Why nerf a spec that does not exist in PVE?

[Infusion.7149]

9 hours ago, AliamRationem.5172 said:

 

How is that relevant?  The problem is ANet's failure to provide this class a rewarding output while giving the same out like candy to every faceroll spec in existence!  Roul provided a little history on this and I think it's a great window into the frustration you're seeing from other ele players on this forum.

 

He's mentioned in the past how he'd like to play weaver as its his favorite class, but can't justify it when specs like cfb are so much stronger.  Better damage, better utility, easier to play, and far less reliant on support and other factors beyond the player's control.

It's relevant because if Roul truly believes Arenanet balanced based off his benchmark he should have included the complete picture instead of just slapping a large hitbox benchmark not relevant to most scenarios.

Also for all the whining in the forums, sword with bolt to the heart was benching 19K autoattacking in air attunement last year while using 2 attunements (i.e. not as high complexity as condi weaver). That's more than power chrono before vicious expression changed, greatsword soulbeast, grieving mixed firebrand, or power DH. The problem is support is overtuned as Roul mentioned in his reddit thread as well, not so much that the DPS is bad and more difficult.

If you actually go back to the time that staff was nerfed in PVE (both lava font + meteor shower) I was against that by the way.

----
For WvW :
It's more that med kit heal scaling wasn't hit in Feb 2020 competitive patch  and then on top of that quickness was unsplit in May 2021 patch.

Superspeed on gyros (not toolbelt skills which do nothing but superspeed) really should have been scaled back and the quickness on superspeed dropped significantly in WvW. Having skills do 3 things at once is not healthy for the game regardless of which mode it is (see Mantra of Solace for example).

There's no reason not to stack scrappers right now, since even if the enemy is running Warrior's Cunning on their spellbreakers your superspeed mobility and healing would overpower that.
 

10 minutes ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

 

I know for a fact that in WvW,  with the addition of stacking superspeed scrapper isn't going anywhere. In fact there is theorycrafting going on around damage scrapper builds using superspeed for a melee blob engage because flamethrower scrappers are absolutely broken in melee zerg engagements with their burst. The overall "nerf" to PoP does nothing for tempests because even then tempest cleanses aren't giving that 1 boon on cleanse every couple of seconds that PoP still gives and neither is tempest giving you stealth gyro/superspeed. 

Edited June 10, 2021 by Infusion.7149
add WvW part

[Puck.3697]

12 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

I don't like this argument because it doesn't answer to even half the issues.

 

Elem/weaver is not complex. Not in pve. This just false.

The full burst rotation + loop rotation + weaveself rotation + lesser elemental + precast conjured weapons +meteor shower in fractals and I forget half, are only here to compete with others benchmark.

But you don't need this. You can just run Fire /swap/ Air or earth, smash skills CD off, all the fight and easily do 90% of the "maximum" dps.  You just want to loop fresh-air bonus (for power/hybrid) the 10 stack of persisting flames and Elements of rage; that's all. It's really not hard, they even loop themself without looking at.

 

And actually, in practice, being more effective because you don't fail combo and timing.

I know classes where the timing and precise skills chains/buffs, interrupting autohit etc, are more essential if you don't want to lose half your dps. Like holo back in time with the 51-99% heat, or even reaper "the easiest class" with all the precision/ferocity bonus and cold shoulder, soul barbs. 

And there are  also way easier rotations with high DPS, don't get me wrong. But elem/weaver isn't the "hardest", far from it; you don't need it.

 

No. The reason no one play elementalist isn't the complexity. It's because it's useless.

-Benchmark isn't that high, and in practice there are a lof encounters and situations where actually everybody can do better; regardless the support/sustain.  Because of confusion, because of moving boss and melee/range, because of adds/trasmobs, reflect etc. So  if you want a pur DPS bot, you don't want elem.

But even if benchmark was higher ;

-Sustain/support is inexistant. You're too dependant to others, while you bring nothing to the table.  There are mathematically some attacks you're alone to  not survive without protection+barrier+resistance, etc.

