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Why is every NPC Mesmer more powerful than the player?


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Why can't i spam portals like Kasmeer can? Or summon hordes of illusions that are actually pretty tough and damaging?Or snap my fingers (or point at people?) like Jennah and people just die? Or create Feedback dome around a whole city?Or disguise myself whenever i want for as long as i want?

Not to mention tons of other Mesmer powers that seemingly every NPC Mesmer has except the player?

This is a lore thread so please don't tell me "gameplay reasons". Yeah, i know, obviously.But let's "lore this up", like, is there a legitimate reason they're all so powerful but the Commander (if Mesmer) isn't?Or does the Commander have some tricks up their sleeve that others don't so it evens the power and makes them just as powerful as others?

What could be the in universe reason for it? Or is the Commander just as powerful, but in a different way?What are some displays of Mesmer powers that you recall are way more powerful than Commander's? Cause i couldn't remember them all.

What even are Mesmers? Just mages with a specialization in magic or are they something else?I vaguely recall reading somewhere that everyone in Tyria uses magic, even Warriors, that all skills are basically magic, only used in "that particular context".If so... What is everything? :smiley:

So... Opinions? Facts? Anything?I'm interested in this. :smile:

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I suppose a partial response would be....why should you be able to do anything and everything another person is capable of, and visa versa? It's normal for people, real or fictional, to have different talents and abilities. I'd try to go more in depth, but trying to make longer responses using my phone will give me an aneurysm.

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@"The Greyhawk.9107" said:I suppose a partial response would be....why should you be able to do anything and everything another person is capable of, and visa versa? It's normal for people, real or fictional, to have different talents and abilities. I'd try to go more in depth, but trying to make longer responses using my phone will give me an aneurysm.

Sure, that's one way of looking at it.And i suppose Jennah, being royal and all would have been taught a lot during her training and all...But on the other hand, the kitten the Commander's been through is also a LOT, i mean, we kill a God one time, alone, so that's some serious power right there as well. Hard to think you wouldn't be at least close to their power?

One way i could "justify" this is - maybe the Commander is more a "combat Mesmer", so our ability and skills are honed for combat rather than passive deception and stuff. Maybe Jennah can't cast Null Field or Gravity Wells or even Time Warp. But she makes up for it with a more powerful Feedback dome? And that dome did take her a lot of effort to do so who's to say the Commander can't given enough effort as well?

Idk... Maybe? :smile:

Does anyone have like, a list of Jennah, Kasmeer's and other Mesmer's powers? Or maybe some lore how they got to be Mesmers, who taught them etc.?Or anything else that would explain their power or the Commander's seeming lack of it.

I mean, i get when a Djinn in Jahai casts Fake Joko and the illusion is so real it can kill you, or Joko himself when he taunts the Commander in Kourna when you assault him in Gandara but, Jennah and Kasmeer are just Humans...

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The simple answer is "gameplay balance". NPCs, especially during story moments, don't need to be balanced like the player's skill sets because PvP and WvW and whatnot.

@"Veprovina.4876" said:I mean, i get when a Djinn in Jahai casts Fake Joko and the illusion is so real it can kill you, or Joko himself when he taunts the Commander in Kourna when you assault him in Gandara but, Jennah and Kasmeer are just Humans...

Being "just human" doesn't really mean "weaker". If you delve into the famous historical NPCs brought up in GW1, then they're all capable of pretty extreme feats of magic.

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@"Konig Des Todes.2086" said:The simple answer is "gameplay balance". NPCs, especially during story moments, don't need to be balanced like the player's skill sets because PvP and WvW and whatnot.

@"Veprovina.4876" said:I mean, i get when a Djinn in Jahai casts Fake Joko and the illusion is so real it can kill you, or Joko himself when he taunts the Commander in Kourna when you assault him in Gandara but, Jennah and Kasmeer are just Humans...

Being "just human" doesn't really mean "weaker". If you delve into the famous historical NPCs brought up in GW1, then they're all capable of pretty extreme feats of magic.

Yes, obviously gameplay balance.But i'm not looking for that, i was hoping for some kind of in universe lore explanation for this. :smile: This is a lore sub-forum after all.So, while something is ultimately done just for the sake of balance, usually it can also be supported by the lore to not be so immersion breaking.

