EoD expansion should have new RAID

[Juan.6124]

This whole complaining about wether raids should be in the game or not, the community being split about such ridiculous things could have been prevented if Anet had added difficulty settings, easy-normal-hard mode for raids. The game mode would have been accessible* and more accepted by a wider part of the playerbase which would have led to more support of it.

*Although raids are technically accessible by any lvl 80 character, for the average player it is nearly impossible to succeed. This comes from a combination of Anet not explaining how the game, especially gear and the combat system, works and players not wanting to put in any effort.

The current state is that Anet is basicly saying either put in the effort or stay out of raids, which is reasonable, but they are in no position to do so and in fact they would benefit by widening the audience of not only the game mode but the game as a whole. They could even use raids with difficulty settings as a selling point of it (if they ever cared to advertise their only game). Normal and challenge modes would remain untouched (although w1-3 could use cms), it's just that the easy mode could be the stepping stone into the actual raid encounters. Stepping stone into raids, sounds familiar, right?

[zealex.9410]

Why would raids take the blame for poor casual player retention during hot? If anything wouldnt the complete lack of anything else be the reason for it? Lets not pretend that all a 200 (at the time?) Studio could put out in 9 months were 3 wings... Its very clear that the studio wasnt well prepared for post hot support while the raid team on its own was pushing out content the lw teams were a mess between picking up the pace and spliting the studio between post hot and pof.

Its pmuch the same thing we are experiencing rn, the majority of game systems and content types are in maintenance and all we are getting are drms and ppl hate them. Is it drm's fault for sorry state the game is in atm? No, its because arenanet wasnt prepared for eod. Dont put the blame on content that has nothing to do with the bad state the game was/is in.

[Obtena.7952]

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Well, that's unfair because I never claimed there is not correlation there. But it does beg the question .. if raids are so awesome at increasing diversity and doing what you say to engagement and people spending money in the gem store ... why didn't it work ? Where are all the dollars that were supposedly generated by all this diverse content and engaged people? Oh right, there wasn't any because raids AREN'T diverse content and they DON'T engage enough people to spend. They are SPECIALIZED content.

Let me quote again in case you missed it:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:It was 60 euros for Heart of Thorns but that's besides the point, you said that in the Wing 1-3 era we saw the lowest revenue drop, I showed that wasn't true. During Wing 1 and 2 releases the revenue was 4th and 6th highest. It's the mistake of trying to correlate content released with revenue.

By the way Q4 2019 had exclusively open world content, no Raids, no Fractals, no WVW, no PVP releases AT ALL. Yet it was, and still is, the worst quarter in the game's entire history.Result of no

diverse

content results right there.

That doesn't make sense. If raids are this great diversity thing that has all this positive impact in the game including revenues, where is the big increase in revenues when they were released and while we were getting new ones?

Why would cancelling raid development result in a decrease in revenues when introducing them never resulted in an increase to begin with?

Ok, let's try with pictures.

Notice how for Q2 2016 to Q2 2017 the revenue maintains similar level. And let me quote once again:

What I notice is that it doesn't look like raids have a significant impact on revenues while they were being released. Perfect. That's exactly my point. If people want to argue that raids being introduced will be a great thing for diversity resulting in positive impact on things like revenue and that the opposite is also true when they are stopped, then why does the actual data from the game NOT reflect that claim? Oh right ... because it's probably not true.

[Obtena.7952]

@yukarishura.4790 said:... he does NOT even know what diversity means

I'm certain it doesn't mean release content that only a small subset of the population will engage in. Just because everyone can has access to raids does NOT mean raids are implemented so everyone can do them.

I mean, you still haven't reasonably explained how diversity is necessary or that raids achieve it anyways ... the revenue data definitely doesn't show it.Like somehow we DIDN'T have diversity for the first pile of raids that were released? it's not even true we need diversity for the game to be successful; it's just something that sounds good and vague. You just say ridiculous stuff, pretend it's true and then brush of real questions and challenges. That's not being honest.

[Krzysztof.5973]

@Obtena.7952 said:What I notice is that it doesn't look like raids have a significant impact on revenues while they were being released. Perfect. That's exactly my point. If people want to argue that raids being introduced will be a great thing for diversity resulting in positive impact on things like revenue and that the opposite is also true when they are stopped, then why does the actual data from the game NOT reflect that claim? Oh right ... because it's probably not true.

Yes, let's bend fabric of reality so your hatred for raids will have representation on the revenue. Raids keep their target audience engaged with the game for longer. While story is great it is not meant to be replayed so many times over and over every single week til the end of times. If it wasn't for diverse content (raids you love) we would have been in steady decline much earlier. Let's also make a beautiful statement that this forum loves to bring up, that raids are niche content and only small portion of the playerbase plays them. That means with each raid release the decline in revenue does not appear to be so severe. This small audience can appreciate this type of content for longer, meaning they contribute to slowing down the drop of engagement with the game. And if someone is invested in the game - they are more willing to spend money - while waiting for the next content drop. If it wasn't for covid and divine grace of mighty NCsoft allowing ANet to work on 3rd expansion, we would probably witness more of record low revenue :)

[Obtena.7952]

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:What I notice is that it doesn't look like raids have a significant impact on revenues while they were being released. Perfect. That's exactly my point. If people want to argue that raids being introduced will be a great thing for diversity resulting in positive impact on things like revenue and that the opposite is also true when they are stopped, then why does the

actual data

from the game NOT reflect that claim? Oh right ... because it's probably

not true

.

