Proposed Name Changes For Superior Rune Of The Trapper

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

poll poll poll - not sure why it's not letting me post a poll

 

weird ok, anyway, there it is

Edited May 31, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Stand The Wall.6987]

https://imgur.com/3cwv9d3

superior rune of the precious

 

Edited May 31, 2021 by Stand The Wall.6987

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

In all seriousness though, Rune Of The Trapper needs to go down to 1s stealth 1s super speed.

 

I know some people like the feel of this build but the detarget value is strong enough just to be able to stealth off traps at all. It doesn't need elongated stealths & super speeds. 

Edited June 4, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

2 hours ago, Stand The Wall.6987 said:

https://imgur.com/3cwv9d3

superior rune of the precious

 

 

Somehow that jpg has the perfect symbolic & analogical inflection for exactly what Dragonhunter players felt like when they were at the bottom tiers of viability and then found Rune Of The Trapper.

 

That is actually very funny lol.

Edited June 1, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Dadnir.5038]

How about: Superior runes of broken trap?

 

After all each time it's used in a build, traps suddenly feel broken to the point that ANet nerf them. I mean:

1. - At released of the runes when rangers used it with their ground targeted ranged trap, it was awesome. And somehow, ANet removed the range aspect of the traps from the ranger to fix that (It worked well, people stop using both runes and traps).
2. - Then there was this super fun trap thief build that made use of the runes and the fact that their traps didn't deal power damage. You were able to kill anyone without hitting them and never being seen. ANet fixed it by adding very low amount of power damage on triggering a trap (Same as ranger, the fix worked very well, people just stopped using both runes and traps).

Now, we've got DH exploiting the runes and it's been a bother for quite a few months. ANet devs even tried to fix it by nerfing around traps.

 

Thematically, I could very weel see trap added to:

1. - Elementalist: Elemental traps feel like something that could happen (it wouldn't be original thought).
2. - Engineer: Who else would be more qualified than an engineer to make traps?
3. - Mesmer: Mind trap seem legit.
4. - Revenant: Legendary trapper (Well good thing would be that revenant's utilities are uncategorized so there probably wouldn't be any issue there).

So what would be our next poison with superior runes of the broken trap?

 

[GuriGashi.5617]

Not hearing the same about classes you play, because the actual question is - why does Ranger stealth more than Thief?
The sustain capabilities of a Ranger with Smokescale stealth all over the place, allowing them to sustain 2v1‘s and 3v1‘s on sidenode and creating outnumbered situations on the rest of the map, is alot more oppressive to the meta than the sustain of a full glass-canon, 11K HP Drahonhunter with 3 Stealths that instantly reveal you.

I can‘t even comprehend how DH with Trapper Runes is supposed to be somehow „broken“ with Renegade, Soulbeast and Holo outperforming it as roamers in every sort of way

Edited June 1, 2021 by snoow.1694

[Quadox.7834]

superior rune of the are traps gay?

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

On 6/1/2021 at 7:42 AM, snoow.1694 said:

Not hearing the same about classes you play, because the actual question is - why does Ranger stealth more than Thief?
The sustain capabilities of a Ranger with Smokescale stealth all over the place, allowing them to sustain 2v1‘s and 3v1‘s on sidenode and creating outnumbered situations on the rest of the map, is alot more oppressive to the meta than the sustain of a full glass-canon, 11K HP Drahonhunter with 3 Stealths that instantly reveal you.

I can‘t even comprehend how DH with Trapper Runes is supposed to be somehow „broken“ with Renegade, Soulbeast and Holo outperforming it as roamers in every sort of way

 

That's not even within the ballpark of being true.

 

1. Stealthing with Smokescale is a prebuff kind of thing that is very clunky to pull off. It's not the same as having a bunch of on-demand stealth skills.
2. Rangers cannot hold 1v2s and 1v3s on side nodes my good dude. If you're talking p2+ vs. gold 1 ok, but the same could be done with any class at that point. When you are talking p2+ vs. p2+ Ranger is middle tier at best on side nodes right now.
3. Please explain to me how a Ranger is holding a node 1v3 while constantly stealthing in the way that you seem to believe it is capable of doing.
4. Something doesn't need to be broken OP massively strong to be stupid. I had ran a test on this via twitch and posted it awhile back, which I'm sure some people remember. I'm sorry but DHs do not need so much stealth & super speed that they can run from mid in legacy to far in legacy, while completely stealthed.