While FB with one build can bring cc, fury, reflect, stab, resistance, water aoe, condi conversion/cleanse, toughness, aegis. And, with some tweaks in build, quickness, mights, etc. Same with DH, F3 shield is really strong for personnal but also group sustain, F2, vulnerability, perfect inscription...

While warriors bring banners, mights, fury ... SB, spirits, spotter, one wolf pack etc.

While Renegade brings with already huge DPS, alacrity, assassin's presence, lifesteal, resistance, boonstrip...

Scourge : barriers, boonstrip, condi conversion, some mights, rez machine ....

Chrono can play quickness, or quickness+alac, signet of inspiration ... you can stack chronos for danger time trait...

Even Thief at some point it can bring stealth, CC, the stolen object thing with all boons.

So you could do 65K dps against a golem with a shorter rotation; the average PUG or guild still won't looking for you, at least till they have a solid block able to support one or two DPS bots.

 

But if a weaver could bring good  and rares/uniques utilitieS (PLURAL) to all the  group without losing too much personal DPS (or getting nerfs every patchs) : quickness, stab, group buffs (like the persisting flames for example, arcane power stacks...), barriers, even Slow, vigor ... players will say you're worth the risk and your "hard rotation" won't be an issue.

 

 

 

Edit*Actual simplified rotation :

 

Fire-fire - air/fire - air/air - fire/air for Power.

Fire-fire - Earth/fire - earth/earth - fire/earth for condi.

And you smash all the skillbar like an idi*t,  even earth focus magnetic wave, updraft if you want, you don't care.

And sometimes, if you feel it, or you know skills will be on CD, you go to the third "dps" element for lava-skin, gale-strike.

 

It is long to write the full rotation with all skills, because weaver has  a lot of skills, but do you really think this is hard ? 🤔😥

 

Obviously if you want to try hard you need to know more about CD, you need to include water for twin-strike, natural frenzy, not waste weaveself seconds. You should want to try with Dagger/focus for more dps, and so know placement... But there are things you'll learn naturally with practice, not "unintuitives" things or mandatory to be a good weaver.

There are just some tips to know too, like swapping attunement while casting skills, use primordial stance with fire for burst, earth for dps, and that's all.

 

 

 

 

 

 

weaver is above the averages capability. I'm sorry but it's true. Go watch a pug raid stream. Everyone feeds everyone dies. I'm afraid the vast majority actually can't play the game. 

 

That's just factual. You put weaver into most people's hands they will feed. On repeat. You may not find the rotation hard personally. Difficulty is a personal thing and depends on what you find hard, but I'm afraid the vast majority do find weaver too hard. That's why so many complain about "how much they have to work for little pay off" because it's established to be hard 

 

People want ease of access, and there's far easier options. If you honestly beleive Weavers so easy it isn't a problem. Watch me enter a raid. I have 0 raid experience im brand new to the game. I will show you what happens when h throw a new player at a class like weaver in a raid. 

 

Spoiler. I will feed hard. I'm not gonna manage the fight it's likely going to be 3x more stressful. 

 

The actual idea of taking my weaver into a raid gives me anxiety lol I never can go through with the idea of trying I almost rerolled to escape this. 

 

Your forgetting factors such as most mechanics will one shot a elementalist if they mess up while every other class can take several hits and things such as this which make the class feel harder. 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

This isn't rotation issue, this isn't "complexity". No, it's just sh*tty sustain.

 

If Weaver, where you have no real skill order to learn except may be for engage but just attunement swap between 2 elements, is hard how do you handle FB when you need to swap to scepter without interrupting Axe AA, burn all torch#4 and use F1 #2 >#5 > #4 > mantra > #2 > #1 > mantra > #2 > #5 > #4 ?

Your head exploses !? Too much informations.

 

And why people complain about the "hard rotation" ? Because they have nothing to value otherwise ?

They are not "It's okai if it's not perfect, as long as you bring "BUFF" and this "BOON" " because DPS is the only thing weaver bring,  and so yes it's the only thing you need to focus ore you're worthless.

