The greed, strong with you it is

[Nero.7369]

Well this is gonna be a bit of a rant and not about the balance stuff that going on for a long time now or the bad quality in the last few episodes, but about the mentality and the greed you seem to develop.

I played Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 alot and i loved them both and i liked to pay for an game/addon and just like to play whenever i like. Thats why I strongly dislike monthly fees, because it feels like wasted money if i dont play for some time then.  So would have to force myself to play, becaue i payed for it. Cause of that I only played one monthly fee game for a few month and never came back then. Guild Wars 1 was always free and there wasnt stuff like the Gem-Store to generate more money.  The Gem-Store itself can be controversial, but i just take it at this point, for additional income, to pay your server costs and develop some updates and I can absoultely live with that.

Things started when you started to want extra money for stuff you could give on top of the purchase.

Example 1: Glowing Masks
Well the first i was not amused was wheren you introduced the Glowing "Eye" Masks. Right now there are four of them: Glowing Crimson Mask, Glowing Green Mask Glowing Purple Mask and Glint's Gaze Mask. Basically it's four times the same designed Head piece, just with different colors. Different coloration is no really effort, usually we should be able to just dye them ingame. But no instead if someone wants to have them in all available colors, you charge those 4 times, while on your side you had the effort to design them once.

Example 2: Sets of Armor Skins, Outfits and Seperate pieces.

First there were Armor Skin Sets, those were really awesome and I think its absolutely okay with it to charge 800 gems for those. The great thing is you can combine different parts with another. But then you replaced those by kinda only releasing "Outfits", which can only used as whole and not combined. That's a huge value loss in my oppinion, but hey at least those only cost 700 gems. While I think that this is really sad, this is your decision. But it felt like that you are to lazy to outfits to different armor pieces. But the HUGE thing is I just realized that today, there are skins like the Ice Reaver Armor Pieces. And you charge 500 Gems per Piece, 6 pieces x 500 gems = 3000 gems. Back in the old days for such an armor set whould have cost 800 gems. Well played, well played. You may say, yea but the ppl that only want one piece, dont have to buy the fullset. Yes true, but the difference in value is huge. The price increased nearly by factor 4. I really feel like you are getting greedy there. 3000 Gems for an armor set is nearly as much as the addons.

Example 3: Loot Boxes

Really? Really? God kitten. I will just keep this short. This is just another form of gambling and this doesn't belong here. Specially not in a game that is rated for (i believe) an age of 12 years+. At least for the mount license lootbox you added a selection license. Black Lion Chest are still as bad as ever and some skins are kinda locked behind these.  And charging money for such gambling kitten, is pure greed in my eyes. I always thought you are the good ones, and created a game for the players. Seems like i was wrong.

Example 4: Not compensating immense value loss

Last but not least some thing that isnt as critical, but that makes me sad as well. Charging money for the wvw server system. In the beginning this was absoultely okay with me and all fine to prevent people from hopping servers all the time. But basically it is down to be only relevant in WvW, while I love playing WvW and i probably spent most of the time there this just is ridiulous. Many people left, we found new friends on other servers, but the game mode is kinda dead content wise. You haven't given any really big updates since the desert borderland. (Yes there are mounts now as well .. wuhu ...).  You teasert the alliance system years back which seems to make server transfers irrelevant. But you didnt say another word about it since then.
So basically you still charge the same (a lot) amount of money, so we can play with friends in a game mode that you don't bring new content for. I wouldn't mind to pay it to support the further development of the game mode. Since it's dead and you teasert the alliance system which I even expected before, I didnt like to pay any money for this in like 3 years. Which on the onesite makes me unhappy because I'd like to play with some people, but on the other hand I dont see a point in giving you money for that.

Last Words

I like to support a good game, but you should really reevaluate the value you want to charge for some stuff. Specially when it's basically no effort for you, so we won't feel ripped. Also please reevaluate the stand point on the Gambling. Maybe there are also other examples of bad gem for value ratios you people know about.
 

Edited May 18, 2021 by NeroBoron.7285

[Rihar.3465]

Seems this week is a week of revelations! Someone just realized the game one paid for doesn't actually belong to them. And here is another thread with concerns about gem store business model. Please, no offense, I'm just really surprised (no jokes) these things still surprise someone.

 

In short, you're correct. One of my favorite example is Revive Orb. It's a pure trash item which is currently available for 250/1 or 900/5. At the same time we can see that a unique mount skin can cost 1800/1. Does it mean that 10 revive orbs are equal to a mount skin? Of course not.