Yes, let's bend fabric of reality so your hatred for raids will have representation on the revenue. Raids keep their target audience engaged with the game for longer.

You don't know that. You don't have ANYTHING that tells you the things you are claiming are true. The only thing we have is a revenue chart that shows raids aren't significant to how that chart evolves. There is no bending the fabric of reality in that. If you need to bend the fabric of reality to make your point, then your point isn't very good to begin with now is it.

I mean, raids keep their target audience engaged longer? So what? What does that mean for revenues? You don't know ... but Anet probably does ... and the chart gives you a hint too. Again, if raids had the significant impact on the game people pretend they do, how come I don't see a spike in the revenue EVERY Quarter a raid is released that doesn't overlap with an expansion?

[Krzysztof.5973]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:What I notice is that it doesn't look like raids have a significant impact on revenues while they were being released. Perfect. That's exactly my point. If people want to argue that raids being introduced will be a great thing for diversity resulting in positive impact on things like revenue and that the opposite is also true when they are stopped, then why does the

actual data

from the game NOT reflect that claim? Oh right ... because it's probably

not true

.

Yes, let's bend fabric of reality so your hatred for raids will have representation on the revenue. Raids keep their target audience engaged with the game for longer.

You don't know that. You don't have ANYTHING that tells you the things you are claiming are true. The only thing we have is a revenue chart that shows raids aren't significant to how that chart evolves. There is no bending the fabric of reality in that.

Let me quote this the 3rd time cause you might've missed it again

@"maddoctor.2738" said:By the way Q4 2019 had exclusively open world content, no Raids, no Fractals, no WVW, no PVP releases AT ALL. Yet it was, and still is, the worst quarter in the game's entire history.Did you notice that blue-looking pillar on revenue chart with the name "4Q19"? Ah, yes - it's not my reality that is bending so my hatred for ... whatever I don't deem worthy can have manifestation.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Obtena.7952 said:Again, if raids had the significant impact on the game people pretend they do, how come I don't see a spike in the revenue EVERY Quarter a raid is released that doesn't overlap with an expansion?

Now you are simply being dishonest here. If the open world had such a significant impact on the game you pretend it to have, why did the game lose 50% of its revenue in Q1 2013? Why did the game reach the lowest point ever in Q4 2019? Why did it keep losing revenue, while having exclusively open world content, from Q1 2013 to Q3 2013. Then in Q4 2013, when we got Fractals and Dungeons it climbed, only to drop again from Q1 2014 up to Q4 2014? Seriously your argument asking why revenue wasn't going up while we were having raid releases doesn't work very well if you apply it to the rest of the game.

[Asum.4960]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Well, that's unfair because I never claimed there is not correlation there. But it does beg the question .. if raids are so awesome at increasing diversity and doing what you say to engagement and people spending money in the gem store ... why didn't it work ? Where are all the dollars that were supposedly generated by all this diverse content and engaged people? Oh right, there wasn't any because raids AREN'T diverse content and they DON'T engage enough people to spend. They are SPECIALIZED content.

Let me quote again in case you missed it:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:It was 60 euros for Heart of Thorns but that's besides the point, you said that in the Wing 1-3 era we saw the lowest revenue drop, I showed that wasn't true. During Wing 1 and 2 releases the revenue was 4th and 6th highest. It's the mistake of trying to correlate content released with revenue.

By the way Q4 2019 had exclusively open world content, no Raids, no Fractals, no WVW, no PVP releases AT ALL. Yet it was, and still is, the worst quarter in the game's entire history.Result of no

diverse

content results right there.

That doesn't make sense. If raids are this great diversity thing that has all this positive impact in the game including revenues, where is the big increase in revenues when they were released and while we were getting new ones?

Why would cancelling raid development result in a decrease in revenues when introducing them never resulted in an increase to begin with?

Ok, let's try with pictures.

Notice how for Q2 2016 to Q2 2017 the revenue maintains similar level. And let me quote once again:

What I notice is that it doesn't look like raids have a significant impact on revenues while they were being released. Perfect. That's exactly my point. If people want to argue that raids being introduced will be a great thing for diversity resulting in positive impact on things like revenue and that the opposite is also true when they are stopped, then why does the

actual data

from the game NOT reflect that claim? Oh right ... because it's probably

not true

.

