Revenant elite spec for end of dragons

[Heinel.6548]

On 8/21/2021 at 4:44 AM, draxynnic.3719 said:

Revenant is also, unfortunately, in a similar problem to engineer, except reversed. Engineer's lack of a core melee weapon means that any elite specialisation that's expected to be suitable for use in melee pretty much needs to have a melee weapon, unless the elite specialisation is intended to rely on toolkit or bomb kit for melee. Similarly, with hammer basically nerfed to death in every mode except WvW (since they refused to split until it had already been nerfed to death), any elite specialisation for revenant that isn't intended to be pretty much exclusively melee-oriented needs a ranged weapon.

 

This is something that could be fixed by giving revenant and engineer an additional core weapon each, but they seem to be allergic to doing so, thereby propagating the problem to every future elite specialisation.

 

Or they could, you know, fix hammer. I don't think we are asking for much. We just need a weapon that works consistently. no more.

[draxynnic.3719]

4 hours ago, Heinel.6548 said:

 

Or they could, you know, fix hammer. I don't think we are asking for much. We just need a weapon that works consistently. no more.

Fixing hammer would be good, but would still leave the revenant extremely sensitive to the balance state of hammer. Plus, unless it's fixed in a way that makes it a decent hybrid weapon, fixing it doesn't help condi builds, which currently only really have mace unless running an elite specialisation that brings a condi weapon.

 

Like only having a single underwater weapon until trident was added, it's one last holdover from revenant's original design as a no-weaponswap profession.

[Heinel.6548]

I mean, none of the weapons of revenant is hybrid and if you want some kind of condi/power parity, nothing short of reworking the entire weapon system of the class will work. That's just not gonna happen and really, there is no reason why every class must be able to do everything in every style at every range. As long as there is some answer to the content presented, I consider a class complete.

 

That said. if GS turn out to be the first hybrid weapon that's not a bad thing either. That also mean the new legend has to be hybrid too since revenant weapons are built for the legends. It would be a change of pace I suppose, but again, ultimately damage is damage. What the numbers look like don't matter as much as how the class feel to the hand.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Heinel.6548

[draxynnic.3719]

Shortbow is hybrid. I know people think of it as condi, but it actually outperforms hammer with power renegade.

 

OH axe is a bit of a hybrid with the high coefficient on Frigid Blitz, too, although obviously if you're running power you'll take OH sword first.

 

But that's the problem. Core condi builds, and by extension any elite specialisation that doesn't provide a condi weapon, just have mace and don't have anything to swap to apart from defensive sets that hit like a wet noodle without power stats. Sword used to have some hybrid potential when three chills from sword 2 could be proccing Abyssal Chill thrice, but that's gone now.

 

Which is fine if you're a no-weaponswap profession that doesn't need a second set for a build to swap to. Revenant's land weapon options are still a relic of that original design.

[Shao.7236]

Farfetched but very neat thing could not only be legend based effects on the next weapon skills but also it could change the weapons skills entirely a la elementalist depending on what legend is currently invoked, personally always been my pet peeve with Revenant given no weapon swap was the initial idea but then we had to get them because it was too underpowered.

 

Very demanding concept but it's not unfitting, however skills would be hard locked to legends which coming from now being used to what it is really sad.

 

Not to forget, what is gonna be the next F skill, gonna be unique at all times like Kalla? Or legend based? I'd prefer based as it adds the most substance.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Shao.7236

[Heinel.6548]

25 minutes ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Shortbow is hybrid. I know people think of it as condi, but it actually outperforms hammer with power renegade.

 

OH axe is a bit of a hybrid with the high coefficient on Frigid Blitz, too, although obviously if you're running power you'll take OH sword first.

 

But that's the problem. Core condi builds, and by extension any elite specialisation that doesn't provide a condi weapon, just have mace and don't have anything to swap to apart from defensive sets that hit like a wet noodle without power stats. Sword used to have some hybrid potential when three chills from sword 2 could be proccing Abyssal Chill thrice, but that's gone now.

 

Which is fine if you're a no-weaponswap profession that doesn't need a second set for a build to swap to. Revenant's land weapon options are still a relic of that original design.