And indeed "just human" doesn't mean weaker, but my argument was more of Djinn's age, like, they'd inevitably have more time to practice such things while humans wouldn't. Though, on the other hand, someone might just be extremely gifted and surpass even the immortal beings. After all, humans did ascend to godhood in this universe (Kormir?), and the player Commander (if human) even kills a God, so, the balance of power in this universe seems so weird at times. :sweat_smile:

Thank you for your input! :smile:

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I like how you restrained yourself from getting angry at someone blatantly ignoring the discussions restriction.

From what I've read Mesmer are very stringent when it comes to keeping their knowledge a secret.This creates something of a loop-hole to your question, because.. well.. they won't tell you why or how they can do what they do.

Like you ponted out, the fact that a mesmer-player is able to even kill a god suggests that the player is actually amazingly strong and makes your theory of him/her being a "combat mesmer" very likely. His art seems to focus on the destructive aspects of mesmer magic more than anything else, especially in GW2.

Edit: It's still a very unsatisfying answer that is more along the lines of an author saying "it's like that because I say it's like that!"

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@"Malitias.8453" said:I like how you restrained yourself from getting angry at someone blatantly ignoring the discussions restriction.

Haha, yeah, and i even mention this in OP as well. :tongue: I ackgnowledge that it's obviously for gameplay reasons, but i just want to find some lore reasons as well. :smile:No sense in getting angry though, that would accomplish nothing.

From what I've read Mesmer are very stringent when it comes to keeping their knowledge a secret.This creates something of a loop-hole to your question, because.. well.. they won't tell you why or how they can do what they do.

So they're like a top secret organisation? Or maybe they like, take apprentices only and that's how their secrets are passed down, without any "formal" teaching? That's a cool prospect to me. Especially since i Made a Charr Mesmer. :smiley: Would be interesting to know where he got his powers from, like, Charr aren't traditionally Mesmers so maybe each Charr that IS a Mesmer got the knowledge from some "outside" source?

In any case, yeah, it does create a bit of a loophole, but on the other hand, that is an answer in and of itself. That they're secretive. And while, yeah, could be frustrating when someone doesn't explain something, but this type of narrative serves its purpose as well.

Like you ponted out, the fact that a mesmer-player is able to even kill a god suggests that the player is actually amazingly strong and makes your theory of him/her being a "combat mesmer" very likely. His art seems to focus on the destructive aspects of mesmer magic more than anything else, especially in GW2.

Yeah, that's my current "working theory". Especially when you put elites into the equation. Jennah and Kasmeer seem to be "core" mesmers. I don't recall any of them using elite skills whenever they displayed their powers. They just seem to be more powerful versions of core mesmer skills.The Commander on the other hand can split and rewind time for himself, create wells of time that slow and quicken the passage of time separately for allies and enemies at the same time, disappear in a mirage letting projectiles and slashes pass right through them while standing still and using this time to ambush enemies, teleport and blink around the battlefield, switch their position with a clone, and generally use a much wider variety of attacks than Jennah or Kasmeer displayed. Also, the Commander's ability is centered around copying themselves and shatering, which is a higly offensive ability. I don't remember Jennah or Kasmeer ever cloning themselves? At least not to the extent the Commander does (like, regularly each battle). So it seems that ability alone is something that's maybe hard to do and maybe only combat Mesmers can do it.

Elites then feel like a different set of highly combat specialized abilites that Jennah doesn't have, she's more of a trickster/defensive. Sure, she killed a few people by pointing at them but since that's not something she does every time there's a confrontation, i assume it's some more powerful ability that drained her.

Edit: It's still a very unsatisfying answer that is more along the lines of an author saying "it's like that because I say it's like that!"

Actually, no, it's pretty good! Kinda gives credence to my "combat mesmer" theory. :smile:

Thanks for your input! :smile:

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@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Malitias.8453" said:I like how you restrained yourself from getting angry at someone blatantly ignoring the discussions restriction.

Haha, yeah, and i even mention this in OP as well. :tongue: I ackgnowledge that it's obviously for gameplay reasons, but i just want to find some lore reasons as well. :smile:No sense in getting angry though, that would accomplish nothing.

I wasn't intending on "blatantly ignoring the discussions restriction". I was saying there is no lore reason for why they can do this but the Commander can't, because by what lore we have, the Commander CAN do that. And more. But it's restricted to scripted events because gameplay balance.