Aside from what you've tried to say in your post here, Ranger/Druid/Soulbeast is more on par with Engineer for stealthing. But in terms of self-stealthing capabilities, DH is very seriously on par with DP Daredevil for stealthing right now. You could try and use Rune Of The Stealth God on Ranger, but it doesn't pan out nearly as well as it does on DH because traps on Ranger are kind of a bad option to begin with. But even so, even if the Runes were very useful on Ranger, that is not the Ranger's fault, it is the Rune's fault that it would be granting so much more stealth to Ranger. And thus the point of this thread.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Trevor Boyer.6524

[Math.5123]

... and furthermore I would like to see any form of DH builds to be deleted. 

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Well that settles it.

 

New name is "Rune Of Why Is Dragonhunter Stealthing More Than My Thief"

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

23 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

... and furthermore I would like to see any form of DH builds to be deleted. 

 

Nah, just the one that gives them stealth. and superspeed. If they need additional sustain to function while perpetually visible they should get that, but seeing as how core guard functions alright at the moment I'm pretty sure it doesn't need much. 

[Math.5123]

Just now, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Nah, just the one that gives them stealth. and superspeed. If they need additional sustain to function while perpetually visible they should get that, but seeing as how core guard functions alright at the moment I'm pretty sure it doesn't need much. 

In what world does dps core guard function alright?

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

 

16 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

In what world does dps core guard function alright?

 

Core burning and Core support guard both have minorly successful builds at the moment, and core DPS, while not completely adequate, is almost there. 

 

There's no situation that justifies the Dragonhunter being able to open on you for 8k untelegraphed on an 8 second cooldown, much less everything else the current Trapper DH build affords. If people were justified in not being alright with thieves backstabbing them for 8-9k on glass builds untelegraphed prenerf, they are justified in being upset about this. 

 

DH can be viable another way once trapper runes are adjusted, but it's doing the same thing thief got whined out of its damage builds for, only better right now, and it's astounding disappointing to see the same people who would have thief gutted defend this. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[Math.5123]

19 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

 

Core burning and Core support guard both have minorly successful builds at the moment, and core DPS, while not completely adequate, is almost there. 

 

There's no situation that justifies the Dragonhunter being able to open on you for 8k untelegraphed on an 8 second cooldown, much less everything else the current Trapper DH build affords. If people were justified in not being alright with thieves backstabbing them for 8-9k on glass builds untelegraphed prenerf, they are justified in being upset about this. 

 

DH can be viable another way once trapper runes are adjusted, but it's doing the same thing thief got whined out of its damage builds for, only better right now, and it's astounding disappointing to see the same people who would have thief gutted defend this. 

Trust me, no one would be happier than us guard players if we could exist without trapper runes. But comparing dh dmg to thief dmg is not really fair either. 

Dh runs 3 offensive traitlines with a total of 9 damage modifiers. Thief runs 1, ish. Say you would play bound thief with crit strikes and deadly arts. You would see equal to, or even higher numbers than those currently being pulled on DH right now. 

 

You can't compare a class running 3 defensive utilities and 2 defensive traitlines to something that goes for literally full offense.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Math.5123

[Crab Fear.1624]

19 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

Trust me, no one would be happier than us guard players if we could exist without trapper runes. But comparing dh dmg to thief dmg is not really fair either. 

Dh runs 3 offensive traitlines with a total of 9 damage modifiers. Thief runs 1, ish. Say you would play bound thief with crit strikes and deadly arts. You would see equal to, or even higher numbers than those currently being pulled on DH right now. 

 

You can't compare a class running 3 defensive utilities and 2 defensive traitlines to something that goes for literally full offense.

As a god tier guardian, what would be in the rune that could replace that stealth?

 

Thematically, or whatever, perhaps they are letting this run long so when guards get stealth in the next xp we will be used to it, they already got teleports...

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

15 minutes ago, Math.5123 said:

Trust me, no one would be happier than us guard players if we could exist without trapper runes. But comparing dh dmg to thief dmg is not really fair either. 

Dh runs 3 offensive traitlines with a total of 9 damage modifiers. Thief runs 1, ish. Say you would play bound thief with crit strikes and deadly arts. You would see equal to, or even higher numbers than those currently being pulled on DH right now. 

 

You can't compare a class running 3 defensive utilities and 2 defensive traitlines to something that goes for literally full offense.

 

 I was comparing the situation those classes created for their targets. Also, sure I can. The classes may be different mechanically, but the method of how they output damage (and how avoidable that damage is) are all comparable. 

 

The only reason you -dont- see thieves running all offensive traitlines is because it handicaps their initiative and ability to avoid damage so severely that it's unviable to use. If it -was- viable and people actually ran it, you'd see the same complaints you do for Dragonhunter. 