I don't consider not having a swap to be a disadvantage, as revenant weapon skill still have lower than average cooldown. I think the original plan is for you to not have to swap at all for any playstyle, and only need to swap when you need a change of tactics. Dual swords still embodies this philosophy. And yes shortbow can be used either way but that's really an outlier considering you lose it as soon as you swap out of rene. If they swap the place of shortbow and hammer, we wouldn't be having this discussion. This means the problems lie with hammer, if it's fixed. all is well.

Edited August 22, 2021 by Heinel.6548

[draxynnic.3719]

22 minutes ago, Shao.7236 said:

Farfetched but very neat thing could not only be legend based effects on the next weapon skills but also it could change the weapons skills entirely a la elementalist depending on what legend is currently invoked, personally always been my pet peeve with Revenant given no weapon swap was the initial idea but then we had to get them because it was too underpowered.

From my memory, the actual problem wasn't that the weapons were underpowered per se, but that they were overspecialised. If you look at engineer and elementalist, their core weapons all had a degree of built-in versatility (they all had some degree of standoff capability while having skills that rewarded being closer to the enemy in one way or another), and even when that failed, they could use kits or conjures to fill in the gaps. Revenant didn't really have that - hammer when previewed was very clearly intended for extreme long-range combat (and popping hammers was really not a suitable substitute for swapping to a melee set), staff was exclusively melee, and I don't think we even got to test swords out until weaponswap was added. Meanwhile, revenant didn't have an equivalent to conjures or kits to close the gap either. Ironically, mace/axe was the one set at the time that actually worked, having a similar general feel to elementalist daggers.

 

Changing the weapon skills based on legend would have been an interesting approach. Would have made for a lot of work, though.

 

24 minutes ago, Heinel.6548 said:

I don't consider not having a swap to be a disadvantage, as revenant weapon skill still have lower than average cooldown. I think the original plan is for you to not have to swap at all for any playstyle, and only need to swap when you need a change of tactics. Dual swords still embodies this philosophy. And yes shortbow can be used either way but that's really an outlier considering you lose it as soon as you swap out of rene. If they swap the place of shortbow and hammer, we wouldn't be having this discussion. This means the problems lie with hammer, if it's fixed. all is well.

Swapping hammer and shortbow would certainly improve the situation, since shortbow works with both condition and power builds. Wouldn't solve it, though, since it still leaves ranged revenant very sensitive to the balance state of a single weapon. That's part of the problem - there's always going to be a bit of a balance churn, and when a profession only has one weapon that can do a particular job, it's very sensitive to the balance state of that weapon. Overnerf that weapon, and the profession just isn't competitive at that job any more.

 

The lack of a swap for condition weapons is a problem. It means that, short of condi stuff being outright overtuned, power builds are always going to have an advantage over condition builds. A core (or herald) power build will probably run sword/sword as the primary damage set, but can switch to staff for defence while still having decent damage since staff damage is power-based, or to hammer for a ranged weapon. Condi builds, however, typically run sword/X for defence and mobility or staff as defence, but in those cases they're getting little if any damage from them. Historically, condi heralds compensate for this by relying on legend skills to get conditions out while using these weapons, but it does mean that condi revenants really need to have something else that is overtuned to compensate for the lack of damage on a weaponswap (or having to run mace/axe and mace/shield and thereby giving up versatility).

 

And it's a problem that will continue repeating for every future elite specialisation. Consider that renegade, for instance, is often regarded as a condi specialisations, but that comes purely from having a hybrid weapon (shortbow) and mechanic skill (Citadel Bombardment). The Kalla legend itself rewards power much more (yes, Darkrazor exists, but that's basically all that can be said for it - it requires perfect conditions to actually be practical). Herald works because, basically, Glint usually works out to be better for condi builds than any of the other legends except Mallyx, and Herald brings enough durability to the table (including the option to go mace/shield, and thereby get some defensive skills without completely sacrificing damage) that you can often afford to facetank.

