Condi is overtuned in smal scale and at same time usless in zergs.

[TheOneWhoSighs.7513]

@UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

@"TheOneWhoSighs.7513" said:4 stat gear isn't power creep. It's literally just streamlined stats. If they didn't release 4 stat gear, they would've just released more 3 stat gear to cover the gaps.They released 4 stat gear almost as a kindness, since it generally gets what you want as a player stat wise, without needing to min/max "Oh I need X on my helmet, Y on my shoulders, Z on my backpiece".

Actually it is more the opposite and min/maxing requires the use of 4-stat gear, because you will always end up with better overall stats than with 3-stat gear (unless it is a very specialized build, eg. full zerk for maximum dmg). It is

not

possible to replicate 4-stat gear by mixing 3-stat gear.

Min/Maxing doesn't require better overall stats. It requires better specific stats. The 50ish~ stats you might lose total don't matter compared to higher crit rates, more damage, more vitality, etc. Whatever your specific target is.

Condis ignore toughness, because toughness would be (even more) op otherwise.

Good? Maybe if it didn't ignore toughness you might actually see some bloody changes to the calculations. Right now, conditions are just an out to ignore the "problem" if you will.

Vitality does not mitigate damage. It increases time to kill (regardless of incoming dmg type - it is not better vs condis than vs power), but - unlike toughness and healing power - does not increase sustain in the long run. Therefor valk or barbarian would not be better vs condis than marauder, because you lose too much dmg for marginal gains

You'd lose very little damage. And for Valk, you might even gain some damage.

Also, vitality increases sustain in the long run. You can take more damage, but you can also take more healing. Meaning healing power is more valuable at the same time. Game has no overheal mechanic.

[mistsim.2748]

possibly dead in small fights, and for sure entirely useless in zergs if Resolution changes go through. Absolutely insane changes. Retaliation/Resolution is fairly spammable across many builds. It's basically Prot for condis. 

Edited April 30, 2021 by mistsim.2748

[Gryxis.6950]

hopefully they nerf resolution's duration on the skills that give it so it matches protection in uptime

[urd.8306]

Where is this huge condition buff in disguise? I really want to play a condi spec right now, but all I get is 7k+ hits from power builds melting easily through my Trailblazer gear while my conditions do nothing.

[Obtena.7952]

Good thing we can swap builds to suit the situation ... otherwise this might be an issue. 

[urd.8306]

You mean "good thing I can play power, because condi still is way too weak and the patch was a nerf"?

[Shroud.2307]

Everyone was all up in arms like "the Resistance change will ruin the game! Condi will dominate zergs!"

Weird how that didn't happen. It's almost like there is an excessive amount of Cleanse, Condition conversion, Condition damage reduction via Foods and Traits, and now a Boon that also reduces the damage.

Condi has pretty much entirely been relegated to very small scale >10 fights or 1v1 at this point. I'm both okay and upset with this because it only furthers the rigid meta, but at least Condi has a place somewhere.
Unless of course even one Scrapper or Firebrand are a part of that small fight in which case it doesn't.

[XenesisII.1540]

15 hours ago, diomache.9246 said:

Where is this huge condition buff in disguise? I really want to play a condi spec right now, but all I get is 7k+ hits from power builds melting easily through my Trailblazer gear while my conditions do nothing.

 

And there's still skills that can hit between 8-11k on trailblazers, imagine how much they're hitting on other power builds not running as much toughness. It's hilarious to see complaints about power vs conditions still with the amount of cleanses and boon applications around.

[Zepoolpe.9217]

For sure, 3-stats pieces are at a clear disadvantage vs 4-stats ones as:
1 - You have a higher stats budget.
2 - The trade off between dmg and survivability comes at a much lower cost for 4-stats than for 3-stats as you don't have to forgo completely a stat, you just reduce slightly it's weight in your piece stat budget (eg: Berserker/Valkirie vs Marauder).

