Dance of Death is broken

[Siegwald.2170]

the trait dance of death is totaly overperforming in pve open world, due to the insane sustain it provides you can facetank every hp in hot, you dont even need any other trait line than devastation (I easily soloed hot champions with only devastation)

even in fractals and raids it has comparable dps to swift termination, that is supposed to be the pure dps trait option

 

my sugestion is to change the aplication of battle scars from when you apply vulnerability to when you disable, keep the 100% heal increase when low health

 

[Virdo.1540]

Then nobody would use it anymore. It is already the only battle scar trait that can compete with the other possible choices.

 

The only thing they could do is simply weaken their damage by max. 20%.

Or they finally start adjusting traits like "Swift termination" ,so that not every class as the exact same choosable trait.

 

Its the same case with Power Eles and "Bolt to the Heart" & "Fresh air"

Edited May 6, 2021 by Virdo.1540

[Siegwald.2170]

it would still be used for the sustain, while swift termination used for the damage

[Buran.3796]

9 hours ago, Siegwald.2170 said:

the trait dance of death is totaly overperforming in pve open world, due to the insane sustain it provides you can facetank every hp in hot, you dont even need any other trait line than devastation (I easily soloed hot champions with only devastation)

even in fractals and raids it has comparable dps to swift termination, that is supposed to be the pure dps trait option

 

 

  It makes power Revs "close to be able to do" 75-80% of the single target damage that a condi Rev can do. Meanwhile those condi builds not only are superior in single target dps but also way better dealing damage against crowds (and with tormenting runes the more foes you fight, the more sustain you have). So I don't see nothing overpowered with Dance of Death. Recently did again the HoT & PoF maps with a core Rev and while I completed 90% of them with a power build I swaped to condi with 3 hero points due I knew that under some stages just works better (you keep doing damage and healing when you are using defensive skills).

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Personally I think the on-vuln application should stay and has really great intentional synergy with different aspects of the class throughout multiple specs. However, I do agree with you that there is a pretty clear issue when DoD competes in DPS with a pure DPS trait that offers no sustain. That just simply shouldn't be the case. I don't think that really means that the trait requires a rework, but moreso that it could just use some numbers tuning. No need to really overthink what is IMO a really cool, thematic, and well-executed trait.

Edited May 7, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908

[Siegwald.2170]

2 hours ago, Buran.3796 said:

  It makes power Revs "close to be able to do" 75-80% of the single target damage that a condi Rev can do. Meanwhile those condi builds not only are superior in single target dps but also way better dealing damage against crowds (and with tormenting runes the more foes you fight, the more sustain you have). So I don't see nothing overpowered with Dance of Death. Recently did again the HoT & PoF maps with a core Rev and while I completed 90% of them with a power build I swaped to condi with 3 hero points due I knew that under some stages just works better (you keep doing damage and healing when you are using defensive skills).

even some condi builds are using dance of death dealing a slightly less damage than the invocation version, but with far more sustain

[Siegwald.2170]

2 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

Personally I think the on-vuln application should stay and has really great intentional synergy with different aspects of the class throughout multiple specs. However, I do agree with you that there is a pretty clear issue when DoD competes in DPS with a pure DPS trait that offers no sustain. That just simply shouldn't be the case. I don't think that really means that the trait requires a rework, but moreso that it could just use some numbers tuning. No need to really overthink what is IMO a really cool, thematic, and well-executed trait.

well you convinced me about the vulnerability application, it has great sinergy with other traits

maybe the way is tuning down the healing part of battle scars

298 per hit, even becoming 596 at low health, its a lot of healing, i think its a bit overtuned

[Infusion.7149]

It's already split for PVP/WVW so I don't know what this suggestion is supposed to achieve? The game isn't balanced around openworld.

PVE:
Life Siphon Damage: 298 +(0.1 * Power)
Life Siphon Healing: 298 +(0.1 * Healing Power)

PVP/WVW:
Life Siphon Damage: 58 +(0.003 * Power)
Life Siphon Healing: 58 + (0.003 * Healing Power)

For reference , reaper has 5% damage to heal , thief has a 10% damage to heal that goes to 20% with fury, scrapper is 15% damage to barrier (capped at 50% max HP).

Edited May 7, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[lunaeclipse.6843]

The game isn't balanced around Hero Points in Open World PvE.

 

This is a non-issue.

[Buran.3796]

9 hours ago, Siegwald.2170 said:

even some condi builds are using dance of death dealing a slightly less damage than the invocation version, but with far more sustain

   You convinced me: Swift Termination and Brutality need a buff in damage. But won't happen due EoD Rev spec will probably be built around a power dps concept.

 

@Ertrak: the game isn't balanced. Balance means constant support in form of patches and monitoring on what's happening in every front (open world PvE, instanced PvE, PvP and WvW... ) and you only see that kind of constant support in top competitive games in Twitch as LoL, Apex, Valorant, DOTA 2, Warzone, etc. And even then you can argue that part of the "balance" in those games moves around constantly changing things making some things op for a brief period constantly shifting the meta.