 

edit* Or they just read the very long written rotation, and because they're too lazy and they don't know weaver they figure it's "hard" without giving a try.

 

 

On the other hand, do you die fast ? Yes. Can you always do your dps ? No. I already said that

Edited June 11, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Jski.6180]

9 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

This isn't rotation issue, this isn't "complexity". No, it's just sh*tty sustain.

 

If Weaver, where you have no real skill order to learn except may be for engage but just attunement swap between 2 elements, is hard how do you handle FB when you need to swap to scepter without interrupting Axe AA, burn all torch#4 and use F1 #2 >#5 > #4 > mantra > #2 > #1 > mantra > #2 > #5 > #4 ?

Your head exploses !? Too much informations.

 

 

On the other hand, do you die fast ? Yes. Can you always do your dps ? No. I already said that

The thing is you dont die faster then core ele or tempest when pulling off a dps build but this nerf hit these as well as weaver. That the crazy thing about this update and realy the last 4 years of updates weaver dose more dmg and is also more tankly then core ele and tempest all 3 classes which do the same thing and fills the same "roll" with given gear and traits to each class.

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

Just look at

 

Noodle just camps Fire, smashs the skillbar for Burning and is top1 DPS everywhere in PUG ?  He's CORE ELE. He sometimes plays with SCEPTER.

Do you really think this is hard ? When you play with weaver, which is pur powercreep for condi, when you do a little more efforts with air and earth, you can do a really good job.

 

Obviously you need good support, good placement ; otherwise you die everytime in fractals, it's not the point. This isn't rotation issue. It never has been the issue.

 

Here a hybrid build that works really good now in fractals (because of shorts fights/phases and natural burst of weaver/burning, because of how defiance bar works now with condition)

Dagger can be a bit more safe as you can stay at 240~400 range, but less bursty and less handy.

If you play Flame Legion I suggest Sigil of Accuracy rahter than +5% damage, for better burst. May be some rampager/sinister for more precision.

Otherwise Runes of Bhaltazar rather than Flame legion is a "safe choice"; you earn 10% life +  Burning is >50% of total damage so actually you don't lose DPS to buff Condition Damage.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Puck.3697]

2 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

Just look at

 

Noodle just camps Fire, smashs the skillbar for Burning and is top1 DPS everywhere in PUG ?  He's CORE ELE. He sometimes plays with SCEPTER.

Do you really think this is hard ? When you play with weaver, which is pur powercreep for condi, when you do a little more efforts with air and earth, you can do a really good job.

 

Obviously you need good support, good placement ; otherwise you die everytime in fractals, it's not the point. This isn't rotation issue. It never has been the issue.

 

Here a hybrid build that works really good now in fractals (because of shorts fights/phases and natural burst of weaver/burning, because of how defiance bar works now with condition)

Dagger can be a bit more safe as you can stay at 240~400 range, but less bursty and less handy.

If you play Flame Legion I suggest Sigil of Accuracy rahter than +5% damage, for better burst. May be some rampager/sinister for more precision.

Otherwise Runes of Bhaltazar rather than Flame legion is a "safe choice"; you earn 10% life +  Burning is >50% of total damage so actually you don't lose DPS to buff Condition Damage.

. 

 

2021 gamers want builds that do 30k DPS auto attacking and using 2 utilities like boon herald, they don't wanna remember a 30 button rotation loop and actually learn boss fights. 

 

If it isn't OP it can't sit in AoE DMG for free and it isn't a 111111111 spam build. Players think it's too complex. That's the way gaming is today and I'm afraid this is the context your missing. 

 

We aren't saying elementalist is too hard to exist. 

 

We are saying elementalist is too hard for the majority of the games playerbase. 

 

These don't mean the same thing. 

 

Comparing a guy who is very good at his class to a bunch of random players who grey parse isn't a feat nor proof. 

 

I'm sorry. But any build can out DPS the majority of pug players. Because the vast majority of the playerbase can't play the game to begin with. Your not seeing our context with this statement. 