Given things like the profession-restricted skills of the story instances Confessor's End and The Hero of Istan, I imagine it's just gameplay limitations and nothing more. If revenants can willy-nilly summon Legendary Prisoner Stance Palawa Joko, or necromancers randomly take control of their enemy's minions in those instances, which have zero circumstantial benefits, there's no reason to think they can't normally lorewise.

These scripted events, especially profession-specific ones, are few and far between, but they show that the Commander is fully capable of skills, spells, and techniques beyond the gameplay balance restrictions enforced on them.

Kasmeer, Anise, and Jennah are the cream of the crop when it comes to modern day mesmers (Xera too, but she's boosted by Bloodstone magic powersources), so it's unsurprising they're capable of big feats. The Commander is also among the best of the best; all of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch (+Trahearne and Almorra) are.

And indeed "just human" doesn't mean weaker, but my argument was more of Djinn's age, like, they'd inevitably have more time to practice such things while humans wouldn't. Though, on the other hand, someone might just be extremely gifted and surpass even the immortal beings.

While having more time to study magic no doubt improve's one's ability and versatility, there's no real solid indication that it'd result in increased magical capability. This limitation seems more on the quantity of magic in the ambient world, and as shown with PoF bounties, too much direct contact to such is very much a negative.

@Veprovina.4876 said:

@"Malitias.8453" said:From what I've read Mesmer are very stringent when it comes to keeping their knowledge a secret.This creates something of a loop-hole to your question, because.. well.. they won't tell you why or how they can do what they do.

So they're like a top secret organisation? Or maybe they like, take apprentices only and that's how their secrets are passed down, without any "formal" teaching? That's a cool prospect to me. Especially since i Made a Charr Mesmer. :smiley: Would be interesting to know where he got his powers from, like, Charr aren't traditionally Mesmers so maybe each Charr that IS a Mesmer got the knowledge from some "outside" source?

In any case, yeah, it does create a bit of a loophole, but on the other hand, that is an answer in and of itself. That they're secretive. And while, yeah, could be frustrating when someone doesn't explain something, but this type of narrative serves its purpose as well.

It isn't that mesmers are a secret organization, but rather that there is a self-policing organization of mesmers - called the Mesmer Collective - which very well may just be human mesmers (it's unclear on that). The Commander isn't a member because, as mentioned by mesmer PCs in Season 2, one needs to be sponsored in order to join, and the Commander moves around too much for that. Kasmeer and Anise are both members, though.

And rather than "very stringent", it's more that they have rules and regulations on modern mesmers from using direct mental mindfuckery magic which was much more commonplace in GW1 (externally, this is ANet's explanation for why GW2 mesmer skills focus more on reality-bending than mind-manipulation magic). Part of the reason being that they recognize that if the mass populace knew powerful mesmers can mess with another's mind so easily, it'd cause panic and distrust.

As to charr being traditionally mesmers... they very much are. There's been charr mesmers since Day 1 of the game. Charr have a dislike of magic, but that doesn't prevent them from making use of magic, or having many magic users in their ranks.

I don't remember Jennah or Kasmeer ever cloning themselves? At least not to the extent the Commander does (like, regularly each battle).Jennah does regularly have clones made of herself when attacks are suspected, main exception to this being The Meeting of Ministers instance during Season 3. But when Scarlet attacked the Closing Ceremony of Queen's jubilee, as well as when Kellach attacked, she created a clone of herself as a decoy.

These clones were more defensive in nature though, like her nigh-impenetrable shield bubble during Caudecus's Manor dungeon.

Kasmeer creates a lot of phantasms in S2 (specifically the Fort Salma instance), while creating several clones in the S1 finale (more a distraction than offensive or defensive technique though). Both times in far higher quantities than players can.

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This is a little bit of an aside, but the dome that covered Divinitys Reach wasn't so.ething Jennah cast by herself or without preparation, but rather she was the one that triggered it. She's not so powerful as to do something like that on her own or spontaneously.

