EoD expansion should have new RAID

Obtena.7952 · March 28, 2021

@Krzysztof.5973 said:
@Vayne.8563 said:Actually he doesn't need statistics to back up his point.in @Obtena.7952's world there is no correlation between content diversity - which increases engagement throughout various types of content and spending money in gemstore.

Well, that's unfair because I never claimed there is not correlation there. But it does beg the question .. if raids are so awesome at increasing diversity and doing what you say to engagement and people spending money in the gem store ... why didn't it work ? Where are all the dollars that were supposedly generated by all this diverse content and engaged people? Oh right, there wasn't any because raids AREN'T diverse content and they DON'T engage enough people to spend. They are SPECIALIZED content.

Asum.4960 · March 28, 2021

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@"Krzysztof.5973" said:Diversity has
NOTHING
to do with it? But everyone wants to have at least some update for content they like? Of course that's not diversity.

That doesn't change the fact that raids are not diverse content. If his justification to add content to EoD is diversity, raids most certainly misses that mark.

What does that even mean?

It's means that adding niche content doesn't result in diversity in content because the idea behind diversity is that it's content for everyone, not just little bits of content here and there that appeals to little groups of players. Raids isn't diversity, it's segregation.

Okay, lets go back to the supermarket example just to exemplify how ridiculous that comment is.A supermarket, according to you, doesn't have a diverse assortment unless every single product in them appeals to you/the majority of people? And adding niche products that bring more people into the store (to then largely also consume other products offered) is segregation?

You do realise how you are increasingly making less sense, right? And no offense, but your baseline was already off the charts in terms of unproductive discussion and derailing of threads. I mean at this point you are genuinely arguing against the definition and meaning of the word diversity.

Additionally, you do know that "casual" content is build up out of many different niches appealing to tiny parts of the community as well, right?From those enjoying Zerg Farm maps, those who like Metas, Achievement Hunting, Skin collecting, Crafting, Legendary Crafting, just the Story, OW Solo play, etc.Everything is a niche. The absolute majority doesn't like any one of those. Non of these provide massive, traceable, revenue on their own. Raids are just one you happen to not like.

Obtena.7952 · March 28, 2021

@"Asum.4960" said:Additionally, you do know that "casual" content is build up out of many different niches appealing to tiny parts of the community as well, right?

The difference is that all those little niches are content that most players don't have a problem engaging in. That's the connection that makes all those little niches relevant as an entire set of content that continues to be developed. Contrast that with raids ...

Maybe you think chopping everything up into niches justifies new raids in EoD. You are just talking about a different way to look at the data related to where people spend time and money in the game. Doing so doesn't make raids any more appealing to non-raiding players or to Anet to provide new ones.

The argument that raids 'increase diversity' leading to all these great things a game needs doesn't make sense. I mean, if you want to claim it, GW2 history is certainly not evidence of its validity. Quite the opposite in fact; if raids are bringing all these great things to the game ... it certainly didn't translate into big revenue gains for the years we were getting new raids.

Raids are just one you happen to not like.

No, Raids are just the one that Anet happened to stop developing. The game has nothing to do with what I want.

Linken.6345 · March 28, 2021

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Krzysztof.5973 said:
@Vayne.8563 said:Actually he doesn't need statistics to back up his point.in @Obtena.7952's world there is no correlation between content diversity - which increases engagement throughout various types of content and spending money in gemstore.

Well, that's unfair because I never claimed there is not correlation there. But it does beg the question .. if raids are so awesome at increasing diversity and doing what you say to engagement and people spending money in the gem store ... why didn't it work ? Where are all the dollars that were supposedly generated by all this diverse content and engaged people? Oh right, there wasn't any because raids AREN'T diverse content and they DON'T engage enough people to spend. They are SPECIALIZED content.

Well that wing is still making 100s of people play it every week you sure you can say the same about a 3 year old living story chapter?

Krzysztof.5973 · March 28, 2021

@Obtena.7952 said:Well, that's unfair because I never claimed there is not correlation there. But it does beg the question .. if raids are so awesome at increasing diversity and doing what you say to engagement and people spending money in the gem store ... why didn't it work ? Where are all the dollars that were supposedly generated by all this diverse content and engaged people? Oh right, there wasn't any because raids AREN'T diverse content and they DON'T engage enough people to spend. They are SPECIALIZED content.