[Thornwolf.9721]

I mean really who cares about open world and how strong this trait is? Power Rev already doesn't preform well enough in Open world PVE as admitted to by A-net. So let it have its toys until a time where they can address and make power rev, fun and strong without having either busted traits OR worthless ones.

[Generic Player.6452]

🙂 (i had wrong forum tab open and posted totally unrelevant info before)

Edited July 9, 2021 by La belladone.6579

[Virdo.1540]

Oh dance of death is broken? Is there anything thats not broken? (like shroud, barrier, Pets, towers, clones, banners....)

[ArthurDent.9538]

The biggest issue with dance of death is how ice razor's ire produces 40 stacks of vuln nearly every 10 secs while consuming 20 of them so they mostly don't get wasted. Its still pretty strong on builds without kalla but at least swift termination is the higher dps option in that case. Battle scars could lose some more damage/healing but could we please get an actually decent power dps build (that's not renegade) instead of just leaving power rev as low damage and then also with low sustain.

[Virdo.1540]

8 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

The biggest issue with dance of death is how ice razor's ire produces 40 stacks of vuln nearly every 10 secs while consuming 20 of them so they mostly don't get wasted. Its still pretty strong on builds without kalla but at least swift termination is the higher dps option in that case. Battle scars could lose some more damage/healing but could we please get an actually decent power dps build (that's not renegade) instead of just leaving power rev as low damage and then also with low sustain.

so in short:     Dance of Death isnt that broken. Renegade is (like always). & the other trait options are worse than DoD.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Virdo.1540

[UncreativeGreen.2019]

Just a thought, but they could add back the 10 vuln per hit of that double swipe on the active of the might facet (tweak application numbers for pvp modes). They destroyed it awhile back to try to reduce the rev’s burst in pvp environments, but that was when they refused to split things. It’d help glint a bit more in the dps department, but base rev is still left out in the cold with just sword spam and trait interaction for vuln.

[SirTomato.3627]

Icerazor's Ire is what make battle scars so broken. And problem not only about sustain but also DPS since scars account for a 1/4 or even 1/3 of the total DPS. Do not forget that Viper gear boost it's damage even more because scars have power scaling and Viper have a lot of it.

Nowadays condi renegade have best benchmark on small hitbox and i suspect that battle scars has a great influence on this.

On 5/7/2021 at 7:20 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

It's already split for PVP/WVW so I don't know what this suggestion is supposed to achieve? The game isn't balanced around openworld.

PVE:
Life Siphon Damage: 298 +(0.1 * Power)
Life Siphon Healing: 298 +(0.1 * Healing Power)

PVP/WVW:
Life Siphon Damage: 58 +(0.003 * Power)
Life Siphon Healing: 58 + (0.003 * Healing Power)

For reference , reaper has 5% damage to heal , thief has a 10% damage to heal that goes to 20% with fury, scrapper is 15% damage to barrier (capped at 50% max HP).

 

Open world make up most of the game. And pvp it's already different game placed inside the game judging by how differently skills work compared to the rest of the game.

Also Thief have to sacrifice 250 ferocity for that kind of healing. Reaper cannot be healed while in shroud and that 5% is tiny while outside of it. And finally scrapper was designed as defensive spec from the very start.
Condi renegade dont have any downsides by using Dance of Death. Even make it stronger in term of DPS while providing unhealthy sustain.

Edited July 14, 2021 by SirTomato.3627

[Infusion.7149]

They've never balanced around openworld. If they did weaver would have more personal might generation and engineer would have more fury when not spamming explosions.

In addition, battle scars was already nerfed in May 25 update (after this thread's creation) so unless you want there to be a further hit to power revenants in PvE , any condi renegade nerf should focus on condi ren only.
 

Quote

Battle Scars: Base healing reduced by one third in PvE only.

 

Edited July 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Icetea.3204]

3 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

They've never balanced around openworld. If they did weaver would have more personal might generation and engineer would have more fury when not spamming explosions.

In addition, battle scars was already nerfed in May 25 update (after this thread's creation) so unless you want there to be a further hit to power revenants in PvE , any condi renegade nerf should focus on condi ren only

 

 

For me it's not about it being a nerf to power when it should be to condi. I think that a sustain trait should never be the top dps choice as well.

[Infusion.7149]

4 hours ago, Icetea.3204 said:

 

For me it's not about it being a nerf to power when it should be to condi. I think that a sustain trait should never be the top dps choice as well.

It isn't on herald, the herald build uses Swift Termination and so does the fractal alac renegade. Also in PVP/WVW Swift Termination is chosen for spike damage, the damage/heal on Battle Scars is minimal due to skill split.

If the so-called problem is the proc on Battle Scars it can have a minor ICD (not 1 second but more like 1/4) or Icerazor/Citadel Bombardment can have lower number of hits totaling the same coefficient. Likewise if condi is the problem it could trade some condition damage for power so that Devastation is fully a power traitline.

Edited July 14, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

32 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Icerazor/Citadel Bombardment can have lower number of hits totaling the same coefficient. Likewise if condi is the problem it could trade some condition damage for power so that Devastation is fully a power traitline.