 

Selling similar items, but with different colors separately? Why not, people will have to buy multiple of them. Loot boxes? The most common thing in all online games. Yes, it is gambling. And the only reason you get statuettes is because it helps to "get around" the gambling law, so you get a guaranteed item (statuette) and everything else is just a random surprise. Selling armor pieces separately? Why not again? Releasing them with some intervals will help to blur the fact you spent, say, 3k in total. Because today you bought one piece, then another one two weeks later. Spending few hundreds of gems each week/month doesn't feel that depressing as spending 3k at once, right?

 

But it works, don't underestimate people. I know some of them who literally can't not to spend money each month on some virtual fancy items.

Edited May 18, 2021 by Rihar.3465

[Nero.7369]

Well I've realized back then as well, but today with the 3000 gems for an armor set that uses to cost 800 gems it was just insane another time. So I just wrote all the toughts down.

The revives were even expensive back then. 😅

And yea releasing those pieces over time is just another dirty trick in my opinion. And that those tricks work doesn't make it better. At least not if they want to be the good ones. Law is one thing, ethics another.

Edited May 18, 2021 by NeroBoron.7285

[Rihar.3465]

2 minutes ago, NeroBoron.7285 said:

Well I've realized back then as well, but today with the 3000 gems for an armor set that uses to cost 800 gems it was just insane another time. So I just wrote all the toughts down.

The revives were even expensive back then. 😅

And yea releasing those pieces over time is just another dirty trick in my opinion. And that thowse tricks work doesn't make it better. At least not if they want to be the good ones. Law is one thing, ethics another.

Yup, and a good marketing strategy is to find a balance between all these things. Make people to buy more, gamble and keep them interested in as long as you can, but don't overdo at the same time. Another good example is Mythic Weapons which cannot be bought separately, and only as a part of some bundle which usually costs 2k. A whole package is usually cheaper than standalone items, but in most cases you don't want all items from the bundle, rather something specific. This forces you to spend more for the items you don't really need because there is no way to obtain what you want.

 

And it all works. If it didn't work, there would be no gambling or in-game fancy stores.

[Vayne.8563]

It's silly to compare this game to Guild Wars 1. First of all Guild Wars 1 did have a cash shop, just not as prevalent.

That said, Guild Wars 1 wasnt' an MMO it was a lobby game with a much smaller overhead.  And things cost more now than they did then anyway. Compare the cost of voice acting alone in the two games.  Or the fact that all your characters in Guild Wars 1 were humans and here you have to make multiple suits of armor for different races.  Or different voices for different races.

 

At the end of the day, this game is far larger than Guild Wars 1 ever was, supporting a far bigger staff and supporting a much larger server architecture.  Unlike most MMOs it doesn't only charge a monthly fee, but doesn't have an optional monthly fee.  And I know for a fact there are people who never spend a dime and many people who just far gold to get cash shop stuff for free (I recently bought 4000 gems with gold myself).

 

At the end of the day, this game is less greedy than most other MMOs I've played. It's not a pay to win game, it allows cash shop items to be bought with gold and how many MMOs have a subscription fee AND a cash shop? How many MMOs have "optional" subscriptions that are just pay to walk?  

You can say the game is greedy, but when you compare it to the alternatives out there, it doesn't seem that way.  Are they selling stuff that's too expensive in the cash shop? Maybe. Do I need that stuff to play? 

Not at all.

[Obtena.7952]

I love the nonsensical title of the thread. Someone isn't 'greedy' if an item they sell is too expensive to you. Especially if it's stuff you can earn from playing instead of your RL money. 

 

Here is an idea though. Instead of making false accusations and looking ridiculous, just ignore the GS if it appears so 'greedy'. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Malitias.8453]

10 hours ago, Frozenize.9603 said:

FYI: Maybe Gw2 Community is a bit different from POE community but when I played POE I see people buying a glove skins with no huge effect for $5 and they are happy as f***. Well maybe POE community has mostly whales. Who knows

I think they're doing a much better job at marketing their shop.
The mere fact they're calling them "supporter packs" let's you know you are paying to support the product primarily and getting value secondarily. It appears more honest.
It's the difference between "Buy this armor pack for only 49.99$! Only available for a limited time!" and "If you want to support us with 50 bucks, we'll give you this shiny armor. Your support is greatly appreciated."

[Super Hayes.6890]

The fact that everything highlighted in the OP is optional really contradicts the point of the game becoming greedy.

[Malitias.8453]

6 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

It's silly to compare this game to Guild Wars 1.