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you could imagine that casting distance portals requires an impractical casting time or an artefact that kasmeer wont ever tell you about (they speed it up in game so you wont lose your sanity). maybe kasmeer is some sort of port specialist whereas the player mesmer kind of just knew it as a parlour trick. or the perhaps big sad truth, it just wasnt part of the player mesmers limited repertoire

jennah could be channeling multiple mesmers powers/magical items to simulate significantly enhanced versions of basic mesmer abilities. or maybe a lot of preparation. imo she cant be the only one who cares, if you were human mesmer in that instance youd also want to contribute to making the big bubble. however she does seem to be good at taking all the credit though. have you seen how sad/useless she is in the caudecus manor story dungeon? jennah master troll spotted :open_mouth:

and/or you could just imagine every mesmer player is holding back a portion of their true power :sunglasses:

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Lore-wise, the commander isn't even a Mesmer.In fact, lore-wise the commander isn't any profession at all.That's just like FF14's Warrior of Light in the lore has no job and WoW's Champion of Azeroth has no class.

Also, the dome around Divinity's Reach wasn't done by Jennah alone.It's a defensive mechanism created by many Mesmers and Guardians.All Jennah did was pulling the proverbial lever to activate it.

And yes, the commander has several tricks noone else can do:Aurene's crystal magic

@Veprovina.4876 said:Or maybe some lore how they got to be Mesmers, who taught them etc.?I assume that they are Mesmers because they are nobles.Mesmers always have been most strongly associated with nobility and the arts.This also ties into reality, as in the past the arts were almost commonly something only nobility people could revel in.Another two ties between arts and Mesmers we have are Norgu, the GW1 Mesmer hero whose main job is being an actor and Tannaros, the GvG Mesmer/Derwish henchman (who also is an actor).

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Tbh, I wonder why unique Mesmers such as Xera for example get a blurred frenzy attack that inflicts torment and confusion and we don’t get something like that for us....

But anyways, aside from some of Xeras cool skills, I think Mesmer should get the skill that the White Mantle Mesmers have where you have to essentially destroy the “clone veil” that’s on them in order to reveal the real Mesmer.

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@Tseison.4659 said:Tbh, I wonder why unique Mesmers such as Xera for example get a blurred frenzy attack that inflicts torment and confusion and we don’t get something like that for us....

But anyways, aside from some of Xeras cool skills, I think Mesmer should get the skill that the White Mantle Mesmers have where you have to essentially destroy the “clone veil” that’s on them in order to reveal the real Mesmer.

Xeras a special case, as already mentioned, do to being empowered by bloodstone shards.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"Malitias.8453" said:I like how you restrained yourself from getting angry at someone blatantly ignoring the discussions restriction.

Haha, yeah, and i even mention this in OP as well. :tongue: I ackgnowledge that it's obviously for gameplay reasons, but i just want to find some lore reasons as well. :smile:No sense in getting angry though, that would accomplish nothing.

I wasn't intending on "blatantly ignoring the discussions restriction". I was saying there is no lore reason for why they can do this but the Commander can't, because by what lore we have, the Commander
CAN
do that. And more. But it's restricted to scripted events because gameplay balance.

I know, but i was trying to find some lore reasons that might have an impact on it. But about scripted events, are there any for mesmers? Or at all for specific professions? Cause i didn't find any, or don't remember...

Given things like the profession-restricted skills of the story instances Confessor's End and The Hero of Istan, I imagine it's just gameplay limitations and nothing more. If revenants can willy-nilly summon Legendary Prisoner Stance Palawa Joko, or necromancers randomly take control of their enemy's minions in those instances, which have zero circumstantial benefits, there's no reason to think they can't normally lorewise.These scripted events, especially profession-specific ones, are few and far between, but they show that the Commander is fully capable of skills, spells, and techniques beyond the gameplay balance restrictions enforced on them.

What's the Mesmers scripted skill there? I forgot...

Kasmeer, Anise, and Jennah are the cream of the crop when it comes to modern day mesmers (Xera too, but she's boosted by Bloodstone magic powersources), so it's unsurprising they're capable of big feats. The Commander is also among the best of the best; all of Destiny's Edge and Dragon's Watch (+Trahearne and Almorra) are.

And indeed "just human" doesn't mean weaker, but my argument was more of Djinn's age, like, they'd inevitably have more time to practice such things while humans wouldn't. Though, on the other hand, someone might just be extremely gifted and surpass even the immortal beings.

