How would you do an "easy mode" in raids?

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

We both know how (un)popular the dungeon story mode was.

I thought it was a good system, and I didn't even like dungeons.

 

Dungeons died because they gutted the rewards.

[Danger Ferret.6342]

On 5/6/2021 at 11:09 AM, Gudradain.3892 said:

Describe how you would implement "easy mode" in raiding.

For the sake of this discussion, please refrain to comment if all you want to say is that you are against "easy mode" in general. I'm aware that many raiders are opposed to an "easy mode" in raiding, myself included depending how it's implemented, but it's a request that is often coming back and it would be interesting to discuss what would be the best way to do it.

Instead, if you don't like a particular suggestion, describe why you feel that this particular suggestion would be a bad idea.

Thank you

The only experience I've had with a game that had different modes of difficulty for Raids based it on the level of the character. The level 6 RAID had mobs of level 6 opponents. You could select one mode easier and perhaps get mobs of level 5 opponents instead. Whatever a good solution for an easy mode Raid in GW2 turns out to be, I'm for it. As a newer player, it's kind of sad to drift past the entrance to dungeons and think to myself, "That looks like it used to be fun," or past Raid entrances because it's difficult to find a group who wants to Raid with you if you don't already know what you're doing.

 

An easy mode would be a great way to give us noobs a way to get up to speed and not be a burden on more experienced groups of players looking for new members. Someone suggested something like a single-player walkthrough mode as being a better alternative to watching YouTube videos to get down the mechanics. I don't know the Raids in GW2, but I'm not sure a single player could get Raid mechanics just by themselves, but some sort of heavily nerfed version with heavily nerfed rewards so it doesn't become an exploit seems like a good idea.

 

[Astralporing.1957]

3 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

I don't see how that matters when its job would be to ease the learning curve to enter regular riding as far as I understand.

 

Then why bring up dungeons? Their story mode has nothing to do with that.

[Sobx.1758]

17 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Then why bring up dungeons? Their story mode has nothing to do with that.

I didn't. But still he said what the story mode would be for, them being "popular or not" is irrelevant, it would be a tutorial, not something you'd repeatedly run.

[ArchonWing.9480]

Before Raids and Fractals, Dungeons were the place for high end pve. And like raids, the skill required for it vs open world is a massive difference.  So naturally they are comparable. Story mode would teach you about mechanics while not tossing you in the fire and of course, the story itself.

 

We need more stuff to bridge the gap. Yea, I know strikes exist, but it's not enough.

Plus it allows people to experience similar content while still playing casually.

 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[maddoctor.2738]

7 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Before Raids and Fractals, Dungeons were the place for high end pve.

 

Yes exactly. Dungeons in Guild Wars 2 were seen as really hard (or next to impossible) by the majority of players. There were even cries to make an easy mode for them. Yet some months later (without Arenanet massively nerfing anything, and without any expansion power creep) dungeons turned into an easy mode. From hardcore/really difficult content to easy mode without ANY developer intervention. Simply because the community got better at playing this game.

[Astralporing.1957]

9 minutes ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

 

Yes exactly. Dungeons in Guild Wars 2 were seen as really hard (or next to impossible) by the majority of players. There were even cries to make an easy mode for them. Yet some months later (without Arenanet massively nerfing anything, and without any expansion power creep) dungeons turned into an easy mode. From hardcore/really difficult content to easy mode without ANY developer intervention. Simply because the community got better at playing this game.

No. Simply because the people that were complaining initially finally made it to level 80, and geared up their characters. People trying to do ascalonian catacombs at level 45 in a mix of mostly random blue/green gear would still find it hard even today. Well, most people anyway.

[maddoctor.2738]

1 minute ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

No. Simply because the people that were complaining initially finally made it to level 80, and geared up their characters. People trying to do ascalonian catacombs at level 45 in a mix of mostly random blue/green gear would still find it hard even today. Well, most people anyway.

First: the same issue was true in level 80 dungeons

Second: players started running level 80 dungeons solo or without good gear

 

It's not gear that turned dungeons very easy from really hard, but player skill. And finally figuring out builds that work (creating the meta)

[Astralporing.1957]

15 minutes ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

First: the same issue was true in level 80 dungeons

Well, perception of Arah being difficult remained till dungeons were axed (although personally i think it wasn't really warranted, and was mostly caused by casual players going in with strats that more hardcore players created, and thus were not really designed for them). You were talking about those dungeons that turned in "easy mode" after few months though.

