Overperforming skills/traits

[bethekey.8314]

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

Ele is harder to play due to lower hp / def as well as more committal chose in game play then say eng.

 

But Elementalist and, in fact, every other class gets substantially more play than Engineer.

 

According to you:

 

2 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

more play because there is no real challenge

 

Therefore, by your own logic, Engineer is harder to play than Elementalist.

 

Also, care to admit you just make up stats? Not a good look.

[Jski.6180]

2 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

But Elementalist and, in fact, every other class gets substantially more play than Engineer.

 

According to you:

 

 

Therefore, by your own logic, Engineer is harder to play than Elementalist.

 

Also, care to admit you just make up stats? Not a good look.

That is confusing i think you chose the wrong thing to respond to in my Quote. Ele has lower hp / def that not relay a option and ele has a cd on atument swaps as well as other classes yet kits do not that not an option that is a fact.

 

Your mixing up "hard game play" with "the ability to do more" eng with kits is more freely to do different things moment to moment then say ele or other classes. That maybe harder to do but the eng class can stand on its own with out there kits but is less able to do things moment to moment free like that.

 

 

[bethekey.8314]

1 minute ago, Jski.6180 said:

That is confusing i think you chose the wrong thing to respond to in my Quote. Ele has lower hp / def that not relay a option and ele has a cd on atument swaps as well as other classes yet kits do not that not an option that is a fact.

 

Your mixing up "hard game play" with "the ability to do more" eng with kits is more freely to do different things moment to moment then say ele or other classes. That maybe harder to do but the eng class can stand on its own with out there kits but is less able to do things moment to moment free like that.

 

Basic population statistics and your own argument are confusing? Spoken like the true genius it takes to play Elementalist.

 

I really don't know what to tell you, other than good luck.

 

 

[Jski.6180]

2 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

Basic population statistics and your own argument are confusing? Spoken like the true genius it takes to play Elementalist.

 

I really don't know what to tell you, other than good luck.

 

 

Right but your not taking in account to what i was posting about your just cherry picking my points.

[bethekey.8314]

4 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Right but your not taking in account to what i was posting about your just cherry picking my points.

 

Why bother arguing with someone who will lie to support their claims?

[Jski.6180]

6 minutes ago, bethekey.8314 said:

 

Why bother arguing with someone who will lie to support their claims?

That kits are on near 0 cd and super speed support on scraper compliantly to others classes is very much over preforming?

 

I am not trying to win the forms here i just feel very strongly about these effect over preforming. I have for some time with super speed when HoT came out tempest had 1 super speed support skill (5 sec back then now only 3 sec) on a 35 sec cd  vs what scraper gets 3 sec support super speed on each well as well as its f5 and 5 sec of support super speed on its heal skill. All which is on 20 sec or less cd. Not counting the other super speed skills eng / scraper gets from F1-5.

[ThrakathNar.4537]

8 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Well a scraper cant support heal with out a kit that is a roll in it self and its causing anet to shift its roll from a tanky dps to an healing support class. Bomb kit is a melee dps class in it self for a long time till they balned it all though its still able to fill this roll. Nade kit is very much a hybred dps mid range class that you would be hard press to see the likes of even p/p pulling off. Exliser gun kit is a full on utility class having both support and cc (all be it soft cc only). Morder kit is the long range dps class that nothing of eng can get close to preforming atm (they may add in an eleit spec like it but right now its all eng has but it very much changes the class comply).

 

Eng has shield that very much is an support wepon.

 

Med kit is an uititly skills not a full class like healing druid that IS an important differences that why kits are overpower in there effect. The med kit is filling a roll of an full class its beyond just an simple wepon.

 

It has always been the case that engineer kits are stronger than engineer weapons, that's how the class was designed. Even so, condi holo, a build which runs 3 kits, p/p, and photon forge (5 total weapon sets) still only benches at about 36.4k, whereas soulbeast benches at 38k, and DH at 40k. The damage of kits is not an issue.

 

Saying that "Scrapper can't support heal without a kit" both ignores the fact that heal scrappers are playing with 2 pure support traitlines (Inventions + Alchemy), but also that most classes have very little sustained support healing without their weapons. Scrapper isn't the only spec using different utilities changes the role of the spec from DPS to support - the same can be true of both Dragonhunter and Spellbreaker. Dragonhunter running mace/shield + staff with Honour 1/2/2 Virtues 2/2/2 Can actually provide a lot of burst healing, as well as similar sustained healing to firebrand. Spellbreaker running Warhorn + Vigourous shouts was (and still is, to an extent) a meta healer, despite the spec being designed for DPS/boonrip.