 

It doesn't matter how easy a class is if u hand it to a player who can't find the number 4 on his keyboard. 

 

And that's what most of gw2 playerbase consist of. 

 

Other classes are easier to play. 

They do the same if not more DPS. 

Elementalist is squisher 

Elementalist have less health. 

Mechanics 1 shot elementalists. 

 

These are all things players CBA with and don't want to deal with. 

 

"This is complex"

"This is too complex for the average player"

 

Don't mean the same thing. We are providing a comparison not a definitive answer.

 

And if we are gonna talk difficulty please use its highest DPS builds no one cares about playing sub par for lower results to make things easier if we did we would just all stick to DPS tempest. 

 

Condi weaver is the top performing DPS build. Which even is considered a hard rotation by the pros.. 

 

You linking some sceptar build which is even worse DPS aint any proof. Any class can be made easier by using bodged builds. 

 

Understanding how to maximise weave self is above the skill level of most players.. keeping track of several bars CDs is too difficult for most players. And counting auto attacks is too difficult for most players. 

 

Elementalists squishyness is also too hard to deal with. 

 

Remove it's survivability problems and maybe itd be seen as easier. 

 

In the post he said.

 

It's a non-recommendable build. It's a meme

He's playing with notably bad players in the pugs. 

 

You ignored both these points and post it. 

 

And survivability is complexity also. U can't discount this. When your summing up why players choose class A instead of B you have to look at all differences not just some

 

The fact you by default have to be better at the game and able to play mechanics correctly increases the skill cap because it's another thing people struggle with.  Its all included in its skillcap. 

 

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Hi no Ishi.4378]

what is everyone talking about lol ? to hard for the playerbase?  what about the people who like weaver playstyle?  

[Puck.3697]

8 minutes ago, meghdragonheart.8156 said:

what is everyone talking about lol ? to hard for the playerbase?  what about the people who like weaver playstyle?  

 

Basically. 

 

The answer was directly to the question asked why nerf elementalist. And we are saying a reason could be to cater to the playerbase majority. 

 

Why make a unpopular choice meta instead of a easy to play overpopulated one and please the majority. 

 

This is in no way saying the nerfs fine deserved or the situation is ok we are all here because we are annoyed at this. 

 

What the orginal guy was saying is. After 8 years he recommends people give up trying to fight against the nerfs because they will never respond. Never fix or revert the class.

 

There's a reason why they nerf things like weaver. 

 

And make new playstyles like auto attack alacrity mirage for mesmer. 

 

Alacrity mirage sells, weaver doesn't basically. 

 

Give weaver a alacrity build that just afk farms earth form for maximum DPS and watch how popular weaver would get tho. 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

I don't ignore these points. You're the one trying to make them relevants.

It's a meme build, not recommanded. Do you know why ? Or you want to highlight this point without looking the reasons ?  Because weaver is better. (I did not ignore this point).  Still he is doing great with core ele with simple "rotation" ( while you're scared to play weaver because of written rotation under golem benchmark). How does that make simplified rotation irrelevant ?

And, because in fractals, in 5 man group, you better want classes that can carry people, grant buffs/boons and don't die.  (I did not ignore this point). But I never said the opposite. 

 

And there are "bad players". Hmm okai. And so what ?

How does that make simplified rotation irrelevant ?

 

Plus seriously ... "Weaver is hard, because GW2 is too hard for people"

No. It doesn"t work like that. You compare class to class, or build to build. You can't prioritize classes with all of them in the same level of an artificially raised scale because of lazy players somewhere in game.

Weaver is not hard, weaver is useless.

 

 

Stop trying to get me wrong. You're the one thinking weaver's ROTATION is too hard for people but you don't want to even give a try yourself.

You're the one earning opinions because of streamers, of "pros", and not the game itself.  You can't even quote them correctly.

STOP LOOKING FOR  STREAMERS. And play the game by yourself.

I don't need to look at stream to see players with me in raids, fractals, or strikes/drm; to test builds myself ! You don't need either.