It's a good thing you already established that you have no clue how to look at data, or how and what data can even be gathered, as well as how useless data is if you don't understand/deprive it of it's context. Proving both in argument and analysis that you only see what you want to see.You can trace LW releases onto those quarters and being equally clueless about data/coming in with the same bias against them, pretend to see that LW had no impact whatsoever with revenue going up and down (mostly down) regardless of LW releases.Which is vastly more damning since one niche, Raids, was produced by 5-10 people, the other one in LW, equally showing no impact whatsoever on it's quarters, by 4 fully stocked content teams with the majority of company reasources put in them.

That's not true either though, is it?

It's almost like any one of those niches of content doesn't generate large impacts on their own and a game needs a healthy variety of them so they can make an impact combined. You know, a diverse array of content and players increasing revenue, and lack of decreasing revenue?That's a big part of makes makes expansions work so well too btw, generally being a big chunk of content for many if not all the different niches of content for many people to come back to. Then depending on how many different niches can be maintained until the next one, largely determines how much revenue will maintain or drop inbetween, and if the game is overall growing or waning.

Not that anything I say matters, since I'm pretty sure not even an Anet Producer and Analyst coming out to explain their methods, findings and conclusions (as well as or maybe especially shortcomings) could convince you of anything if it didn't adhere to your already preconceived biases.

[Krzysztof.5973]

@Asum.4960 said:That's a big part of makes makes expansions work so well too btw, generally being a big chunk of content for many if not all the different niches of content for many people to come back to. Then depending on how many different niches can be maintained until the next one, largely determines how much revenue will maintain or drop inbetween, and if the game is overall growing or waning.

And that is precisely why we are getting another expansion - LW releases alone can't maintain steady revenue.

[Obtena.7952]

@Asum.4960 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Asum.4960 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Well, that's unfair because I never claimed there is not correlation there. But it does beg the question .. if raids are so awesome at increasing diversity and doing what you say to engagement and people spending money in the gem store ... why didn't it work ? Where are all the dollars that were supposedly generated by all this diverse content and engaged people? Oh right, there wasn't any because raids AREN'T diverse content and they DON'T engage enough people to spend. They are SPECIALIZED content.

Let me quote again in case you missed it:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:It was 60 euros for Heart of Thorns but that's besides the point, you said that in the Wing 1-3 era we saw the lowest revenue drop, I showed that wasn't true. During Wing 1 and 2 releases the revenue was 4th and 6th highest. It's the mistake of trying to correlate content released with revenue.

By the way Q4 2019 had exclusively open world content, no Raids, no Fractals, no WVW, no PVP releases AT ALL. Yet it was, and still is, the worst quarter in the game's entire history.Result of no

diverse

content results right there.

That doesn't make sense. If raids are this great diversity thing that has all this positive impact in the game including revenues, where is the big increase in revenues when they were released and while we were getting new ones?

Why would cancelling raid development result in a decrease in revenues when introducing them never resulted in an increase to begin with?

Ok, let's try with pictures.

Notice how for Q2 2016 to Q2 2017 the revenue maintains similar level. And let me quote once again:

What I notice is that it doesn't look like raids have a significant impact on revenues while they were being released. Perfect. That's exactly my point. If people want to argue that raids being introduced will be a great thing for diversity resulting in positive impact on things like revenue and that the opposite is also true when they are stopped, then why does the

actual data

from the game NOT reflect that claim? Oh right ... because it's probably

not true

.

It's a good thing you already established that you have no clue how to look at data, or how and what data can even be gathered, as well as how useless data is if you don't understand/deprive it of it's context. Proving both in argument and analysis that you only see what you want to see.

You know what's funny ... when OTHER people bring that data to the table, you got no problem with it because it suits your position to have it there. When I point out that data doesn't show what they what it to, I'M the one you attack for not being able to read and interpret a graph or using faulty data. Classy moves.

They tend to not wholly omit context and make childish conclusions based on the data that show a complete lack of understanding how to analyse.. anything really.

Well, that's questionable ... concluding raids are this great thing for the game resulting in more revenue seems pretty unreasonable based on that graph if you ask me. Again, if raids are such the positive impact on revenues that people want to claim, why does the revenue data not reflect raid releases and halted development? That's due to me not being able to read data from a graph? Pretty sure it's not.

[Obtena.7952]

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@"Obtena.7952" said:You know what's funny ... when OTHER people bring that data to the table, you got no problem with it because it suits your position to have it there. When I point out that data doesn't show what they what it to, I'M the one you chide for not being able to read and interpret a graph or using faulty data. Classy moves. I mean, all that you have to say ... yet you still don't have an answer as to why the data doesn't reflect raid releases and halted development.

Well... If someone can't interpret the data correctly time after time, even when called out - it does not make the data false or faulty. You might not be happy that the data supports the stance you are up against, but that is the

reality

. And if multiple people tell you that you misread the data - they might be right you know... Definition of "diversity" falls into the same category :)

Hey, I've got a really simple question: Why the revenue data not reflect raid releases and halted development? You want to claim it's this important aspect of the game that has lots of positive impact for everyone ... but the data you push in my face doesn't reflect it ... so?

