Dhuumfire is not fun on Scourge and thematically out of place for Reaper

[Saltmaker.9532]

As a condi scourge, to minmax Dhuumfire you have to be a human metronome unless you actually play with a metronome on your desk. And as a Reaper, you are a master of death and chills, yet your Reaper scythe autos somehow inflict burning. This trait need a long awaited overhaul, if you look at it in the Wiki, it's been bandaged several times instead of just changing what it does since the game first came out.

 

All suggestions for this are welcome, here's my take on it:

 

Bonestorm: Entering shroud create a Bonestorm at your location. Foes inside of Bonestorm are inflicted with Bleeding and Cripples. Allies inside of Bonestorm gain Resolution. Actual radius, bleeding stacks, durations, etc up to interpretation.

[Black Storm.6974]

I would really appreciate a rework of Dhumfire too, for some of the reasons you stated. Internal cooldown management is also one of the main reasons why I can’t play Condition Scourge.

 

I hope the new trait can benefit both core Necromancer and the Elite Specializations.

 

I’d add that, since Dhumfire is important to allow Reaper Shroud to do Condition damage, the new trait should maintain this feature (or it could be designed into Reaper itself).

 

Anyway, part of me think a mistake was to make every F skill of Scourge count as Shroud skill 1 when activating traits. 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Black Storm.6974

[Apokriphos.7042]

Dhuumfire is completely theme appropriate for necromancer. Even the original GW1 Dhuum by which the trait is based used fire damage on his skills. https://wiki.guildwars.com/wiki/Judgment_of_Dhuum. The reason it is clunky with scourge is due to progressive nerfs due to the initial OP spec design, and anti synergistic with reaper is due to chill being its main theme.

 

Considering this trait is the main source of damage on both condition Core and Reaper builds (which are basically non-competitive/meme), if it was to be reworked it would need to perform a similar or superior function.

 

I think the trait is perfectly fine as is. The issue with both specs (condi reaper, F1-5 skill dhuumfire synergy on scourge) goes far beyond this grandmaster trait. 

 

I think Spiteful Spirit, Blood Bank, Eternal Life, & Deathly Chill (reaper) are traits far more in need of a rework.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Apokriphos.7042

[Dadnir.5038]

See dhuumfire as some sort of frostfire on reaper and it make it thematically fine.

 

I don't like dhuumfire since it's release but I must say that I'm not really thrilled by the idea of more bleed. (Don't get me wrong, it would help a lot with gear choice but, nevertheless, it doesn't excite me.)

 

I do agree with Blackstorm that making every F skill of the scourge count as shroud 1 wasn't the best idea either. But it's also true that making 3+ traits proc on shroud 1 (that happen to be an Auto attack) wasn't the best idea either.

[Nimon.7840]

1 hour ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

See dhuumfire as some sort of frostfire on reaper and it make it thematically fine.

 

I don't like dhuumfire since it's release but I must say that I'm not really thrilled by the idea of more bleed. (Don't get me wrong, it would help a lot with gear choice but, nevertheless, it doesn't excite me.)

 

I do agree with Blackstorm that making every F skill of the scourge count as shroud 1 wasn't the best idea either. But it's also true that making 3+ traits proc on shroud 1 (that happen to be an Auto attack) wasn't the best idea either.

Could say the same about thief's steal skill 😄

[Dadnir.5038]

40 minutes ago, Nimon.7840 said:

Could say the same about thief's steal skill 😄

Thief's steal skill have a 20s CD. I wouldn't mind this amount of traits on any skill with 10 to 30s CD, my issue is that an AA do not have a CD.

[KrHome.1920]

The fact that Dhuumfire didn't break Reaper even though you can stack it up to 3 (Deathly Chill) or even 5 (Reaper's Onslaught) is just another example for what a gigantic impossible to balance design mess the Scourge spec is.

[Anchoku.8142]

Dhuumfire was nerfed a few months after its initial release because Necro could already load up opponents with conditions. I think Necro still has it for condi-burst potential and another way increase the number of types for a short time to pressure cleansing capability. Terror is even more of a burst but these two condition damage sources were not meant for regular availability. If it feels like it's too hard to get sustained dps from Dhuumfire, that is probably the dev's intent.