You may even notice Reaper's ROTATION could be  a bit more tricky, with precise skills order and timing for average DPS than weaver's rotation, for average DPS.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Zhaid Zhem.6508

[Puck.3697]

6 hours ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

I don't ignore these points. You're the one trying to make them relevants.

It's a meme build, not recommanded. Do you know why ? Or you want to highlight this point without looking the reasons ?  Because weaver is better. (I did not ignore this point).  Still he is doing great with core ele with simple "rotation" ( while you're scared to play weaver because of written rotation under golem benchmark). How does that make simplified rotation irrelevant ?

 

One Counter argument:

 

If People dont play Weaver cause its "useless"

 

Why was Necro still one of the most popular classes when considered "useless" back in Core Game? Theres a WHOLE SONG Dedicated to necros Being considered Useless in PvE Content.

 

Why is Warrior So popular even in PvP Where its Considered Useless currently?

 

Why is Revenant The Least popular Class in the game statistically even tho its One of the strongest classes in the game with how much it Offers.

 

If people base their class Choice on What is the "most useful". Why are these things here.. why does Statistically Mesmer is Less popular then Elementalist even tho in raid enviroments Mesmer is more popular?..

 

People are Playing Elementalist MORE then Mesmer, yet LESS Seen. now u can say "maybe magically more elementalist players Just dont do content". Or maybne u could say. Maybe their hard Locked In Lower content due to not being able to break the Skill floor tied to the proffession they've chosen.

 

if reaper is so tricky whjy could i do 27k DPS With Reaper with 2 tries

While with Condi weaver it took Me weeks to do 27/28k DPS on a golem..

 

Longer rotations = a larger Memory effectively if u cant Read Something and hold the Memory and Execute that rotation ur basically having to break down the rotation til u build each segment into Muscle Memory.

 

 

Edited June 11, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[Zhaid Zhem.6508]

14 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

People want to feel good about themselves.. and telling them to sacrifice DPS to play easier builds doesnt award that.. theres lots of builds out there that do tons of Damage and are Easier to play, why put urself in a hole of playing Lower DPS to get to the same difficulty as Another class Provides at the highest of its DPS?

 

saying to play a Easier build of a class kinda proves the point anyway.. because if Weaver was So easy to play and so rewarding and its just a "get in there and go for it" u wouldnt need to play a Easier build.. u'd just tell em to go play condi weaver u dont see People saying "dont play DH play this easier build".

 

 

No one said that. No one asks players to play weaver because it's easy, or that is the easiest class ever.

But you're telling to players that Weaver is bad, because weaver is hard to learn. That's a lie. 

 

 

 

People want to feel good about themself, and try weaver, and you're telling them GW2 is a very hard game  and weaver is too hard for them.

You're scaring people to play weaver for bad reason, or worst you're telling it to A.Net that may buff Shattersone again and again, rather than pointing the real reasons why weaver/elem sucks in PVE HL.

 

We have to stop repeating this, stop complaining about this. Because it's fake. Because that's how we have random buffs and nerfs arround benchmarks rather than a new regard to the class and its contribution to the group, to the meta.

Weaver is bad because it brings nothing to the table while asking for great cover.

 

 

 

45 minutes ago, Daddy.8125 said:

Use wrong Element = Be punished for 2 Attunement CDs effectively.

Not knowing ur CD timers = Putting urself into Elements too early for ur rotation.

Not using Self Weave properly = Drop a Ton of DPS and Completely fumble a core part of playing the proffession.

 

You're scaring people, telling weaver is hard because they may hold F2 rather than F3 ? That's a joke ? And you know this is also a terrible issue for almost all classes ?

Plus, you still have offhand weapon skills with the right element available to hold on, plus after the 2sec you can do a full AA chain to hold on again.

Plus, Fresh Air cancel  this "mistake".

 

We don't really care about CD.

It's "important" for sword dual skills Twin strike, frenzy thing,... with Water or the "third" element Earth/Air, but once again, when you start with weaver, you don't need these elements; and you don't swap to these elements every 2sec either

Plus all dual strikes CD are all arround 10-12 sec, less with alacrity. So there is no issue with sword to swap too early, unless you fail on purpose.