 

But if, say, greatsword comes as a melee cleave power weapon (the most cohesive argument in favour of greatsword over other weapons that I've seen), then odds are that the elite specialisation it comes with just won't be practical for condition builds. Any future elite specialisation, to be practical for condition builds at all, really needs to have a condition-suitable weapon, a legend that provides strong synergies with condis, or ideally a bit of both.

 

Conversely, if you look at most other professions, they aren't limited that way. Take mesmer, for instance. Only four autoattack-capable weapons as core, just like revenant... but instead of one being condi and the other three being straight power, mesmer has two power and... well, two hybrids, really. Which means that, for instance, ArenaNet can make a mesmer elite specialisation that brings a condition weapon and mostly oriented towards conditions, but as long as it still has traits that are suitable for power builds (not even a power traitline per se, just traits that aren't completely wasted with power builds), you can still make power work with it (hello mirage).

[Heinel.6548]

4 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

From my memory, the actual problem wasn't that the weapons were underpowered per se, but that they were overspecialised. If you look at engineer and elementalist, their core weapons all had a degree of built-in versatility (they all had some degree of standoff capability while having skills that rewarded being closer to the enemy in one way or another), and even when that failed, they could use kits or conjures to fill in the gaps. Revenant didn't really have that - hammer when previewed was very clearly intended for extreme long-range combat (and popping hammers was really not a suitable substitute for swapping to a melee set), staff was exclusively melee, and I don't think we even got to test swords out until weaponswap was added. Meanwhile, revenant didn't have an equivalent to conjures or kits to close the gap either. Ironically, mace/axe was the one set at the time that actually worked, having a similar general feel to elementalist daggers.

 

Changing the weapon skills based on legend would have been an interesting approach. Would have made for a lot of work, though.

 

Swapping hammer and shortbow would certainly improve the situation, since shortbow works with both condition and power builds. Wouldn't solve it, though, since it still leaves ranged revenant very sensitive to the balance state of a single weapon. That's part of the problem - there's always going to be a bit of a balance churn, and when a profession only has one weapon that can do a particular job, it's very sensitive to the balance state of that weapon. Overnerf that weapon, and the profession just isn't competitive at that job any more.

 

The lack of a swap for condition weapons is a problem. It means that, short of condi stuff being outright overtuned, power builds are always going to have an advantage over condition builds. A core (or herald) power build will probably run sword/sword as the primary damage set, but can switch to staff for defence while still having decent damage since staff damage is power-based, or to hammer for a ranged weapon. Condi builds, however, typically run sword/X for defence and mobility or staff as defence, but in those cases they're getting little if any damage from them. Historically, condi heralds compensate for this by relying on legend skills to get conditions out while using these weapons, but it does mean that condi revenants really need to have something else that is overtuned to compensate for the lack of damage on a weaponswap (or having to run mace/axe and mace/shield and thereby giving up versatility).

 

And it's a problem that will continue repeating for every future elite specialisation. Consider that renegade, for instance, is often regarded as a condi specialisations, but that comes purely from having a hybrid weapon (shortbow) and mechanic skill (Citadel Bombardment). The Kalla legend itself rewards power much more (yes, Darkrazor exists, but that's basically all that can be said for it - it requires perfect conditions to actually be practical). Herald works because, basically, Glint usually works out to be better for condi builds than any of the other legends except Mallyx, and Herald brings enough durability to the table (including the option to go mace/shield, and thereby get some defensive skills without completely sacrificing damage) that you can often afford to facetank.

 

But if, say, greatsword comes as a melee cleave power weapon (the most cohesive argument in favour of greatsword over other weapons that I've seen), then odds are that the elite specialisation it comes with just won't be practical for condition builds. Any future elite specialisation, to be practical for condition builds at all, really needs to have a condition-suitable weapon, a legend that provides strong synergies with condis, or ideally a bit of both.

 

Conversely, if you look at most other professions, they aren't limited that way. Take mesmer, for instance. Only four autoattack-capable weapons as core, just like revenant... but instead of one being condi and the other three being straight power, mesmer has two power and... well, two hybrids, really. Which means that, for instance, ArenaNet can make a mesmer elite specialisation that brings a condition weapon and mostly oriented towards conditions, but as long as it still has traits that are suitable for power builds (not even a power traitline per se, just traits that aren't completely wasted with power builds), you can still make power work with it (hello mirage).