[KrHome.1920]

This was the original Dhuumfire. (It was btw. a Spite, but not Soul Reaping GM trait.)

"Players can inflict burning to opponents for 4 seconds on critical hit. This effect can only occur once every 10 seconds."

 

By today's standards this would be a laughable, extremely underpowered grandmaster trait. Even the current scourge version with the ICD is stronger than that, as scourges spam F-skills like any other skill.

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[Saltmaker.9532]

59 minutes ago, KrHome.1920 said:

This was the original Dhuumfire. (It was btw. a Spite, but not Soul Reaping GM trait.)

"Players can inflict burning to opponents for 4 seconds on critical hit. This effect can only occur once every 10 seconds."

 

By today's standards this would be a laughable, extremely underpowered grandmaster trait. Even the current scourge version with the ICD is stronger than that, as scourges spam F-skills like any other skill.

 

TBH I'd be okay with this version but match what it does now, so it procs on crits with a 1 sec ICD for 3s of Burning

[Obtena.7952]

The complaint doesn't make sense to me ... fun is subjective and it's plenty thematically correct ... if you want to be technical, there is such a thing as a 'cold burn'.

 

I'm probably in the minority but I LIKE Dhuumfire because it's the kind of trait that gives you reasonable amounts of condi damage without getting it from a weapon. It opens up some build diversity by allowing you to forego using Scepter. Anyways ... if the trait did get changed, if burning is boring, bleeds are doubly so ... so big no from me on that suggestion. 
 

Speaking of bad traits ... Scepter GM in Curses has to get fixed in a BAD way, more more than Dhuumfire does. I think my only complaint is that Dhuumfire seems misplaced in Soul Reaping. 

Edited May 18, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Methuselah.4376]

I'd say change the condition to 2x Torment. Dhuumfire on scourge is almost not worth the management as you will still get too little burning from it. It is far more important to proc the F1 for the torment now. 

[Yasai.3549]

There is nothing wrong with Dhummfire. 

[Asum.4960]

Honestly not sure why Dhuumfire even has an ICD with Scourge. 

The Trait is nerfed to complete death in PvP/WvW anyway and a 1 second Burn won't compete with Eternal Life even without the 5 Second ICD, and in PvE it's just a mild annoyance to have to space Fx's by 1 Second, while not affecting it's efficacy (which isn't great to begin with, ICD or not) in any way. 

 

If anything, Dhuumfire just needs a small buff and the ICD removed, and it's fine.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Asum.4960

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Dhuumfire is needed because of core design of necro in terms of conditions. Master of condition manipulation yes, but not condition application. Here necro is jack of all trades, able to inflict all damaging condies, but in moderate amounts, going for shotgun approach, rather than focusing on one particular condi.

For that end he needs a moderate source of burning for all specs. I think this trait is similar to blood bank - it gives a needed and logical features to all necro builds, but it's placement in traitlines is just wrong.

[Asum.4960]

14 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

This was the original Dhuumfire. (It was btw. a Spite, but not Soul Reaping GM trait.)

"Players can inflict burning to opponents for 4 seconds on critical hit. This effect can only occur once every 10 seconds."

 

By today's standards this would be a laughable, extremely underpowered grandmaster trait. Even the current scourge version with the ICD is stronger than that, as scourges spam F-skills like any other skill.

 

Not sure what your point here is, most launch Skills and Traits look laughable by today's powercrept standards (from Dhuumfire, to Maul to Permeating Wrath, so many moderns skills and Traits have doubled to quadrupled in damage/functionality/are multiple old Traits merged into one), and is in large part why so many players these days think GW2 was always meant to be casual/as easy as it is today.

 

By today standards I'd say Dhuumfire is actually fairly underwhelming, even for Condi Scourge it's like what, a 1-2k DPS boost? for a GM, less so compared to Eternal Life, a mainly defensive Trait (Demonic Lore in comparison being a 5k+ DPS boost).

Edited May 18, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Shadowmoon.7986]

Dhuumfire requires this restriction because it is overpowered on scourge compared to reaper or necro. On reaper and necro Dhuumfire prots on 1 skill, shroud auto attack while on scourge it triggers on 5 skills, 4 instant casts and 1 with a cast time. That means that outside of casting sand shroud, it would be procing on up to 4 instant cast skills while activating other skills.