 

But that in itself is not the root of the problem. The problem comes from the number of stats needed for a optimum build in the different roles (Power DD, Condi DD & Support):
1 - Power DD: 3 stats (Power, Precision, Ferocity)
2 - Condi DD: 2 stats (Condi dmg, Expertise)
3 - Support: 2 stats (Healing, Concentration)

And that's where the problem is: you can run a tanky yet fully optimised stats budget for a Condi DD or Support role thanks to the likes of TB and Minstrel. That being said for Condi DD, this issue was already existing with 3-stats pieces as Condi dmg is the most important one of the 2 (Dire).

 

It's not really a problem when you are talking zerg fights, but it is a huge imbalance for smallscale/roaming as you end up fighting groups that are running setups like 1 or 2 tanky condi DD and 3 tanky supports and you need to outnumber them 2:1 and be highly coordinated to be able to get them (you know them they are easy to spot: they have brightly colored armor pieces and post vids on YT with "OUTNUMBERED" in the title and the testament to their skills is that as soon as one of their support dies, or if you meet them on a 1v1, they melt like butter).

 

If you add on top of that the total mess that aNet did with their Condi vs Boons vs Boon corruption vs Boon conversion arm race that was triggered along the introduction of 4-stats pieces, half of smallscale/roaming fights are a mess (again, zerging is not impacted as much).
 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Zepoolpe.9217

[Dawdler.8521]

22 minutes ago, Zepoolpe.9217 said:

1 - Power DD: 3 stats (Power, Precision, Ferocity) because of roflstomp damage and exponential effectivness above 1v1.
2 - Condi DD: 3 stats (Toughness, Vitality, Condi dmg) because you need to survive long enough to deliver damage but you have no use for duration due to condi cleanse
3 - Support: 4 stats (Toughness, Vitality, Healing, Concentration) because you need to bunker while not doing any damage and healing power alone is nowhere near enough

 Corrected.

[Shroud.2307]

1 hour ago, Zepoolpe.9217 said:

For sure, 3-stats pieces are at a clear disadvantage vs 4-stats ones as:
1 - You have a higher stats budget.
2 - The trade off between dmg and survivability comes at a much lower cost for 4-stats than for 3-stats as you don't have to forgo completely a stat, you just reduce slightly it's weight in your piece stat budget (eg: Berserker/Valkirie vs Marauder).

 

But that in itself is not the root of the problem. The problem comes from the number of stats needed for a optimum build in the different roles (Power DD, Condi DD & Support):
1 - Power DD: 3 stats (Power, Precision, Ferocity)
2 - Condi DD: 2 stats (Condi dmg, Expertise)
3 - Support: 2 stats (Healing, Concentration)

And that's where the problem is: you can run a tanky yet fully optimised stats budget for a Condi DD or Support role thanks to the likes of TB and Minstrel. That being said for Condi DD, this issue was already existing with 3-stats pieces as Condi dmg is the most important one of the 2 (Dire).

 

It's not really a problem when you are talking zerg fights, but it is a huge imbalance for smallscale/roaming as you end up fighting groups that are running setups like 1 or 2 tanky condi DD and 3 tanky supports and you need to outnumber them 2:1 and be highly coordinated to be able to get them (you know them they are easy to spot: they have brightly colored armor pieces and post vids on YT with "OUTNUMBERED" in the title and the testament to their skills is that as soon as one of their support dies, or if you meet them on a 1v1, they melt like butter).

 

If you add on top of that the total mess that aNet did with their Condi vs Boons vs Boon corruption vs Boon conversion arm race that was triggered along the introduction of 4-stats pieces, half of smallscale/roaming fights are a mess (again, zerging is not impacted as much).
 

To avoid Conditions you can:
Cleanse, use Condition damage reduction Food, Traits, Utilities, have Resolution, have Light Aura, Barrier, dodge, block, Invuln

To avoid Power you can:
Dodge, Block, Barrier, Invuln, Protection, use damage reduction Foods, Traits, Utilities.

