Why are there so many requests for a staff nerf and another support espec? Have we just given up on t4/CM fractals?

[Daniel Handler.4816]

There are probably ways to rebalance staff so it works well in fractals but isn't so strong on fast attacking bosses. And there is probably some sort of bard/minstrel/siren/clown that can do support, and put out aoe damage that isn't reliant on phantasms. But it feels like those ideas are rarely discussed.

 

Do people just not care about fractals anymore? Like when StM and power chrono got nerfed in PvE because of raids it affected fractals as well (where they were already struggling vs firebrand and dragonhunter). And when people get their way and nerf staff mirage, it's going to widen the gap between mirage and renegade even more. Then if we get a support espec in EoD it's probably not going to have quickness/alacrity or enough damage, to be desirable in challenge modes. 

 

I get that people want to play axe in raids, and want some flavourful singer. I don't want to reroll to guardian or revenant to participate in end game content. Is there some sort of compromise?

Edited June 2, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Jijimuge.4675]

I know this will go down like a lead ballon with some people, but I think this indicates that condi quickness firebrand,  alacrigade (and also perhaps condi scourge now?) need to be toned down a bit in PvE.  Being able to provide a large amount of support along with a high-ish dps isn't restricted to staff mirages.  If some new e-specs have to reach that bar, that'll result in some additional power creep.

 

I agree that Anet should take into account fractals (and even open world PvE) as the population in those modes is probably higher than the raiding population.

 

IMO there certainly are ways to balance staff so that it doesn't overperform when having 3 clones up vs fast attacking bosses, but is better vs weaker mobs.  I think Anet need to address this, but the best outcome would be if all weapons have some kind of a role....time will tell, I guess.

 

As regards the ideas about an upcoming e-spec, it's probably already set in stone, even though we don't know what it is yet - simply from the programming and design perspectives.  So, IMO, it's a little late in the day to put forward ideas for new e-specs in EoD, but may be worthwhile if Anet release a 4th expansion....though that is, of course, uncertain.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Jijimuge.4675
Spaces between paras

[Infusion.7149]

Staff mirage isn't all that great in fractals unless you are in Sunqua Peak or Mai trin (if others can deal with adds, still has phasing).

Most other fractals have "trash mobs". This means your clones can bug out and also you want high cleave.

• Aquatic - cannot even use it
• Aetherblade - trash mobs
• Chaos - trash mobs but might be okay on end boss
• Cliffside - trash mobs
• Deepstone - trash mobs
• Molten Boss - trash mobs
• Molten Furnace - trash mobs
• Nightmare - phasing
• Shattered Observatory - phasing + trash mobs
• Siren's Reef - many adds
• Snowblind - phasing
• Solid Ocean - reflects
• Swampland - many trash mobs + phasing
• Thaumanova Reactor - many trash mobs
• Twilight Oasis - phasing + trash mobs
• Uncategorized - probably not high attack rate enough
• Underground facility - trash mobs + adds
• Urban battleground - many trash mobs unless you skip
• Volcanic - trash mobs
   

3 clones up isn't the issue by the way, neither is the ambush. It's only the confusion output.

Edited June 2, 2021 by Infusion.7149
bullets

[HappyHubris.1096]

I'm still getting T4 groups easily as StM Chrono.  Haven't advanced to CMs yet but plan to do so soon.

The DPS required to clear T4s is so far below the theoretical maximum that these nerfs don't really affect viability.

[Daniel Handler.4816]

4 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Staff mirage isn't all that great in fractals unless you are in Sunqua Peak or Mai trin (if others can deal with adds, still has phasing).

Most other fractals have "trash mobs". This means your clones can bug out and also you want high cleave.