Considering the condi build that utilizes Dance of Death for 7% of its total damage doesn't use Citadel Bombardment at all there's no need to advocate for a nerf to that skill.  The answer to making Devastation more in-line with Invocation is simply to cut Icerazor's vuln output from 40 to 20 (1 application per hit instead of 2 with increased vuln duration if this is considered too high of a nerf).  They also could have just not added "% All Damage" to Devastation at all and we wouldn't even be having this problem in the first place

Edited July 14, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Icetea.3204]

11 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

It isn't on herald, the herald build uses Swift Termination and so does the fractal alac renegade. Also in PVP/WVW Swift Termination is chosen for spike damage, the damage/heal on Battle Scars is minimal due to skill split.

If the so-called problem is the proc on Battle Scars it can have a minor ICD (not 1 second but more like 1/4) or Icerazor/Citadel Bombardment can have lower number of hits totaling the same coefficient. Likewise if condi is the problem it could trade some condition damage for power so that Devastation is fully a power traitline.

I said should never be the top dps choice. The fact that it's not on herald or in fractals doesn't take away from that. It's still the top dps choice on renegade in raids on almost all bosses, which, like I said, shouldn't be the case for a sustain trait.

Condi is definitely a problem and I don't agree on how they nerfed power more than condi with the changes to devastation.

[SeTect.5918]

46 minutes ago, Icetea.3204 said:

I said should never be the top dps choice. The fact that it's not on herald or in fractals doesn't take away from that. It's still the top dps choice on renegade in raids on almost all bosses, which, like I said, shouldn't be the case for a sustain trait.

Condi is definitely a problem and I don't agree on how they nerfed power more than condi with the changes to devastation.

Thats not only as revenant like that...normally i dont just look to benchmarks but...look at it...condi Herald does more dmg than power herald...condi reaper does more dmg than power reaper...

They nerfed power everywhere and buffed condi. Even on e-specs or specs that focus on power fully. 

 

However, that trait should be used as a heal trait and not as a dps trait. But lets not kill power pls. 

I would like to see removing the condi buff of condi on devastation...you know...the one that increases damage for each weapon. That makes condi revenants not using a power spec for condi and it even deals most dmg and grants best sustain of all rev specs. 

I also would reduce battle scar damage and buff the power coefficient. Since power revenant has more power than vipers revenant.

3rd step would be to increase the strike damage bonus per weapon to 5% and the "Deal more damage when enemy is above 80% hp blabla" from 20% to 25%. So like it was before. Or/And put down the health threshold from 80% to 75%.

Last Step is to Reinforced Potency, a trait of Herald. Should also increase life siphon damage. Just to come closer to condi herald dps. 

Edit:
And icerazors does 1 vuln. stack per hit now instead of 2. The removed stacks will be added to sword/staff/hammer skills where they are unable to get for condi renegade. 

Edited July 15, 2021 by SeTect.5918

[Icetea.3204]

1 hour ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Thats not only as revenant like that...normally i dont just look to benchmarks but...look at it...condi Herald does more dmg than power herald...condi reaper does more dmg than power reaper...

They nerfed power everywhere and buffed condi. Even on e-specs or specs that focus on power fully. 

 

However, that trait should be used as a heal trait and not as a dps trait. But lets not kill power pls. 

I would like to see removing the condi buff of condi on devastation...you know...the one that increases damage for each weapon. That makes condi revenants not using a power spec for condi and it even deals most dmg and grants best sustain of all rev specs. 

I also would reduce battle scar damage and buff the power coefficient. Since power revenant has more power than vipers revenant.

3rd step would be to increase the strike damage bonus per weapon to 5% and the "Deal more damage when enemy is above 80% hp blabla" from 20% to 25%. So like it was before. Or/And put down the health threshold from 80% to 75%.

Last Step is to Reinforced Potency, a trait of Herald. Should also increase life siphon damage. Just to come closer to condi herald dps. 

Edit:
And icerazors does 1 vuln. stack per hit now instead of 2. The removed stacks will be added to sword/staff/hammer skills where they are unable to get for condi renegade. 

Changing swift termination from 20% below 50% to flat 10% would already be nice.

You probably don't even have to add the stacks from icerazors to other weapons. At least not to sword.

You will always use the newest battle scars stack and on power you waste quite a lot of them right now.

[SeTect.5918]

16 minutes ago, Icetea.3204 said:

Changing swift termination from 20% below 50% to flat 10% would already be nice.

You probably don't even have to add the stacks from icerazors to other weapons. At least not to sword.

You will always use the newest battle scars stack and on power you waste quite a lot of them right now.

Well that change of swift termination would just change nothing. I mean 20% under 50% IS flat 10% actually. I mean the overall damage stays same and changes just nothing.

I don't think that so many get wasted right now of icerazors because it does 20 hits so 20 of the 40 stacks are already used. Sword 4 also uses a lot of them.

Tbh i did not even want to change a lot to that traits....but an idea would be to let Swift termination also increase life siphon damage or sth...i dont know...Or just decrease battle scars overall damage and buff other power coefficients of some weapon or utility skills so it stays the same but makes people use a damage trait for dps and a healing trait for sustain right?