 

Quote

Second: players started running level 80 dungeons solo or without good gear

Have you considered the possibility that those were not the same players that complained about dungeons being too difficult? That people that started soloing dungeons were the same players that claimed they were too easy from the very beginning (because there were players like that as well)?

 

 

Quote

It's not gear that turned dungeons very easy from really hard, but player skill. And finally figuring out builds that work (creating the meta)

Let's just say that i disagree with you on that point. the timeframe you're talking about is exactly the timeframe where most casual players were still leveling and gearing up.

 

Remember, that in the first days of the game even frost maw event was considered to be a player killer (and, unlike fire elemental that really was overtuned and had broken scaling issues, that one was never nerfed as far as i remember). Simply, everything in this game is harder if you do it at lower levels and with lower level/quality gear (especially if it's gear from drops, randomly put together making no cohesive whole).

You can't just completely dirsregard that factor when it is impossible for it to not have a major impact on the issue we talk about.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[maddoctor.2738]

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You were talking about those dungeons that turned in "easy mode" after few months though.

At about November 2012 if I'm not mistaken. I can be wrong though.

 

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Have you considered the possibility that those were not the same players that complained about dungeons being too difficult? That people that started soloing dungeons were the same players that claimed they were too easy from the very beginning (because there were players like that as well)?

 

From a myriad of posts asking for an easy mode of dungeons, to none whatsoever, that's a massive difference. Plus I know quite a lot of players (including myself) that found dungeons exceptionally hard for a time, and then turned them into easy mode. And yes I'm talking about max level.

 

My first clear of Arah P4 (a level 80 dungeon) took 2 hours and 40 minutes, I even have that on video because it was a massive milestone for that group, we even felt proud about it. The same group (without changes to gear and obviously all still level 80) started clearing Arah P4 much much faster, second time was under 40 minutes and it kept going faster than that. Was the content nerfed? No. Did we use more powerful gear? In most cases no, but we started swapping weapons more as appropriate for a given encounter.

 

3 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

You can't just completely dirsregard that factor when it is impossible for it to not have a major impact on the issue we talk about.

 

And you can't completely disregard the player skill/ability factor either, which has a major impact on the issue we talk about, and I'd wager a guess a much higher impact than gear (or level) ever had on dungeons. Given how players finish them in green gear and/or solo/duo and so on.

 

There was a post that I remember, someone complaing about how hard the Path of Fire first instance is. Fortunately, it was someone with the intelligence to post their actual build to get valid feedback instead of just complaining about difficulty like 99.99% of complaints on these forums. Turned out he was using a dual sword Warrior (condi weapons) with full Berserker stats. He also had Shout traits selected, but only had Signets as slotted skills. In other words, a total mess.

 

Behind most of the complaints about difficulty are players like the above. They are max level, they have everything unlocked, they use the best possible gear. But they use the wrong gear stats, the wrong skills/weapons/traits for the encounter or they simply don't know or can't perform the mechanics properly.

 

I don't think this is a game you can be carried by your gear,  take a naked player and they can perform much better than a full legendary player. And all I said is that is true today (in Raids, Fractals etc) and of course used to be true with Dungeons.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

At about November 2012 if I'm not mistaken. I can be wrong though.

Well, at November 2012 i had no fully geared character yet. And i know that, as far as casual/semi casual players go, i was still ahead of the pack (all my friends and guildmembers, for example, were behind me in both leveling and gearing up). Frankly, it's not surprising many people would consider dungeons to be hard at this point.

 

1 hour ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

From a myriad of posts asking for an easy mode of dungeons, to none whatsoever, that's a massive difference.

If it was the levels/gear that was the issue, like i think it was, it's not surprising to things to turn out this way, don't you think? If it was a case of gaining skill/experience, people would keep complaining for far, far longer than that, and you would not see such massive decrease in complains so fast.

In fact, some (albeit very diminished) complains did continue for a long time, up until dungeons were axed - and those were probably indeed skill-based.

 

1 hour ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

Plus I know quite a lot of players (including myself) that found dungeons exceptionally hard for a time, and then turned them into easy mode. And yes I'm talking about max level.

I know that there was specifically one point that made dungeons so for me. The patch that removed in-combat ressing/waypointing, but nerfed the bosses to compensate. Dungeons felt much easier after that one. Don't remember when it specifically happened though.

I remember specifically doing CoE before and after that change, (few days apart), and the experience in Subject Alpha fight was completely different. It turned overnight from an encounter that required multiple wipes and ress-rushing strat to pass into oneshot.