Why is it called Guild Wars 2 if it's silly to compare it to Guild Wars 1?

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

32 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

I think they're doing a much better job at marketing their shop.
The mere fact they're calling them "supporter packs" let's you know you are paying to support the product primarily and getting value secondarily. It appears more honest.
It's the difference between "Buy this armor pack for only 49.99$! Only available for a limited time!" and "If you want to support us with 50 bucks, we'll give you this shiny armor. Your support is greatly appreciated."

Well, you do get a mail thanking you for your support when purchasing items from the Gem Store. 

I mean, don't most players know that purchasing anything is supporting the studio? 

[Malitias.8453]

14 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

Well, you do get a mail thanking you for your support when purchasing items from the Gem Store. 

Sure, but the focus is handled differently. GW2 has a shop that is trying to market the value of its items primarily. Granted, POE went more into that direction as well over time, but I still get more of a "you can support us here" vibe with POEs supporter packs.
 

14 minutes ago, Inculpatus cedo.9234 said:

I mean, don't most players know that purchasing anything is supporting the studio? 

The studio maybe, the game itself, not so much. There are lots of games out there with companies behind them that funnel the money from one game into a completely different product. It's quite common actually. From what I've heard ANet had some cancelled projects as well, which was probably quite expensive.

Edited May 19, 2021 by Malitias.8453

[kharmin.7683]

49 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

Why is it called Guild Wars 2 if it's silly to compare it to Guild Wars 1?

Is this a serious question?  It's well known that the Guild Wars title was only kept to maintain the franchise name.  The games are vastly different and it is somewhat unbelievable that players wouldn't notice just how different the games are to each other.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Malitias.8453 said:

Why is it called Guild Wars 2 if it's silly to compare it to Guild Wars 1?

For the same reason it would be silly to compare World of Warcaft to Warcraft.  They're different games. 
For the same reason it's silly to compare Windows 3.1 to Windows 10. 

One is an MMO and one isn't an MMO. One had a staff of about 50 and one has a staff of about three hundred.

You can compare anything obviously, but a name isn't a product. Guild Wars 1 and Guild Wars 2 are vastly different games. One is an active MMO, where you can use almost any skill while moving, the other was more of a static game.  Sure you can compare them. But because they have vast differences, including operating costs, what works for one won't for the other.

It's okay to compare them, if you want. It just don't really help an argument about funding it, considering how differences in running those two types of games.

The reason a game is called the same name even though it's a different game is to notify people that it's the same IP. That is to say you spend time and money building a brand, and you want people to know it's the same brand. But that doesn't mean that newer stuff won't have a much higher budget than older stuff, nor does it meant that you can produce them for the same money or fund them the same way.   

 

Think of Star Trek and Star Trek the Next Generation.  One had a much much bigger budget than the other one did...and thus required more funding.

[Malitias.8453]

4 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

For the same reason it would be silly to compare World of Warcaft to Warcraft.  They're different games. 

That's why it's called World of Warcraft, not Warcraft 4...

[Vayne.8563]

2 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

That's why it's called World of Warcraft, not Warcraft 4...

That you have here is a semantic argument.  Guild Wars 1  and Guild Wars 2 if nothing else would be seperated by time. Even if all things were equal, time ALONE can deeply change how much it can cost to make something.

But it was clear to anyone that did even the most minimal research that Guild Wars 2 was vastly different to Guild Wars 1. We knew it before launch. I knew it anyway. 

You can argue that making a game 8 years early with one race is the same thing as making a game 8 years later with 5 races...but the argument would likely be dismissed by most people because it makes no sense to argue it.

 

Guild Wars 1 Prophecies launched with 203 quests. Total. And 25 missions.  And 1 race. Guild Wars 2 lauched with 303 hearts, 1500 plus dynamic events. Five races which of which had it's personal story.

 

In fact, all four Guild Wars 1 titles PUT TOGETHER had less quests than Guild Wars 2 had dynamic events at launch. 

 

Guild Wars 1 wasn't an MMO and Guild Wars 2 is. The list is endless.

Compare them all you want, but don't pretend that time, complexity and scale don't affect budget. It negates any point you make trying to follow it.

[Malitias.8453]

58 minutes ago, kharmin.7683 said:

Is this a serious question?  It's well known that the Guild Wars title was only kept to maintain the franchise name.  The games are vastly different and it is somewhat unbelievable that players wouldn't notice just how different the games are to each other.