• Aquatic - cannot even use it
• Aetherblade - trash mobs
• Chaos - trash mobs but might be okay on end boss
• Cliffside - trash mobs
• Deepstone - trash mobs
• Molten Boss - trash mobs
• Molten Furnace - trash mobs
• Nightmare - phasing
• Shattered Observatory - phasing + trash mobs
• Siren's Reef - many adds
• Snowblind - phasing
• Solid Ocean - reflects
• Swampland - many trash mobs + phasing
• Thaumanova Reactor - many trash mobs
• Twilight Oasis - phasing + trash mobs
• Uncategorized - probably not high attack rate enough
• Underground facility - trash mobs + adds
• Urban battleground - many trash mobs unless you skip
• Volcanic - trash mobs
   

3 clones up isn't the issue by the way, neither is the ambush. It's only the confusion output.

Oh its not all that great. It is still better than the alternatives and doesn't need to be made worse. 

 

And our difficulty with trash mobs is part of the reason why I think people calling for a support spec must not care about fractals. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Daniel Handler.4816]

4 hours ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

I'm still getting T4 groups easily as StM Chrono.  Haven't advanced to CMs yet but plan to do so soon.

The DPS required to clear T4s is so far below the theoretical maximum that these nerfs don't really affect viability.

 

I would say chrono is non viable in CMs, especially if you have any sort of lag or ping issues. It's undesirable in t4. You can be aloof when the lfg asks for alac, that could be mutiple professions. Hfb/quickbrand does not mean they want you to bring your Chrono. 

 

And dps required to clear can be said of raids. Axe mirage is completely viable. But people want to clear content as fast as possible. The difference is suboptimal in raids isn't a waste of food and pots. 

Edited June 2, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Alquinon.2957]

I mean this is mesmer's weakness just because of its core class mechanic, mesmers have always been kinda bad at dealing with trash mobs unless you can reflect their attacks. So unless they make an elite spec that's the mesmer equivalent of soulbeast (take away your clones for more dps), this won't change.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

The best advice I can give on this fiasco is to play whatever you want until it’s no longer fun. What’s flavor of the month and powerful today will be rote tomorrow. Do what’s right for you. And don’t take what people spout as fact when it’s opinion.

 

As someone else said elsewhere, “ArenaNet will do what ArenaNet wants despite what we say here. Not because.”

 

This debate won’t matter in the years that follow. Again, it’s a game. Don’t think too much about it. Just play and have fun while it lasts. 😉

[HappyHubris.1096]

13 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

 

I would say chrono is non viable in CMs, especially if you have any sort of lag or ping issues. It's undesirable in t4. You can be aloof when the lfg asks for alac, that could be mutiple professions. Hfb/quickbrand does not mean they want you to bring your Chrono. 

 

And dps required to clear can be said of raids. Axe mirage is completely viable. But people want to clear content as fast as possible. The difference is suboptimal in raids isn't a waste of food and pots. 

I'll test CMs soon, but "undesirable" in T4 hasn't stopped me from getting groups every day and completing the daily rotation for T4s.  It turns out class is less important than being a person that shows up, puts in effort, and doesn't stand in the fire (most of the time). And if this somehow doesn't work, I guess I'll try Weaver again.

 

People confuse "not the absolutely very best" with "you'll never get a group and NPCs will spit on you."

Edited June 3, 2021 by HappyHubris.1096

[Daniel Handler.4816]

2 hours ago, HappyHubris.1096 said:

I'll test CMs soon, but "undesirable" in T4 hasn't stopped me from getting groups every day and completing the daily rotation for T4s.  It turns out class is less important than being a person that shows up, puts in effort, and doesn't stand in the fire (most of the time). And if this somehow doesn't work, I guess I'll try Weaver again.

 

People confuse "not the absolutely very best" with "you'll never get a group and NPCs will spit on you."

You can do t4 on 5 bunker builds. It just takes much longer. And again, raiders can complete raids with axe mirage and they aren't doing raids daily. Id prefer discussing compromises rather than telling people they can complete content but have a worse time.

 

Like tweak the confusion damage on staff but up the torment. Or a support build that somehow also damages. 

