Give Herald 5 man quickness

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

Reasons why:

1. Health of the game - Herald can take multiple roles as a support - condi, power, or healer. That will let him not only join 5 man group content (which is far more restrictive in what's accepted compared to 10 man ones), but make room for offmeta healers that don't provide quickness like Tempests or Druids.

 

2. Balance with Renegade - Renegade is meta in raids, and meta in Fractals, Herald barely accepted in one and not welcomed in other. Reason for this is that Renegade STOLE part of Herald's core identity - reliable 10 man boon application, while not paying the price Herald payed - lack of access to top tier boons (alac, quickness) as well as lesser dps due to herald being defensive spec.
Herald never got anything in return. This would help balance the ledger, making Herald actually viable in smaller groups, and more justified in raids.
 

Edited May 31, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Touchme.1097]

1 hour ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Reasons why:

1. Health of the game - Herald can take multiple roles as a support - condi, power, or healer. That will let him not only join 5 man group content (which is far more restrictive in what's accepted compared to 10 man ones), but make room for offmeta healers that don't provide quickness like Tempests or Druids.

 

2. Balance with Renegade - Renegade is meta in raids, and meta in Fractals, Herald barely accepted in one and not welcomed in other. Reason for this is that Renegade STOLE part of Herald's core identity - reliable 10 man boon application, while not paying the price Herald payed - lack of access to top tier boons (alac, quickness) as well as lesser dps due to herald being defensive spec.
Herald never got anything in return. This would help balance the ledger, making Herald actually viable in smaller groups, and more justified in raids.
 

I strongly disagree, just because Renegade is Meta on Revenant doesn't mean Herald needs to bring more to the table compared to other supports. You already have boon strip, stability, life steal, condition transfer and other things provided by the Legendary Dragon stance, you don't need quickness.

Professions who can provide quickness lack on other things, this is the purpose of balance.

If Renegade felt too powerful while providing permanent alacrity then the only reasonable thing to do is a nerf to help Herald compete.

 

I agree with you on one thing though, Herald is underperforming and is in need of PvE buffs and Renegade is performing too well at the moment, I can see room for further nerfs on Renegade on the Condi side.

 

Reference for Herald's Dragon Stance and related boons

Herald - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Edited May 31, 2021 by Touchme.1097

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

2 hours ago, Touchme.1097 said:

I strongly disagree, just because Renegade is Meta on Revenant doesn't mean Herald needs to bring more to the table compared to other supports. You already have boon strip, stability, life steal, condition transfer and other things provided by the Legendary Dragon stance, you don't need quickness.

Professions who can provide quickness lack on other things, this is the purpose of balance.

If Renegade felt too powerful while providing permanent alacrity then the only reasonable thing to do is a nerf to help Herald compete.

 

I agree with you on one thing though, Herald is underperforming and is in need of PvE buffs and Renegade is performing too well at the moment, I can see room for further nerfs on Renegade on the Condi side.

 

Reference for Herald's Dragon Stance and related boons

Herald - Guild Wars 2 Wiki (GW2W)

Firstly - practice > theory. And practice clearly shows Herald is at best accepted into raid groups, while undesirable in 5 man endgame content (Fractals).

All the "advantages" you listed are actually small, redundant and mutually exclusive when playing Herald. I can go in depth as to why, but no need to make unrequested walls of text. Everyday reality proves my point.

Renegade has bigger damage, more desired supportive features and is even simpler to play.
I realize herald's potential is severely underestimated in raid groups, where he shines through extremely consistent raid wide boon application, self survival and either solid dps for a support (diviner herald) or raid wide strong regenrative healing (healer herald), which takes a lot of weight off primary healer's shoulders.

But I also realize his non-existence in fractals along with druid is not a matter of skewed perception. That's just people making rational choice of not including the "10 man guy" whose main pro (supports full 10 man squads) is nulled and voided, while main con (2nd rate boons and support features) stayed unchanged..

Edited May 31, 2021 by ZeftheWicked.3076

[Virdo.1540]

They could give a trait that switches the Protection-Facet into a 5man quickness facet. 

[Katary.7096]

5 hours ago, ZeftheWicked.3076 said:

Reasons why:

1. Health of the game - Herald can take multiple roles as a support - condi, power, or healer. That will let him not only join 5 man group content (which is far more restrictive in what's accepted compared to 10 man ones), but make room for offmeta healers that don't provide quickness like Tempests or Druids.