While having more time to study magic no doubt improve's one's ability and versatility, there's no real solid indication that it'd result in increased magical capability. This limitation seems more on the quantity of magic in the ambient world, and as shown with PoF bounties, too much direct contact to such is very much a negative.

@"Malitias.8453" said:From what I've read Mesmer are very stringent when it comes to keeping their knowledge a secret.This creates something of a loop-hole to your question, because.. well.. they won't tell you why or how they can do what they do.

So they're like a top secret organisation? Or maybe they like, take apprentices only and that's how their secrets are passed down, without any "formal" teaching? That's a cool prospect to me. Especially since i Made a Charr Mesmer. :smiley: Would be interesting to know where he got his powers from, like, Charr aren't traditionally Mesmers so maybe each Charr that IS a Mesmer got the knowledge from some "outside" source?

In any case, yeah, it does create a bit of a loophole, but on the other hand, that is an answer in and of itself. That they're secretive. And while, yeah, could be frustrating when someone doesn't explain something, but this type of narrative serves its purpose as well.

It isn't that mesmers are a secret organization, but rather that there is a self-policing organization of mesmers - called the Mesmer Collective - which very well may just be human mesmers (it's unclear on that). The Commander isn't a member because, as mentioned by mesmer PCs in Season 2, one needs to be sponsored in order to join, and the Commander moves around too much for that. Kasmeer and Anise are both members, though.

Ah cool, thanks for explaining!So they are organised.

And rather than "very stringent", it's more that they have rules and regulations on modern mesmers from using direct mental mindfuckery magic which was much more commonplace in GW1 (externally, this is ANet's explanation for why GW2 mesmer skills focus more on reality-bending than mind-manipulation magic). Part of the reason being that they recognize that if the mass populace knew powerful mesmers can mess with another's mind so easily, it'd cause panic and distrust.

Wise choice not to divulge that ability to just everyone lol.

As to charr being traditionally mesmers... they very much are. There's been charr mesmers since Day 1 of the game. Charr have a dislike of magic, but that doesn't prevent them from making use of magic, or having many magic users in their ranks.

Where do Charr learn Mesmer magic from? Same way humans do? Some noble sponsor among Charr or?

I don't remember Jennah or Kasmeer ever cloning themselves? At least not to the extent the Commander does (like, regularly each battle).Jennah does regularly have clones made of herself when attacks are suspected, main exception to this being The Meeting of Ministers instance during Season 3. But when Scarlet attacked the Closing Ceremony of Queen's jubilee, as well as when Kellach attacked, she created a clone of herself as a decoy.

These clones were more defensive in nature though, like her nigh-impenetrable shield bubble during Caudecus's Manor dungeon.

Kasmeer creates a lot of phantasms in S2 (specifically the Fort Salma instance), while creating several clones in the S1 finale (more a distraction than offensive or defensive technique though). Both times in far higher quantities than players can.

Ah, that's why i don't remember. It's been forever since S1 and Scarlett, and i never played S2, don't own it. :smile:But they use clones defensively right? As opposed to the Commander's offensive use of them via shatters?

@The Greyhawk.9107 said:This is a little bit of an aside, but the dome that covered Divinitys Reach wasn't so.ething Jennah cast by herself or without preparation, but rather she was the one that triggered it. She's not so powerful as to do something like that on her own or spontaneously.

Ah! That makes way more sense. And as @Fueki.4753 said, also Guardian magic. We can cross the Divinity's Reach dome off from being Mesmer specific then, let alone cast by a single person.

@Fueki.4753 said:Lore-wise, the commander isn't even a Mesmer.In fact, lore-wise the commander isn't any profession at all.That's just like FF14's Warrior of Light in the lore has no job and WoW's Champion of Azeroth has no class.

But the game still does on few instances acknowledge your profession. So it's kind of tied to the lore...

Also, the dome around Divinity's Reach wasn't done by Jennah alone.It's a defensive mechanism created by many Mesmers and Guardians.All Jennah did was pulling the proverbial lever to activate it.

Yup! Remembered it wrong, or misunderstood it. Thx for explaining!

And yes, the commander has several tricks noone else can do:Aurene's crystal magic

That's universal though, regardless of what profession the Commander is. If the Commander was a Warrior, they can still do that, doesn't make them a "powerful in class" because that's not a class specific thing. I was comparing Mesmer specific things to NPCs, though, on the greater power scale, whole individual, not just the Commander's profession, then that is a very powerful feat the commander can do that no one else can. Good point!