Let me quote again in case you missed it:

@maddoctor.2738 said:It was 60 euros for Heart of Thorns but that's besides the point, you said that in the Wing 1-3 era we saw the lowest revenue drop, I showed that wasn't true. During Wing 1 and 2 releases the revenue was 4th and 6th highest. It's the mistake of trying to correlate content released with revenue.
By the way Q4 2019 had exclusively open world content, no Raids, no Fractals, no WVW, no PVP releases AT ALL. Yet it was, and still is, the worst quarter in the game's entire history.Result of no diverse content results right there.And currently, thanks to corona ANet's revenue didn't drop so horribly. With IBS disappointments and lack of diverse content, only new expansion with diverse types of content is one thing that can save them. And once again, whether you like it or not, raids add to diversity. We don't want to add raids into the game and nothing else, it's not diversity. Everyone wants piece of content for themself. ANet showed us that they are capable of releasing raids with a team of 5-10 people and assuming their company contains about 300-400 people - they are more than capable of spending resources for raids among other things.

Obtena.7952 · March 28, 2021

@Linken.6345 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Krzysztof.5973 said:
@Vayne.8563 said:Actually he doesn't need statistics to back up his point.in @Obtena.7952's world there is no correlation between content diversity - which increases engagement throughout various types of content and spending money in gemstore.

Well, that's unfair because I never claimed there is not correlation there. But it does beg the question .. if raids are so awesome at increasing diversity and doing what you say to engagement and people spending money in the gem store ... why didn't it work ? Where are all the dollars that were supposedly generated by all this diverse content and engaged people? Oh right, there wasn't any because raids AREN'T diverse content and they DON'T engage enough people to spend. They are SPECIALIZED content.

Well that wing is still making 100s of people play it every week you sure you can say the same about a 3 year old living story chapter?

OK but Anet doesn't keep the lights on just because people play content; there is more to it than that. To be honest, 100's of people doing content doesn't actually sound that significant to me. I can't tell you how many people are doing old LS content ... I can tell you I can go into old LS and expansion maps and still see people doing content in them. /shrug Maybe your ploy here is to illustrate raids are super busy and LS/expansion maps aren't? I don't see where that leads you or how you resolve that with the fact that Anet continues to deliver the content you are implying people don't care about over raids that aren't developed anymore.

Obtena.7952 · March 28, 2021

@Krzysztof.5973 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:Well, that's unfair because I never claimed there is not correlation there. But it does beg the question .. if raids are so awesome at increasing diversity and doing what you say to engagement and people spending money in the gem store ... why didn't it work ? Where are all the dollars that were supposedly generated by all this diverse content and engaged people? Oh right, there wasn't any because raids AREN'T diverse content and they DON'T engage enough people to spend. They are SPECIALIZED content.

Let me quote again in case you missed it:

@maddoctor.2738 said:It was 60 euros for Heart of Thorns but that's besides the point, you said that in the Wing 1-3 era we saw the lowest revenue drop, I showed that wasn't true. During Wing 1 and 2 releases the revenue was 4th and 6th highest. It's the mistake of trying to correlate content released with revenue.
By the way Q4 2019 had exclusively open world content, no Raids, no Fractals, no WVW, no PVP releases AT ALL. Yet it was, and still is, the worst quarter in the game's entire history.Result of no
diverse
content results right there.

That doesn't make sense. If raids are this great diversity thing that has all this positive impact in the game including revenues, where is the big increase in revenues when they were released and while we were getting new ones?

Why would cancelling raid development result in a decrease in revenues when introducing them never resulted in an increase to begin with?

Asum.4960 · March 28, 2021

@Obtena.7952 said:
@"Asum.4960" said:Additionally, you do know that "casual" content is build up out of many different niches appealing to tiny parts of the community as well, right?

The difference is that all those little niches are content that most players don't have a problem engaging in. That's the connection that makes all those little niches relevant as an entire set of content that continues to be developed. Contrast that with raids ...

The only struggle involved with Raids is finding 9 other players.If you, or any other player, decides today that they want to Raid and finds 9 other players, there is nothing preventing you from Raiding. If Raids are "segregation", so is everything else requiring other players - and if you think that way, you made a really strange choice playing a Massively Online Multiplayer game.

Unless we are talking about getting into experienced groups looking and gating for other players to speed clear for a free carry. Convincing other players to do all the work for you to their own detriment is a struggle, yes.

Obtena.7952 · March 28, 2021

@Asum.4960 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Asum.4960 said:Additionally, you do know that "casual" content is build up out of many different niches appealing to tiny parts of the community as well, right?