[Asum.4960]

39 minutes ago, Shadowmoon.7986 said:

Dhuumfire requires this restriction because it is overpowered on scourge compared to reaper or necro. On reaper and necro Dhuumfire prots on 1 skill, shroud auto attack while on scourge it triggers on 5 skills, 4 instant casts and 1 with a cast time. That means that outside of casting sand shroud, it would be procing on up to 4 instant cast skills while activating other skills.

Again, I think people for some reason vastly overestimate Dhuumfire's efficacy. 

It's terrible on Core and Reaper (despite Auto Attacks obviously being much more readily available), and barely alright and a bit better for DPS than Eternal Life on even Scourge (simply because Scourge provides a better framework for condition builds in general - Reaper can apply a lot more burning with Dhuumfire than Scourge). 

 

Plus the ICD doesn't limit it's efficacy, if you spam all Shade skills at once or stagger them by 1 second each doesn't make much, if at all, of a difference DPS wise - it's just slightly annoying. 

 

Additionally, aside from a initial very slight "burst" from engaging with full LF, it's not like Shade skills won't be generally used well more than 1 second apart anyway to manage LF. 

 

For PvP and WvW an ICD did indeed make sense, but the Trait has been nerfed to a pitiful 1 second there since anyway.

Even spamming all Shade skills at once, if Dhuumfire had no ICD, it would be a mere  (effectively) 4 second burn at the cost of most/all LF and 4 cool downs. That's not exactly impressive and very far from OP, and still would in no way compete with Eternal Life, even in terms of damage for Condition builds, let alone Utility and surviveability. 

 

Now I actually do like Dhuumfire thematically as well as think it's alright mechanically (hey, at least it's no Symbolic Avenger), but it's not a great Trait efficacy wise and very far from OP with it's current values, even if it didn't have the ICD.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Black Storm.6974]

I have tried Scourge a bit since it got buffed, but I can’t play it, really, it is such a skill spam. I have to pay attention all the time to very short cooldowns and spam every skill as soon as available, eventually paying also attention to delay some skill for Dhumfire (but even without doing that, it is a pain to play).
 

The changes I’d propose to make the gameplay of Scourge less frenetic:

1. Change Manifest Sand Shade to no longer add Torment application to the other Shade skills.

2. Change the interaction between Shade skills and Traits so that only Manifest Sand Shade count as Shroud skill 1. Eventually set related traits to give different duration and number of stacks to Scourge (compared to core Necro and Reaper), changing the description of the traits accordingly.

 

Not having any reason to spam F2 and F3 (instant cast skills) every few seconds will make the gameplay much more enjoyable for almost everyone. Support skills will be used to support instead of being spammed to damage enemies while casting other skills.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Black Storm.6974

[KrHome.1920]

9 hours ago, Asum.4960 said:

Honestly not sure why Dhuumfire even has an ICD with Scourge. 

The Trait is nerfed to complete death in PvP/WvW anyway and a 1 second Burn won't compete with Eternal Life even without the 5 Second ICD, and in PvE it's just a mild annoyance to have to space Fx's by 1 Second, while not affecting it's efficacy (which isn't great to begin with, ICD or not) in any way. 

 

If anything, Dhuumfire just needs a small buff and the ICD removed, and it's fine.

It has an ICD in PvE because scourge can press 4 skills that trigger it at once creating a stack of 4 in the blink of an eye at 1000 range. That's not how the skill is supposed to work. It has an ICD in the competitive modes for the same reason and additionally because condi burst is not allowed there.

 

Quote

4 second burn at the cost of most/all LF and 4 cool downs. [...] That's not exactly impressive and very far from OP

That's just your opinion. A scourge fear chaining, stacking burns and covering these with corrupts is in fact OP.

 

Quote

Not sure what your point here is, most launch Skills and Traits look laughable by today's powercrept standards (from Dhuumfire, to Maul to Permeating Wrath, so many moderns skills and Traits have doubled to quadrupled in damage/functionality/are multiple old Traits merged into one), and is in large part why so many players these days think GW2 was always meant to be casual/as easy as it is today.