@Veprovina.4876 said:Or maybe some lore how they got to be Mesmers, who taught them etc.?I assume that they are Mesmers because they are nobles.Mesmers always have been most strongly associated with nobility and the arts.This also ties into reality, as in the past the arts were almost commonly something only nobility people could revel in.Another two ties between arts and Mesmers we have are Norgu, the GW1 Mesmer hero whose main job is being an actor and Tannaros, the GvG Mesmer/Derwish henchman (who also is an actor).

Thank you, interesting info! Never played GW1 so i don't know a lot of it.How do Charr become Mesmers? I'm interested cause i made a Charr Mesmer. Is there some lore on them? :smile:

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Not that I can recall. You asked if charr mesmers are taught by charr nobility, but aside from maybe the Imperators the charr have no nobility. We can really only guess at how one might learn any magic focused professions in a culture that looks down on magic users.

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@Veprovina.4876 said:How do Charr become Mesmers? I'm interested cause i made a Charr Mesmer. Is there some lore on them? :smile:I don't recall any Charr in lore to actually be a Mesmer, or any non-human at all.The non-human Mesmer enemies in GW1 exist to create enemy variety (because enemies have player professions in GW1 and the steal Elite skills from the bosses.I don't think there has been much lore about specific enemies being a specific profession.

But the effects of Mesmer magic align well with the methods and actions of the Ash legion, so it wouldn't be too strange for more scholarly inclined members of Ash to study that magic.

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The commander can be any class. If they chose to give certain classes their "moment" I think we would see this more tbh. And you can summon a horde of illusions that run stuff over especially with chronomancer. We can summon giant bubbles that speeds up time for allies and slows it for enemies. We can stealth a large number of allies in a large area.

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We should focus on what the commander CAN do.

Like fighting other Dragons Champions like Ryland 1 on 1 without effort. Despite never receiving the Corruption power boost.

Like standing up after getting send flying from kralks breath attack for like 100-200m and crashing into a wall with high speed.

Like surviving an attack from a weapon designed to kill elder dragons, basically point plank while the commander just fought an dragon champion.

The commander is a beast.

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The Commander is indeed a beast.

That said, it is possible that Jennah being a queen has access to top secret Krytan magic. Kas probably has mesmer tricks passed down through her family that are tightly held secrets, or was born being better able to cast portals than other mesmers.

Things like that.

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@Veprovina.4876 said:

@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:Given things like the profession-restricted skills of the story instances Confessor's End and The Hero of Istan, I imagine it's
just
gameplay limitations and nothing more. If revenants can willy-nilly summon Legendary Prisoner Stance Palawa Joko, or necromancers randomly take control of their enemy's minions in those instances, which have zero circumstantial benefits, there's no reason to think they can't normally lorewise.These scripted events, especially profession-specific ones, are few and far between, but they show that the Commander is fully capable of skills, spells, and techniques beyond the gameplay balance restrictions enforced on them.

What's the Mesmers scripted skill there? I forgot...

Not sure if there's one during Confessor's End for mesmers, but during The Hero of Istan, mesmers simply blink through the bars.

@Veprovina.4876 said:Where do Charr learn Mesmer magic from? Same way humans do? Some noble sponsor among Charr or?

Presumably from a fahrar, as well with other magic. Humans have academies (and private tutors for nobles; probably got cases of one-on-one mentorships too), while asura have the colleges and schools for progeny. There's no stated educating system other than fahrar for charr, none for norn, and sylvari have small classes and one-on-ones with mentors in the Grove.

Incidentally, despite being the most structured, we don't actually see any cases of human studies in the game.

How do Charr become Mesmers? I'm interested cause i made a Charr Mesmer. Is there some lore on them? :smile:People are born with affinity to their kind of magic, though they can learn any form of magic with time and patience.

@"Fueki.4753" said:I don't recall any Charr in lore to actually be a Mesmer, or any non-human at all.The honorless gladium sire, Vallus Smokemane, is a mesmer, as is Soure Doomsday, a possible recruit for Blood charr PCs. And I'm pretty sure there are more in GW2 - obviously GW1 has a plethora of named mesmer charr bosses, with one ally mesmer charr too, albeit as secondary.