Perhaps you may be referring to that.

 

Apart from that, it was a gradual decrease of difficulty that went with improving my gear. My first attempts at AC were at level 40-50 (i was the level 50, people i was attemtping it with were lower), in blue/green gear. It was hard. The next attempt was after each of us had 10-15 levels more, and better gear, and it went much easier. We hardly were playing any better though. By the time we got to lev 80 in full exotics it became even easier. There were several adjustments to AC difficulty as well, each of them made thing seasier (rearranging the order of easier-to-harder paths each time - i.e. p3 was originally the hardest to me, now it's definitely the easiest).

 

 

1 hour ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

My first clear of Arah P4 (a level 80 dungeon) took 2 hours and 40 minutes,

My first clear of Arah P3 (the easiest path) took 3 hours. I'd say that the most of improvements in time clearing that later was from knowing where to go, and how not to fight Lupi (hint: meleeing lupi in a casual group is a bad move. Once we learned that lesson, the encounter turned out easy. Our mistake was not in lack of skill or experience here, actually. It was with us making a mistake to read a guide for that fight first)

 

1 hour ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

The same group (without changes to gear and obviously all still level 80) started clearing Arah P4 much much faster, second time was under 40 minutes and it kept going faster than that. Was the content nerfed? No. Did we use more powerful gear?

For me and my friends, by the time the clear times on Arah improved, we all graduated from full exotics (but mostly random builds, some of which would horrify meta players nowadays) to far more thought-out builds in full ascended. Of course there was an improvement visible.

 

1 hour ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

And you can't completely disregard the player skill/ability factor either, which has a major impact on the issue we talk about, and I'd wager a guess a much higher impact than gear (or level) ever had on dungeons. Given how players finish them in green gear and/or solo/duo and so on.

Sure i can't. I am sure there was some improvement there, but not to the degree of making a prohibitively hard content turn into easy mode. That was mostly gear and levels

 

1 hour ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

There was a post that I remember, someone complaing about how hard the Path of Fire first instance is. Fortunately, it was someone with the intelligence to post their actual build to get valid feedback instead of just complaining about difficulty like 99.99% of complaints on these forums. Turned out he was using a dual sword Warrior (condi weapons) with full Berserker stats. He also had Shout traits selected, but only had Signets as slotted skills. In other words, a total mess.

Many of the players frequently running those dungeons likely had far worse builds. In fact, many players probably have worse builds even today. I know i had far worse builds in the past (one of the builds i was using then had an estimated dps rating of around 2k with no boons - i know, because, i checked it at some point at the golem). Didn't cause any problem to me then, though (and no, before you ask, other players i was playing with had similarily "creative" builds then)

 

1 hour ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

Behind most of the complaints about difficulty are players like the above. They are max level, they have everything unlocked, they use the best possible gear. But they use the wrong gear stats, the wrong skills/weapons/traits for the encounter or they simply don't know or can't perform the mechanics properly.

Nowadays, yes. Then, no. No, because i do remember at least one fo those "dungeon difficulty" threads turning into a thread about whether people should treat the suggested level for dungeon path seriously, or consider dungeons to be level 80 content.

 

1 hour ago, maddoctor.2738 said:

I don't think this is a game you can be carried by your gear,  take a naked player and they can perform much better than a full legendary player.

Possibly. But you still can very much can see significant improvement in graduating from level 40-50 in blues-greens to full ascended level 80. Even if you're running bad builds.

 

Dungeons were completely doable, with no problem, in bad builds and mismatched gear with casual approach to mechanics - but you had to be level 80 in good gear first, because trying that at levels/gear those dungeons were supposedly designed for would result in a wipe after wipe. Those kinds of tries were indeed only for very experienced/skilled players.

[maddoctor.2738]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 Frankly, it's not surprising many people would consider dungeons to be hard at this point.

As I said I don't know the exact time frame that the transition from "this is too hard" to "this is too easy" happened but rather that it did happen. And without developer intervention. 

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If it was a case of gaining skill/experience, people would keep complaining for far, far longer than that, and you would not see such massive decrease in complains so fast.

 

See above. That depends on the exact time frame that the transition happened. As for gaining experience, there are lots of examples of how using the proper skills makes dungeons a LOT easier.

The graveling burrows for example in Ascalonion Catacombs become really easy to deal with once you use Frost Bow, regardless of your level, or your gear.

Stacking on Subject Alpha, instead of spreading around, also makes that encounter much easier.

