Literal hot garbage - viper 10-men alacrimage

[Firebeard.1746]

9 minutes ago, NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

Confusion damage has always been miscalculate in map data (coloured one that calculate everyone), and you need to read personal data to get accurate measure.

 

Any mesmer dps raider would've know that tbh. Your whole argument falls apart when you read wrong data and base on that.

 

Except it doesn't, as I'm sure SC is also taking that into account on their numbers for axe benchmarks.
I'm sure there's encounters that favor torment over confusion, were you including those in your comparisons?

Your arguments don't mean much either with the other staff mirages falling behind other classes and you not having a concrete point of reference to prove that they're overperforming.

BTW, condi staff mirage is far from the strongest Confusion class.

My main point is advocating identifying bias in these analyses, which you're clearly showing with how choreographed and scoped your comparisons are. Anet would have the best points of reference.
 

Edited May 16, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

1 minute ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

Except it doesn't, as I'm sure SC is also taking that into account on their numbers for axe benchmarks.
I'm sure there's encounters that favor torment over confusion, were you including those in your comparisons?
 

Snowcrow benchmark talks about consistent confusion stacks on axe mirage, which does 25 confusion stacks on bosses to land 35k on SH. Look at the video or mine to see how many confusion we're able to achieve (consistently 40 and up to 60 every 20s). What exactly are you arguing against when the most accurate personal data clearly point at that? Do you want to at least post a snowcrow video on ACTUAL BOSS?

 

Sure there are encounters favor torment over confusion, such as deimos (attack CD ~6s) But as I said torment MAX damage is shown on golem post change. And at this stage condi renegade's best potential is 41k (on STATIONARY GOLEM) without RR. Expect that to drop 3-4k if you swap to RR and add OFA into rotation, and expect further lower on boss movement.

[Firebeard.1746]

4 minutes ago, NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

Snowcrow benchmark talks about consistent confusion stacks on axe mirage, which does 25 confusion stacks on bosses to land 35k on SH. Look at the video or mine to see how many confusion we're able to achieve (consistently 40 and up to 60 every 20s). What exactly are you arguing against when the most accurate personal data clearly point at that? Do you want to at least post a snowcrow video on ACTUAL BOSS?

 

Sure there are encounters favor torment over confusion, such as deimos (attack CD ~6s) But as I said torment MAX damage is shown on golem post change. And at this stage condi renegade's best potential is 41k (on STATIONARY GOLEM) without RR. Expect that to drop 3-4k if you swap to RR and add OFA into rotation, and expect further lower on boss movement.

NO, I was referencing SH benchmarks for axe against staff. I thought that was explicit in my post. Again, I have no issues with you being right, I just don't want this to be classic anet where it's nerfed to garbage and never seen again because of haters.

And you failed to acknowledge alacrity from the other players  for the top mirage in your post, so it's been hard for me to think that you've been evenhanded in your assesments.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

11 minutes ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

 

Except it doesn't, as I'm sure SC is also taking that into account on their numbers for axe benchmarks.
I'm sure there's encounters that favor torment over confusion, were you including those in your comparisons?
 

You do know snowcrow has yet to update axe mirage and that build is from August 20? Back when staff does burn over confusion?

 

This is really getting no where. If you can't provide an actual video and said all my numbers (from video I might add) we can just say agree to disagree.

[Firebeard.1746]

11 minutes ago, NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

You do know snowcrow has yet to update axe mirage and that build is from August 20? Back when staff does burn over confusion?

It's a good A-B comparison of full viper's against full viper's. Your video provides the current staff data, the benchmarks show what axe can do. I guess the Sc data could go either way depending on how much movement there is vs actions.

Also i can critique the rotations in your videos. Someone providing higher alac uptime would have taken desert distoration and used shatter 4 instead of shatter 2 and clone replenishment, so your example is actually showing a DPS rotation, not a pure ambush alacrity rotation. (As a traited 2 does a lot of condi -  4 torment + a lot of confusion) The main mirage is using shatter 2.

SO again, you failing to account for alacrity uptime from other sources does mean something here as it allowed the mirage to focus more on DPS than boon uptime.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

3 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

It's a good A-B comparison of full viper's against full viper's. Your video provides the current staff data, the benchmarks show what axe can do. I guess the Sc data could go either way depending on how much movement there is vs actions.