Power damage = applied instantly.
Condition damage = needs time.

Power stats that offer Concentration: 6
Condition stats that offer Concentration: 2
(This one is important because it means increased duration of things like Resolution, Protection, Might, etc.)

Power stats that offer Toughness or Vitality: 11
Condition stats that offer Toughness or Vitality: 7

At this point I'm just convinced people are being willfully ignorant to the fact that Condition builds are flat out bad in WvW with a handful of exceptions. Just because a couple builds are strong, and only so in small >10 scale or 1v1s, doesn't mean Condition stats or builds across the board are an issue, nor are they enjoying some kind of advantage that Power doesn't have.
Toughness and Vitality are necessary stats for Condition builds to work. I'm not going to pretend Trailblazer is a perfectly balanced stat, because it's not, but even with a huge pool of health and armor things like this can still occur. Can't very well attrition that.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[Zepoolpe.9217]

13 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Power damage = applied instantly.
Condition damage = needs time.

 

15 hours ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

 Corrected.

 

Except that you have some classes/builds that can burst you down with condis almost as quickly as power.
And even if they don't, many condi builds can apply condis faster than most builds can cleanse them, and often with a multitude of different condis so that a cleanse might not cleanse the most harmful ones.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not running an indictment against condi builds, but I'm just pointing out that instead of being what they should be (ie: applying a pressure damage) they have for some time now nearly the same burst as a good power build.
 

To give you an example: the other i was roaming (solo) on Desert BL and i saw down a cliff a 5 men (guild) party in a fight against a 12 men group of roamers. The 5 men group was made of 1 TB condi Renegade, 1 TB condi druid, 1 Support FB, 1 support Tempest, and 1 support Scrapper. Of the 12en group, I knew 7-8 of them to be good players, with 2-3 of them being players that quite often go in 1v3 or 1v4 and win.
Guess who was winning? Whatever focus of boon corruption and damage they had against that group they could make enough of a dent to one of them before themselves focused with chain CCs and high stakcs of highly damaging condis such a torment or burns hidden under layers of weaken, bleeds, poison, immo, vulnerability, etc...

I'm sorry, but in a 5v12, if the 5 men group is of average skill, and the a big part of the 12 men group is of higher skill level, the 5-men group should not be able to

 

Saying that "Power stats that offer Toughness or Vitality: 11 / Condition stats that offer Toughness or Vitality: 7" is laughable if you are not mentioning that none of the power set give you both optimum dmg stats AND Tough/Vitality when Dire/TB gives you all.

Yes, Condi (and support) build should have easier access to stats sets that give you a better combination of survivability and dmg (or support) than power, but right now condi and support can do that at an extremely low trade-off cost when power has a high one: I'm just saying that either the trade-off cost for condi and support should be increased OR the effectiveness of such builds should be decreased.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Zepoolpe.9217

[Salt Mode.3780]

Again if both condi and power required the same stats power will ALWAYS win the trade off. 

Instant DMG > Rev Up DMG 

Ignorance is a bliss.

 

[Dawdler.8521]

11 minutes ago, Zepoolpe.9217 said:

To give you an example: the other i was roaming (solo) on Desert BL and i saw down a cliff a 5 men (guild) party in a fight against a 12 men group of roamers. The 5 men group was made of 1 TB condi Renegade, 1 TB condi druid, 1 Support FB, 1 support Tempest, and 1 support Scrapper. Of the 12en group, I knew 7-8 of them to be good players, with 2-3 of them being players that quite often go in 1v3 or 1v4 and win.
Guess who was winning? Whatever focus of boon corruption and damage they had against that group they could make enough of a dent to one of them before themselves focused with chain CCs and high stakcs of highly damaging condis such a torment or burns hidden under layers of weaken, bleeds, poison, immo, vulnerability, etc...