The difference is that all those little niches are content that most players don't have a problem engaging in. That's the connection that makes all those little niches relevant as an entire set of content that continues to be developed. Contrast that with raids ...

The only struggle involved with Raids is finding 9 other players.If you, or any other player, decides today that they want to Raid and finds 9 other players, there is nothing preventing you from Raiding. If Raids are "segregation", so is everything else requiring other players - and if you think that way, you made a really strange choice playing a Massively Online Multiplayer game.

There are lots of reasons that raids do not appeal to many of the players in this game. If you think otherwise, then you just aren't being objective. All those reasons are contribute to why we don't have raids being developed anymore. Maybe you think the people that don't engage in raids are just being picky or fussy ... OK maybe; it doesn't really matter does it? That doesn't change the fact they don't ... and likely still won't if we get more.

Again, if people want more raids, they better start being less dismissive of the issues raids pose for the people that don't like them or do them.

Asum.4960 · March 28, 2021

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Asum.4960 said:Additionally, you do know that "casual" content is build up out of many different niches appealing to tiny parts of the community as well, right?

The difference is that all those little niches are content that most players don't have a problem engaging in. That's the connection that makes all those little niches relevant as an entire set of content that continues to be developed. Contrast that with raids ...

The only struggle involved with Raids is finding 9 other players.If you, or any other player, decides today that they want to Raid and finds 9 other players, there is nothing preventing you from Raiding. If Raids are "segregation", so is everything else requiring other players - and if you think that way, you made a really strange choice playing a Massively Online Multiplayer game.

There are lots of reasons that raids do not appeal to many of the players in this game. If you think otherwise, then you just aren't being objective. All those reasons are contribute to why we don't have raids being developed anymore. Maybe you think the people that don't engage in raids are just being picky ... OK maybe. That doesn't change the fact they don't ... and likely still won't if we get more.

Okay, so we are now not talking about problems anymore, but appeal? In which case we are back to all content being little niches, all of which don't appeal to many players for lot's of reasons.

Obtena.7952 · March 28, 2021

@Asum.4960 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:
@Asum.4960 said:Additionally, you do know that "casual" content is build up out of many different niches appealing to tiny parts of the community as well, right?

The difference is that all those little niches are content that most players don't have a problem engaging in. That's the connection that makes all those little niches relevant as an entire set of content that continues to be developed. Contrast that with raids ...

The only struggle involved with Raids is finding 9 other players.If you, or any other player, decides today that they want to Raid and finds 9 other players, there is nothing preventing you from Raiding. If Raids are "segregation", so is everything else requiring other players - and if you think that way, you made a really strange choice playing a Massively Online Multiplayer game.

There are lots of reasons that raids do not appeal to many of the players in this game. If you think otherwise, then you just aren't being objective. All those reasons are contribute to why we don't have raids being developed anymore. Maybe you think the people that don't engage in raids are just being picky ... OK maybe. That doesn't change the fact they don't ... and likely still won't if we get more.

Okay, so we are now not talking about problems anymore, but appeal? In which case we are back to all content being little niches, all of which don't appeal to many players for lot's of reasons.

I don't get what you are trying to say .. when was content appealing to players NOT part of the issue related to raid development? I never claimed it wasn't and that should be abundantly clear; how much the content appeals to players is most definitely one of the variables for successful content here.

Again, the difference is that all those little niches are content that most players have little or no problem engaging in. You are dismissive of them, but there are real issues related to how easily people can engage with raids. Whether you think those reasons are valid or not, they ARE valid to the people that aren't raiding ... so maybe you shouldn't be so dismissive if you are truly interested in doing what's good for the game. What ISN'T going to be good is if raid content is going to be added without addressing that.

Krzysztof.5973 · March 28, 2021

@Obtena.7952 said:
@Krzysztof.5973 said:
@Obtena.7952 said:Well, that's unfair because I never claimed there is not correlation there. But it does beg the question .. if raids are so awesome at increasing diversity and doing what you say to engagement and people spending money in the gem store ... why didn't it work ? Where are all the dollars that were supposedly generated by all this diverse content and engaged people? Oh right, there wasn't any because raids AREN'T diverse content and they DON'T engage enough people to spend. They are SPECIALIZED content.