[Krzysztof.5973]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:You know what's funny ... when OTHER people bring that data to the table, you got no problem with it because it suits your position to have it there. When I point out that data doesn't show what they what it to, I'M the one you chide for not being able to read and interpret a graph or using faulty data. Classy moves. I mean, all that you have to say ... yet you still don't have an answer as to why the data doesn't reflect raid releases and halted development.

Well... If someone can't interpret the data correctly time after time, even when called out - it does not make the data false or faulty. You might not be happy that the data supports the stance you are up against, but that is the

reality

. And if multiple people tell you that you misread the data - they might be right you know... Definition of "diversity" falls into the same category :)

Hey, I've got a really simple question: Why the revenue data not reflect raid releases and halted development? You want to claim it's this important aspect of the game that has lots of positive impact for everyone ... but the data you push in my face doesn't reflect it ... so?

Why, it does. It literally does. To put it simply, your inability to read it correctly and hatred towards raids clouds your judgment. And please don't strawman me that raids are positive aspect to "everyone". Let me quote you this time

@Obtena.7952 said:Listen up good ... if you are going to start telling me things I've NEVER said, you are going down the bad path. If you want to challenge what I said, then QUOTE it directly.

[maddoctor.2738]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Again, if raids had the significant impact on the game people pretend they do, how come I don't see a spike in the revenue EVERY Quarter a raid is released that doesn't overlap with an expansion?

Now you are simply being dishonest here. If the open world had such a significant impact on the game you pretend it to have

No it is YOU being dishonest ... WHO do you think is claiming that ONLY open world content had such a significant impact on the game? It's NOT me. The only claim I'm making here is that raids DON'T have that significant impact to make them sustainable content. I've NEVER said anything about OW and I NEVER make my point about raids by cherrypicking ONLY OW content as evidence of it either. Do NOT accuse me of being dishonest based on things I NEVER said.

Furthermore, choosing ONE quarter where we had nothing but OW content and a big decline in revenue is NOT a compelling reason to release a new raid for EoD ... so try that on for size.

Listen up good ... if you are going to start telling me things I've NEVER said, you are going down the bad path. If you want to challenge what I said, then QUOTE it directly.

So keep on being dishoenst here. Follow the rest of the post and not cherry pick the first sentence. Also, where did I say that "ONLY open world content had such a significant impact on the game?" please quote me directly before you start telling me things I've never said.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:What I notice is that it doesn't look like raids have a significant impact on revenues while they were being released. Perfect. That's exactly my point. If people want to argue that raids being introduced will be a great thing for diversity resulting in positive impact on things like revenue and that the opposite is also true when they are stopped, then why does the

actual data

from the game NOT reflect that claim? Oh right ... because it's probably

not true

.

Yes, let's bend fabric of reality so your hatred for raids will have representation on the revenue. Raids keep their target audience engaged with the game for longer. While story is great it is not meant to be replayed so many times over and over every single week til the end of times. If it wasn't for diverse content (raids you love) we would have been in steady decline much earlier. Let's also make a beautiful statement that this forum loves to bring up, that raids are niche content and only small portion of the playerbase plays them. That means with each raid release the decline in revenue does not appear to be so severe. This small audience can appreciate this type of content for longer, meaning they contribute to slowing down the drop of engagement with the game. And if someone is invested in the game - they are more willing to spend money - while waiting for the next content drop. If it wasn't for covid and divine grace of mighty NCsoft allowing ANet to work on 3rd expansion, we would probably witness

more

of record low revenue :)

True , if Raid are niche contnet , that dont offer money

• Dev said that the problem if how many people raid
• And if 250k people that are signed to the Facebook...i mean Gw2efficiency >its a sample of the the community > which did 3-5% of wing5 , while the rest went to Open PvE(maybe they bought the PoF and forget how the LFG works , to trie on ther own ? What was stopping them ? Its faiil>>die>>learn circle)

  Then It doent worth to churn out more raidsBut rather , you should tell the company to put some "badges" that you can buywith rreal money >>same thing as now (buy gems >>tranfrmo into gold) , but will directly goes to crownfunded the raids and a bar will fill up

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Again, if raids had the significant impact on the game people pretend they do, how come I don't see a spike in the revenue EVERY Quarter a raid is released that doesn't overlap with an expansion?

Now you are simply being dishonest here. If the open world had such a significant impact on the game you pretend it to have, why did the game lose 50% of its revenue in Q1 2013? Why did the game reach the lowest point ever in Q4 2019? Why did it keep losing revenue, while having exclusively open world content, from Q1 2013 to Q3 2013. Then in Q4 2013, when we got Fractals and Dungeons it climbed, only to drop again from Q1 2014 up to Q4 2014? Seriously your argument asking why revenue wasn't going up while we were having raid releases doesn't work very well if you apply it to the rest of the game.

Its not like in 2013 , 100 gems > 80silver and was scales to 2,5 gold >100 gems after 3 monthss and the population didnt need to use real moeny and that humogous revenue was from box buy accounts :PPP(ah hmmm , that exploit of red-chilli hot pepper was delicious > Craft food >>sell that to vendor for 22 silver --for few days -before the resset . Where Krypirian that Card game twicher , i want to buy him a a banned -souvlaki )(why 8 years seems , like 2,5 . and cannot remember the happy times ?...why i have grey hair ?...)