I'm sorry, but in a 5v12, if the 5 men group is of average skill, and the a big part of the 12 men group is of higher skill level, the 5-men group should not be able to

So how exactly do you know the 5 was "average"?

 

Also it is incredibly amusing that people claim only numbers matter, but then somehow examples like this is used to claim something is OP.

[Salt Mode.3780]

20 minutes ago, Zepoolpe.9217 said:

To give you an example: the other i was roaming (solo) on Desert BL and i saw down a cliff a 5 men (guild) party in a fight against a 12 men group of roamers. The 5 men group was made of 1 TB condi Renegade, 1 TB condi druid, 1 Support FB, 1 support Tempest, and 1 support Scrapper. Of the 12en group, I knew 7-8 of them to be good players, with 2-3 of them being players that quite often go in 1v3 or 1v4 and win.
Guess who was winning? Whatever focus of boon corruption and damage they had against that group they could make enough of a dent to one of them before themselves focused with chain CCs and high stakcs of highly damaging condis such a torment or burns hidden under layers of weaken, bleeds, poison, immo, vulnerability, etc...

I'm sorry, but in a 5v12, if the 5 men group is of average skill, and the a big part of the 12 men group is of higher skill level, the 5-men group should not be able to

Sorry this was to funny, first the biggest problem the obvious supports they have in the 5 man, I would say it wasn't condi's that was carrying the group it was the supports. 2nd, if your 12 man group had even 1 support the outcome will be favorable to the 12 man. 3rd If 12 people learned to focus down the supports the fight would end drastically sooner. 

This isn't a condi issue this is the reason why kitten keeps getting nerfed cuz people don't know how to play the game.

[Zyreva.1078]

12 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

So how exactly do you know the 5 was "average"?

 

They were using condi builds. Good players don't do that, don't you know?

Edited June 2, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[Zepoolpe.9217]

27 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

So how exactly do you know the 5 was "average"?

 Because the same evening I met 3 of them (first the renegade alone, then the druid and the fb together) and i beat them both times relatively easily and since I'm certainly not claiming to be a top of range duelist, that's why I'm saying that they are average (at least 3 out of 5).
 

18 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Sorry this was to funny, first the biggest problem the obvious supports they have in the 5 man, I would say it wasn't condi's that was carrying the group it was the supports. 2nd, if your 12 man group had even 1 support the outcome will be favorable to the 12 man. 3rd If 12 people learned to focus down the supports the fight would end drastically sooner. 

This isn't a condi issue this is the reason why kitten keeps getting nerfed cuz people don't know how to play the game.

I'm not saying it was the condi that where caring the group, I'm just saying that right now, with the current condi bunker and support bunker trend you have, you end up with a small group concentrating so much heals, cleanses, boonshare and prema-superspeed on a bunkered stats sets that it takes a much bigger group to take them out and that's poitning out to a clear balance issue.

 

37 minutes ago, Salt Mode.3780 said:

Again if both condi and power required the same stats power will ALWAYS win the trade off.

i never said that condi and power should require the same stats, I'm saying that the trade-off should be adjusted so that the cost discrepancy is not that high.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Zepoolpe.9217

[Dawdler.8521]

5 minutes ago, Zepoolpe.9217 said:

 Because the same evening I met 3 of them (first the renegade alone, then the druid and the fb together) and i beat them both times relatively easily and since I'm certainly not claiming to be a top of range duelist, that's why I'm saying that they are average (at least 3 out of 5).

So you did just fine 1v1 and 1v2 against them yet your 12 people of "higher skill level" failed. So... where you power or condi? Because if I would guess, I'd say... power.

Do you not see how silly this example is for the argument you're trying to make?