 

Shortbow is a hybrid weapon because Kalla is a hybrid spec. A celestial spec even. But that's only limited to the elite specialization. The rest of revenant is still very singular in purpose. One could say this is potentially the class's identity. This does set it apart from pretty much everyone else save except maybe engineers.

 

Engineers, you'll note also have an extremely narrow array of weapons. They got two power elite spec in a row and their condi spec is... well let's just say they do have just the one. Their class mechanics supposedly make up for this deficit but they don't fight with 2 heal 6 utility 2 elites, plus class abilities.

 

In terms of having enough buttons to make things interesting, revenant isn't exactly lacking. You don't need many choices if the choices you do have are sufficient. While you see hammer as the unwanted step child that nobody asked for, you must also realize that doesn't have to be the case at all. You also fell into the fallacy of assuming that fewer choices automatically lead to a disadvantage, but if one weapon just simply become inadequate, having more inadequate choices won't make your position any better. You can't hope that ANet should just make a whole bunch of weapon and hope one works. This does nothing but introduce bloat. In this case, quality over quantity becomes the superior design choice, as it would also be easier to balance. How many weapons from classes that have access to many are truly viable? How often do you see dual sword warriors or hammer guardians? Scepter mesmers? Compare that to ele, while they have fewer choices, pretty much every choice see play in one place or another. They don't have a pick that is bad for all scenarios but you bet they have very bad choices for specific instances. This is the benefit of a tightly controlled, no filler (hah the irony) toolset that can stand up to close scrutiny.

 

Indeed, for the ele, every weapon is 4 weapons, and every single one of their weapons are hybrid capable, and not just hybrid as in condi/power, they can certainly do it, but then they can also go as far as hybrid as in celestial, with any and all weapon setup. If you like that playstyle, perhaps you should roll one.

 

I see in you the same thing that I see in those people in the guardian forum who thinks every single spec of the guardian must necessarily have a condi dps spec that is stronger than the last. Iunno maybe they come from WoW and that's how things work there, but this really won't fly in GW2 where people's general power level are kept level. And you know what, they also state X class have this, so naturally Y class should have it too. But is it? If X class has the stuff you want, why are you not playing class X? Maybe perhaps you'll then realize that each class identity is their own and may not necessarily fit you personally. Try to appreciate the class for what it is, instead of constantly jealous over what the other kid has, and you'll see that a lot of problems that you think are unsolvable, aren't really problems to begin with.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Heinel.6548

[draxynnic.3719]

16 minutes ago, Heinel.6548 said:

 

Shortbow is a hybrid weapon because Kalla is a hybrid spec. A celestial spec even. But that's only limited to the elite specialization. The rest of revenant is still very singular in purpose. One could say this is potentially the class's identity. This does set it apart from pretty much everyone else save except maybe engineers.

 

Engineers, you'll note also have an extremely narrow array of weapons. Their class mechanics supposedly make up for this deficit but they don't fight with 2 heal 6 utility 2 elites, plus class abilities.

Engineer is another profession that I've been saying needs another core weapon, so don't you try and tu quoque me.

16 minutes ago, Heinel.6548 said:

 

In terms of having enough buttons to make things interesting, revenant isn't exactly lacking. You don't need many choices if the choices you do have are sufficient. While you see hammer as the unwanted step child that nobody asked for, you must also realize that doesn't have to be the case at all. You also fell into the fallacy of assuming that fewer choices automatically lead to a disadvantage, but if one weapon just simply become inadequate, having more inadequate choices won't make your position any better. You can't hope that ANet should just make a whole bunch of weapon and hope one works. This does nothing but introduce bloat. In this case, quality over quantity becomes the superior design choice, as it would also be easier to balance. How many weapons from classes that have access to many are truly viable? How often do you see dual sword warriors or hammer guardians? Scepter mesmers? Compare that to ele, while they have fewer choices, pretty much every choice see play in one place or another. They don't have a pick that is bad for all scenarios but you bet they have very bad choices for specific instances. This is the benefit of a tightly controlled, no filler (hah the irony) toolset that can stand up to close scrutiny.