Let me quote again in case you missed it:

@maddoctor.2738 said:It was 60 euros for Heart of Thorns but that's besides the point, you said that in the Wing 1-3 era we saw the lowest revenue drop, I showed that wasn't true. During Wing 1 and 2 releases the revenue was 4th and 6th highest. It's the mistake of trying to correlate content released with revenue.
By the way Q4 2019 had exclusively open world content, no Raids, no Fractals, no WVW, no PVP releases AT ALL. Yet it was, and still is, the worst quarter in the game's entire history.Result of no
diverse
content results right there.

That doesn't make sense. If raids are this great diversity thing that has all this positive impact in the game including revenues, where is the big increase in revenues when they were released and while we were getting new ones?

Why would cancelling raid development result in a decrease in revenues when introducing them never resulted in an increase to begin with?

Ok, let's try with pictures.

Notice how for Q2 2016 to Q2 2017 the revenue maintains similar level. And let me quote once again:

@maddoctor.2738 said:By the way Q4 2019 had exclusively open world content, no Raids, no Fractals, no WVW, no PVP releases AT ALL. Yet it was, and still is, the worst quarter in the game's entire history.No content diversity - no way of retaining the playerbase if there is no content for them to engage with.

maddoctor.2738 · March 28, 2021

@"Vayne.8563" said:After that drop, the game never really recovered, because it never really got that casual again and it couldn't.

Are we still doing this? Blaming Raids/hardcore content and the exodus of casuals for the revenue drop? After all these pages?Oh yes Vayne, the game "never recovered" from Raids, meanwhile before HOT everything was going so well, right?

That absolutely massive drop between Q4 2012 and Q1 2013 didn't happen right? When between Q1 2013 and Q3 2013 all we got was Living World/Open World episodes, that caused a much bigger drop than Raids, or the hardcore HOT did.

Same for Q1 2014 to 1Q 2015 (Q1 2015 was the announcement of HOT btw) which led to sales, both on Q1 2015 and Q2 2015. But hey let's do it your way and blame the content.

Finally we have the curious bump in Q4 2013, where we finally got 1 new dungeon, 1 new fractal, 4 reworked fractals and mistlock instabilities. Revenue climbed right? Interesting how adding instanced content led to higher revenue at the time, while adding only open world previously led to massive losses.

See having an argument correlating the content released with revenue works both ways, you cannot cherry pick one period of the game and ignore all the others.

Edit: and let's not forget, in Q4 2012 we got a LOT of Fractals with their first release! Just look at the revenue when they launched Fractals! And compare it to the revenue afterwards when they went for Living World only!

For anyone that didn't probably get it, this is a sarcastic post, just using the argument we see around here about "raids causing a revenue drop" against itself.

yukarishura.4790 · March 28, 2021

hahaha stop discussing with @Obtena.7952 he is here to troll, he does NOT even know what diversity means

yukarishura.4790 · March 28, 2021

@Vayne.8563 said:
@yukarishura.4790 said:
@Vayne.8563 said:Okay a lot has been said in this thread about raids being required for the long term health of this game. I don't agree with that statement and never will. What we'll never really know is how this game would have progressed if Anet had ramped up the difficulty of stuff more slowly and didn't just make the jump from Silverwastes to Verdant Brink and HoT. And it was a big jump in difficulty.
Guys like me who did Fractals and dungeons weren't particularly phased by it. In fact, I loved the HoT open world enough that I was able to basically ignore raids. Unfortunately I was the exception in my guild.
This game suffered from not having a decent ramp to harder content. The core world was laughably easy and even Season 1 wasn't really that hard. Stuff like dungeons and fractals weren't required, except for the last mission in the personal story which people complained about.
Once those casuals saw they'd bought an expansion they really couldn't play they felt cheated and walked away. This was my game, this is no longer my game. It's probably best to blame the lack of a ramp than raids or anything else.
After that drop, the game never really recovered, because it never really got that casual again and it couldn't. You can't undo certain things. I don't believe having a raid in the new expansion would actively hurt the expansion at this point. But I do think that it has the potential to if Anet doesn't have the capacity to produce casual and hard core content at the same time. I still think there are far more casuals here, even if the definition of what is a casual has changed somewhat. That is, today's casuals are more used to some slightly harder content, we have tables to break bars and elite specs and that sort of thing.
But do i think the game needs a raids to suceed? Not even a little.

have you even tried to get into raids and learn or do you just stop at "raids are hard, not gonna bother, bye"

I can raid. That's not really the issue. I never even said raids were hard. I don't know why you think I can't raid. I don't enjoy raiding. Raiding is exactly the kind of content I'm not interested in. It has nothing to do with ability or skill. Yes, I have tried raiding. Yes, I didn't like raiding. Not sure where your assumption comes from.

