died in the last two years since we stopped getting more.

Nothing to do with raids, GW2 had no problems in the first three years because it was a new game that sparked interest,

No no, your claim is that the game needs new raids ... but it doesn't because for the

majority

of the time this game has existed, it hasn't had new raids and it's still being developed. I would actually be inclined to agree with the statement we need raids if the revenue charts have large increases during the time new raids were being released in the game ... except they don't. In fact, if you look at the charts and say "when were new raids being released" ... anyone would have a VERY difficult time identifying that time period based on the data alone.

Stop twisting the argument with the first years when the game was slow-paced ...

Except that's not twisting the argument ... that's the POINT. The game has an established playerbase BECAUSE of what it was when it was released, not because of content released 3 years in like raids. Raids CAN'T be successful because it doesn't entice that playerbase to engage in it. Anet needs to learn that the content they develop needs to address the desires of the playerbase their game caters to and entice those people to spend money if they want to be successful.

yes the game needs new raids, together with all sorts of new content, a game that only provides one type of content,atm skins and some story, is practically a dead game, this is why this thread exists, the expansion needs to provide more diverse content. PERIOD. Look at other succcessful games and u will see what I mean

No, this thread exists because YOU want a new raid; I'm certain you have no idea what the game needs other than a self-fulfilling idea that that 'need' includes raids because history shows that the game needs raids is undeniably false. Expansion can provide diverse content without having raids. Ironically, raids AREN'T what anyone should call diverse content because it serves such a small portion of the population ... so if you believe the expansion needs diverse content, raids isn't it.

have you even tried to get into raids and learn or do you just stop at "raids are hard, not gonna bother, bye"

Some of us could only be so lucky to get an opportunity to even be part of a raid that fails, let alone 'get into' raids. See, this is another example that you don't get it; it's not casual friendly content; many people can't even get into raids if they wanted to. If you want more raids, THIS problem needs to be addressed.

Diverse communities are what keep MMO's alive.

This kind of generalization is absurd. What keeps MMO's alive is that people have content they like and are willing to spend money in the game. Diversity has nothing to do with it. This isn't a biosphere.

[Krzysztof.5973]

@"Obtena.7952" saidNo, this thread exists because YOU want a new raidNo, not just HIM.

I'm certain you have no idea what the game needs other than a self-fulfilling idea that that 'need' includes raids because history shows that the game needs raids is undeniably false.Since you are so certain I'm sure there is some tangible piece of data that proves your point. You must posses statistics to back up your claims.

Ironically, raids AREN'T what anyone should call diverse content because it serves such a small portion of the population ... so if you believe the expansion needs diverse content, raids isn't it.That is what "diverse" means by definition. Because there is variety in different types of content - it creates diversity. Raids added with xpack among other things. Just because you hate raids, it doesn't somehow discredit raids from being diverse type of content.

What keeps MMO's alive is that people have content they like and are willing to spend money in the game. Diversity has nothing to do with it.Diversity has NOTHING to do with it? But everyone wants to have at least some update for content they like? Of course that's not diversity.

[Obtena.7952]

@Krzysztof.5973 said:Diversity has NOTHING to do with it? But everyone wants to have at least some update for content they like? Of course that's not diversity.

That doesn't change the fact that raids are not diverse content. If his justification to add content to EoD is diversity, raids most certainly misses that mark. Again, diversity is not what pays the bills. Delivering content that people will play and entice them to buy gems DOES. If that was raids, then why don't we have new raids now?

[Vayne.8563]

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@"Obtena.7952" saidNo, this thread exists because YOU want a new raidNo, not just

HIM

.

I'm certain you have no idea what the game needs other than a self-fulfilling idea that that 'need' includes raids because history shows that the game needs raids is undeniably false.Since you are so certain I'm sure there is some tangible piece of data that proves your point. You must posses statistics to back up your claims.

Ironically, raids AREN'T what anyone should call diverse content because it serves such a small portion of the population ... so if you believe the expansion needs diverse content, raids isn't it.That is what "diverse" means by definition. Because there is variety in different types of content - it creates diversity. Raids added with xpack among other things. Just because you hate raids, it doesn't somehow discredit raids from being diverse type of content.

What keeps MMO's alive is that people have content they like and are willing to spend money in the game. Diversity has nothing to do with it.Diversity has

NOTHING

to do with it? But everyone wants to have at least some update for content they like? Of course that's not diversity.

Actually he doesn't need statistics to back up his point. No one here knows for sure how many people raid except for Anet themselves, but Anet did say not enough people were raiding to justify a new raid at this time. That's why strike missions were introduced. To act as a sort of stepping stone to raids. I don't believe they've been successful at that, not on a wide scale, but that's Anet's reasoning.

At the end of the day none of us have to provide evidence about how popular raids are because Anet has already told us and they DO have the data. So unless you know more than the devs about how many people are raiding or whether making new raids is feasible, there's not much to discuss. We have a dev quote that says straight up that new raids aren't incoming due to lack of participation in raids.

The truth is that Anet is going to make this decision based on their data, not ours. So far, that decision says no new raids are coming at this time. Could it change with the expansion? Sure. It could. If Anet thinks it'll get the guys raiding to buy the expansion they might well include a raid.

But what then? What if the situation occurs again where not enough people are raiding. Anet is not making raids because not enough people are raiding by percentage. They're all in Drizzlewood or playing in the open world, or at world bosses or at metas. We have more metas than raids, likely because more people do them as a percentage of the playerbase. Not because of what anyone is posting on the forums.