And that's just charr. A notable norn mesmer would be Vilnia Shadowsong, a devotee to Raven's darker teachings. Raven in general is a patron to norn necromancers and mesmers.

While mesmers are most common among humans, there are very much important non-human mesmers in both GW2 and GW1 (and that's not counting the generic boss foes).

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@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:We should focus on what the commander CAN do.

Like fighting other Dragons Champions like Ryland 1 on 1 without effort. Despite never receiving the Corruption power boost.

Like standing up after getting send flying from kralks breath attack for like 100-200m and crashing into a wall with high speed.

Like surviving an attack from a weapon designed to kill elder dragons, basically point plank while the commander just fought an dragon champion.

The commander is a beast.

Fun fact:

  • The Commander does not fight Ryland 1 on 1 ever (yet). In fact, they seldom fight any foe 1-on-1, let alone a dragon champion. Not even the Shadow of the Dragon was fought 1-on-1. And when they do fight 1-on-1, the commander loses (see: fights with Balthazar and Joko). And as of HoT, the Commander technically does "receive the Corruption power boost" due to their bond with Aurene, with an increasingly stronger bond as the story goes on (particularly beginning in Season 4).
  • 100-200m is a gross overstatement, and even if they stood up, they were very much knocked out and heavily injured for quite some time (and didn't take a direct hit and also had some good ol' fashion crystal protection magic).
  • If you're referring to Braham's bow, that technically wasn't designed to kill Elder Dragons, but specifically enchanted with the specific weakness of one Elder Dragon, which is not Aurene, so it's no more effective against Aurene-bonded Commander than any other fire-enchanted weapon.

Probably 80% of the Commander's strength come from their allies or bond with Aurene, lorewise.

Though, yes, the Commander is indeed a beast, capable of things normal Tyrians aren't, like all of Dragon's Watch and Destiny's Edge.

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@DanAlcedo.3281 said:We should focus on what the commander CAN do.

Like fighting other Dragons Champions like Ryland 1 on 1 without effort. Despite never receiving the Corruption power boost.

Like standing up after getting send flying from kralks breath attack for like 100-200m and crashing into a wall with high speed.

Like surviving an attack from a weapon designed to kill elder dragons, basically point plank while the commander just fought an dragon champion.

The commander is a beast.

This. The Commander (whatever class they are) represents an incredible level of heroic power that no NPC can really match outside of a few specific powers or gimmicks. While specific NPCs may have a signature gift or power, they definitely never match the Commander in sheer capability.

Consider if you will that most of the NPCs we see only use one weapon, and only use a small move set of powers. Now consider that the Commander has access to all of the weapons a class can use, plus all of the powers, traitlines, and elite specializations, and can use any of them, on command, as the situation calls for it.

So extrapolate on that: most Mesmers train their whole lives to evidence a few powers (clones, portals, maybe a blast or two), and maybe train in one weapon to enhance that. Then along comes the Commander, who just plunks down a small armory of weapons, and proceeds to toss out core, Chrono, and Mirage powers with equal skill. While some enemies can do significant damage or show significant power, their range of ability to do so is incredibly limited; the Commander can do the same thing across a wide range of powers.

If you ever played Knights of the Old Republic you may recall that Bastila Shan was widely considered one of the most powerful Jedi of her era, with the ability to use Battle Meditation over a very large area. However, the player character - while unable to match her raw power in that one way - was undoubtedly much more powerful overall.

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@Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

@"DanAlcedo.3281" said:We should focus on what the commander CAN do.

Like fighting other Dragons Champions like Ryland 1 on 1 without effort. Despite never receiving the Corruption power boost.

Like standing up after getting send flying from kralks breath attack for like 100-200m and crashing into a wall with high speed.

Like surviving an attack from a weapon designed to kill elder dragons, basically point plank while the commander just fought an dragon champion.

The commander is a beast.