 

Indeed, for the ele, every weapon is 4 weapons, and every single one of their weapons are hybrid capable, and not just hybrid as in condi/power, but hybrid as in celestial. If you like that playstyle, perhaps you should roll one.

You're pretty much leaning straight into the worst-case scenario of ALL the weapons sucking, when the point I'm making is that having more options provides more opportunity to have at least one that doesn't. Consider guardian, for instance: staff sucked pretty badly for a while except purely as a buff stick when its range was reduced to 300. Was this crippling to the guardian as a whole? No, it wasn't... because guardian players could just use scepter instead until ArenaNet got around to fixing staff. Having two or more options that can fill a role means that the odds of all of them sucking at once are substantially reduced, and even in the worst case scenario where they do you can at least pick the least bad.

 

The examples you give... well, I'd contest a couple of them, but they really prove the point. Dual sword warrior? A bit of a sneaky example there, since the reason you don't see THAT particular combination come up often is that condition warrior basically means berserker at the moment, which means they'll be running sword/torch. A future condi-oriented warrior elite spec might reward dual sword better. Guardian hammer? Underrated, IMO, but it could literally be the worst thing in the game and guardian would be fine because it has other options to go to instead. Scepter mesmer, bad? Really? It's the preferred condition damage option for anything that isn't a mirage!

 

It also amuses me that you're bringing up elementalist, when they're the one profession which is unlucky enough to have both nerfed to heck. Staff got some harsh nerfs pretty recently, and Scepter is pretty much only used with fresh air builds, usually fresh air tempest. They still get used not because they're good, but because they're the only choices elementalists have if they want more than 600 range outside of utility skills. But until the staff nerfs a few months ago, they had staff to carry them with ranged builds that didn't rely on Fresh Air. Other than Fresh Air, it's all dagger or sword nowadays unless you just can't afford to get that close or you're running a healing build.

 

Buffing hammer might improve the problem now, but it wouldn't prevent revenant from ending up right back in the same situation if the nerfbat comes back down. Nor does it provide condition builds with a viable ranged option unless hammer is fundamentally altered in its character.

 

As for the "press more buttons" argument - the argument that a handicap doesn't matter because there is something else that compensates for it doesn't mean that it's not a handicap. Fundamentally, condition builds for revenant are always going to be at a handicap to power builds because power has three weapons that support power stats, while condi only has one (and none that are effective at medium or greater range), meaning that it's either taking mace in both sets or using a suboptimal weapon in one set unless the elite specialisation used provides a condi-suitable weapon. That's something which, if not addressed at some point, will need to be accounted for with every single revenant elite specialisation in the future unless the elite spec in question is intended to never use conditions.

[Heinel.6548]

1 hour ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Engineer is another profession that I've been saying needs another core weapon, so don't you try and tu quoque me.

You're pretty much leaning straight into the worst-case scenario of ALL the weapons sucking, when the point I'm making is that having more options provides more opportunity to have at least one that doesn't. Consider guardian, for instance: staff sucked pretty badly for a while except purely as a buff stick when its range was reduced to 300. Was this crippling to the guardian as a whole? No, it wasn't... because guardian players could just use scepter instead until ArenaNet got around to fixing staff. Having two or more options that can fill a role means that the odds of all of them sucking at once are substantially reduced, and even in the worst case scenario where they do you can at least pick the least bad.

 

The examples you give... well, I'd contest a couple of them, but they really prove the point. Dual sword warrior? A bit of a sneaky example there, since the reason you don't see THAT particular combination come up often is that condition warrior basically means berserker at the moment, which means they'll be running sword/torch. A future condi-oriented warrior elite spec might reward dual sword better. Guardian hammer? Underrated, IMO, but it could literally be the worst thing in the game and guardian would be fine because it has other options to go to instead. Scepter mesmer, bad? Really? It's the preferred condition damage option for anything that isn't a mirage!