 

Shield is only a support weapon if traited, and even then it only gives out 5 target protection. Traited ranger warhorn gives out fury, 6 might, swiftness, and regen.

 

There's so much more to scrapper than just medkit. Without elixir gun, Inventions, Alchemy, and Purge gyro, the healing and boon output of the spec would be significantly lower than support tempest or firebrand.

[Jski.6180]

38 minutes ago, ThrakathNar.4537 said:

 

It has always been the case that engineer kits are stronger than engineer weapons, that's how the class was designed. Even so, condi holo, a build which runs 3 kits, p/p, and photon forge (5 total weapon sets) still only benches at about 36.4k, whereas soulbeast benches at 38k, and DH at 40k. The damage of kits is not an issue.

 

Saying that "Scrapper can't support heal without a kit" both ignores the fact that heal scrappers are playing with 2 pure support traitlines (Inventions + Alchemy), but also that most classes have very little sustained support healing without their weapons. Scrapper isn't the only spec using different utilities changes the role of the spec from DPS to support - the same can be true of both Dragonhunter and Spellbreaker. Dragonhunter running mace/shield + staff with Honour 1/2/2 Virtues 2/2/2 Can actually provide a lot of burst healing, as well as similar sustained healing to firebrand. Spellbreaker running Warhorn + Vigourous shouts was (and still is, to an extent) a meta healer, despite the spec being designed for DPS/boonrip.

 

Shield is only a support weapon if traited, and even then it only gives out 5 target protection. Traited ranger warhorn gives out fury, 6 might, swiftness, and regen.

 

There's so much more to scrapper than just medkit. Without elixir gun, Inventions, Alchemy, and Purge gyro, the healing and boon output of the spec would be significantly lower than support tempest or firebrand.

Right by what about that makes it ok for kits to have near 0 cd after coming out of them even the best weapons swaps or changes in combat types mid combat have cd.

 

But all other support classes have some build in support for that line where scraper has super speed at a much higher level then any other class that was it only though power creep is it getting more support effects. You could make the same argument that holo is an support class due to it getting some group buffs and use of eng core skill but it dose not make it true.

[Kodama.6453]

3 hours ago, Jski.6180 said:

Right by what about that makes it ok for kits to have near 0 cd after coming out of them even the best weapons swaps or changes in combat types mid combat have cd.

 

But all other support classes have some build in support for that line where scraper has super speed at a much higher level then any other class that was it only though power creep is it getting more support effects. You could make the same argument that holo is an support class due to it getting some group buffs and use of eng core skill but it dose not make it true.

If you want kits to have a CD after swapping out of them, then this would require heavy buffs for all kits as compensation.

 

Take, for example, the holo dps build for PvE. It's rotation just works because we can freely swap between kits and even with this we are still not even close to the highest dps among classes. Giving kits a CD for swapping out of them would disturb the rotation, meaning that we will have a loss in dps. On holosmith, a elite spec that is supposed to be a primary dps class.

 

This would require compensation in some way. And the same applies to all the other kits.

[cat.8975]

Precisely. Kits are balanced around having no swap cooldown. You would have to rework every existing kit if you wanted them to act more like normal weapon swaps. They're fine as is.

[Jski.6180]

6 hours ago, Kodama.6453 said:

If you want kits to have a CD after swapping out of them, then this would require heavy buffs for all kits as compensation.

 

Take, for example, the holo dps build for PvE. It's rotation just works because we can freely swap between kits and even with this we are still not even close to the highest dps among classes. Giving kits a CD for swapping out of them would disturb the rotation, meaning that we will have a loss in dps. On holosmith, a elite spec that is supposed to be a primary dps class.

 

This would require compensation in some way. And the same applies to all the other kits.

There is no compensation there is just balancing to be in line with other skills and there is no way kits are in line with other skills.

[Kodama.6453]

18 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

There is no compensation there is just balancing to be in line with other skills and there is no way kits are in line with other skills.

Translation: "I hate engineers and want them to be the worst class in every game mode."

Edited May 9, 2021 by Kodama.6453

[Jski.6180]

16 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Translation: "I hate engineers and want them to be the worst class in every game mode."