 

2. Balance with Renegade - Renegade is meta in raids, and meta in Fractals, Herald barely accepted in one and not welcomed in other. Reason for this is that Renegade STOLE part of Herald's core identity - reliable 10 man boon application, while not paying the price Herald payed - lack of access to top tier boons (alac, quickness) as well as lesser dps due to herald being defensive spec.
Herald never got anything in return. This would help balance the ledger, making Herald actually viable in smaller groups, and more justified in raids.
 

If you are of the opinion that a part of Herald's core identity is reliable 10 target boon application, then why not suggest that Herald can provide quickness to 10 targets as opposed to 5?

I am not strictly against the idea of quickness buffing on Herald, but my main concern would be balancing that effect outside of PvE.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

47 minutes ago, Katary.7096 said:

If you are of the opinion that a part of Herald's core identity is reliable 10 target boon application, then why not suggest that Herald can provide quickness to 10 targets as opposed to 5?

I am not strictly against the idea of quickness buffing on Herald, but my main concern would be balancing that effect outside of PvE.

That is because I'm a a vengeful person :3
Renegade got something that should be herald's  - 10 man boon application.
So Herald should get something that should belongs to renegade - 5 man boon, but a highly desired one.

Additionally 10 man quickness could make herald meta deleting other options - which is not what i want.
Last thing we need are 5 man groups with two mandatory revenants. But that does not mean that renegade should be

allowed to stay as undisputed meta and herald be locked in closet.

What i want is for herald to stand firmly on his own feet in 5 man content, and be desirable (but not irreplaceable) in 10 man content. In the former case major push is needed, in the latter slighter one, as he is close to being valuable support already, he just lacks a good sales pitch. Providing one subgroup with quickness while whole raid with lesser boons should do the trick.

[Virdo.1540]

They could also make Shield 4 give a boon based on the legend.

 

Shiro - Quickness.

Dwarf - Retal or Stability

Glint - Protection + boon extension

Ventari - Regen

Mallyx - Resistance

 

Shield is crap right now. 

[Scoobaniec.9561]

Herald should be defensive power support while rene offensive condi. Having 2 specs doing the same stuff in diff flavor never ends well

[Infusion.7149]

@ZeftheWicked.3076:
You'd have a point if herald did not have any way to give alacrity (it does, just not as effectively).

If a change as proposed is implemented it would be similar to the current staff mirage situation. A base class should not have access to more than one major boon without a drawback ; herald was already easily 30K+ if you run Notoriety instead of Assassin's Presence. The PvE change to Draconic Echo's 10 targets as baseline also means you could run Forceful Persistence now (+13% in non-Glint and +4% per upkeep skill in glint). Not every spec has to be overly strong in PVE, especially if it is highly used in competitive modes and other specs on the base class are highly wanted and effective (see condi RR, alac). This was the thinking that brought us the monstrosity that is WvW quickness scrapper which also supplies superspeed and stealth.

Renegade is a weaker power spec in competitive modes (generally) due to the loss of crit of damage which affects power more than condi. If you pay attention to the monthly ATs the renegades are usually bunker specs with dwarf legend (Jalis) ; in WvW it is almost exclusively brought for alacrity and is a weaker build overall than herald.

In 5 man scenarios, the current meta comp would produce easily 30K+ for CQB (or 3K+ for HB lol), 28K+ for alac , 3x DPS at 36K+. A comparable comp using quickness scrapper or StM chrono (less likely in fractals) would need to produce 140-170K party DPS : current quickness scrapper and StM chrono are <27K if you need boon duration and both lack might + fury for the party which won't be supplied by an alacrity renegade but can be supplied by an alacrity staff mirage (which can have questionable alacrity upkeep if you are not fighting a boss exclusively). Due to lack of low cooldown aegis output it is also less forgiving to run either quickness scrapper or StM chrono ; running Inspiration magic for aegis on StM chrono reportedly drops DPS to below 18K. CQB needs some scaling back along with the 40K+ CFB , it's not that other specs need more damage.

A change such as to Shared Empowerment in PvE instead would be exclusive to herald , as not being able to reliably produce 25 might is an issue in 5 man while running anything for quickness but firebrands. A similar change would be lengthening the Burst of Strength damage window or emphasizing power damage in PVE variants of Elemental Blast (this is ideal since you don't need to upkeep swiftness). I would be extremely wary of any change that pushes power renegade further, as of last patch it is 36K already and is relatively low risk.

Also where would you even put the quickness? It's not as simple as just "give it quickness". Each herald facet already supplies boons and the F2 True Nature skill already has additional functionality.