[Obtena.7952]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Again, if raids had the significant impact on the game people pretend they do, how come I don't see a spike in the revenue EVERY Quarter a raid is released that doesn't overlap with an expansion?

Now you are simply being dishonest here. If the open world had such a significant impact on the game you pretend it to have

No it is YOU being dishonest ... WHO do you think is claiming that ONLY open world content had such a significant impact on the game? It's NOT me. The only claim I'm making here is that raids DON'T have that significant impact to make them sustainable content. I've NEVER said anything about OW and I NEVER make my point about raids by cherrypicking ONLY OW content as evidence of it either. Do NOT accuse me of being dishonest based on things I NEVER said.

Furthermore, choosing ONE quarter where we had nothing but OW content and a big decline in revenue is NOT a compelling reason to release a new raid for EoD ... so try that on for size.

Listen up good ... if you are going to start telling me things I've NEVER said, you are going down the bad path. If you want to challenge what I said, then QUOTE it directly.

So keep on being dishoenst here. Follow the rest of the post and not cherry pick the first sentence. Also, where did I say that "ONLY open world content had such a significant impact on the game?" please quote me directly before you start telling me things I've never said.

Again, if raids had the significant impact on the game people pretend they do, how come I don't see a spike in the revenue EVERY Quarter a raid is released that doesn't overlap with an expansion? There is NOTHING dishonest about this question and notice that whatever you said about OW doesn't answer it.

[zealex.9410]

If anything the graphs show that the biggest impact in revenew comes from priced addons to the game. Maybe free updates inst the answer either way, maybe anet should look to fully monetise raids and lw instead?

Bigger paid releases mirroring expacs but smaller and more often could be an interesting aproach to content and the data we see supports it more than it does free lw or free raids.

Also compairing lw to raids isnt really a totaly fair comparison, after all raids tent to be a purchase incentive type of content, meanwhile each individual lw episode is priced. Its not a strech to imagine that lw does infact generate income from all the ppl that havent played in a while or dont play gw2 and come to try the game out and either spend gold or flat out buy lw with rl money.

Again, paid content doing the heavy lifting.

[Linken.6345]

@Vayne.8563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:After that drop, the game never really recovered, because it never really got that casual again and it couldn't.

Are we still doing this? Blaming Raids/hardcore content and the exodus of casuals for the revenue drop? After all these pages?Oh yes Vayne, the game "never recovered" from Raids, meanwhile before HOT everything was going so well, right?

That absolutely massive drop between Q4 2012 and Q1 2013 didn't happen right? When between Q1 2013 and Q3 2013 all we got was Living World/Open World episodes, that caused a much bigger drop than Raids, or the hardcore HOT did.

Same for Q1 2014 to 1Q 2015 (Q1 2015 was the announcement of HOT btw) which led to sales, both on Q1 2015 and Q2 2015. But hey let's do it your way and blame the content.

Finally we have the curious bump in Q4 2013, where we finally got 1 new dungeon, 1 new fractal, 4 reworked fractals and mistlock instabilities. Revenue climbed right? Interesting how adding instanced content led to higher revenue at the time, while adding only open world previously led to massive losses.

See having an argument correlating the content released with revenue works both ways, you cannot cherry pick one period of the game and ignore all the others.

Edit: and let's not forget, in Q4 2012 we got a LOT of Fractals with their first release! Just look at the revenue when they launched Fractals! And compare it to the revenue afterwards when they went for Living World only!

For anyone that didn't probably get it, this is a sarcastic post, just using the argument we see around here about "raids causing a revenue drop" against itself.

But HoT was bolstered by sales of a very expansive expansion and STILL didn't come back up to what it was before HOT. Not after that month. The annual sucked because the game didn't hold people. Sure if you sell a bunch of $60 games to everyone, casual and hard core alike, you're going to see a burst. But that burst lasted a seriously short time and those people that felt ripped off left, which is why the whole next year was lower.

Where do you factor in your $60 game. Hell even POF was only half that price, so of course it was going to bring in less.

I actually factor everything in my arguments. You are the one basing your argument about revenue decline based on "raids" and "hardcore HOT" and "Casual exodus". With the same reasoning you give, I showed how a quarter that had the release of Fractals (Q4 2012) skyrocketed revenue, the quarter that had further fractal and dungeon releases (Q4 2013) also increased revenue. While the in-between quarters that had only open world content provided much lower revenue. To use your argument connecting revenue with content against it.

But I'm glad you bring the other factors into your argument now, it's not the mix of content that brings revenue (or lowers it) alone. During Core and HOT the overwhelming majority of this game's revenue has been from box sales, not the gem store. When box sales plummeted, thanks to the core game not converting enough (2 million accounts created at the time!) of course revenue went down. Which is why from a game with a gem store as an addition, it went to a game with a gem store as a major focus with POF. Why did we get the Icebrood Saga and not an expansion? Because they weren't working on an expansion at the time and thought going full gem store would cover the expenses. POF started development at least in April 2016, less than one year after HOT launched (probably even earlier), that tells us Arenanet wanted an expansion based monetization at the time.