Fun fact:
  • The Commander does not fight Ryland 1 on 1 ever (yet). In fact, they seldom fight
    any
    foe 1-on-1, let alone a dragon champion. Not even the Shadow of the Dragon was fought 1-on-1. And when they do fight 1-on-1,
    the commander loses
    (see: fights with Balthazar and Joko). And as of HoT, the Commander technically does "receive the Corruption power boost" due to their bond with Aurene, with an increasingly stronger bond as the story goes on (particularly beginning in Season 4).
  • 100-200m is a gross overstatement, and even if they stood up, they were very much knocked out and heavily injured for quite some time (and didn't take a direct hit and also had some good ol' fashion crystal protection magic).
  • If you're referring to Braham's bow, that technically wasn't designed to kill Elder Dragons, but specifically enchanted with the specific weakness of
    one
    Elder Dragon, which is not Aurene, so it's no more effective against Aurene-bonded Commander than any other fire-enchanted weapon.

Probably 80% of the Commander's strength come from their allies or bond with Aurene, lorewise.

Though, yes, the Commander is indeed a beast, capable of things normal Tyrians aren't, like all of Dragon's Watch and Destiny's Edge.

I can agree on Point 1 and 3 but I still think Point 2 is one of the most impressive feats the commander has to show.

Even with crystal magic helping.

Crashing into a wall with like 200mph (roughly 100m flied in roughly a second) and still standing up after.

(With probably many broken bones)

Even if you lowball this, it's still insane.

You could argue about the distance but it is just number juggling depending if we use ingame or scall the distance up to match the lore.

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@"Veprovina.4876" said:Why can't i spam portals like Kasmeer can? Or summon hordes of illusions that are actually pretty tough and damaging?Or snap my fingers (or point at people?) like Jennah and people just die? Or create Feedback dome around a whole city?Or disguise myself whenever i want for as long as i want?

Not to mention tons of other Mesmer powers that seemingly every NPC Mesmer has except the player?

This is a lore thread so please don't tell me "gameplay reasons". Yeah, i know, obviously.But let's "lore this up", like, is there a legitimate reason they're all so powerful but the Commander (if Mesmer) isn't?Or does the Commander have some tricks up their sleeve that others don't so it evens the power and makes them just as powerful as others?

What could be the in universe reason for it? Or is the Commander just as powerful, but in a different way?What are some displays of Mesmer powers that you recall are way more powerful than Commander's? Cause i couldn't remember them all.

What even are Mesmers? Just mages with a specialization in magic or are they something else?I vaguely recall reading somewhere that everyone in Tyria uses magic, even Warriors, that all skills are basically magic, only used in "that particular context".If so... What is everything? :smiley:

So... Opinions? Facts? Anything?I'm interested in this. :smile:

A while ago I developed a theory about mesmers, the possibility that they are uniquely bound to Lyssa and not only because she is described as the patron goddess of the mesmer profession. I think that their perception of reality may reflect and influence Lyssa's own. So, if Lyssa is asleep, it stands to reason that mesmers' powers will be contained by her unconscious. I propose that, of the various magical genes scattered throughout Tyrian populations (note: another theory), the only one capable of destabilising Lyssa's slumber is the Margonite gene. In the Orrian History Scrolls, Abbadon, once the patron god of the Margonites (those humans in which the Margonite gene was dominant), is said to be the only god who remembers what Lyssa "helped" all of her other fellow deities "forget".

How does this all relate to mesmers? I believe that a mesmer's power levels are inversely proportional to the strength of the Margonite gene present within them. A mesmer with a weaker or nonexistent Margonite gene will appear to be more powerful than a mesmer with a present, stronger gene. This is a reaction of Lyssa's unconscious mind to the trauma contained within the memories of spells cast, the memories that those carrying the Margonite gene can tap into.

I think that the Chosen of Krytan humanity, selected and sacrificed in GW1, were mesmers carrying a unique combination of both the mesmer gene and the Margonite gene. Saul D'Alessio's self-awakening represented a point at which his Margonite heritage allowed him to break free from the hold Lyssa's mind had over him. Anyhow, like the Chosen of GW1, the PC also appears to have the Gift of True sight, albeit dormant. The question, then, is what this means?

Canonically, I believe that the PC is a mesmer (note: that doesn't mean that they can't adopt a different profession) whose abilities have been heavily regulated by Lyssa's unconscious mind. A handful of NPCs who are similarly gifted accompany him or her. Overseeing them is Aurene, herself a projection of Lyssa's mind. Together, they will heal the goddess's mind and help her to safely awaken from her dream.

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