If you can raid then why are you here to complain about raids and address yourself as the casual who got cheated on? you never said you could raid

yukarishura.4790 · March 28, 2021

@Vayne.8563 said:
@yukarishura.4790 said:
@Vayne.8563 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Captain Kuro.8937 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Captain Kuro.8937 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Captain Kuro.8937 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Vayne.8563 said:I don't believe the core game wasn't good enough to convert players. In, fact, I feel like in many ways the core game is worse now than it was. Heart of THorns launched in 2015, new expansion, first expansion everyone was excited. It was a big deal. Announced at a big con. But 2016 dropped below 2014, before HoT launched. The core game was more successful. It had more casual players. I agree with your numbers, but your way of interpreting those numbers isn't better than my way. The truth is no one will ever really know, but if HoT and raids were a strong release, you wouldn't see the year before the expansion launched being much stronger than the year after it launched, particularly because it launched near the end of the year.

Didn't you just bring up the massive 9 month content drought that followed up HoT, consisting of most of 2016, explaining that drop?Player's left because there wasn't any content for the game for almost a year, except for the already largely preproduced 3 Raid Wings.Nobody is saying Raids can single handedly carry GW2, as if we needed proof of that, but 2016's revenue was it.

But in that Wing 1-3 era , we saw the lowest revenue drop of the history of the game .

So you are going to just ignore the massively detrimental 9 month content drought in which those 3 Wings happened to come out, having already largely been preproduced with HoT, just to make your point that they were, somehow, the cause of the drop (which was neither the biggest, nor barely bigger than the drop we had with constant LW releases)?

The amount of mental gymnastics, selective ignorance, making up sci-fi data collection methods all while ignoring, or depriving context of, real data that we have to justify this inexplicable hate against any and all content that as tiny exception in this game doesn't appeal to you, while arguably worse competitor products thrive with it in the same market, is truly something to behold.

What has to do the 9 months . When the Wing 3 has ended we saw a tremendous downfall ?Yes ...i am the ignorant

So you see no correlation between the game receiving no broadly appealing (or other niche) content whatsoever for 9 whole months and a significant revenue drop, but propose that people just packed up and left because a 3rd Raid Wing happened to be added to the game around that time?

That's what you are going with, really?

I am sorry ,the only think i see that the same month that Wing 3 was released , we saw the lowest amount of revenue of the game .It seems ,like hardcore stuff was not pleasing to the majority of the community as some person i am responding to is saying otherwise .And i have a Oracle before me , saying that the revenu drop , was because of the "Future" 9 month content drop that was going to happen AFTER the q2 2016

Again ...i am the ignorantIt might be , because i lack KP/LI

Well, this might be embarrassing, but Wing 3 (and the Q2 '16 revenue drop) was 8 months into the content drought, a month after which, on July 26, 2016, LW with Out of the Shadows started back up again (which btw, didn't recover revenue either).

No oracle needed.

Of course it didn't recover revenue. Many of the casuals had left. It wasn't going to recover so easily because raiding being so prevalant along with PvP drove casuals from the game. Casuals find other stuff to do. That's what some people in my guild did. They weren't sitting there hanging on every day to what might come out in three or four months time. They simply left. They were driven away by harder core content and raids.

Why do I say raids were so instrumental in driving them away? For during most of those 9 months there were two text times in the top right of our screen that could not be removed. One would tell us about the new raid we weren't going to play and stayed there. One told us about the new PvP season we weren't going to play and stayed there. 9 months of this being rubbed in my casual face and yeah, I stayed, but it annoyed the hell out of me.

There should have been a way to turn that text off but their wasn't.

this sounds like a problem with you, not with the game

A problem with me? Sure. And maybe 150-200 people in my guild. And if you think we were the only ones, you'd be quite mistaken. This was an image problem for the game. You can't build a game that supports casuals and then spend 9 months showing those casuals nothing. I guess it's a problem for the game if you care when people are leaving it in droves, or playing less and less, or posting on a forum thread about how Guild Wars 2 is no longer for casuals for a year or more.

I hate to break to you but this affected a whole lot of people other than just me. Some of us did stay but we were angry and more than that, we no longer felt the game was "our" game as it had been. It had become a different game and one we weren't sure we'd continue with.