Or probably my favorite, I had nightmares of Twilight Arbor, trying to fight the nightmare dogs in the first room with the toxic plants. Then I got the much easier tactic of simply running through. Or using a Guardian with a Staff to clear the toxic plants.

Of course realizing that stacking in a corner, then blasting fire fields to gain might and bursting down all foes, was the "tactic" that trivialized half the dungeon content.

 

Those and many more tactics developed through having experience playing the game are what made Dungeons trivial. Not developer intervention, nor gear/level. Tactics, proper builds, competenent use of mechanics and knowledge of the encounters.

 

Surprising nobody, this is exactly the case in Raids too. I'm sure most (if not all) squads that killed their first Raid bosses (as a team, not pugs) would remember how hard the first kill felt, and how easy the 2nd/3rd kill felt. Or 10th. In a lot of times, again, with zero developer intervention, or changes to gear or power creep. Just "getting good" 

 

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I know that there was specifically one point that made dungeons so for me. The patch that removed in-combat ressing/waypointing, but nerfed the bosses to compensate. Dungeons felt much easier after that one. Don't remember when it specifically happened though.

 

Late January 2013

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I remember specifically doing CoE before and after that change, (few days apart), and the experience in Subject Alpha fight was completely different. It turned overnight from an encounter that required multiple wipes and ress-rushing strat to pass into oneshot.

 

They simply reduced his health, his damage and mechanics were unchanged. It's interesting that you mentioned how easy the fight felt after the change, maybe you started using proper tactics against him. Because just the 10 to 15% lower health shouldn't make the fight "completely different".

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Sure i can't. I am sure there was some improvement there, but not to the degree of making a prohibitively hard content turn into easy mode. That was mostly gear and levels

 

Playing in full masterwork gear but using a Frost Bow on graveling burrows, or stacking in a corner blasting fire fields for might, would result in a much smoother run than using full ascended gear and not doing the above. This is rather easily seen in Raids where players with very low skill and full ascended fail miserably. While competent players beat the same encounter while naked.

 

I'm not sure if we are still talking about Guild Wars 2 here, I always pictured this game as the one where personal skill and ability, proper knowledge of mechanics and correct build choices were always better than using the "correct gear". And I thought this was agreed on by the community. I guess some believe this is a game that you are getting carried by gear instead.

 

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Many of the players frequently running those dungeons likely had far worse builds

 

Of course. But if they used Ascended instead of Rare/Exotic with that same build, they'd still have similar results. A bad build is a bad build no matter the gear tier used, Ascended vs Exotic, or Rare or even lower.

[Vilin.8056]

And how is these debate has anything to do with Easy Mode in raid?

 

This game has never had even one successful attempt at making any low difficulty, low reward based instance contents popular for the last 6 years. It failed at Story Dungeon, nerfed Dungeon, Low level fractals, Strike Missions, DRM.

 

But sure let's ask developers to devote their resources to make something more of the same just because a few grudging  players wants Legendary Armor.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Vilin.8056

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Vilin.8056 said:

And how is these debate has anything to do with Easy Mode in raid?

 

This game has never had even one successful attempt at making any low difficulty, low reward based instance contents popular for the last 6 years. It failed at Story Dungeon, nerfed Dungeon, Low level fractals, Strike Missions, DRM.

 

But sure let's ask developers to devote their resources to make something more of the same just because a few grudging  players wants Legendary Armor.

Dungeons were succesful. In fact, reward nerf happened precisely because devs wanted them to stop being succesful. But yeah, any low reward instance content is bound to fail, no matter if it's easy or difficult. The same would hold true for easy mode. And yes, i am sure that people proposing potential easy mode to have no/low rewards are completely aware of that fact.

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Dungeons were succesful. In fact, reward nerf happened precisely because devs wanted them to stop being succesful. But yeah, any low reward instance content is bound to fail, no matter if it's easy or difficult. The same would hold true for easy mode. And yes, i am sure that people proposing potential easy mode to have no/low rewards are completely aware of that fact.

What exactly did you miss about many posts like this one:

On 6/7/2021 at 7:05 PM, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Make a "story mode" that is relatively easy. The goal of the story mode will just be to introduce the player to the mechanics in the main raid.

?

[ArchonWing.9480]

9 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

This game has never had even one successful attempt at making any low difficulty, low reward based instance contents popular for the last 6 years. It failed at Story Dungeon, nerfed Dungeon, Low level fractals, Strike Missions, DRM.