[Zyreva.1078]

15 minutes ago, Zepoolpe.9217 said:

 Because the same evening I met 3 of them (first the renegade alone, then the druid and the fb together) and i beat them both times relatively easily and since I'm certainly not claiming to be a top of range duelist, that's why I'm saying that they are average (at least 3 out of 5)
 

I'm not saying it was the condi that where caring the group, I'm just saying that right now, with the current condi bunker and support bunker trend you have, you end up with a small group concentrating so much heals, cleanses, boonshare and prema-superspeed on a bunkered stats sets that it takes a much bigger group to take them out and that's poitning out to a clear balance issue.

 

i never said that condi and power should require the same stats, I'm saying that the trade-off should be adjusted so that the cost discrepancy is not that high.

So an average player can beat other average players on condi builds easily 1vs1 and even 1vs2 - which is where condi builds are supposed to shine - yet somehow those condi builds are op?

 

You also mention "heals, cleanses, boonshare and prema-superspeed" being the real op stuff, yet condis are still the problem somehow?

Also, chances are high those condi players weren't even running tb, as cele tends to be better nowadays and they would probably also have won, even if they were running power dps instead of condi dps (while keeping their supports ofc), due to having the better comp (supports!), coordination and most likely also being better players (because good players don't tend to lose fights when heavily outnumbering their opposition).

 

 

Edited June 2, 2021 by UmbraNoctis.1907

[AliamRationem.5172]

1 hour ago, Zepoolpe.9217 said:

 

 

Except that you have some classes/builds that can burst you down with condis almost as quickly as power.
And even if they don't, many condi builds can apply condis faster than most builds can cleanse them, and often with a multitude of different condis so that a cleanse might not cleanse the most harmful ones.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not running an indictment against condi builds, but I'm just pointing out that instead of being what they should be (ie: applying a pressure damage) they have for some time now nearly the same burst as a good power build.
 

To give you an example: the other i was roaming (solo) on Desert BL and i saw down a cliff a 5 men (guild) party in a fight against a 12 men group of roamers. The 5 men group was made of 1 TB condi Renegade, 1 TB condi druid, 1 Support FB, 1 support Tempest, and 1 support Scrapper. Of the 12en group, I knew 7-8 of them to be good players, with 2-3 of them being players that quite often go in 1v3 or 1v4 and win.
Guess who was winning? Whatever focus of boon corruption and damage they had against that group they could make enough of a dent to one of them before themselves focused with chain CCs and high stakcs of highly damaging condis such a torment or burns hidden under layers of weaken, bleeds, poison, immo, vulnerability, etc...

I'm sorry, but in a 5v12, if the 5 men group is of average skill, and the a big part of the 12 men group is of higher skill level, the 5-men group should not be able to

 

Saying that "Power stats that offer Toughness or Vitality: 11 / Condition stats that offer Toughness or Vitality: 7" is laughable if you are not mentioning that none of the power set give you both optimum dmg stats AND Tough/Vitality when Dire/TB gives you all.

Yes, Condi (and support) build should have easier access to stats sets that give you a better combination of survivability and dmg (or support) than power, but right now condi and support can do that at an extremely low trade-off cost when power has a high one: I'm just saying that either the trade-off cost for condi and support should be increased OR the effectiveness of such builds should be decreased.

 

There's an easy solution that nobody actually wants: nerf the ever-living kitten out of cleansing across the board.  If you make it so that conditions when applied stay applied, then it will no longer be appropriate to have conditions that burst.

 

My prediction is that most players will hate this.  It means when you eat a condi wombo combo, you actually die from it for a change!

[Zepoolpe.9217]

8 minutes ago, UmbraNoctis.1907 said:

So an average player can beat other average players on condi builds easily 1vs1 and even 1vs2 - which is where condi builds are supposed to shine - yet somehow those condi builds are op?

 

You also mention "heals, cleanses, boonshare and prema-superspeed" being the real op stuff, yet condis are still the problem somehow?

Also, chances are high those condi players weren't even running tb, as cele tends to be better nowadays and they would probably also have won, even if they were running power dps instead of condi dps (while keeping their supports ofc).