None of the above had anything to do with Raids, their existence or lack of them. Notice how every time they discounted the game, there is a dent. When they discounted the core game, revenue decreased. When they bundled HOT with POF, revenue decreased. I don't think that's surprising, it makes absolute sense when your revenue comes from box sales. It doesn't really tell us anything at all about the players playing the game. Higher revenue in a box sale game, doesn't equal more in-game activity or popularity.

I play this game in the open world every single day and yep, I can get a pretty good head count on what's going on at events, at world bosses, in zones. And yeah the population fell. You can say it's annecdotal. You can say It's in my mind. You can say you have a grraph. I KNOW the population fell when HoT lauched unless 50% of the population was raiding and I'm sure that wasn't the case.

It didn't happen overnight. But people who were more casual and couldn't handle harder content did feel cheated by a $60 expansion they felt they couldn't play and fairly or unfairly they played less hours.

As previously stated, I loved HoT and played it all the time, but I had a guild full of people who getting them into HoT was like pulling teeth. I had to coddle and cajole and teach my little heart out to get them there and not all of them made that transition. And I know for a fact I'm not alone.

You can say anything you want with a bar chart. I was there and the population dropped. After the surge of excitement it dropped pretty fast. PoF didn't suffer that same fate, even though hard core players said there was nothing to do. It didn't have that same drop off. Annecdotal I know, but it doesn't mean it's not true.

Well with more maps to spread out over ofcourse population on each is going to fall, how could you think otherwise?

[Linken.6345]

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Well, that's unfair because I never claimed there is not correlation there. But it does beg the question .. if raids are so awesome at increasing diversity and doing what you say to engagement and people spending money in the gem store ... why didn't it work ? Where are all the dollars that were supposedly generated by all this diverse content and engaged people? Oh right, there wasn't any because raids AREN'T diverse content and they DON'T engage enough people to spend. They are SPECIALIZED content.

Let me quote again in case you missed it:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:It was 60 euros for Heart of Thorns but that's besides the point, you said that in the Wing 1-3 era we saw the lowest revenue drop, I showed that wasn't true. During Wing 1 and 2 releases the revenue was 4th and 6th highest. It's the mistake of trying to correlate content released with revenue.

By the way Q4 2019 had exclusively open world content, no Raids, no Fractals, no WVW, no PVP releases AT ALL. Yet it was, and still is, the worst quarter in the game's entire history.Result of no

diverse

content results right there.

That doesn't make sense. If raids are this great diversity thing that has all this positive impact in the game including revenues, where is the big increase in revenues when they were released and while we were getting new ones?

Why would cancelling raid development result in a decrease in revenues when introducing them never resulted in an increase to begin with?

Ok, let's try with pictures.

Notice how for Q2 2016 to Q2 2017 the revenue maintains similar level. And let me quote once again:

What I notice is that it doesn't look like raids have a significant impact on revenues while they were being released. Perfect. That's exactly my point. If people want to argue that raids being introduced will be a great thing for diversity resulting in positive impact on things like revenue and that the opposite is also true when they are stopped, then why does the

actual data

from the game NOT reflect that claim? Oh right ... because it's probably

not true

.

It kept revenue stable just as good as living world so maybe they should stop living world as well?

[Astralporing.1957]

@yukarishura.4790 said:this sounds like a problem with you, not with the gameWhen one player has issues with something, it's that player's problem. When a lot of players have issues with something, the game has a problem. It's always a matter of scale.

[Obtena.7952]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:

@Krzysztof.5973 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Well, that's unfair because I never claimed there is not correlation there. But it does beg the question .. if raids are so awesome at increasing diversity and doing what you say to engagement and people spending money in the gem store ... why didn't it work ? Where are all the dollars that were supposedly generated by all this diverse content and engaged people? Oh right, there wasn't any because raids AREN'T diverse content and they DON'T engage enough people to spend. They are SPECIALIZED content.

Let me quote again in case you missed it:

@"maddoctor.2738" said:It was 60 euros for Heart of Thorns but that's besides the point, you said that in the Wing 1-3 era we saw the lowest revenue drop, I showed that wasn't true. During Wing 1 and 2 releases the revenue was 4th and 6th highest. It's the mistake of trying to correlate content released with revenue.

By the way Q4 2019 had exclusively open world content, no Raids, no Fractals, no WVW, no PVP releases AT ALL. Yet it was, and still is, the worst quarter in the game's entire history.Result of no

diverse

content results right there.

That doesn't make sense. If raids are this great diversity thing that has all this positive impact in the game including revenues, where is the big increase in revenues when they were released and while we were getting new ones?

Why would cancelling raid development result in a decrease in revenues when introducing them never resulted in an increase to begin with?

Ok, let's try with pictures.