Also i can critique the rotations in your videos. Someone providing higher alac uptime would have taken desert distoration and used shatter 4 instead of shatter 2 and clone replenishment, so your example is actually showing a DPS rotation, not a pure ambush alacrity rotation. (As a traited 2 does a lot of condi -  4 torment + a lot of confusion) The main mirage is using shatter 2.

SO again, you failing to account for alacrity uptime from other sources does mean something here as it allowed the mirage to focus more on DPS than boon uptime.

Without derailing this thread and being as respectful as I can be, I have to say your defense is still quite pathetic. you don't even bother reading the logs from renegades which none of them using OFA. And you tried to say this is a "you say I say" situation.

 

Let me teach you on how to use logs using the SH fight where our staff mirages deals 50-52k dps.

https://dps.report/8WAu-20210512-155534_sh

1. Click on your favorite renegades in this video

2. Click on player summary

3. Click on simple rotation

Vwala, no Orders from Above used from any revenants.

Guess what, alacrity uptime 96% for all players in party.

Who else is providing alacrity? Even the chrono didn't use well of recall in that fight.

 

You don't even fact/log check before making these assumptions, you don't even know confusion damage calculates horribly in map dps (hence EVERY DPS mirage video uses personal damage including axe mirages if you find those old ones).

You know what, I'll post your favorite snowcrow Axe mirage in old meta and look at the difference between "Self stat" (43k dps) and "Map stat" (34k dps)

 

You either are very new to raid, never used dps mirage in raid, or just simply too proud to actually admit mistake and just embarrassing yourself more by commenting on things you're not familiar with. Do yourself a favor and actually join SC discord and ask one of the staff there whether Axe mirage is stronger now or Staff mirage, because you clearly don't take in anything I say despite all evidences thrown at you.

 

Sure you can critique my rotations, afterall I'm practices 10min/day for 5 days doesn't mean I'm best at them. But someone is able to do 29.2k without using distortion, and the impression they get is using staff 3/5 is a dps loss. That's the whole point of pushing dps to boundaries for benchmark makers. What I tried to show in my first video is you can keep 100% alacrity with 0 investments just focus on ambushes, my second video added cry of frustrations to push higher dps to 25k. Using your clones for distortion will net around 26k, so yeah it is not optimal.

Edited May 17, 2021 by NICENIKESHOE.7128

[Firebeard.1746]

23 hours ago, NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

Guess what, alacrity uptime 96% for all players in party.

Who else is providing alacrity? Even the chrono didn't use well of recall in that fight.

 

 

It's funny you call my defense pathetic, when you can't read a log you just taught me to read. The log you share clearly shows 60% alac uptime from the mirage in question and the other chrono using SOI. Which, if traited extends everyone's boon duration in the squad. Also chrono shield boons buff the whole squad That's the other 36%. Sorry. Your failure to recognize this while chewing me out is pathetic. It's confusing that there are the 2 people who liked your post, obviously just showing hate for purple with no regard to real data or the logs you claim to know and love so much.

So no, this is not the same rotation as yours. I assume this mirage is using condi food and you're using endurance regen food. You're conflating your rotation/circumstance with this player.

I may not be a raiding guru, but you clearly aren't either. and it's insane that you try to call some massive experience trump card while making such a glaring error. While also ignoring my main point, and that's that we should be as unbiased as possible when evaluating the spec.

So yes, I'm not wrong, you are biased. Your case is a solo alacrity provider, the DPS case you mention should be balanced as a 0 bd condi ren that provide 50%s alac on average (I don't imagine that extra 10% meaning much on its own as it means another support is necessary. From somewhere.) There should be niche fights where it overperforms, otherwise, the spec is useless. It's always meta to take something else. There should be fights where condi alac ren outperforms it as well.

I'm fine with this being tuned properly if it's overperforming (there's a strong argument it does in the normal case, but in super optimized groups, it might not still be that strong, I saw an SH video with 100k confu ticks from condi chronos, but I don't remember the self numbers).

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Firebeard.1746
Tackling totally inaccurate

[Infusion.7149]

Today I learned someone using a combo field is considered an exploit by some people...

From experience I can tell you people with no experience playing staff mirage can definitely pull high numbers on SH (25K+).

----

If NICENIKESHOE's statement that if you use 3 or 5 on staff it will lead to DPS loss (likely) it makes the 1 spamming even worse.