Plus on Dagger you really, REALLY, don't care about water and air, you never use them outside weaveself.

Plus fresh-air cancels this mistake.

 

Weaveself ... yeah yeah ...

If you're scared about losing some seconds of weaveself > use Glyph of Elementals.

 

[Caitir.6947]

Why does this keep repeatedly boiling down to a guy randomly insulting the average playerbase and that somehow being the basis of Elementalist nerfs? I've seen when other games try to appeal to casual players that aren't skilled and it doesn't typically result in the hardest classes having completely lackluster reward for putting time into them. Usually the most difficult classes are deemed such because they have the most things to juggle, which often includes utility that you have to have the sense when to properly use to maximize that. For Weaver the biggest problem arises from their survivability and complete LACK of utility when doing damage. I'd call them complex, but not justifiably so at this point.

They don't bring anything to the party except damage, but other classes can do that and more. Which isn't a problem if all your bases are covered, but until then Weavers are not a class anyone thinks about because they bring nothing but that damage despite that complexity. They aren't packing utility that has to be carefully used, they aren't particularly survivable, their damage isn't even notably amazing (except condi) despite their rotation that IS markedly more complex than most other classes. 

People aren't looking for braindead-easy 1 spam for DPS or whatever. If they were, they'd play condi shortbow soulbeast and spam all their buttons off cooldown with the only thought being to alternate the 5 and F3, but once that's been done once you don't even think about that, and it easily does 30k+ benchmark with a fairly fast ramp, meaning it can even successfully be brought to fractals. But that's not what everyone is playing, is it? Not everyone is playing Scourge, either. There's plenty of people willing to put in time for Weaver, but their complexity only grants them damage and no utility whatsoever, whereas the Firebrand and Scourge over there are not only simpler, which is not but not a selling point alone (see: Condi Shortbow Soulbeast), but also has far more utility to the party. 

That's my biggest problem with Weaver. They're complex, but their complexity doesn't result in anything but damage, which other classes already do plenty fine while also bringing more utility to the table.

[Puck.3697]

1 minute ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

No one said that. No one asks players to play weaver because it's easy, or that is the easiest class ever.

But you're telling to players that Weaver is bad, because weaver is hard to learn. That's a lie. 

 

Actually i didnt lol. I said Weavers Unpopular because its Hard to learn. .MASSIVE DIFFERENCE. Im aware and agreed several times The Reason Weaver is bad is Down to a Lack of Utility while Doing the same DPS As proffessions which add utility and More, litterally in my Post 2 posts ago i said this.

 

Classes have Much more access to Utility while providing the same DPS.

 

Its Not "Bad" Because its hard to learn that makes 0 Sense. Im talking Popularity of the class Itself

 

What i said Was

 

"Anet are more likely to cater the game Towards More popular classes, because it Appeases a Wider audience by buffing Guardian then it does Weaver". this was my orginal statement. I added to that, that i think a Contributing factor is The Difficulty to play Weaver effectively to ultimatelly do no more DPS even in some cases Less DPS then a Easier choice.

 

 

 

[Puck.3697]

9 minutes ago, Caitir.6947 said:

Why does this keep repeatedly boiling down to a guy randomly insulting the average playerbase and that somehow being the basis of Elementalist nerfs? I've seen when other games try to appeal to casual players that aren't skilled and it doesn't typically result in the hardest classes having completely lackluster reward for putting time into them. Usually the most difficult classes are deemed such because they have the most things to juggle, which often includes utility that you have to have the sense when to properly use to maximize that. For Weaver the biggest problem arises from their survivability and complete LACK of utility when doing damage. I'd call them complex, but not justifiably so at this point.

 

because my point got Pulled apart likely down to my own Bad Wording

 

Im saying as i said above

 

I think Anet are more likely to buff classes and Make classes Meta that are more popular because it Appeases a larger part of the community.. i think a contributing factor to Why elementalist is Lower Popularity then other choices is because it Does Less. it works harder for Lower Results effectively.