Plenty of people do low level fractals. Heck, right now, this late I see 4 parties of t1 fractals in lfg, 2 in t3, and 2 in t4. A lot of the people I know that don't regularly fractal only have like 50 AR or something. So this fractal rush week we just did t1s. They barely require any agony resistance and so anyone can join.

If anything Fractals are the biggest success when it comes to progression and it would be even more successful if they did more than like 1 fractal a year.

Edited June 9, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[medivh.4725]

Good idea! If raid have easy mode, people will not be so toxic. And casuals can get in and have a feel of raids. You probably just tone down the boss HP levels and rewards

Edited June 9, 2021 by medivh.4725

[Infusion.7149]

19 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Plenty of people do low level fractals. Heck, right now, this late I see 4 parties of t1 fractals in lfg, 2 in t3, and 2 in t4. A lot of the people I know that don't regularly fractal only have like 50 AR or something. So this fractal rush week we just did t1s. They barely require any agony resistance and so anyone can join.

If anything Fractals are the biggest success when it comes to progression and it would be even more successful if they did more than like 1 fractal a year.

The main reason fractals are successful is not just tiering and 5 man aspects (the game was designed for 5 man not 10). If you wipe it's not a big deal and just retry, such as on Twilight Oasis or Siren's Reef. The dps checks generally aren't stringent as well.

That's why my initial response here was the full revive ability and enrage removal. Diminished rewards for any easy mode should occur just as if you do lower level fractals (less relics, encryptions, etc) or non-CM you don't get the unstable cosmic essences or unstable fractal essences. Expecting a complete retooling just for a new mode is a bit much when the Forging Steel and DRM CMs don't work that way.

There's also the player mindset, because you can res full downed people when someone dies once people are less angry about it because they are not out the entire fight (see rally on Nightmare circles for example). When I help out people on lower tier Sunqua you see people get ressed quite often.

I would say the worst tier right now is probably T3 when most of the team runs without pots , best is T4 with full pots with comp or T2 if you want to try something power that isn't meta. T1 usually has people that don't know the fractals at all.

People do strikes every day too. The only thing is they don't stay up on LFG long.

Gear doesn't matter as much as you think because I've seen reapers and berserkers do less than healbrand during Fractal Rush. Also saw staff camping healbrands, but that is a separate issue.

[ArchonWing.9480]

15 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The main reason fractals are successful is not just tiering and 5 man aspects (the game was designed for 5 man not 10). If you wipe it's not a big deal and just retry, such as on Twilight Oasis or Siren's Reef. The dps checks generally aren't stringent as well.

That's why my initial response here was the full revive ability and enrage removal. Diminished rewards for any easy mode should occur just as if you do lower level fractals (less relics, encryptions, etc) or non-CM you don't get the unstable cosmic essences or unstable fractal essences. Expecting a complete retooling just for a new mode is a bit much when the Forging Steel and DRM CMs don't work that way.

There's also the player mindset, because you can res full downed people when someone dies once people are less angry about it because they are not out the entire fight (see rally on Nightmare circles for example). When I help out people on lower tier Sunqua you see people get ressed quite often.

I would say the worst tier right now is probably T3 when most of the team runs without pots , best is T4 with full pots with comp or T2 if you want to try something power that isn't meta. T1 usually has people that don't know the fractals at all.

People do strikes every day too. The only thing is they don't stay up on LFG long.

Gear doesn't matter as much as you think because I've seen reapers and berserkers do less than healbrand during Fractal Rush. Also saw staff camping healbrands, but that is a separate issue.

 

Oh, well my point was just that low fractals weren't failures since it's not too hard to go into them, and they served their purpose when I was grinding up from them. They have no use for me personally anymore, but they served their purpose.

 

And yea t3 has the difficulty spike while lacking the rewards and mostly everyone that grinded it enough graduated to t4.

 

Also was referring to gear in terms of just AR.

Edited June 9, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Infusion.7149]

I forgot to mention fractals usually have trash mobs which give life force to necros. That's quite different to most strikes/raids , which is why you are more likely to see scourges than reapers (which are far more popular in openworld). Not necessarily related to easy mode, but encounter design has a huge impact on professions' viability. Plaguedoctor/heal scourge basically is one big carry class right now and condi scourges in general are quite solid even in power oriented fights right now.

I don't play reaper in raids but I am pretty sure the only place you'd want to run it is Qadim in the lamp , not counting escort/siege the stronghold or bandit trio. I mean it could work on Slothasor , Sabetha, and such too I guess if you don't take much damage in shroud?