Overall pushing herald damage exclusively upwards a bit (not by much) and increasing the might output is far healthier than giving it a powerful new boon such as quickness. Another alternative is bolstering the ability to heal via Elevated Compassion as well as the alacrity on Natural Harmony when specced as Herald (see Soulcleave nerf) , which is less likely. We are currently able to run StM chrono and quickness scrapper instead of firebrands, but the major disadvantage in doing so (without druids) is the lack of might and fury. Might output from alacrity renegade is going to be a bit lacking, while staff mirage spits out might on autoattacks. Fury should be of no issue with heralds, but might remains the number one deficit.

[ZeftheWicked.3076]

52 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Herald should be defensive power support while rene offensive condi. Having 2 specs doing the same stuff in diff flavor never ends well

Ty, I'll pass.
We already had a case of "should be power" with Reaper. As a main necro to this day i hate that a great melee spec that was doing well in both power and condi variants was stripped down cause someone didn't like having options...

As for defensive part - so far i see only one defensive support that is not shunned, and even then the "defensive part" is a stretch - the Scourge. He can pull it off becuase he has two huge unique features - consistent party wide barrier application, letting all them squishies go 40+ dps builds and survive, and best in game resurrection ability, if they still managed to screw it up.
And let's not forget he can still output very solid damage as he's designed as offensive support actually, much like renegade.

Partially agreed on last part of your statement. But this is where renegade needs to take a step back, not Herald. Party protection should belong to Herald, not renegade. Nor should 10 man boon application, let alone something as desired as alacrity be handed to renegade no questions asked, while Herald got zip to counter-balance that feature.

 

[Za Shaloc.3908]

Just have to point out that *technically* Renegade had access to 10-man Alacrity before Herald had access to 10-man anything. The 10-man boons via Shared Empowerment and Draconic Echo came into existence from the August 28th, 2018 patch, almost a year after PoF had launched. 

 

Anyway, I do understand the reasoning behind your desire for Herald to have party-quickness, but honestly I am against it. I agree with @Infusion.7149's overall post that it being a better supplier of 25x might is a better and healthier goal, and perhaps boosting Natural Harmony's ability to provide Alacrity.

[Obtena.7952]

Neither of the reasons provided to make this change make sense.

 

1. The game 'health' is not affected by Herald having 5-man quickness boon share or not. I would actually argue that expanding quickness boon share over more classes is pretty UNHEALTHY thing to happen for the game. 

2. What is meta in different kinds of content is irrelevant to why something should be changed because the game is designed around balancing on the content side of things, allowing players to choose and play how they want. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Virdo.1540]

41 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

What is meta in different kinds of content is irrelevant to why something should be changed because the game is designed around balancing on the content side of things, allowing players to choose and play how they want. 

Doesnt matter what you play, if its not Meta or offmeta it will mostly likely result in a kick in pug groups. Doesnt matter how good/better than other you actually are with that playstyle

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, Virdo.1540 said:

Doesnt matter what you play, if its not Meta or offmeta it will mostly likely result in a kick in pug groups. Doesnt matter how good/better than other you actually are with that playstyle

That's not a problem. I've already explained to you multiple times in multiple threads why. 

 

"not meta" will never be a reason to buff something in this game because the game is designed so that not-meta builds can be successful. If getting kicked in PUG groups is a problem, the fix is based on players making a choice, not Anet changing the game. 

 

Also, you ignored point #1 so I really don't need to argue with you about how the current state of meta doesn't impact game design and change. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

14 hours ago, Touchme.1097 said:

I strongly disagree, just because Renegade is Meta on Revenant doesn't mean Herald needs to bring more to the table compared to other supports. You already have boon strip, stability, life steal, condition transfer and other things provided by the Legendary Dragon stance, you don't need quickness.

Professions who can provide quickness lack on other things, this is the purpose of balance.

 

If Herald had quickness it still wouldn’t “bring more than other supports.”  “Professions who provide quickness lack on other things” is categorically incorrect. 
 

Firebrand: Quickness, AEGIS, (10man) stability, Resistance, Resolution, Protection, Near 25 might for 5, Fury, group block, amazing Condi cleanse, great CC, regen, great healing, reflects. FB can do all of this at the same time and specialize into any one of them if it needs to. 

 

Chronomancer: TEN MAN Quickness, 5 man alacrity, 10 man Boon Extension, Amazing Boon Rip, Aegis, Stability, Condi cleanse, some healing, amazing CC, (with runes, Fury or Protection).  Chrono again can do all of this at the same time and specialize if needed. 
 