Actually I wasn't in that group anyway because I loved HoT. But a very very big percentage of my casual guild had to be coaxed, and carried and taught before they picked up HoT and many of them left, and didn't come along for the ride.

yes, it is a problem with YOU. quote: "or during most of those 9 months there were two text times in the top right of our screen that could not be removed. One would tell us about the new raid we weren't going to play and stayed there. One told us about the new PvP season we weren't going to play and stayed there.9 months of this being rubbed in my casual face and yeah, I stayed, but it annoyed the hell out of me." This is your choice to not even bother engaging with the content and then complain about its existence. Sure if your guild did too, then its 150+ people who feel entitled or plain lazy. It annoyed the hell out of you? Why? Clearly a problem with you if content in a game annoys you to this point tbh. Imagine getting angry they are putting content you don't want to play while you can play other things. I am playing this game since day 1, as casual as it was, things were harder back then, a leap in difficulty is necesary when the combat evolves so much as it did with elite specs, I was one of these people running dungeons and fractals all the time back in 2013. Whilst also playing LS1 and other "casual" content, which was barely there to begin with. Wvw is not casual content, dungeons and fractals were not casual back then either I think...guild wars 2 is just good at having MANY resources to use, and your claim that the game was casual is bs because it was not. It is not just a game about open world maps and meta events..and I'm pretty sure it never was meant that way else we would not have dungeons, which btw were hard at the time. Imagine completing arah.The whole Arah map is kind of a RAID tbh

Vayne.8563 · March 28, 2021

@yukarishura.4790 said:
@Vayne.8563 said:
@yukarishura.4790 said:
@Vayne.8563 said:Okay a lot has been said in this thread about raids being required for the long term health of this game. I don't agree with that statement and never will. What we'll never really know is how this game would have progressed if Anet had ramped up the difficulty of stuff more slowly and didn't just make the jump from Silverwastes to Verdant Brink and HoT. And it was a big jump in difficulty.
Guys like me who did Fractals and dungeons weren't particularly phased by it. In fact, I loved the HoT open world enough that I was able to basically ignore raids. Unfortunately I was the exception in my guild.
This game suffered from not having a decent ramp to harder content. The core world was laughably easy and even Season 1 wasn't really that hard. Stuff like dungeons and fractals weren't required, except for the last mission in the personal story which people complained about.
Once those casuals saw they'd bought an expansion they really couldn't play they felt cheated and walked away. This was my game, this is no longer my game. It's probably best to blame the lack of a ramp than raids or anything else.
After that drop, the game never really recovered, because it never really got that casual again and it couldn't. You can't undo certain things. I don't believe having a raid in the new expansion would actively hurt the expansion at this point. But I do think that it has the potential to if Anet doesn't have the capacity to produce casual and hard core content at the same time. I still think there are far more casuals here, even if the definition of what is a casual has changed somewhat. That is, today's casuals are more used to some slightly harder content, we have tables to break bars and elite specs and that sort of thing.
But do i think the game needs a raids to suceed? Not even a little.

have you even tried to get into raids and learn or do you just stop at "raids are hard, not gonna bother, bye"

I can raid. That's not really the issue. I never even said raids were hard. I don't know why you think I can't raid. I don't enjoy raiding. Raiding is exactly the kind of content I'm not interested in. It has nothing to do with ability or skill. Yes, I have tried raiding. Yes, I didn't like raiding. Not sure where your assumption comes from.

If you can raid then why are you here to complain about raids and address yourself as the casual who got cheated on? you never said you could raid

I never said I couldn't raid. My complaint about raids is my opinion that I think they are and were bad for the game. You assume this has to do with ability or inability....I'm not sure why. If I think something is bad for the game I'm going to be against it...period. And I think raids were bad for the game.

I also said that ship has sailed and you can't put the genie back in the bottle and if they introduce a new raid it probably won't make much of a difference at this point, but yeah, I think raids and harder core content, as it was introduced destroyed the potential of what this game could have actually been. Obviously I want a different game than you do, but then, you're probably not more satisfied with the game than I am.

Vayne.8563 · March 28, 2021

@yukarishura.4790 said:
@Vayne.8563 said:
@yukarishura.4790 said:
@Vayne.8563 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Captain Kuro.8937 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Captain Kuro.8937 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Captain Kuro.8937 said:
@Asum.4960 said:
@Vayne.8563 said:I don't believe the core game wasn't good enough to convert players. In, fact, I feel like in many ways the core game is worse now than it was. Heart of THorns launched in 2015, new expansion, first expansion everyone was excited. It was a big deal. Announced at a big con. But 2016 dropped below 2014, before HoT launched. The core game was more successful. It had more casual players. I agree with your numbers, but your way of interpreting those numbers isn't better than my way. The truth is no one will ever really know, but if HoT and raids were a strong release, you wouldn't see the year before the expansion launched being much stronger than the year after it launched, particularly because it launched near the end of the year.