 

It also amuses me that you're bringing up elementalist, when they're the one profession which is unlucky enough to have both nerfed to heck. Staff got some harsh nerfs pretty recently, and Scepter is pretty much only used with fresh air builds, usually fresh air tempest. They still get used not because they're good, but because they're the only choices elementalists have if they want more than 600 range outside of utility skills. But until the staff nerfs a few months ago, they had staff to carry them with ranged builds that didn't rely on Fresh Air. Other than Fresh Air, it's all dagger or sword nowadays unless you just can't afford to get that close or you're running a healing build.

 

Buffing hammer might improve the problem now, but it wouldn't prevent revenant from ending up right back in the same situation if the nerfbat comes back down. Nor does it provide condition builds with a viable ranged option unless hammer is fundamentally altered in its character.

 

As for the "press more buttons" argument - the argument that a handicap doesn't matter because there is something else that compensates for it doesn't mean that it's not a handicap. Fundamentally, condition builds for revenant are always going to be at a handicap to power builds because power has three weapons that support power stats, while condi only has one (and none that are effective at medium or greater range), meaning that it's either taking mace in both sets or using a suboptimal weapon in one set unless the elite specialisation used provides a condi-suitable weapon. That's something which, if not addressed at some point, will need to be accounted for with every single revenant elite specialisation in the future unless the elite spec in question is intended to never use conditions.

 

Eh, yeah. They are definitely going to nerf hammer if it ever becomes viable. That's definitely not the most pessimistic worse case scenario. /sarcasm.

 

Saying sceptor is a replacement for staff suggests to me that you have no idea what either weapon does on a guardian. Staff has since the beginning been a support, healing weapon, never damage. Sceptor has always been a dps weapon, never support. Saying you can just use one or the other until the bad one becomes good is like saying staff is a valid replacement for hammer for revenant until hammer gets good. Utter nonsense. You plain don't know what you're talking about. FYI neither staff nor sceptor are considered long range damage on guardian. Their only long range weapon is longbow on DH and torch. Yes, it's not even a complete build.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Heinel.6548

[Brunnsteinangel.2568]

The thing is, I am still mad that Anet gave Rev the weapon swap.

I'm even more mad, when I look the the underwater weapons.

 

Spear had a great desgin at release, with two different auto attacks, while Trident rewards you for choosing a legend.

Without weapon swap, Anet could lean heavily into those mechanics.

 

For example, a Sword/Sword build could get buffed in damage by shiro, while Jalis adds blocks or maybe protection.

Even the hammer could get "repaired".

And we wouldn't have the whole "power vs condi" thing.

Want to go condi? Take Malyx, adds extra condis.

So Hammer as a condi thing would be possible.

 

Yes, I know this doesn't add up, because we only have a single condi legend, butdoes it have to?

Either pick a condi elite spec (Malyx giving torment, Kalla bleed) or go hybrid.

IMO Rev is a hybrid class, only that it has to hide its "hybridness".

[Heinel.6548]

Rev is a hybrid in the sense that any load out gives you a diverse kit. Unlike other classes that can tailor their bar to 10 DPS only skills. Condi/Power really is besides the point. 

[RabbitUp.8294]

15 hours ago, draxynnic.3719 said:

Swapping hammer and shortbow would certainly improve the situation, since shortbow works with both condition and power builds. Wouldn't solve it, though, since it still leaves ranged revenant very sensitive to the balance state of a single weapon. That's part of the problem - there's always going to be a bit of a balance churn, and when a profession only has one weapon that can do a particular job, it's very sensitive to the balance state of that weapon. Overnerf that weapon, and the profession just isn't competitive at that job any more.

 

And it's a problem that will continue repeating for every future elite specialisation. Consider that renegade, for instance, is often regarded as a condi specialisations, but that comes purely from having a hybrid weapon (shortbow) and mechanic skill (Citadel Bombardment). The Kalla legend itself rewards power much more (yes, Darkrazor exists, but that's basically all that can be said for it - it requires perfect conditions to actually be practical). Herald works because, basically, Glint usually works out to be better for condi builds than any of the other legends except Mallyx, and Herald brings enough durability to the table (including the option to go mace/shield, and thereby get some defensive skills without completely sacrificing damage) that you can often afford to facetank.