No i dislike how strong kits are but with no draw back or cost to use like weapons swap chose and atument swap chose. There needs to be a real risk for swapping out and most of the time in gw2 that risk is cd. As long as kits are free swap then every elite spec they add in will need to have kits nerf on some level or the kits will simply take over that elite spec see scraper.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

No i dislike how strong kits are but with no draw back or cost

@Jski.6180

You forgot that kits are your utylity slots, that is bigger cost then weapon swap with cd

 

you can take flamethrower,bombs,granades at once in pvp/wvw

 

but then you have 0 utylity skills like bulwark gyro for barrier and stab/purge gyro, potions for boons/quickness, or even some gadgets

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Jski.6180]

1 hour ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

@Jski.6180

You forgot that kits are your utylity slots, that is bigger cost then weapon swap with cd

 

you can take flamethrower,bombs,granades at once in pvp/wvw

 

but then you have 0 utylity skills like bulwark gyro for barrier and stab/purge gyro, potions for boons/quickness, or even some gadgets

 

You get a tool belt skill when you do though so that cost is very much mitigated or is an out right positive.

[Noah Salazar.5430]

Quote

You get a tool belt skill when you do though so that cost is very much mitigated or is an out right positive.

 

 it's not true(Expect of Granade Barage), most tool belt skills not bring much or are weak

 

Not saing it's wrong tho as your chosing whole "weapon to swap" on place of utility

 

Ele can have "kits" too but thay are much stronger, also on top of that bringing you adional stats, also you can give them to other ppl, thats why thay have cd (thay culd reduce that cd tho as 60s is bit much)

 

 

 

Edited May 9, 2021 by Noah Salazar.5430

[Jski.6180]

10 minutes ago, Noah Salazar.5430 said:

 

 it's not true(Expect of Granade Barage), most tool belt skills not bring much or are weak

 

Not saing it's wrong tho as your chosing whole "weapon to swap" on place of utility

 

Ele can have "kits" too but thay are much stronger, also on top of that bringing you adional stats, also you can give them to other ppl, thats why thay have cd (but i agree thay culd bit make it better) 

 

 

 

Dmg utility often just do dmg i am not sure if you should let kits tool belts skills not fill the same roll as they do.

 

I person want to see an elite spec where you have tool belt skill swap as if it was a weapons swap for eng but that is wildly off topic.

 

Sadly ele "kits" have cd and cast times and often have less effects then eng kits as well as lacking a utility replacement that eng gets from tool belt skills.

[schloumou.3982]

1 hour ago, Jski.6180 said:

No i dislike how strong kits are but with no draw back or cost to use like weapons swap chose and atument swap chose.

 

Sadly ele "kits" have cd and cast times and often have less effects then eng kits as well as lacking a utility replacement that eng gets from tool belt skills.

 

Can you not maybe move on to the thief subforum and complain about Ele having CDs on weapon skills or something? I'm pretty sure they can just spam skills and there is not a single downside to this.

Edited May 9, 2021 by schloumou.3982

[Jski.6180]

11 minutes ago, schloumou.3982 said:

 

Can you not maybe move on to the thief subforum and complain about Ele having CDs on weapon skills or something? I'm pretty sure they can just spam skills and there is not a single downside to this.

Well no the issue here is that a kit is defining an elite spec to where anet is buffing that elite spec in pve that is carrying over to wvw and spvp there by messing up the balancing split and over all all of the game types. These skill are destroying gw2 in short.

[Kodama.6453]

10 minutes ago, Jski.6180 said:

Well no the issue here is that a kit is defining an elite spec to where anet is buffing that elite spec in pve that is carrying over to wvw and spvp there by messing up the balancing split and over all all of the game types. These skill are destroying gw2 in short.

Ok, now you are extremely melodramatic and obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

 

I will try to give you some perspective on what is going on:

Scrapper got designed as a bruiser elite spec, something that resembles a tank from other games.

 

The problem with that is that in PvE content, tanks are not needed in this game except some very niche cases which are always filled with the same classes.

 

This means that scrapper is currently absolutely useless in PvE, there aren't really many cases where a scrapper is actually useful in PvE. 

 

Scrapper is strong as a support class in WvW, thou, because of core engineer's strong support capabilities (purity of purpose, med kit, elixir gun, medical dispersion field, etc.).

 

Anet now sees an opportunity to make scrapper actually used in PvE by giving it some more supportive features to enable it as a viable healing support for raids/strikes/etc..

 

This is not "med kit warping scrapper into something else". This is "scrapper is a tank spec in a game that doesn't need tanks". Scrapper is not going to become a great dps class for PvE, since the actual dps elite spec holosmith outshines it here.

 

There are other bruiser elite specs: daredevil and spellbreaker.

Unfortunately, these classes don't have nearly enough supportive qualities in their core to let viable support builds emerge in PvE. Do you know how these classes are played in PvE? As dps builds, which have to compete with deadeye and berserker.