Didn't you just bring up the massive 9 month content drought that followed up HoT, consisting of most of 2016, explaining that drop?Player's left because there wasn't any content for the game for almost a year, except for the already largely preproduced 3 Raid Wings.Nobody is saying Raids can single handedly carry GW2, as if we needed proof of that, but 2016's revenue was it.

But in that Wing 1-3 era , we saw the lowest revenue drop of the history of the game .

So you are going to just ignore the massively detrimental 9 month content drought in which those 3 Wings happened to come out, having already largely been preproduced with HoT, just to make your point that they were, somehow, the cause of the drop (which was neither the biggest, nor barely bigger than the drop we had with constant LW releases)?

The amount of mental gymnastics, selective ignorance, making up sci-fi data collection methods all while ignoring, or depriving context of, real data that we have to justify this inexplicable hate against any and all content that as tiny exception in this game doesn't appeal to you, while arguably worse competitor products thrive with it in the same market, is truly something to behold.

What has to do the 9 months . When the Wing 3 has ended we saw a tremendous downfall ?Yes ...i am the ignorant

So you see no correlation between the game receiving no broadly appealing (or other niche) content whatsoever for 9 whole months and a significant revenue drop, but propose that people just packed up and left because a 3rd Raid Wing happened to be added to the game around that time?

That's what you are going with, really?

I am sorry ,the only think i see that the same month that Wing 3 was released , we saw the lowest amount of revenue of the game .It seems ,like hardcore stuff was not pleasing to the majority of the community as some person i am responding to is saying otherwise .And i have a Oracle before me , saying that the revenu drop , was because of the "Future" 9 month content drop that was going to happen AFTER the q2 2016

Again ...i am the ignorantIt might be , because i lack KP/LI

Well, this might be embarrassing, but Wing 3 (and the Q2 '16 revenue drop) was 8 months into the content drought, a month after which, on July 26, 2016, LW with Out of the Shadows started back up again (which btw, didn't recover revenue either).

No oracle needed.

Of course it didn't recover revenue. Many of the casuals had left. It wasn't going to recover so easily because raiding being so prevalant along with PvP drove casuals from the game. Casuals find other stuff to do. That's what some people in my guild did. They weren't sitting there hanging on every day to what might come out in three or four months time. They simply left. They were driven away by harder core content and raids.

Why do I say raids were so instrumental in driving them away? For during most of those 9 months there were two text times in the top right of our screen that could not be removed. One would tell us about the new raid we weren't going to play and stayed there. One told us about the new PvP season we weren't going to play and stayed there. 9 months of this being rubbed in my casual face and yeah, I stayed, but it annoyed the hell out of me.

There should have been a way to turn that text off but their wasn't.

this sounds like a problem with you, not with the game

A problem with me? Sure. And maybe 150-200 people in my guild. And if you think we were the only ones, you'd be quite mistaken. This was an image problem for the game. You can't build a game that supports casuals and then spend 9 months showing those casuals nothing. I guess it's a problem for the game if you care when people are leaving it in droves, or playing less and less, or posting on a forum thread about how Guild Wars 2 is no longer for casuals for a year or more.

I hate to break to you but this affected a whole lot of people other than just me. Some of us did stay but we were angry and more than that, we no longer felt the game was "our" game as it had been. It had become a different game and one we weren't sure we'd continue with.

Actually I wasn't in that group anyway because I loved HoT. But a very very big percentage of my casual guild had to be coaxed, and carried and taught before they picked up HoT and many of them left, and didn't come along for the ride.