Herald: (no quickness), can give high 10 man might on long ramp up (not 25), fury, swiftness, protection, regen, Amazing CC, mediocre Condi cleanse, Boon Extension, Assassin’s Presence, some healing.  Can then specialize into:

 

Boon Rip, Resistance, ally Condi Cleanse: (Mallyx)

 

Small Boon Rip, 10 man weak lifesteal, (Shiro) 

 

Stability, 10 man 10% damage reduction, short 50% damage reduction (jalis) 

 

Big healing, some alacrity, projectile block, Condi cleanse (Ventari) 

 

While that looks awesome on paper, it becomes significantly worse when you realize it’s 1) mutually exclusive; Herald has to pick abd choose what it wants to do and drop the rest. Both chrono/FB can do nearly all of that without having to specialize, and 2) without the ability to provide 5 man quickness, 5-10man Alacrity, and/or 10man 25 stacks of might, Herald becomes regulated to “off healer” or “offmeta dps” instead since it can’t do any of the core roles particularly well. It can ALMOST do the Might role, but it lacks enough Might overall and its ramp time is huge. That role is  done much better by Mirage, Druid, and Tempest

So no, a class having quickness does not mean it’s weak in other areas. The two main quickness classes are able to do most things Herald can do without specializing. Herald could be given quickness and it would still be in line with the other classes. 
 

*im excluding scrapper from the above list simply because it only became “quickness relevant” on May 11th and seems like they’re still trying to figure out exactly how strong or weak it should be given that they already buffed it again a week ago. 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

13 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That's not a problem. I've already explained to you multiple times in multiple threads why. 

 

"not meta" will never be a reason to buff something in this game because the game is designed so that not-meta builds can be successful. If getting kicked in PUG groups is a problem, the fix is based on players making a choice, not Anet changing the game. 

 

Also, you ignored point #1 so I really don't need to argue with you about how meta doesn't impact game design and change. 

This is your balance philosophy but not everyone adheres to how you think the game should be balanced.  Some of us clearly don’t agree with your reasoning or logic. Personally I don’t find it to be sound. Anet doesn’t even 100% agree with your philosophy.   I don’t think asking for better parity between classes is excessive or out of line with the rest of the game. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Obtena.7952]

2 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

This is your balance philosophy but not everyone adheres to how you think the game should be balanced.  Some of us clearly don’t agree with your reasoning or logic. Personally I don’t find it to be sound. Anet doesn’t even 100% agree with your philosophy.   I don’t think asking for better parity between classes is excessive or out of line with the rest of the game. 

Well, let's be clear ... it's not MY balance philosophy. It's the balance philosophy that the game has had for over 8 years ... because there has NEVER been a time in this game where you couldn't be successful playing non-meta builds in instanced content. I mean, if how I'm calling it is not inline with Anet's balancing philosophy ... they sure have a REALLY bad way of showing it by continuing balancing that way. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Touchme.1097]

8 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

If Herald had quickness it still wouldn’t “bring more than other supports.”  “Professions who provide quickness lack on other things” is categorically incorrect. 
 

Nonsense, Professions who provide quickness lack on other things and I stand correct, for example you don't get boon strip and alacrity on Heal Firebrand, therefore giving Herald quickness is just too much

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 minutes ago, Touchme.1097 said:

Nonsense, Professions who provide quickness lack on other things and I stand correct, for example you don't get boon strip and alacrity on Heal Firebrand, therefore giving Herald quickness is just too much

Your conclusion doesn’t follow, sorry.  This is a specialization conversation, not a profession wide conversation.  And if it’s profession wide then Chrono/Mirage STILL do nearly all the things Herald/Renegade can do plus far more in terms of support.  They immediately show that your premise is flawed since Chrono/mirage can do all of the major offensive boons, boon strip, and most of the defensive ones on one profession 

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Your conclusion doesn’t follow, sorry.  This is a specialization conversation, not a profession wide conversation.  And if it’s profession wide then Chrono/Mirage STILL do nearly all the things Herald/Renegade can do plus far more in terms of support.  They immediately show that your premise is flawed since Chrono/mirage can do all of the major offensive boons, boon strip, and most of the defensive ones on one profession 

Well it's not really flawed because the class designs are independent of each other. They get the tools they get because of a theme, not because a particular tool like 5 man quickness boon share is some necessary part of game success. 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

22 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

If Herald had quickness it still wouldn’t “bring more than other supports.”  “Professions who provide quickness lack on other things” is categorically incorrect. 
 