Notice how for Q2 2016 to Q2 2017 the revenue maintains similar level. And let me quote once again:

What I notice is that it doesn't look like raids have a significant impact on revenues while they were being released. Perfect. That's exactly my point. If people want to argue that raids being introduced will be a great thing for diversity resulting in positive impact on things like revenue and that the opposite is also true when they are stopped, then why does the

actual data

from the game NOT reflect that claim? Oh right ... because it's probably

not true

.

It kept revenue stable just as good as living world ...

Well, that's debatable and those revenue graphs definitely don't show what you are stating here.

... so maybe they should stop living world as well?Maybe ... but let's be properly honest here, no one but Anet has the data to suggest one way or the other. What I do know ... raids have stopped being developed, LS content has not. Also notice Anet decided to reverse the idea of not releasing another expansion. That's more than enough to suggest that WHATEVER Anet's process for looking at content, it involves delivering content that appeals to enough of the spending playerbase to make it worth their efforts.

Let me be clear ... YES I don't think that Anet should release more raids like how the existing raids were implemented because there is no reason to think that implementation will have a different conclusion than the one that lead them to stopping their development the first time. But this game isn't about me or what I want and the previous actions Anet has taken is more telling than any argument we can have here. I'm firmly of the belief that if we want more raids, then raids have to change ALOT to appeal to more people ... and based on other instanced content Anet is experimenting with, it's hard to see how doing that will continue to satisfy the desires of the raiding community. Anet needs to build content for customers it has, not get the customers to come to the content they want to make. At 8+ years in ... they should know what that content is.

Interestingly enough ... people will deny raid development stop is because of low revenues associated with raid content, but turn around and have no problem showing revenue graphs to justify new raids even though those graphs don't show it either.

[Vayne.8563]

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:But people were there. Because I wa;s there, and I'd pop a tag for events, whatever events I wanted and people were suddenly there from all over. Sure it wasn't Dragon Stand.

And when you tag up on HOT maps and asked for help nobody came along? Or you counted how many came along when you asked for help in HOT and POF? Every single day? And you remember well how many came when you asked for help on HOT and how many came when you asked on POF maps. I think you are simply being dishonest here.

Wasn't really my point. On HoT maps where the meta wasn't going on, if I didn't tag up, I'd have people joining me for hero points whether I called them up in map chat or not. But the same was happening in POF. A good portion of the time if I started a hero point, by the time I was done others would be there with me. This was common.

When I did call out, I got just as much help in HoT maps as I did in POF maps on non meta maps.

[Vayne.8563]

@Linken.6345 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:

@maddoctor.2738 said:

@Vayne.8563 said:After that drop, the game never really recovered, because it never really got that casual again and it couldn't.

Are we still doing this? Blaming Raids/hardcore content and the exodus of casuals for the revenue drop? After all these pages?Oh yes Vayne, the game "never recovered" from Raids, meanwhile before HOT everything was going so well, right?

That absolutely massive drop between Q4 2012 and Q1 2013 didn't happen right? When between Q1 2013 and Q3 2013 all we got was Living World/Open World episodes, that caused a much bigger drop than Raids, or the hardcore HOT did.

Same for Q1 2014 to 1Q 2015 (Q1 2015 was the announcement of HOT btw) which led to sales, both on Q1 2015 and Q2 2015. But hey let's do it your way and blame the content.

Finally we have the curious bump in Q4 2013, where we finally got 1 new dungeon, 1 new fractal, 4 reworked fractals and mistlock instabilities. Revenue climbed right? Interesting how adding instanced content led to higher revenue at the time, while adding only open world previously led to massive losses.

See having an argument correlating the content released with revenue works both ways, you cannot cherry pick one period of the game and ignore all the others.

Edit: and let's not forget, in Q4 2012 we got a LOT of Fractals with their first release! Just look at the revenue when they launched Fractals! And compare it to the revenue afterwards when they went for Living World only!

For anyone that didn't probably get it, this is a sarcastic post, just using the argument we see around here about "raids causing a revenue drop" against itself.

But HoT was bolstered by sales of a very expansive expansion and STILL didn't come back up to what it was before HOT. Not after that month. The annual sucked because the game didn't hold people. Sure if you sell a bunch of $60 games to everyone, casual and hard core alike, you're going to see a burst. But that burst lasted a seriously short time and those people that felt ripped off left, which is why the whole next year was lower.

Where do you factor in your $60 game. Hell even POF was only half that price, so of course it was going to bring in less.

I actually factor everything in my arguments. You are the one basing your argument about revenue decline based on "raids" and "hardcore HOT" and "Casual exodus". With the same reasoning you give, I showed how a quarter that had the release of Fractals (Q4 2012) skyrocketed revenue, the quarter that had further fractal and dungeon releases (Q4 2013) also increased revenue. While the in-between quarters that had only open world content provided much lower revenue. To use your argument connecting revenue with content against it.