 

8-9k untelegraphed openers are 8-9k untelegraphed openers, regardless of how you get there. If you're going to hit someone for 9k+ the attack that is going to do that damage to them needs to be visible, the class that delivers that 9k+ needs to die to a stiff breeze, the attack needs to take several seconds to charge, or all of the above. 

[Ragnar.4257]

4 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Nah, just the one that gives them stealth. and superspeed. If they need additional sustain to function while perpetually visible they should get that, but seeing as how core guard functions alright at the moment I'm pretty sure it doesn't need much. 

Comparing the sustain of a core-support guard running healing amulet, weapons that deal zero damage, and 9 healing traits, to a full-zerker build with 9x damage traits.

 

Wat.

We also gonna say that core-zerk-ele sustain is fine because water-weaver? Berserker sustain is fine because Healbreaker?

Edited June 3, 2021 by Ragnar.4257

[anduriell.6280]

I think the rune is balanced i should not be changed. I propose to change DH skills from "traps" to "Surprise mechanics" 

[DanSH.6143]

I voted for it's balanced because there wasn't any other otion.

It is balanced in my opinion. Dragon Hunter and Ranger trapper builds are extremely weak without it. With the tune they're just ok.

What's true is that the runes are annoying, because they're adding a lot of stealth to builds that won't have any at all without it.

If you remove the runes, or just stealth from the runes. all Dragon Hunter and Ranger Trapper builds are dead completely. 

And personally why I find fighting trapper rangers and DH annoying too somewhat, it's still a lot less annoying than even just fighting against a d/p daredevil with a lot of evades, stealth and mobility (not saying it's op, just annoying).

Condi DH was nerfed to the ground, its damage output was cut by more than half, Zerk DH got a very very slight buff to LB 5 and 4 which doesn't really affect its viablity. 

If you want to change trapper runes, you need to compensate Dragon Hunter as a whole, and maybe buff ranger trap builds too.

[Math.5123]

8 hours ago, Crab Fear.1624 said:

As a god tier guardian, what would be in the rune that could replace that stealth?

 

Thematically, or whatever, perhaps they are letting this run long so when guards get stealth in the next xp we will be used to it, they already got teleports...

Right now, nothing. Guardian lacks in so many areas that this rune is a necessary evil for the moment. But as a substitute, give DH a passive 250 vit trait and give f2 an evade frame. Along with maybe removing the cast time on f3.

Giving guard a source of swiftness would also be appreciated. 

 

Alternatively, reduce the amount of unblockables across all classes. Dh included. 

Thief alone has 3 different skills to cancel the one viable healskill guard has access to, rendering the guard with no heal as it goes on full cooldown when interrupted. 

8 hours ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

 I was comparing the situation those classes created for their targets. Also, sure I can. The classes may be different mechanically, but the method of how they output damage (and how avoidable that damage is) are all comparable. 

 

The only reason you -dont- see thieves running all offensive traitlines is because it handicaps their initiative and ability to avoid damage so severely that it's unviable to use. If it -was- viable and people actually ran it, you'd see the same complaints you do for Dragonhunter. 

 

8-9k untelegraphed openers are 8-9k untelegraphed openers, regardless of how you get there. If you're going to hit someone for 9k+ the attack that is going to do that damage to them needs to be visible, the class that delivers that 9k+ needs to die to a stiff breeze, the attack needs to take several seconds to charge, or all of the above. 

So take deadeye, it can open for 7-9k with death judgement from stealth without any form of tell. With far more invis, mobilty and sustained damage. (While running shadow arts)

Edited June 3, 2021 by Math.5123

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

6 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

So take deadeye, it can open for 7-9k with death judgement from stealth without any form of tell. With far more invis, mobilty and sustained damage. (While running shadow arts)

 

>Without any form of tell

 

There's a noise indication before DJ starts traveling, a bright orange line between you and the thief indicating the direction it came from, and the thief has to tag you with Deadeye's mark, announcing their presence before they get access to that damage. And it reveals the thief before its used.

 

Back at the onset, it used to open for more than that and was unblockable, to boot. Since then it has had several nerfs and silent scope uptime has been shortened significantly

 

>With shadow arts

 

That's the point. Even with what I mentioned above, you still have to take a defensive line to not explode. Two if you want the initiative cap increase Trickery affords.

Tell you what though; that being said, why not adjust it the way they did deadeye then? Have both Spear of Justice and True shot apply revealed to the guardian as the skill starts instead of nerfing trap runes. That also fixes the issue.