Firebrand: Quickness, AEGIS, (10man) stability, Resistance, Resolution, Protection, Near 25 might for 5, Fury, group block, amazing Condi cleanse, great CC, regen, great healing, reflects. FB can do all of this at the same time and specialize into any one of them if it needs to. 

 

Chronomancer: TEN MAN Quickness, 5 man alacrity, 10 man Boon Extension, Amazing Boon Rip, Aegis, Stability, Condi cleanse, some healing, amazing CC, (with runes, Fury or Protection).  Chrono again can do all of this at the same time and specialize if needed. 
 

Herald: (no quickness), can give high 10 man might on long ramp up (not 25), fury, swiftness, protection, regen, Amazing CC, mediocre Condi cleanse, Boon Extension, Assassin’s Presence, some healing.  Can then specialize into:

 

Boon Rip, Resistance, ally Condi Cleanse: (Mallyx)

 

Small Boon Rip, 10 man weak lifesteal, (Shiro) 

 

Stability, 10 man 10% damage reduction, short 50% damage reduction (jalis) 

 

Big healing, some alacrity, projectile block, Condi cleanse (Ventari) 

 

While that looks awesome on paper, it becomes significantly worse when you realize it’s 1) mutually exclusive; Herald has to pick abd choose what it wants to do and drop the rest. Both chrono/FB can do nearly all of that without having to specialize, and 2) without the ability to provide 5 man quickness, 5-10man Alacrity, and/or 10man 25 stacks of might, Herald becomes regulated to “off healer” or “offmeta dps” instead since it can’t do any of the core roles particularly well. It can ALMOST do the Might role, but it lacks enough Might overall and its ramp time is huge. That role is  done much better by Mirage, Druid, and Tempest

So no, a class having quickness does not mean it’s weak in other areas. The two main quickness classes are able to do most things Herald can do without specializing. Herald could be given quickness and it would still be in line with the other classes. 
 

*im excluding scrapper from the above list simply because it only became “quickness relevant” on May 11th and seems like they’re still trying to figure out exactly how strong or weak it should be given that they already buffed it again a week ago. 

Or better they just nerf CQB mantra of solace.

 

If you run chrono lately in any 5 man scenario you'd know that chrono isn't the problem. Also if you run a rune for fury + might (lol) it still isn't 100% uptime (easy math: 8s base duration, 30 cooldown) and your damage will be below garbage because inspiration chrono is <18K benchmark in a highly controlled environment where your clones don't pop assuming you even have external slow sources. If you mean StM domination+dueling chrono, then you don't aegis at all and any subpar healing would be exclusively from wells. The condi clear on others is also near non-existent because you get 1 condi clear when you use a heal skill even with inspiration traitline unless you run power cleanse as a utility. It's always been that way which is why you run chrono with druid.

If you want aegis on chrono you need signets. It's aegis OR weak heals on wells that people need to stand in. The "amazing CC" you speak of vanishes when you need wells and Time Warp.

10 man quickness is also quite unwieldy, StM itself is only 5 man so you need to reposition to even hit 10 people.

Your point about mirage is also confused because alac mirage runs staff not sword. The boon rip is non-existent on the staff mirage build, it runs Infinite Horizon not Dune Cloak.

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well, let's be clear ... it's not MY balance philosophy. It's the balance philosophy that the game has had for over 8 years ... because there has NEVER been a time in this game where you couldn't be successful playing non-meta builds in instanced content. I mean, if how I'm calling it is not inline with Anet's balancing philosophy ... they sure have a REALLY bad way of showing it by continuing balancing that way. 

Anet has a budget and amazingly they can’t spend all of it on balance.  They don’t make money purely through balance.  That doesn’t mean they don’t want higher parity between classes. The result is not the same as the philosophy or the intent. 
 

An example:  recently Anet buffed Scrapper to be able to compete as a 5 man quickness support. It was previously possible to take a full team of Scrappers and complete all content. Using your philosophy, Why would Anet intentionally buff a class that can already clear all content?  More specifically, why would they buff it with the intention of creating another “5man quickness party support” that could provide additional options to the meta Chrono/FB?  If they don’t care about the meta I don’t see why they would feel it necessary to provide more supports to fill meta roles in a party/raid comp. 