Edited June 3, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[Noodle Ant.1605]

staff mirage is like traditional condi dps (unlike contemporary ‘bursty’ condi dps) that needs time to ramp. youll find this sort of time in most unorganised pugs, where mirage performs far from mediocre - almost the same as it does on any non-TL/SH/etc raid boss

 

the ‘issue’ with mesmer and fracs is that its design doesnt allow it to be ‘meta’ unless it is inherently broken (but then the meta is always full of broken nonsense so idk); condi will never be ‘meta’ outside scale 100 due to its dmg graph (i.e. ramp) and most power mesmer builds struggle to compact a burst into breakbar, and they fail to use OWP effectively on top anyways because phantaspam

 

but mesmer (in fracs) is not weak and hasnt been for some time now. this is just because people confuse it with not being ‘meta’

if you want meta level play, then play whats in the meta

if the people youre playing with dont like what youre playing, then youre frankly playing with the wrong people

 

eventually things will change, metas will shift and mesmer might actually be weak one day. but staff changes can be completely reverted and imo mesmer will still be far from reaching that stage

[Daniel Handler.4816]

10 minutes ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

staff mirage is like traditional condi dps (unlike contemporary ‘bursty’ condi dps) that needs time to ramp. youll find this sort of time in most unorganised pugs, where mirage performs far from mediocre - almost the same as it does on any non-TL/SH/etc raid boss

 

the ‘issue’ with mesmer and fracs is that its design doesnt allow it to be ‘meta’ unless it is inherently broken (but then the meta is always full of broken nonsense so idk); condi will never be ‘meta’ outside scale 100 due to its dmg graph (i.e. ramp) and most power mesmer builds struggle to compact a burst into breakbar, and they fail to use OWP effectively on top anyways because phantaspam

 

but mesmer (in fracs) is not weak and hasnt been for some time now. this is just because people confuse it with not being ‘meta’

if you want meta level play, then play whats in the meta

if the people youre playing with dont like what youre playing, then youre frankly playing with the wrong people

 

eventually things will change, metas will shift and mesmer might actually be weak one day. but staff changes can be completely reverted and imo mesmer will still be far from reaching that stage

I wouldn't mind if they replace confusion with burning on staff. But anyway to your point, this is why the thought of a support espec in EoD is frustrating. I would rather we have an illusionless aoe burst, than another thing that spams illusions/boons or slow ramping conditions.

Edited June 3, 2021 by Daniel Handler.4816

[necromaniac.7629]

8 hours ago, Noodle Ant.1605 said:

staff mirage is like traditional condi dps (unlike contemporary ‘bursty’ condi dps) that needs time to ramp. youll find this sort of time in most unorganised pugs, where mirage performs far from mediocre - almost the same as it does on any non-TL/SH/etc raid boss

@ with the addition of confusion on staff i think it made it both ramp-up and bursty in a weird way i can't explain

the ‘issue’ with mesmer and fracs is that its design doesnt allow it to be ‘meta’ unless it is inherently broken (but then the meta is always full of broken nonsense so idk); condi will never be ‘meta’ outside scale 100 due to its dmg graph (i.e. ramp) and most power mesmer builds struggle to compact a burst into breakbar, and they fail to use OWP effectively on top anyways because phantaspam

@ I think this also applies to condi mes and the fact that confusion is useless on breakbars

 

but mesmer (in fracs) is not weak and hasnt been for some time now. this is just because people confuse it with not being ‘meta’

if you want meta level play, then play whats in the meta

if the people youre playing with dont like what youre playing, then youre frankly playing with the wrong people

@ exactly, people just obsessed and brainwashed by meta this meta that

 

eventually things will change, metas will shift and mesmer might actually be weak one day. but staff changes can be completely reverted and imo mesmer will still be far from reaching that stage

@ i would really like them to just revert staff to how it was, condi mes was perfectly niche prior (condi mirage and chrono) and now staff mirage just comes and do what both of them do way better

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by necromaniac.7629

[necromaniac.7629]

8 hours ago, Daniel Handler.4816 said:

I wouldn't mind if they replace confusion with burning on staff. But anyway to your point, this is why the thought of a support espec in EoD is frustrating. I would rather we have an illusionless aoe burst, than another thing that spams illusions/boons or slow ramping conditions.

all they need to do is just to revert to exactly how it was imo

[rabenpriester.7129]

I think it's requested by people who don't play Mesmer on a high level, or do not solo content and want just another support class to blast boons up their nose. People who "like the idea", but don't play the class.