But I'm glad you bring the other factors into your argument now, it's not the mix of content that brings revenue (or lowers it) alone. During Core and HOT the overwhelming majority of this game's revenue has been from box sales, not the gem store. When box sales plummeted, thanks to the core game not converting enough (2 million accounts created at the time!) of course revenue went down. Which is why from a game with a gem store as an addition, it went to a game with a gem store as a major focus with POF. Why did we get the Icebrood Saga and not an expansion? Because they weren't working on an expansion at the time and thought going full gem store would cover the expenses. POF started development at least in April 2016, less than one year after HOT launched (probably even earlier), that tells us Arenanet wanted an expansion based monetization at the time.

None of the above had anything to do with Raids, their existence or lack of them. Notice how every time they discounted the game, there is a dent. When they discounted the core game, revenue decreased. When they bundled HOT with POF, revenue decreased. I don't think that's surprising, it makes absolute sense when your revenue comes from box sales. It doesn't really tell us anything at all about the players playing the game. Higher revenue in a box sale game, doesn't equal more in-game activity or popularity.

I play this game in the open world every single day and yep, I can get a pretty good head count on what's going on at events, at world bosses, in zones. And yeah the population fell. You can say it's annecdotal. You can say It's in my mind. You can say you have a grraph. I KNOW the population fell when HoT lauched unless 50% of the population was raiding and I'm sure that wasn't the case.

It didn't happen overnight. But people who were more casual and couldn't handle harder content did feel cheated by a $60 expansion they felt they couldn't play and fairly or unfairly they played less hours.

As previously stated, I loved HoT and played it all the time, but I had a guild full of people who getting them into HoT was like pulling teeth. I had to coddle and cajole and teach my little heart out to get them there and not all of them made that transition. And I know for a fact I'm not alone.

You can say anything you want with a bar chart. I was there and the population dropped. After the surge of excitement it dropped pretty fast. PoF didn't suffer that same fate, even though hard core players said there was nothing to do. It didn't have that same drop off. Annecdotal I know, but it doesn't mean it's not true.

Well with more maps to spread out over ofcourse population on each is going to fall, how could you think otherwise?

WHen HoT came out there were only 4 more maps. I see more people now in some maps than I did in the aftermath of HoT and you know there are a lot more maps now. I remember people thinking how dead the game was back then about six months after hot launched. I don't see those posts anymore. It's because even though we have more zones, we also seem to have more people in each zone. I never have problem finding groups to get stuff done, even in Season 3 zones these days.

[The Fear.3865]

W8 please :#

[Luthan.5236]

I'd rather have them spend their resources on other stuff that I like. (I do not like raids.) Also keep in mind: There are even whole game modes that (WvW, PvP) that only received minor updates since the release in 2012. That they even added raids and strikes and stuff to PvE ... already was a big deal. Can't expect much more - especially if it does not make them profit.

The raiders probably only care about the challenge/difficulty - not buying that much in the gem store. While the other "average" player enjoy open world and the "Fashion Wars" and stuff. The core philosophy of the game always had been - since the beginning - to have no gear treadmill and to generate most content in a way that new players can play it directly without farming.

Ascended stuff therefore did not add much stats increase compared to exotics. (Most stuff can be playec with exotics - which are cheap.) Legendaries only for convenience. No "holy triad".

All good. And raids are just more difficulty - you don't need to farm tons of gear like in WoW. Once you have your ascended set. But the community itself seems to create close/small hardcore groups where it is hard for new players. (Or raids aren't just for everyone and only a small playerbase. Even if the new players tried ... not many might stick with it.) They (and strikes and high level fractals) also seem to create some kind of player generated "holy triad" where - while everyone can heal themselves, etc. - players and groups try to enforce certain "roles". This is in contrast to the core philosophy of the game.

Naturally you will end up with less players wanting to play raids here ... cause ... you know ... the people that like raiding already focus on other games whikle GW2's strenght specifically is that it is made for people that do not like the other "your usual MMORPG". Focusing stronger on raids (instead of fully focusing on that other players) might scare away other other players while not really winning new players that like raids. (Cause for them there are already other games.)

It actually seems like they tried a lot of stuff in PvE - not only with the instanced content but also with open world group content. Where it failed and they stopped with it. (Bounties. Very boring.) The solution probably is to try totally now stuff every time. Just add more strikes or DRM ... or some totally new type of thing in the next expansion.

And let's be honest: The Cantha expansion in GW1 was focused on PvP. PvP (and WvW) did not have any real major updates since release. They should work there. Could also cost a lot while not generating new players for that content. But with correct advertising (needs maps in the PvE maps like the Jade Quarry and stuff had border in the normal maps in Cantha in GW1) ... it could at least get PvE p layers to try out PvP.

Edit: Also you can't compare some sales/revenue numbers over the different years and quarters. Near christmas ... people might buy more. Then in later years we have the mobile trend - people more playing on mobile and other stuff. And of course other games and the general lack of interest and need for something new (=totally new game with other system/professions/races/lore). You can't just say in 2019 it was low and in 2013 when they addec fractals it was high ... lol. (I mean: The fractals and stuff ... is still there - for those that like it. And tons of other reasons make people stop playing.)