 

 

Lol mate... i think you should read my post a bit better: I'm speaking more about condis because the topic of the OP was about condis, but i've mentioned support quite a lot too.
Also, they were most likely running running TB because it was before the (very recent) change on cele.

 

14 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

So you did just fine 1v1 and 1v2 against them yet your 12 people of "higher skill level" failed. So... where you power or condi? Because if I would guess, I'd say... power.

Do you not see how silly this example is for the argument you're trying to make?

I never said 12 people of higher skill level, i said that of the 12 players fighting, i knew 7-8 of them that were good players (ie: they know their class, and in a fight they win some, but also lose some), and of these 7-8, 2-3 that are a level above the rest.

Also, what that example shows is that if a group combines supports with bunker stats it is make them hard to kill because a) bunker stats means reduced damage taken, b) support means that this "lower" damage is quickly nullified by heals and boons.
c) they are running with all possible boons in combat d) if their boons get corrupted, it is immediately cleansed and replaced or even converted back to boons.
OK, that's the synergy between the supports and the bunker stats.
So a DPS that is running a bunker set, is he most likely to go Power or Condi? Condi for sure, otherwise his damage output would be ridiculously low... and most likely one of the 2 or 3 condi class/builds that combine high damage condis such as torment or burns and a big spectrum of type of condi to cover the most damaging ones.
So that's the synergy between the bunker stats and the condi damage.
 

Remove one component of that synergy and the whole thing crumble, which is what happen when you met them outside of that group.

Yes, Support must have survivability stats to function, and yes condi DPS needs to have survivability stats to function, but the cost of this survivability should be adjusted: it would have little effect on large scale fights, but brings more balance to small scale fights.

[Zepoolpe.9217]

29 minutes ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

 

There's an easy solution that nobody actually wants: nerf the ever-living kitten out of cleansing across the board.  If you make it so that conditions when applied stay applied, then it will no longer be appropriate to have conditions that burst.

 

My prediction is that most players will hate this.  It means when you eat a condi wombo combo, you actually die from it for a change!

It's certainly interesting... but then maybe expertise and/or condi stacks should be somehow nerfed and/or reworked too.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Zepoolpe.9217

[Dawdler.8521]

7 hours ago, Zepoolpe.9217 said:

I never said 12 people of higher skill level, i said that of the 12 players fighting, i knew 7-8 of them that were good players (ie: they know their class, and in a fight they win some, but also lose some), and of these 7-8, 2-3 that are a level above the rest.

No you only said 12 people with a big part of higher skill level. And now you go into details just showing what this is really about - only a couple maybe was good in your opinion. It wouldnt even surprise me if a couple or 4 in this group where effectivly crippled because... they where running TB condi. And that group kept cleansing.

 

Yes, your example shows:

- An organized guild is superior to random groups

- An organized guild can beat forces 2 times larger or even more

- The synergy and organization of that guild can beat "higher skill level" players

- Support is vital in sustaining outnumbered

 

It has literally nothing to do with either power or condi damage. Best case scenario, you're arguing that support is OP and lay the blaim on condi damage.

 

I'd like to ask a theoretical question, a thought experiment if you will: 

 

If there had been 5 of you, fully synched up and organized on discord, presumably on the power builds that previously beat them 1v1 and 1v2 but you didnt answer whether it was the case...

 

Do you think you could have won?

Edited June 3, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[Jables.4659]

On 4/17/2021 at 8:25 AM, Dawdler.8521 said:

 condi rev may lay claim to being OP but not due to its condi dmg, due to the kitten torment runes

This has always irritated me.  When building a hybrid Mesmer, I'm forced to run quite a bit of Vipers since my cDamage is made up of Confusion, Torment, Bleed, and Burn whereas my hybrid Rev can substitute Viper for Grieving while being carried by +Torment Duration Buffs.