 

Mesmer doesn't need another support class. It needs to be better at the existing options, that fb and renegade do better with the push of a single button both in WvW and PvE.

Mesmer needs a complete overhaul when it comes to its gameplay, how fluent and fun it is.

Mesmer needs a complete overhaul to its identity after it lost all of its uniqueness (portals, alac + quickness).

Mesmer needs a spec that plays just for itself, so it can solo PvE content better.

 

Mesmer needs to be fun again. Sadly, I get the feeling Anet doesn't understand their own class.

 

Also, the jump from t4 to CMs is huge in terms of player skill you'll find.

 

Edited June 4, 2021 by rabenpriester.7129

[Obtena.7952]

On 6/4/2021 at 9:32 AM, rabenpriester.7129 said:

I think it's requested by people who don't play Mesmer on a high level, or do not solo content and want just another support class to blast boons up their nose. People who "like the idea", but don't play the class.

Bad assumptions. It's requested by people that see how ridiculous it is to allow face roll specs that require NO understanding of the class to play in an MMO. 

[Lighter.5631]

nothing is hard in this game in pve, you can literally play anything and clear everything.

teapot cleared raid with full core class level78 team faster then most pug group.

 

before i would believe that meta is needed for pve, but no, meta is only for speed record.

 

also CM isnt hard, i havent played fractal for years, i started directly CM when i'm only 60ish fractal level gotten from way back. bought all AR from TP and cleared CM in first day with pug in LFG and got DwD  the next day also with LFG

and i got from 60 ish to 100 only playing CM.

Edited June 9, 2021 by Lighter.5631

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Lighter.5631 said:

nothing is hard in this game in pve, you can literally play anything and clear everything.

teapot cleared raid with full core class level78 team faster then most pug group.

Except he know what he was doing and was an expert in the class he was playing. What you are seeing here is ONLY done by people that are skilled enough in the class and knowledgeable enough about the encounter. So what you are saying here is not a universal truth ... there are significant requirements to 'literally playing anything and clearing everything'. 

 

This argument isn't about if Staff mirage is easy or hard ... because it was JUST as easy before May 11 to play as it is now. The argument is if it's healthy for the game to have a build that gives exceedingly good performance based on the minimal amount of knowledge needed to do it. 

Edited June 9, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

The counter-argument stinks of elitism. Poor players can play at the same level of talented players in PvE. And that’s unfair? I’ve never seen a game suffer because it was easier to play for everyone. But I have seen someone quit today because of these changes.

 

It’s nonsense to say these changes are for ‘the health of the game.’ The health of the game depends on players playing it. Everything else is circumstantial and window dressing.

 

Let's not pretend otherwise.

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

Player skills proportional to reward exists in all games. It's the principle of balance.

 

Game should be easy enough for all to play, but if easier spec is more efficient (key word being efficient) than harder-to-play specs while netting the same result/dps you also lose out on players who find the game lacks learning curve/challenge.

 

I've also known people who quit because their piano style triple kit condi engi was nerfed years ago to same level as easier specs like staff DD. I've also known people who quit because they can no longer "play as you want" with the new necessity of holy trinity (druid/chronotank/toughness gate) in raid. There are extremes in both sides and you can't use people quit as an evidence.

 

You'll find poor handling of skill/reward system way more evident in competitive scenes. Most metabuilds and mAT classes revolved around self sustaining bruisers that allow rooms for error, because they net the same result, if not better, than high risk/"high" reward glasses.