 

and Saying Somethings too complex for a the average player isnt "insulting a player". Its obvious why different skill levels are tied.. and i also said its NO reason for the way anet treat the class. and it isnt thats just factual its Not a excuse.. i simply stated a Contributing factor to why anet have this Bias.

 

The issue here is.

 

In This game. these proffessions have access to Utility by doing Easier Rotations.

 

Example:

 

Alacrity Mirage.. it does alacrity while was doing 50k DPS with 3 buttons.. LITTERALLY its EASIER to play, if the Utility had to be juggled SEPERATELY To ur rotation. for example

 

if u have to execute a Rotation while executing utility Skill combinations to uphold the Utility Simultaniously, i'd consider that a Skill cap Increase.. but when u half a Rotation  and take the Easier rotation and launch a ton of utility into by naturally doing a Easy rotation all compiled into the same 3 buttons.. no it doesnt increase the skill cap.

 

for example

 

if

 

Class As Rotation is 1 4 3 1 4 5 5 7 1 3 for Damage only

and class Bs Rotation is 1 4 3 1 4 5 5 7 1 3 for Damage and utility

 

those rotations are identical Difficulty. There sno skill increase. thats Just one class being Superior entirely im afraid..

 

Alacrity Mirage is Easier to play, Just because its Easy rotation bolts on 5 Effects for every button where Weavers abilities only have like 1, doesnt mean its harder to play. it means Alacrity mirage is Superior as a whole.

 

and when u offer a Easier Class Which does More Damage, Does More utility, FGets into groups Easier. And a Less Stressful experience with no survivability issues. Amazingly players Jump on it lol, because they will Dive onto the easier choice.

 

its called Quality of Life theres even a Post in this Sub forumsaying it perfectly

 

With a "easy way to do 30k DPS As a Ele" and

 

upholds a herald doing 30k DPS With auto attack and 2 utility skills with a "Reroll Rev lol" written above it lol. we play a game. After 40 hour jobs, Amazingly people just wanna have fun. not have to work harder the nthe guy next to him to be Benched due to working harder for a Lower reward.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Daddy.8125

[TheDarkness.6947]

For me, I can say the decision to shelf the elementalist had little to do with complexity of operation.  It boiled down to this.

 

Ele has the lowest armor of any profession.

Ele has the lowest health of any profession.

It really has little in its trait lines to help mitigate that. 

 

In exchange for those rather glaring downsides, it has the following advantages that really stand out above other professions:

[Touchme.1097]

I play Condi Weaver and played all other Ele builds, problem with the first build is the inability to do high damage when the enemy keeps moving. Almost all your skills roots the Ele in place. The Dps is decent if you are playing it right but compared to the efforts to get there other professions would just perform better.

I don't think a gaming company needs to look at the benchmarks of a speedclear guild who doesn't even compete to be the top ranked worldwide, Anet has its own data gathering programs, most of the time is a miss because not even the best developer can foresee how players can min max the build of a profession to push higher than what it was meant to be, that's why big companies hire 1 or more people to play 1 profession to the best of its expectations.

You really have to play a certain profession to spot the flaws.

[Puck.3697]

35 minutes ago, TheDarkness.6947 said:

For me, I can say the decision to shelf the elementalist had little to do with complexity of operation.  It boiled down to this.

 

Ele has the lowest armor of any profession.

Ele has the lowest health of any profession.

It really has little in its trait lines to help mitigate that. 

 

In exchange for those rather glaring downsides, it has the following advantages that really stand out above other professions:

 

but that does fall into the catagory of Effort > Reward. which is a huge problem with These sorts of things existing. its Naturally demotivating for a Player to make Life harder on themselves to Simply play a Game, hence why the game has so many Guardians, Necromancers, Rangers and things

 

a good example of this would be looknig at a game like WoW because it made this transition.