I referred to the posting right above mine. And you are stating the obvious - besides that GW2 has become easier. The game has become a lot more difficult for an average player. Even tournament players suck at the game these days and mostly rely on fotm stuff because they can't handle the increased complexity and pacing.

 

Edited May 18, 2021 by KrHome.1920

[Junkpile.7439]

How it's unfun? It's just extra damage. 🤦‍♂️ 

[Asum.4960]

6 hours ago, KrHome.1920 said:

It has an ICD in PvE because scourge can press 4 skills that trigger it at once creating a stack of 4 in the blink of an eye at 1000 range. That's not how the skill is supposed to work. It has an ICD in the competitive modes for the same reason and additionally because condi burst is not allowed there.

 

That's just your opinion. A scourge fear chaining, stacking burns and covering these with corrupts is in fact OP.

 

I referred to the posting right above mine. And you are stating the obvious - besides that GW2 has become easier. The game has become a lot more difficult for an average player. Even tournament players suck at the game these days and mostly rely on fotm stuff because they can't handle the increased complexity and pacing.

 

And yet you can for example take Eternal Armory, press a single button on a Spirit Weapon, and apply the same amount of Burn at the same range in PvP for a single CD, than a Scourge dumping all their class resources and most defensive Cooldowns if Dhuumfire had no ICD.

 

Not sure how you imagine a Scourge would "Stack and Cover" 1 second burns, even if they were worth covering, by the time you'd finish casting corrupts they would be gone already.

Even with Carrion Amulet, we are talking about less than 350 damage on Dhuumfire (131 Base damage) for Scourge. One hell of  a burst. Even *4 that would next to never be worth the LF and CD sacrifice, or compete with Eternal Life.

 

For PvE, stacking 10-20 burns in the blink of an eye is trivial for in example cRen or cFB. New builds such as Condi Deadeye stacking 25 Torment, 45 Poison and 20 Bleeds in ~4 seconds. 

 

Condi Scourge is the slowest ramping condi class, requiring around 20 whole seconds to reach just 30k DPS, I don't see any justification how 4 measly burns for dumping all LF would be in any way OP in the context of itself or compared to anything else.

 

Just stating that it's fsr not how it's supposed to work, or simply stating it's OP while not quantifying that in any way isn't very convincing. 

 

Was the 3 second base burn without ICD arguably overperforming years ago? Sure. But adding a clunky 5 second ICD and nerfing it's duration to 1 second (which keep in mind, also makes it scale a lot worse with condition/burn duration increases, aka, basically not at all), was imo too much (given how it's a completely dead Trait for SC in PvP since, akin to the 300CD Traits) and the Trait would be more than fine without ICD in all game modes, given it's current split of values - or rather at least in PvE, still qualify for a buff without ICD.

[Dadnir.5038]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

Was the 3 second base burn without ICD arguably overperforming years ago? Sure. But adding a clunky 5 second ICD and nerfing it's duration to 1 second (which keep in mind, also makes it scale a lot worse with condition/burn duration increases, aka, basically not at all), was imo too much (given how it's a completely dead Trait for SC in PvP since, akin to the 300CD Traits) and the Trait would be more than fine without ICD in all game modes, given it's current split of values - or rather at least in PvE, still qualify for a buff without ICD.

 

Well, it's always like that when instead of fixing the source of an issue you fix the consequences.

 

The source of the issue was Scourge's shades skills proc'ing Manifest sand shade making seemingly balanced skill go inceasingly stronger as you trait manifest sand shade. Nobody would have complained about an instant aoe skill that convert 2 conditions (nefarious favor)/grant some barrier (sand cascade)/fear (garish pilar) there wasn't anything more on top of it, however if you add some strike damage, might and diverse conditions (torment, cripple, vulnerability, burn, bleed on crit... etc.), it quickly goes out of what people can tolerate.

 

ANet choose to keep in check this festering wound that the Manifest sand shade proc is by wounding the most popular (and effective) traits (Dhuumfire and Path of corruption) that was exploited.