Peak gameplay should not consist of spamming 1, in my opinion. In the past , Arenanet expressed that melee range damage should be more than ranged damage (see scepter auto nerf on guardian) ; this would be analogous to someone spamming 1 on condi RR renegade with shortbow and buffing 10 people in a large radius while doing respectable damage.
 

It probably is an oversight that clone ambushes with staff aren't stated to have reduced condition durations. Imaginary axes is split and so is ether barrage.

If we go by the rationale that staff provides support exceeding axe or scepter, axe should exceed scepter and staff in damage.

P.S. staff clones can get "deleted" so it's also buggy and not just bad design

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[Firebeard.1746]

2 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Peak gameplay should not consist of spamming 1, in my opinion. In the past , Arenanet expressed that melee range damage should be more than ranged damage (see scepter auto nerf on guardian) ; this would be analogous to someone spamming 1 on condi RR renegade with shortbow and buffing 10 people in a large radius while doing respectable damage.
 

Seeing as how melee is almost always meta in raiding, it could be argued balancing staff mirage in this way makes obsolete against other classes from the get-go. Though, there is an argument to be made that the radius around you buffing alacrity forces you into melee range with other melee classes to get meta DPS, therefore it's fine. Either way.

Again, I'm fine with it being appropriately balanced, but it's clear NICE was conflating his rotation with a pure DPS rotation. 

[Infusion.7149]

Needs to be reined in.

For reference, alac mirage is supposedly 30K + 48 confusion stacks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s_q8k9RQiQ

Pre-patch axe mirage was 29K + 24 confusion...

Condi chrono post patch = 16.6K + 40 confusion stacks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXjihC7D2kw

 

[otto.5684]

7 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Needs to be reined in.

For reference, alac mirage is supposedly 30K + 48 confusion stacks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4s_q8k9RQiQ

Pre-patch axe mirage was 29K + 24 confusion...

Condi chrono post patch = 16.6K + 40 confusion stacks:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mXjihC7D2kw

 

I think confusion damage and stacks need rework in pve. It needs to deal far higher base damage, and then have the stacks reduced so the damage output is consistent. Right now there are major fluctuations depending if the target attacks frequently or not. We went through this dance few years ago with torment. I don’t know why they did not change confusion in the same fashion in pve.

[Alquinon.2957]

21 hours ago, otto.5684 said:

I think confusion damage and stacks need rework in pve. It needs to deal far higher base damage, and then have the stacks reduced so the damage output is consistent. Right now there are major fluctuations depending if the target attacks frequently or not. We went through this dance few years ago with torment. I don’t know why they did not change confusion in the same fashion in pve.

 

The funny thing is this used to be the case if you look at the wiki for confusion. In 2017 before the launch of PoF they increased the base damage of confusion to be on par with bleeding, and decreased the skill activation damage portion. Then for some reason they went back on that change in 2018 and then changed the confusion from mirage axe skills into torment. And now here we are...

 

Before the patch for raid bosses I usually chose which build I ran based on how well each condition performed on it. Torment does more? Axe mirage it is. Confusion does more? Condi chrono time. Now you have a single build that outperforms basically everything (and on fights like largos twins it's not remotely close). Oh and by the way it gives 10 man alacrity and might.

[Nephalem.8921]

On 5/17/2021 at 10:21 AM, Infusion.7149 said:

Today I learned someone using a combo field is considered an exploit by some people...

From experience I can tell you people with no experience playing staff mirage can definitely pull high numbers on SH (25K+).

In area stats maybe. Actual dps is 30k+ aa only. Spaming evade on cd is 40k+ on a real boss. Thats a 2 button "rotation" outdamaging every other build in the game while providing 25might + perma alac.

" area condition damage on-skill-use procs on animation start instead of on skill use - not notified by server." Thats an arc limitation and it affects multiple bosses. I saw me doing 20k on mo and thought it was bad until i noticed 38k in self stats. Thats not even a confusion boss.

 

Edited May 22, 2021 by Nephalem.8921

[Infusion.7149]

10 minutes ago, Nephalem.8921 said:

In area stats maybe. Actual dps is 30k+ aa only. Spaming evade on cd is 40k+ on a real boss. Thats a 2 button "rotation" outdamaging every other build in the game while providing 25might + perma alac.