 

 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[DanSH.6143]

3 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

>Without any form of tell

 

There's a noise indication before DJ starts traveling, a bright orange line between you and the thief indicating the direction it came from, and the thief has to tag you with Deadeye's mark, announcing their presence before they get access to that damage. And it reveals the thief before its used.

 

Back at the onset, it used to open for more than that and was unblockable, to boot. Since then it has had several nerfs and silent scope uptime has been shortened significantly

 

>With shadow arts

 

That's the point. Even with what I mentioned above, you still have to take a defensive line to not explode. Two if you want the initiative cap increase Trickery affords.

Tell you what though; that being said, why not adjust it the way they did deadeye then? Have both Spear of Justice and True shot apply revealed to the guardian as the skill starts instead of nerfing trap runes. That also fixes the issue.

 

 

That's understanding it completely backwards.

His point was that Deadeyes *can* take Shadow Arts, a defensive traitline, while still dealing a lot of dmg. 

Zerk DH has to run full dmg traits, even on Virtues which is genrally a hybrid between defense and offence, we take 2 DPS traits.

We only have 1 defensive trait in the entire build.

Most other specs can take a lot more defensive traits than us, because they have more damage baked in.

 

I don't think I've even lost 1 game vs a DH in the enemy team. They die instantly when focused. I always focus them first, since they're the easiest target to kill.

[Math.5123]

44 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

>Without any form of tell

 

There's a noise indication before DJ starts traveling, a bright orange line between you and the thief indicating the direction it came from, and the thief has to tag you with Deadeye's mark, announcing their presence before they get access to that damage. And it reveals the thief before its used.

 

Back at the onset, it used to open for more than that and was unblockable, to boot. Since then it has had several nerfs and silent scope uptime has been shortened significantly

 

>With shadow arts

 

That's the point. Even with what I mentioned above, you still have to take a defensive line to not explode. Two if you want the initiative cap increase Trickery affords.

Tell you what though; that being said, why not adjust it the way they did deadeye then? Have both Spear of Justice and True shot apply revealed to the guardian as the skill starts instead of nerfing trap runes. That also fixes the issue.

 

 

I guess you didn't know you cast dj without a target and then retarget mid-cast to skip the sound queue and the beam. And the dh tether is at least as much of a  tell as mark is. As it even pulses reveal on the dh making him unable to stealth to cast trueshot.

 

 

[Azure The Heartless.3261]

2 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

I guess you didn't know you cast dj without a target and then retarget mid-cast to skip the sound queue and the beam. 

 

 

 

Still have the mark even if this is true. if you wanna fix that go for it .

 

2 hours ago, Math.5123 said:

 the dh tether is at least as much of a  tell as mark is. As it even pulses reveal on the dh making him unable to stealth to cast trueshot.

 

 

 

What?

 

No it doesn't. Trapper rune even hides the tether despite continuing to output Justice. Kind of ironic given the post above also.

 

Look. I'm not here trying to nerf DH into oblivion. However you wanna fix it so you cant 9k trueshot out of stealth, go for it. I'm just surprised how averse people are to giving up untelegraphed 9k hits when time and time again that has been the focus of many a whine thread on these forums. Just reveal yourself before nuking someone. 

 

3 hours ago, DanSH.6143 said:

His point was that Deadeyes *can* take Shadow Arts, a defensive traitline, while still dealing a lot of dmg. 

Zerk DH has to run full dmg traits, even on Virtues which is genrally a hybrid between defense and offence, we take 2 DPS traits.

 

 

That doesn't at any point justify being able to hit people out of stealth for 9k with no telegraph. You can have the damage, but self reveal first so the bow charging is visible. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Azure The Heartless.3261

[DanSH.6143]

13 minutes ago, Azure The Heartless.3261 said:

 

Still have the mark even if this is true. if you wanna fix that go for it .

 

 

What?

 

No it doesn't. Trapper rune even hides the tether despite continuing to output Justice. Kind of ironic given the post above also.

 

Look. I'm not here trying to nerf DH into oblivion. However you wanna fix it so you cant 9k trueshot out of stealth, go for it. I'm just surprised how averse people are to giving up untelegraphed 9k hits when time and time again that has been the focus of many a whine thread on these forums. Just reveal yourself before nuking someone. 

 

 

 

That doesn't at any point justify being able to hit people out of stealth for 9k with no telegraph. You can have the damage, but self reveal first so the bow charging is visible. 

It won't hit for 9k most of the times. You need Spear of Justice tethered to the target for that. If you have the spear you have a tell. Otherwise it will hit for 7k at most - if the target is at max range and the DH has resolution on. 

Both Deadeye and any Longbow Ranger can deal more than that from range with much better consistency, and they both have stealth.