[Alquinon.2957]

11 hours ago, Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

The counter-argument stinks of elitism. Poor players can play at the same level of talented players in PvE. And that’s unfair? I’ve never seen a game suffer because it was easier to play for everyone. But I have seen someone quit today because of these changes.

 

It’s nonsense to say these changes are for ‘the health of the game.’ The health of the game depends on players playing it. Everything else is circumstantial and window dressing.

 

Let's not pretend otherwise.

 

Giving the same build to "poor players" will not allow them to play at the same level of "talented players" in PvE. There are 4 or 5 people in my raid static who have geared up staff mirage, and the difference in performance is pretty big depending on skill level and familiarity with mirage. Good players are not concerned about "poor players" outperforming them lol.

 

The reason why this build is overpowered is because it provides 10 man alacrity (I got about 50% squad alacrity uptime today on SH by myself in full dps gear), might, and the dps is still amazing after 2 nerfs on confusion bosses. Sure you can play axe mirage, but axe mirage is a way more complicated rotation, you have to dash through the boss's hitbox instead of staying at a pretty safe range, and your axe 3 randomly teleports you. So now axe mirage might be able to edge this build out in some cases, but unless you're a top mirage player it's still close even after 2 consecutive nerfs.

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

17 hours ago, NICENIKESHOE.7128 said:

There are extremes in both sides and you can't use people quit as an evidence.

You can. Been on enough MMOs that died because of severe population decline. Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, Hellgate London, City of Heroes, Marvel Heroes, etc.

 

Through mishandling and other missteps, these MMOs died a painful death when the populations moved to greater pastures. And the kicker? Just like here, I watched specific person(s) advocate the ‘balancing’ of classes to the detriment of the game. Looking at you Warhammer Online and Marvel Heroes. We used words like exodus to describe what happened afterward. Yes, one person quit on the boards. We have no idea how many more did without a word.

 

While not true or an absolute for every MMOs, let’s not kid ourselves. ‘Balancing’ based on the whims of a vocal minority is poison to any MMO and its population.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Ardenwolfe.8590

[NICENIKESHOE.7128]

2 hours ago, Ardenwolfe.8590 said:

You can. Been on enough MMOs that died because of severe population decline. Warhammer Online, Age of Conan, Hellgate London, City of Heroes, Marvel Heroes, etc.

 

Through mishandling and other missteps, these MMOs died a painful death when the populations moved to greater pastures. And the kicker? Just like here, I watched specific person(s) advocate the ‘balancing’ of classes to the detriment of the game. Looking at you Warhammer Online and Marvel Heroes. We used words like exodus to describe what happened afterward. Yes, one person quit on the boards. We have no idea how many more did without a word.

 

While not true or an absolute for every MMOs, let’s not kid ourselves. ‘Balancing’ based on the whims of a vocal minority is poison to any MMO and its population.

A dangerous assumptions here and doesn't necessary apply to GW2.

 

We have no objective evidence to believe dev balance base on "vocal minority". No one advocate for mirage staff buff before it got alacrity, no one advocate for more ele nerf when ele still got nerf in this patch. In fact ANet's interaction on these forums are often kept to minimum with once/twice weekly reply to meme posts etc and only ever react serious to PR or roadmap.

 

People quit for any reason. From balance, new/old mechanic, bad story, other more interesting games, real life commitments or money/time investments. "I've known these MMO" is a moot arguments with no end as we know other MMOs that have bad balance yet still survives, quoting mass exodus on balance only is almost devaluing consumers intelligence and capacity to make decision. The only objective stat we have for GW2 is NCSoft financial report and in fact GW2 have been sitting rather stable despite all the nerfs and balancing, with spikes from expansions

 

http://imgur.com/a/w52OIuV

[Ardenwolfe.8590]

My apologies, but Guild Wars 2 is not the exception. And to think such is folly. There's nothing more to say.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Ardenwolfe.8590