It's a rhetorical question. If you just increment the number behind a title, it implies it is a direct successor to the previous one.
Of course there are exceptions, but generally it is just common sense.
And of course GW1 and GW2 are vastly different, which begs the question why it's called Guild Wars 2 instead of something like Dragons of Tyria.
My point is the name leads people to have expectations the game is not meant to fullfill.

[kharmin.7683]

4 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

And of course GW1 and GW2 are vastly different, which begs the question why it's called Guild Wars 2 instead of something like Dragons of Tyria.
 

I answered this in my previous post.

[Malitias.8453]

1 minute ago, kharmin.7683 said:

I answered this in my previous post.

And I questioned that decision with
 

6 minutes ago, Malitias.8453 said:

My point is the name leads people to have expectations the game is not meant to fullfill.

 

[Dawdler.8521]

9 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Think of Star Trek and Star Trek the Next Generation.  One had a much much bigger budget than the other one did...and thus required more funding.

Tbh even the Ice Reaver skin is worth more than STD and 2 episodes of that have the budget of entire TNG/TOS seasons.

[Ashen.2907]

Getting upset that one cannot have someone else's property at a price more convenient to you....and the company is the one being greedy? Riiiight.

[Fenom.9457]

On 5/18/2021 at 1:10 PM, NeroBoron.7285 said:

Well I've realized back then as well, but today with the 3000 gems for an armor set that uses to cost 800 gems it was just insane another time. So I just wrote all the toughts down.

The revives were even expensive back then. 😅

And yea releasing those pieces over time is just another dirty trick in my opinion. And that those tricks work doesn't make it better. At least not if they want to be the good ones. Law is one thing, ethics another.

I don’t agree that the price for the new armor set is that bad, but if it helps you any - the old sets anet made many years ago that sold for 800 gems were only for one weight of armor. These skins are for all 3 weights. Yes they look the same across all three, but it’s still more freedom. Besides, we’ve been BEGGING them for YEARS to add some frigging armor, especially chest and leg pieces, that are the same across all weights. They came up with some BS excuse that outfits clearly invalidated, and that was all we can do. So in exchange for 

 

1. Stand-alone gemstore chest and leg pieces

 

2. chest and leg pieces that look the same across all weights

 

I am MORE than glad to pay the price they ask, it’s actually less than I expected. I would’ve bought the chest and legs at 800 each. I got the entire set last night and it was so satisfying knowing that they finally finished a full set instead of just throwing out yet more gloves, shoulders, helmets, and the occasional boots. I’d much rather pay this price for full sets than for outfits or pieces of an incomplete set

[voltaicbore.8012]

2 hours ago, Malitias.8453 said:

My point is the name leads people to have expectations the game is not meant to fullfill.

 

This is true, but also (imo) unfortunately hard to avoid. It's also a bit sad that the name "Guild Wars" itself refers to something that neither games' setting was contemporary with, at all.

 

The 'hard to avoid' part of my opinion comes from the idea that.... there's really not much else they could have called it. Even if legally possible, calling this game "World of Tyria" or "World of Guild Wars" would obviously make it sound like a lame imitation title ripped from WoW, so they'd probably have to end up going with something like "Guild Wars [insert stupid hype word here]" like many inferior MMOs that rebrand or re-release to prey on a fresh set of players. From a purely "how does it sound" perspective, "Guild Wars 2" imo is as good or better than the alternatives.

 

That said, I completely agree that the sequential number titling very clearly implies that this is somehow a successor title. "Successor" is, at best, an incomplete label, given that one core element of both games (the setting itself) is shared, but another huge core element (the gameplay itself) is utterly different. Like many other things about GW2, this is just an awkward hodgepodge when it comes right down to it.

 

I still don't think any of the things OP mentioned are particularly egregious. Yes, the 3000 gem price tag stings compared to 800 gem sets, but those are still just cosmetics. Maybe it's just me, but I don't actually like the vast majority of armor and outfits I see on the gem store. 99% of what my characters wear are carefully dyed mixtures of various in-game armor and weapon skins, and none of my characters wear the visual garbage known as infusions. The otter infusion will be the sole exception. So the steep pricing on cosmetic items in the shop never strikes me as much of a problem, but I acknowledge that I might just be personally immune to them and thus unaware of any real issues this might raise.

 

 

[Joote.4081]

They seem to have time to make piles of bright cosmetic garbage.  Not much to fix bugs though.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

I should hope the artists that create cosmetics don't try to fix bugs.

I'm sure that would not end well. 

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Joote.4081 said:

They seem to have time to make piles of bright cosmetic garbage.  Not much to fix bugs though.

What would make you think the bright shiny makers have a CLUE about how to fix bugs?