" area condition damage on-skill-use procs on animation start instead of on skill use - not notified by server." Thats an arc limitation and it affects multiple bosses. I saw me doing 20k on mo and thought it was bad until i noticed 38k in self stats. Thats not even a confusion boss.

 

Thanks for proving my point then?

I said it is overtuned and your reply is just supporting that

[Nephalem.8921]

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Thanks for proving my point then?

I said it is overtuned and your reply is just supporting that

You were underselling how broken it is. Easily pof weaver release broken. Its so ridiculous it can consistently outdamage selfish dps builds on real encounters. 10-30k dps ahead of other builds on SH and largos (phase dps).

If this is their balance direction i dont even want to know what eod brings.

[Firebeard.1746]

Quote

You were underselling how broken it is. Easily pof weaver release broken. Its so ridiculous it can consistently outdamage selfish dps builds on real encounters. 10-30k dps ahead of other builds on SH and largos (phase dps).

If this is their balance direction i dont even want to know what eod brings.

So what you're saying is that they nerfed ele's damage to be in line with everyone else but didn't adjust its HP to compensate. Typical mage balancing in any MMO. Destroy all the reward of being a glass cannon and make it glass. All risk, no reward. All worship the heavy armor classes!

 

Quote

I think confusion damage and stacks need rework in pve. It needs to deal far higher base damage, and then have the stacks reduced so the damage output is consistent. Right now there are major fluctuations depending if the target attacks frequently or not. We went through this dance few years ago with torment. I don’t know why they did not change confusion in the same fashion in pve.

I completely agree with this sentiment. If nerfs come because people whine about edge cases/particular encounters, then remove the flavor and make everything same. Though certain bosses may need HP pools nerfed to compensate if their initial balancing is around broken Confusion DPS scaling. I think Largos was 100% intended to be a confusion focused boss.

Edited May 23, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[chrispy.7182]

All of your talking about nerfs..... Sure, reduce damage. BUT make it compatible in damage and alactracy output to the Rev. I am reading what some are suggesting and it seems you just want to COMPLETELY nerf the damage in place of alacrity. 

NO. 

[mortrialus.3062]

That did not take long, relative to arenanet's pace for doing things. 

[Orack.9756]

Annnd the fun is gone again...

[Kondor.2904]

7 minutes ago, Orack.9756 said:

Annnd the fun is gone again...

It's still strong

[chrispy.7182]

Me and my clones hardly auto attack so we are always using chaos vortex. just stick a +10% boon sigil on your weapon and add some concentration to either your food or weapon and it should be near the same as before?

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

6 hours ago, Kondor.2904 said:

It's still strong

Agree.

 

Nerf in clone autoattack raises skill floor by punishing lazy play (which in the past could reward you with >20k on Cairn with literal 3 clone auto attack and no ambush/utility/other skills) and does little towards those who ambush frequently.

 

Before the change your alacrity per dodge is 3*1.16=3.48s due to concentration in Chaos line, now you just need to run sigil of energy (5% condi damage loss from not slotting bursting) + ~4 or so seraph gear (about 12% condi duration loss with 7% more crit chance) to achieve ~3.45s. Roughly estimate of 26k + ~42 confusion which is still decent on slowest attack bosses (6s CD).

 

Then again if you have 2 mirages you could just go full viper and ignore gear changes, ignoring this patch's nerf and out-dpsing 2 full-viper RR rens easily on every raid bosses.

[Zoser.7245]

2 hours ago, NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

Agree.

 

Nerf in clone autoattack raises skill floor by punishing lazy play (which in the past could reward you with >20k on Cairn with literal 3 clone auto attack and no ambush/utility/other skills) and does little towards those who ambush frequently.

 

Before the change your alacrity per dodge is 3*1.16=3.48s due to concentration in Chaos line, now you just need to run sigil of energy (5% condi damage loss from not slotting bursting) + ~4 or so seraph gear (about 12% condi duration loss with 7% more crit chance) to achieve ~3.45s. Roughly estimate of 26k + ~42 confusion which is still decent on slowest attack bosses (6s CD).

 

Then again if you have 2 mirages you could just go full viper and ignore gear changes, ignoring this patch's nerf and out-dpsing 2 full-viper RR rens easily on every raid bosses.