 

Spellbreaker and daredevil won't get viable support builds easily, since their core doesn't provide them so much opportunity. Some really heavy changes would be required to achieve that.

Engineer is just lucky to have a workable core for support builds.

 

This has nothing to do with med kit, stop acting like this kit is suddenly so overpowered that it will destroy game balance.

[Jski.6180]

13 minutes ago, Kodama.6453 said:

Ok, now you are extremely melodramatic and obviously have no clue what you are talking about.

 

I will try to give you some perspective on what is going on:

Scrapper got designed as a bruiser elite spec, something that resembles a tank from other games.

 

The problem with that is that in PvE content, tanks are not needed in this game except some very niche cases which are always filled with the same classes.

 

This means that scrapper is currently absolutely useless in PvE, there aren't really many cases where a scrapper is actually useful in PvE. 

 

Scrapper is strong as a support class in WvW, thou, because of core engineer's strong support capabilities (purity of purpose, med kit, elixir gun, medical dispersion field, etc.).

 

Anet now sees an opportunity to make scrapper actually used in PvE by giving it some more supportive features to enable it as a viable healing support for raids/strikes/etc..

 

This is not "med kit warping scrapper into something else". This is "scrapper is a tank spec in a game that doesn't need tanks". Scrapper is not going to become a great dps class for PvE, since the actual dps elite spec holosmith outshines it here.

 

There are other bruiser elite specs: daredevil and spellbreaker.

Unfortunately, these classes don't have nearly enough supportive qualities in their core to let viable support builds emerge in PvE. Do you know how these classes are played in PvE? As dps builds, which have to compete with deadeye and berserker.

 

Spellbreaker and daredevil won't get viable support builds easily, since their core doesn't provide them so much opportunity. Some really heavy changes would be required to achieve that.

Engineer is just lucky to have a workable core for support builds.

 

This has nothing to do with med kit, stop acting like this kit is suddenly so overpowered that it will destroy game balance.

Well if your a wvw player or spvp player you need to be interested in pve balancing because it carry over to the other game types the split that anet was doing is a lie and they often un-split or simply add in pve balancing that carry over.

 

Eng is a strong support in wvw both holo and scraper can be support due to kits and eng traits. The very ideal of pop is broken because of all of the condi clears from kits alone. This has all made anet pushed scraper into an support something the over all player base dose not seem to want or think it will even work in a pve environment so much so that they are asking for endless power creep to the scraper class now.

 

No other class has kits like eng dose the other classes have effect that allows them to have a new set of 5 skills though wepon swaps atument swaps books and transformation all but kits have massive cd and cast times. Kits are destroying both gw2 and the eng class it self as there is a massive point of view that pop should be nerf because of the kits them self!

Edited May 9, 2021 by Jski.6180

[Koensol.5860]

@Jski.6180 Ngl, your posts are insanely annoying to read for multiple reasons. Not only do you express some excessive hyperbole: "kits are destroying gw2" (LMAO at this), but you also don't have a clue what you are talking about and seem oblivious to what reality brings when playing engineer. You also simply ignore the multiple valid points that are brought up, responding with the same flawed logic time and time again, while overinflating the power of kits.

 

You just go whaaa whaaa kits OP cuz no cd and 5 abilities whaaa whaaa. What you don't fully realize (even though you think you do), is that having kits and playing with kits brings a multitude of challenges and hindrances. In pvp for example, a functional build needs both damage, survivability and to a certain extent, mobility (depending on build). Kits are NOT an all in one package. If you take a good look or have actually played engineer, you'd realize that the useful skills needed to survive are scattered accross the kits. And you have to choose which ones you want. The profession is DESIGNED to quickly swap between kits in order to rotate between these skills. In other words: mutilple actions to perform something as simple as surviving. On top of that you sacrifice a utility slot. So when playing only with kits you will be fodder as the kits don't have hard defensive skills like invuln, evade frames, stealth, etc. You have to balance your build and make choices. 

 

Most builds use 1, maybe 2 kits in their builds to provide them with the needed damage skills from losing a 2nd weapon, and some utility skills from losing a utility spot to a kit. "Oh but you have toolbelt skills?!?!" Uhm yes, it's our class mechanic, duh...

 

I really can't take you serious anymore after your insanely hyperbolic comments about kits destroying gw2, kits being entire classes and comments like: "There is no compensation there is just balancing to be in line with other skills and there is no way kits are in line with other skills"

Which offer no actual reasoning other than your dislike for the engineer class and a baseless fixation on kits while looking at them in a vacuüm and ignoring all the downsides of using and even just having the option to slot kits. You just don't have a clue what you're talking about.