 

NB.: Right now, Scourge's cdps in PvE don't need any buff, it's in the sweet spot. People shouldn't even begin to suggest buff for PvE at the moment. Does it need QoL? Sure. Buff? No!

 

NB².: The whole balance process of the scourge have been the most ridiculous balance process I've ever seen in almost 30 year of gaming. Always avoiding to fix the issues, yet creating either visual cluster issues or huge drop in QoL to fix nothing.

[Asum.4960]

14 minutes ago, Dadnir.5038 said:

 

Well, it's always like that when instead of fixing the source of an issue you fix the consequences.

 

The source of the issue was Scourge's shades skills proc'ing Manifest sand shade making seemingly balanced skill go inceasingly stronger as you trait manifest sand shade. Nobody would have complained about an instant aoe skill that convert 2 conditions (nefarious favor)/grant some barrier (sand cascade)/fear (garish pilar) there wasn't anything more on top of it, however if you add some strike damage, might and diverse conditions (torment, cripple, vulnerability, burn, bleed on crit... etc.), it quickly goes out of what people can tolerate.

 

ANet choose to keep in check this festering wound that the Manifest sand shade proc is by wounding the most popular (and effective) traits (Dhuumfire and Path of corruption) that was exploited.

 

NB.: Right now, Scourge's cdps in PvE don't need any buff, it's in the sweet spot. People shouldn't even begin to suggest buff for PvE at the moment. Does it need QoL? Sure. Buff? No!

 

NB².: The whole balance process of the scourge have been the most ridiculous balance process I've ever seen in almost 30 year of gaming. Always avoiding to fix the issues, yet creating either visual cluster issues or huge drop in QoL to fix nothing.

Yea. The problem is the weak core of Necro, so the Profession mechanic needs to be overtuned to compensate, which then becomes very hard to balance with the whole profession riding or dying on that one mechanic/aspect of it. 

With the Weapons being as lacklustre as they are and so many Traits and general power tied to Shroud, getting the power of Shroud right to a point where it's neither oppressive nor leaves Necro useless is a nightmare.

Without the Manifest Sand Shade proc, Necro would need a lot of touching up to compensate for that, considering it's a very significant portion of it's damage. 

 

Things like the Cripple have already been long removed from Shades, so it's already a lot less oppressive - but a very large part of Scourge's performance is still tied to it. 

 

I agree Scourge is fine for PvE now, but again, removing the 1 second ICD of Dhuumfire wouldn't really be a buff to Scourge (aside from maybe the first 4 seconds of combat if entering with full LF and choosing to dump it all giving a miniscule boost to the slowest ramping condi profession in the game, which is imo fine), so it's mostly just QoL.

In PvP and WvW, the Trait is just dead atm, and still wouldn't compete with Eternal Life or Death Perception without ICD with the 1 second Burn as is. 

 

Imo both Chrono and Mirage have been a lot more ridiculous and harmful than Scourge, but yes, it's certainly been something.

[Dadnir.5038]

58 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

Imo both Chrono and Mirage have been a lot more ridiculous and harmful than Scourge, but yes, it's certainly been something.

 

If adding ICD on core traits to balance scourge, creating growing orange circle animations or having a trait that work differently in every game mode isn't ridiculous and harmful, what is?

 

Having a few core traits weakened by removing Manifest sand shade proc could have been easily compensated by slightly improving scourge's traits. Both demonic lore and Sadistic searing could have been improved to compensate the loss of cdps of removing manifest sand shade proc (Look, "Demonic lore: Proc burn on torment 3s ICD." If it's not poor design what is? "Sadistic searing: Make your next sand shade proc burn after using a punishment skill" any other profession would beg for this design to be changed if they had it in their kit, I mean imagine a guardian having a trait that allow him to apply a single stack of burn for 3s by using F1 after using a consecration. Just thinking about it is laughable.). Abrasive grit could have also been improved to compensate the loss on reaper's might. All that without having to temper with core traits.

 

I mean, they could have made the scourge stand by himself without him having to rely on traits that are already overly relied on by core and reaper. Instead of that they kept all the poorly designed things and choose to temper with what didn't need tempering to barely reach an arguably balanced state after 3 whole years.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Dadnir.5038