The change to the alacrity killed a probable fun build using a single staff together with other different weapon set but still able to keep full uptime alacrity with three ambushes. Not funny to watch how we lose diversity due to tweak raid numbers. They haven't changed it to make that build, maybe, 5% - 9% less lazy to play.  They only cared about numbers and not even thinking that the lose of that alacrity duration could remove some interesting build for PvE or even other game modes outside raid. And i really don't like that. A staff/staff is still a boring build anyways.  

 

Condi DPS Renegade is providing 40-41.2K dps , while Condi Boon Renegade 37.3k granted dps  while Mirage do 37.4k on Condi DPS and 30K granted before the nerf on Staff Condi Boon plus  a variable damage that depends of how much the boss attack.  Wiki Benchmarks

 

The amount of confusion aplied or not depends of the bounces. Raid  players doesn't like  inestable/variable dps, about all when the granted one will be significantly lower than 30k after the nerf.  Also if Renegade is preferred, is because it can use more supporting utilities and traits without sacrificing dps. Like the Assasin Presence, Razorclaw's Rage, Soulcleave's Summit, some traits from Invocattion as the dps difference is not big if you choose that trait line, etc. Also the flexibility to have two legends if needed with two utility sets, healing and elite plus the traits and sigils that take advantage of change/swap between legends. Today they nerfed some self sustain for revenants but buffed  Soulcleave's Summit: Increased healing by 50% in all game modes. Which will again makes it more useful in raid.

 

Anyway, I guess you must be happy because I think I remember you were worried that the Mirage build with staff / staff could outshine others that you play. Now it will not and still to watch if played, i doubt it will be meta from now. But we will see. 

Edited May 26, 2021 by Zoser.7245

[Hobyrimvrahms.6910]

Pretty sure alacren uses F4 over F3 and can be tight in energy, which is a big dps drop. Would love to hear if righteous rebel can achieved 40k.

[Cyninja.2954]

1 hour ago, Zoser.7245 said:

The change to the alacrity killed a probable fun build using a single staff together with other different weapon set but still able to keep full uptime alacrity with three ambushes. Not funny to watch how we lose diversity due to tweak raid numbers. They haven't changed it to make that build, maybe, 5% - 9% less lazy to play.  They only cared about numbers and not even thinking that the lose of that alacrity duration could remove some interesting build for PvE or even other game modes outside raid. And i really don't like that. A staff/staff is still a boring build anyways.  

 

Condi DPS Renegade is providing 40-41.2K dps , while Condi Boon Renegade 37.3k granted dps  while Mirage do 37.4k on Condi DPS and 30K granted before the nerf on Staff Condi Boon plus  a variable damage that depends of how much the boss attack.  Wiki Benchmarks

 

The amount of confusion aplied or not depends of the bounces. Raid  players doesn't like  inestable/variable dps, about all when the granted one will be significantly lower than 30k after the nerf.  Also if Renegade is preferred, is because it can use more supporting utilities and traits without sacrificing dps. Like the Assasin Presence, Razorclaw's Rage, Soulcleave's Summit, some traits from Invocattion as the dps difference is not big if you choose that trait line, etc. Also the flexibility to have two legends if needed with two utility sets, healing and elite plus the traits and sigils that take advantage of change/swap between legends. Today they nerfed some self sustain for revenants but buffed  Soulcleave's Summit: Increased healing by 50% in all game modes. Which will again makes it more useful in raid.

 

Anyway, I guess you must be happy because I think I remember you were worried that the Mirage build with staff / staff could outshine others that you play. Now it will not and still to watch if played, i doubt it will be meta from now. But we will see. 

It takes 2 RR condi renes for permanent alacrity. That's 1 more than alacmirage pre May 25th patch.

 

Traiting RR and using F4 on cd is a significant dps loss in the area of 4-5k versus the condi rene damage build. That's a total dps loss of 8-10k woth 2 RR rens. Single alacrene has to take significant amounts of boon duration for permanent alacrity (far more than solo alacmirage post May 25th change).

 

Soulcleave summit was severly nerfed with the May 11th patch. The buff it received today does not make up for that.

 

You are comparing alacmirage dps without accounting for confusion damage, which is a significant part of its damage. I'm not even sure how you believe that is a valid comparison.

 

You need to stop writing and do some homework on how classes behave and work in this game before returning to this thread.

Edited May 26, 2021 by Cyninja.2954