yes, it is a problem with YOU. quote: "or during most of those 9 months there were two text times in the top right of our screen that could not be removed. One would tell us about the new raid we weren't going to play and stayed there. One told us about the new PvP season we weren't going to play and stayed there.9 months of this being rubbed in my casual face and yeah, I stayed, but it annoyed the hell out of me." This is your choice to not even bother engaging with the content and then complain about its existence. Sure if your guild did too, then its 150+ people who feel entitled or plain lazy. It annoyed the hell out of you? Why? Clearly a problem with you if content in a game annoys you to this point tbh. Imagine getting angry they are putting content you don't want to play while you can play other things. I am playing this game since day 1, as casual as it was, things were harder back then, a leap in difficulty is necesary when the combat evolves so much as it did with elite specs, I was one of these people running dungeons and fractals all the time back in 2013. Whilst also playing LS1 and other "casual" content, which was barely there to begin with. Wvw is not casual content, dungeons and fractals were not casual back then either I think...guild wars 2 is just good at having MANY resources to use, and your claim that the game was casual is bs because it was not. It is not just a game about open world maps and meta events..and I'm pretty sure it never was meant that way else we would not have dungeons, which btw were hard at the time. Imagine completing arah.The whole Arah map is kind of a RAID tbh

You're assuming I never engaged in PvP. I did. I have the PvP legendary back piece. You're assuming I never tried a raid, I did, and didn't enjoy it.

Mostly though I saw what these things did to my casual guild. Not one guy or two guys or three guys but a whole lot of people who felt the game was no longer for them. That's my problem but it was their problem too. And it wasn't just my guild or people that I knew. Imagine being a guild leader and having to repeatedly justify the whole harder content thing to people who mostly just enjoyed open world core stuff. And yeah that stuff was still there, but those people paid money for an expansion they couldn't enjoy and play. How is that "my" problem. It's "a" problem.

Are you ignoring the fact that one of the longest and longest running threads on the old forums was titled "This game is no longer for casuals"? That's MY problem? Think again.

If you think people leaving the game in droves is just my problem, I'm not really sure what to tell you.

There are tons of games that have raids as their main end game content. This one was one that didn't have that. Adding it made this game somewhat more like those other games. There are a whole lot of people who burned out on raids in other games and said, never again. Not one or two. Not three or four. A whole lot of people. I've heard it over and over again. My raiding days are over.

People came to this game to get away from the holy trinity . I don't know about you but I saw a game that advertised itself where you could have 5 of any profession run a dungeon. You didn't need a healer or a tank. Raids fundamentally changed the game I bought. Unless you think I was the only person who didn't want to see the return of the trinity, again I'm not sure what to tell you. A lot of people came here to get away from just that and Anet brought it back.

And now you're telling me I should enjoy it? After I bought a game that advertised it would be different? Yeah that's not just my problem.

Vayne.8563 · March 28, 2021

@maddoctor.2738 said:
@"Vayne.8563" said:After that drop, the game never really recovered, because it never really got that casual again and it couldn't.

Are we still doing this? Blaming Raids/hardcore content and the exodus of casuals for the revenue drop? After all these pages?Oh yes Vayne, the game "never recovered" from Raids, meanwhile before HOT everything was going so well, right?

That absolutely massive drop between Q4 2012 and Q1 2013 didn't happen right? When between Q1 2013 and Q3 2013 all we got was Living World/Open World episodes, that caused a much bigger drop than Raids, or the hardcore HOT did.

Same for Q1 2014 to 1Q 2015 (Q1 2015 was the announcement of HOT btw) which led to sales, both on Q1 2015 and Q2 2015. But hey let's do it your way and blame the content.

Finally we have the curious bump in Q4 2013, where we finally got 1 new dungeon, 1 new fractal, 4 reworked fractals and mistlock instabilities. Revenue climbed right? Interesting how adding instanced content led to higher revenue at the time, while adding only open world previously led to massive losses.

See having an argument correlating the content released with revenue works both ways, you cannot cherry pick one period of the game and ignore all the others.

Edit: and let's not forget, in Q4 2012 we got a LOT of Fractals with their first release! Just look at the revenue when they launched Fractals! And compare it to the revenue afterwards when they went for Living World only!

For anyone that didn't probably get it, this is a sarcastic post, just using the argument we see around here about "raids causing a revenue drop" against itself.

But HoT was bolstered by sales of a very expansive expansion and STILL didn't come back up to what it was before HOT. Not after that month. The annual sucked because the game didn't hold people. Sure if you sell a bunch of $60 games to everyone, casual and hard core alike, you're going to see a burst. But that burst lasted a seriously short time and those people that felt ripped off left, which is why the whole next year was lower.

Where do you factor in your $60 game. Hell even POF was only half that price, so of course it was going to bring in less.

maddoctor.2738 · March 28, 2021

@Vayne.8563 said:
@maddoctor.2738 said:
@Vayne.8563 said:After that drop, the game never really recovered, because it never really got that casual again and it couldn't.