 

another example:  they recently nerfed Firebrand burning burst because it was overperforming in fractals and chosen by a huge amount of people.  It was possible to complete all fractals on all modes with all classes.  Using your philosophy, why would they nerf Firebrand?  Surely they don’t care about the meta...

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Or better they just nerf CQB mantra of solace.

 

If you run chrono lately in any 5 man scenario you'd know that chrono isn't the problem. Also if you run a rune for fury + might (lol) it still isn't 100% uptime (easy math: 8s base duration, 30 cooldown) and your damage will be below garbage because inspiration chrono is <18K benchmark in a highly controlled environment where your clones don't pop assuming you even have external slow sources. If you mean StM domination+dueling chrono, then you don't aegis at all and any subpar healing would be exclusively from wells. The condi clear on others is also near non-existent because you get 1 condi clear when you use a heal skill even with inspiration traitline unless you run power cleanse as a utility. It's always been that way which is why you run chrono with druid.

If you want aegis on chrono you need signets. It's aegis OR weak heals on wells that people need to stand in. The "amazing CC" you speak of vanishes when you need wells and Time Warp.

10 man quickness is also quite unwieldy, StM itself is only 5 man so you need to reposition to even hit 10 people.

Your point about mirage is also confused because alac mirage runs staff not sword. The boon rip is non-existent on the staff mirage build, it runs Infinite Horizon not Dune Cloak.

So you misinterpreted a lot of my post so let me clear that up.  I'm aware of all the technical limitations you're pointing out and since it's irrelevant to the overall point of my post I'm going to just disregard all of that (for example I barely mention Mirage and it wasn't the crux of my argument at all).  My post was aimed at the comment "If your class has quickness it is weak in other areas."  This is clearly not the case as both FB and Chrono are not weak at all in terms of boon/other support.  My above comment is assuming full boon specs, not the more meta QFB/STM hybrid support/damage builds.  Heal FB and Full Boon Chrono are still insanely powerful in terms of boon support even while providing 5 or 10 man quickness.  Obviously the "I need all the damage I can get" versions of the builds are not as effective at boon support as a full on dedicated heal/boon version of the build.  I'm discussing what's possible for the class since the comment I was responding to made a blanket comment about what was possible for a class with quickness.

Again, the crux of my post discusses fully decked out boon support builds in a counter argument to the idea that "Quickness means the class is weak in another area" = "Herald can't be given quickness because then it wouldn't be weak in any areas."  I showed this is false because the premise "quickness means a class is weak in another area" is very clearly incorrect when examining the two main quickness supports, Chronomancer and Firebrand.  I also showed that giving Herald 5 man quickness would simply make it competitive with Chrono and Firebrand; it wouldn't overpower the spec and allow it to do too much.    

[Infusion.7149]

10 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

So you misinterpreted a lot of my post so let me clear that up.  I'm aware of all the technical limitations you're pointing out and since it's irrelevant to the overall point of my post I'm going to just disregard all of that (for example I barely mention Mirage and it wasn't the crux of my argument at all).  My post was aimed at the comment "If your class has quickness it is weak in other areas."  This is clearly not the case as both FB and Chrono are not weak at all in terms of boon/other support.  My above comment is assuming full boon specs, not the more meta QFB/STM hybrid support/damage builds.  Heal FB and Full Boon Chrono are still insanely powerful in terms of boon support even while providing 5 or 10 man quickness.  Obviously the "I need all the damage I can get" versions of the builds are not as effective at boon support as a full on dedicated heal/boon version of the build.  I'm discussing what's possible for the class since the comment I was responding to made a blanket comment about what was possible for a class with quickness.

Again, the crux of my post discusses fully decked out boon support builds in a counter argument to the idea that "Quickness means the class is weak in another area" = "Herald can't be given quickness because then it wouldn't be weak in any areas."  I showed this is false because the premise "quickness means a class is weak in another area" is very clearly incorrect when examining the two main quickness supports, Chronomancer and Firebrand.  I also showed that giving Herald 5 man quickness would simply make it competitive with Chrono and Firebrand; it wouldn't overpower the spec and allow it to do too much.    

Given that herald has fixed utilities on glint , you do realize it would mean nerfs for power herald right? Do you feel that it would be worth it just for PvE quickness? Why tunnel vision on one mode when revenant doesn't even have issues getting into groups?

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Well it's not really flawed because the class designs are independent of each other. They get the tools they get because of a theme, not because a particular tool like 5 man quickness boon share is some necessary part of game success. 

Why does Scrapper's theme suddenly include party-wide quickness 6 years later?