 

If u look at Player engagement in Content in WoW In MoP. to Say Legion which simplified classes MASSIVELY, Legion had Far higher Engagement, because Players Will go as far as they do for Fun, but Alot of players wont turn the game into "work" to keep going higher. which is When players cut off. this is because Devs reliesed People were cutting Things out of their builds at a Loss of DPS FOr the sake of Enjoying it instead of min maxing it.

 

Elementalist feels like a Job comparitively. because it Has none of the Quality of Life other classes do. it naturally makes the game Less Convienant.

 

Elementalist have to deal with factors other classes Dont have to. and the other classes do more Damage and things while having better Quality of Life.

 

I can solo Open world content Now, in full DPS Gear.. i dont bother with any defences or anything.. is imply Use the evades and More to Avoid damage. but when i first went elementalist i went splat on repeat. did i feel good? Nah. i tried so many others chars, issue was I wanted to play Ele so i just persisted.

 

and now Open world content feels easy to me.. but that dont mean every players gonna have that same reaction.. and wont just drop the class as i almost did.

 

57 minutes ago, Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:

You're scaring people to play weaver for bad reason, or worst you're telling it to A.Net that may buff Shattersone again and again, rather than pointing the real reasons why weaver/elem sucks in PVE HL.

 

im not scarring anyone. go look up a new player guide, go look up a Class recommendation video, they all Echo "elementalist is super hard and new players shouldnt play it". Even if u go back years its still the statement made, im sorry but if people are coming into this thread and read through 8 pages of calling the proffession absolute trash useless and more they've prolly read one of those guides.

 

I aint personally Scaring people to play weavers. Where do u think my anxieties built? U Dont get Anxiety from something u dont get told or you see Orginally, Thats like building a phobia to clowns before u know Clowns exist. its because 3/4s of this forum is dedicated to saying weavers wortk 5x harder for Worse results, Because every weaver i see in groups through content creators Flop dead More then anyone else in the raid and Its because Everyone complains about Elementalist Difficulty. litterally. if they arent calling it too hard.. they're saying Ele Should be better because of its difficulty.

 

the entire advertisement of this game.. which seems to be sheerly build around content creation, Anet dont Tell u class Difficulty, or have a Rating system to tell u these things, Push Elementalist as a Very hard to play class... So if someones gonna get scared because of Difficulty they're long gone.

 

P.S

 

Weaver doesnt suck in PvE. this games built around doing 25-30k DPS While classes do 40k+, the Powercreep is so high in PvE that Nothings bad in it anymore, The only reason a player isnt clearing content. or isnt doing the DPS is because their ability to play the class.

 

U have people saying "Weaver Struggles to solo in trailblazer gear" while i solo everything Including expansion content with Pure DPS builds... i litterally use Snowcrows Raid builds for my Solo content. Thats not insulting players.. i went through Dying repeatively for a long while before i got there.. People jumping off that train early isnt "insulting". its Simply a Statement on the State of the proffession.

 

and i do practice the rotation.. i just beleive steps should be taken.

 

U dont just jump from World content to Raids and expect the group to carry you through ur failures til u can do it.. U learn every step, from building Muscle memory of its rotations and builds and build upwards.

 

I've gone from 14k DPS on golem to 28k DPS with no Gear improvements, im still in exotics. I am practicing.. by simply routinely Doing the rotation FOr so much time per day t obuild long term muscle memory.

 

What im saying boils down to simple

 

If Someone picks Elementalist... Struggles, Rerolls and plays a Different class and Walks through content easier, The player didnt fail. the game Did if a Class Feels worlds Apart... the game failed. it being Squishier. Punished harder, Dying faster.. is a Innate thing that makes content feel harder like more "work" higher "effort". if thats not replicated across all classes.. then that class Isnt appealing to players.

 

Core Elementalist Needs buffs. It needs its Strengths.

Tempest needs to get more competitive with todays Support builds.

Weaver Needs to do more Damage and a Utility / DPS hybrid Build.

 

Core Ele feels Abysmal, Tempest support Specialises in something that game doesnt need and "DPS" Will never be a favorable factor to Accessibility.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Daddy.8125