You're right. Everyone wants content for the area of the game that they like. Back when I ran a retail store, we had mac clients who wanted me to keep a mac section of the store open. They wanted it as much as you want raids. But the truth is, the mac section wasn't profitable enough for us to keep it there for the small percentage of our consumer base who wanted it. The decision to completely shut down our mac section was a business decision based on our own internal stats. Those people were angry, some of them anyway. And they threatened to go elsewhere to shop. And we let them.

Because there was limited space in the shop and we put stuff there that had a bigger draw than mac software.

By the same token, Anet has a budget as well. A developer time budget. They are the ones that have to decide that making more raids is worth it. If they don't have the manpower or the organization to do everything (and I believe they don't) certain things will end up getting cut. They will start with the least popular things. Those that draw the least amount of people. They've already started doing that by saying it's not worth making more raids.

Your argument really isn't with me. Nothing I say would stop Anet from making raids if they thought they were profitable. And in the larger scheme of things my opinion doesn't matter. It's just one opinion, even if some people do think the way I do. What matters is the data and the only one who has that is Anet.

[Asum.4960]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:Diversity has

NOTHING

to do with it? But everyone wants to have at least some update for content they like? Of course that's not diversity.

That doesn't change the fact that raids are not diverse content. If his justification to add content to EoD is diversity, raids most certainly misses that mark.

What does that even mean? How is having x additional content, be that Raids or anything else, not more diversity than not having x additional content?At this point your dislike for Raids seems to go so far that it redefines what language means as a way to justify not having them.More content avenues means more diversity in players that will be attracted to the product as a whole, if you personally like that feature/product or not.

@Obtena.7952 said:Again, diversity is not what pays the bills. Delivering content that people will play and entice them to buy gems DOES.

And delivering different kinds of products, aka diversity, means attracting different kinds of (aka generally more) people who will play and be enticed to buy gems.

MMO's are the supermarkets of games. While they can't compete with speciality stores like Single Player RPG's when it comes to the story experience, MOBA's in terms of PvP and so on, they thrive on catering to a wide array (or diverse set) of customers. A supermarket offering one category of product isn't a good idea.

If Raids were not a good product, it be strange for them to be a staple in every, especially better performing, competitors line up.

@Obtena.7952 said:If that was raids, then why don't we have new raids now?

For the same reason we don't have updates in WvW, Guild Missions, Fractals, Strikes, Legendary Weapon Crafting, Bounties, Dungeons, Adventures, Guild Halls, and on and on and on.The game was transitioning into maintenance mode as resources were shifted to the development of other products, we know this, down to the working titles and logos of these projects by now, as well as writers who had already written the possible end of the GW2 Story. LW was simply the biggest last niche left to keep some cashflow to fund the development of those projects.That's not exactly something you want to advertise to your players though, so "it's still on the table", or "we currently just don't have the resources to justify it", sounds a lot better than that if you want to keep people spending in your current product.But since those projects were cancelled, they are now working on an Expansion as backup. The question is, are they trying to buy more time for other projects again, or are they committed to go back to GW2 - in which case they will have to support different kinds of content again.

Some people are of the opinion that that should include Raids again as well.

You doing your "HAH, but why don't we have Raids right now then if they are content people want to play" spiel for the 20th time while ignoring any and all explanation and argument isn't going to change that opinion of those people. If you are not interested in a discussion and rather just repeat the same debunked thing over and over (I think that's now the 6th time I answered this question of you in just this thread), I'm really not sure why you bother.

You know, we could have a good discussion here about what types of content to add or go back to, why Raids might or might not be a good idea, what else to go for, but unfortunately people like you just like being disruptive and entirely unproductive to such an endeavour.

For some reason you seem to just want to "win" at Raids = bad, rather than seemingly having any interest, care or understanding about the games future, game/product design, business or the industry.

[Krzysztof.5973]

@Vayne.8563 said:Actually he doesn't need statistics to back up his point.Yes, yes he has to. Just like you chose not to believe or to misinterpret actual data presented by @maddoctor.2738. @Obtena.7952's claims hold little to no value if he doesn't provide proof of his own claims and chooses to dismiss the data provided by others. Not to mention that in @Obtena.7952's world there is no correlation between content diversity - which increases engagement throughout various types of content and spending money in gemstore. How can we even begin to have a discussion in good faith with logical fallacies this bad being present.

[Obtena.7952]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:Diversity has

NOTHING

to do with it? But everyone wants to have at least some update for content they like? Of course that's not diversity.

That doesn't change the fact that raids are not diverse content. If his justification to add content to EoD is diversity, raids most certainly misses that mark.

What does that even mean?

It's means that adding niche content doesn't result in diversity in content because the idea behind diversity is that it's content for everyone, not just little bits of content here and there that appeals to little groups of players. Raids isn't diversity, it's segregation.

For the same reason we don't have updates in WvW, Guild Missions, Fractals, Strikes, Legendary Weapon Crafting, Bounties, Dungeons, Adventures, Guild Halls, and on and on and on.

No you don't know that. I know you got this narrative about some transition to some weird game status ... but you aren't going to tell me that whatever status this happens to be, Anet doesn't care about revenues and how the game generates revenues in that state. That's absurd. Put it this way ... whatever state you want to say the game is in ... it's still a business. There is NO game mode where Anet can continue to operate the game without running it as a business.