Not sure how that life force issue could be addressed properly without reworks though.

[Vilin.8056]

52 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Plenty of people do low level fractals. Heck, right now, this late I see 4 parties of t1 fractals in lfg, 2 in t3, and 2 in t4. A lot of the people I know that don't regularly fractal only have like 50 AR or something. So this fractal rush week we just did t1s. They barely require any agony resistance and so anyone can join.

If anything Fractals are the biggest success when it comes to progression and it would be even more successful if they did more than like 1 fractal a year.

I'm in NA server, currently there's only 2 listings instances across T1-T3 at this time, and it usually stays that way, so there's your popularity count.

[Astralporing.1957]

15 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

What exactly did you miss about many posts like this one:

?

Perhaps it was not me, but you that missed something. Specifically, the first part of the very post you quoted. The part you omitted:

On 6/7/2021 at 7:05 PM, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Let's not reinvent the wheel. We already know how it's done. Once upon a time, there was content named dungeons...

 

The only lesson we can get from dungeons about story mode is that something like dungeon story mode is not going to work. Like any other low reward instanced content.

 

So, if we really want to

 

On 6/7/2021 at 7:05 PM, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Make a "story mode" that is relatively easy. The goal of the story mode will just be to introduce the player to the mechanics in the main raid.

Then we should not be basing it on dungeon story mode at all.

 

[Sobx.1758]

59 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Perhaps it was not me, but you that missed something. Specifically, the first part of the very post you quoted. The part you omitted:

 

The only lesson we can get from dungeons about story mode is that something like dungeon story mode is not going to work. Like any other low reward instanced content.

 

So, if we really want to

 

Then we should not be basing it on dungeon story mode at all.

Dungeons are irrelevant here for me. You keep writing about the rewards as if people that propose easy mode to ease people into the raiding by having smoother introduction of their mechanics do it with some kind of malicious intent ("But yeah, any low reward instance content is bound to fail (...) And yes, i am sure that people proposing potential easy mode to have no/low rewards are completely aware of that fact. "), while you completely ommit what purpose that "easy mode" is supposed to have, which was already repeatedly explained.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[ArchonWing.9480]

9 hours ago, Vilin.8056 said:

I'm in NA server, currently there's only 2 listings instances across T1-T3 at this time, and it usually stays that way, so there's your popularity count.

Well, yea, most people are asleep at that time you posted. Almost all activity revolves around daily resets.

 

I posted less than an hour before you on NA and there were 6 LFGs in t1-t3, 6 strike missions, and 6 raids (but most of them were selling...) so I seriously doubt you regularly check.

 

14 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Dungeons are irrelevant here for me. You keep writing about the rewards as if people that propose easy mode to ease people into the raiding by having smoother introduction of their mechanics do it with some kind of malicious intent ("But yeah, any low reward instance content is bound to fail (...) And yes, i am sure that people proposing potential easy mode to have no/low rewards are completely aware of that fact. "), while you completely ommit what purpose that "easy mode" is supposed to have, which was already repeatedly explained.

No point in arguing with them. They're just trying to save face here.

 

Even if we were to steel man the point that dungeons failed which is not, it doesn't change the fact that we don't have to duplicate everything that went wrong.

 

It is without a doubt that dungeons filled the spot that raids did, and had similar issues with exclusion and skill level. The pve meta also grew up there too. They were not perfect, but it was all we had, and played a role. "Failure" is a subjective criteria.

 

Obviously in this day and age we are not bringing dungeons back. But we can still learn from their concepts.

 

And yea, wtf, I just wanted to suggest a story mode. None of my points are less valid if you strike dungeon from them, lol. You can replace it with "All previous instanced pve"

Edited June 9, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Astralporing.1957]

15 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Dungeons are irrelevant here for me.

For you. When i was making my initial post, i wasn't responding to you, though, did i.

 

Quote

You keep writing about the rewards as if people that propose easy mode to ease people into the raiding by having smoother introduction of their mechanics do it with some kind of malicious intent ("But yeah, any low reward instance content is bound to fail (...) And yes, i am sure that people proposing potential easy mode to have no/low rewards are completely aware of that fact. "), while you completely ommit what purpose that "easy mode" is supposed to have, which was already repeatedly explained.

Right. Sure. Not like you actually believe in the success of the easy mode (you already admitted earlier that you don't), or like you want easy mode to ever get off the ground (you also already admitted earlier you never want it to happen).

Edited June 9, 2021 by Astralporing.1957