 

I know this might be on the border of flaming, but at this point I'm honestly thinking you might be trolling or just hating on the class hoping to get it nerfed. 

Edited May 10, 2021 by Koensol.5860

[wasss.1208]

On 5/7/2021 at 8:56 PM, Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:

Static shield is like shocking aura except with no icd. Stun breaks that have a "hit" effect literally dont work against it, you are just chain stunned immediately before you can act.

Elixir S gives invuln on a 60s base cd and aoe stealth on a 45s base cd. Compare that with mist form which is on a 75s cd and prevents interactions after you cast it.

Holosmiths crystal configuration: zephyr grants superspeed and removes cripple chill and immob, on a 4s cd skill... as a master trait.

HGH not only reduces the cd of elixir utility skills, but also of elixir toolbelt skills and elixir gun skills, and it increases the duration of their effects, and grants might on use of any of those skills. All of that loaded into 1 trait is crazy.

Grenade autos still deal more damage than normal weapon auto attack chains, even though they are ranged and aoe and dont require you to face your target.

 

Its honestly getting really tiring seeing engi be so stacked for years.

 

I'm going to assume, that these are all in a PvP perspective.
In my oppinion, Static Shield, Magnetic Shield ->Magnetic Inversion, Shocking Aura, and Shield of Absorption (Guardian Shield 5) are all unhealthy, considering that the current skill design is against instant CCs. (Technicly Static Shield and Shocking Aura has counterplay, but it's pretty hard to pull off, if they are well timed.) I wouldn't be against some changes on these skills/effects.

Elixir S. The moment you pull in the stealth, you are comparing a Utility skill+Profession mechanic, not a single skill. If you want to make a one-to-one comparison*, you should compare Elixir S, to Mist Form. The CD difference could be explained with the additional movement speed, or the fact, that when this nerf happened, Tempests were abusing res signet, and Overloads with it. (If the reason is the latter, it should be reverted, since that was fixed long ago.)
The inconsistency should be 100% fixed, where one can start actions after going Invul, while the other can't.

Crystal Configuration: Zephyr. I'm not playing Holosmith in PvP, so I'll leave this to those who do. But generally, I agree, that it makes soft CCs pretty pointless against Holosmith.

HGH. In my oppinion, the problem here lies in the lack of other choices, from the trait lines. You give up nothing, by running 3-4 Elixirs, while Alchemy is also one of our best traitline in competitive gamemodes. If other utility specific traits, and skills weren't joke tier, you would see this one less.**

 

Grenade Autos. These has a plethora of counterplay, beign projectile, beign multihit, but still not able to remove blind, even with a hit... Aside of that, Grenade Kit is a damage orinted kit. It only has 3 skills with worthy power coeff. attached to it, one of them beign the autos. Nerf these, and it won't worth to pick the kit anymore.

 

Additions, from a WvW standpoint:

Purity of Purpose. This trait alone changes the WvW meta hard.

 

* You really shouldn't compare skills one-to-one. The Professions were made to be different. Everyone could point to a skill of an another Profession, which is one of their skill, on steroids. This assymetry is here, to make the Professions different.
**Longer, kind of outdated explanation about how I see this topic can be found here, under The Traitlines paragraph. 

 

[Renny.6571]

People in this thread want HGH nerfed as if turrets would be a viable replacement for elixirs. LUL

Edited May 11, 2021 by Renny.6571

[Custodio.6134]

As a WvW-player i cannot judge on pve-performance of engineers, but in one point of "overperforming" i can actually agree: 
The Trait "purity of purpose" is extremely overperforming in WvW. Why? because the engineer has way more acces to condition cleanse (respectively condition convert due to that one single trait) than boon corrupts are present in the game. This is also one reason why condition-damage sucks in wvw. by applying condis on the enemies, you just feed them into scrappers, converting them into boons (hell yeah, as an engi-main in wvw i actually love when the enemy pulls chilling fog in a keep, because: free alacrity for everyone). 

DPS-wise in WvW: yes, scrapper can deal a lot of damage with bomb kit and shredder-gyro, but this also comes with a downside: 
you have to go melee. Mortar Kit shoots projectiles and isnt effective in zergfights because of the big amount of reflect effects present in the game. And if you go melee with bomb kit, you either need to set up your gear towards more defense in order not to die instantly, or take the risk of dying in order to maximize damage. 

Everything comes with a downside here (except "purity of purpose" stated above)