 

I don't get either of those arguments. Most professions don't have ranged and melee weapons for both power and condi in their core set. And I'm not even talking about engi or ele. Guardian, mesmer, arguably necro. All of them lack at least one of those 4 weapons mentioned. Heck, guardian's only condi weapon is off-hand torch and F1 passive is not strong enough to glue everything together. Thief technically does, but their ranged weapons are all over the place. Only warrior and ranger are proper exceptions, and even then, warrior's rifle is a bigger meme than rev hammer.

 

The other thing is the focus on weapon swap. It's not the actual problem, when mace has such spammable skills and axe has great utility with a gapclose and cc. Legend swap on the other hand is a bigger issue when the profession is designed around forcing the swap to get energy back. That's where core rev's design problem lies, when each of the 4 legends has a difference focus, it's close to impossible to get a functional dps build. It works in pvp and wvw where utility is king, but in pve when dps builds need to maximise their damage output, espec have to fill the gap.

[RabbitUp.8294]

With all the talk about power and condi and hybrid, has anybody tried a grieving rev with tormenting runes? You have a slightly weaker zerker build that has the same torment damage as viper. Trait wise, it's the perfect opportunity now that both condi and power play devastation.

[draxynnic.3719]

9 hours ago, Heinel.6548 said:

 

Eh, yeah. They are definitely going to nerf hammer if it ever becomes viable. That's definitely not the most pessimistic worse case scenario. /sarcasm.

 

Saying sceptor is a replacement for staff suggests to me that you have no idea what either weapon does on a guardian. Staff has since the beginning been a support, healing weapon, never damage. Sceptor has always been a dps weapon, never support. Saying you can just use one or the other until the bad one becomes good is like saying staff is a valid replacement for hammer for revenant until hammer gets good. Utter nonsense. You plain don't know what you're talking about. FYI neither staff nor sceptor are considered long range damage on guardian. Their only long range weapon is longbow on DH and torch. Yes, it's not even a complete build.

Oh, hey, it's the 'you disagree with me so you obviously don't know what you're talking about' argument. Scepter gets used as a ranged option on guardian quite a bit, and at the time I'm referring to, I think it even had 1200 range. Meanwhile, for a long time I almost never saw DH longbow, until the recent nerf to the scepter trait.

 

Point was that it's an example of a case where a weapon being in a bad state didn't leave the profession as a whole in a bad state. I could just as easily talk about, oh, how dh longbow is close to abandoned in many modes. Doesn't hurt the profession as a whole since there's an alternative. Core revenant has no alternative. It's hammer or no range at all - and hammer sucks for condi builds.

 

As for saying I'm taking the worst case scenario: Balance is a churn. Something being buffed is no guarantee it won't get nerfed again later. Some abilities and weapons have been buffed up from irrelevancy to metahood and nerfed back to irrelevancy again. Redundancy reduces the chance of both being in that state at once.

 

33 minutes ago, RabbitUp.8294 said:

 

I don't get either of those arguments. Most professions don't have ranged and melee weapons for both power and condi in their core set. And I'm not even talking about engi or ele. Guardian, mesmer, arguably necro. All of them lack at least one of those 4 weapons mentioned. Heck, guardian's only condi weapon is off-hand torch and F1 passive is not strong enough to glue everything together. Thief technically does, but their ranged weapons are all over the place. Only warrior and ranger are proper exceptions, and even then, warrior's rifle is a bigger meme than rev hammer.

 

The other thing is the focus on weapon swap. It's not the actual problem, when mace has such spammable skills and axe has great utility with a gapclose and cc. Legend swap on the other hand is a bigger issue when the profession is designed around forcing the swap to get energy back. That's where core rev's design problem lies, when each of the 4 legends has a difference focus, it's close to impossible to get a functional dps build. It works in pvp and wvw where utility is king, but in pve when dps builds need to maximise their damage output, espec have to fill the gap.

Eh. Guardian's a bit weird in that it's not supposed to get condition damage out of weapon skills, but out of utilities and virtues. Which obviously works, since burn guards have been a presence in sPvP since the conditions rework pre-HoT.

 

Mesmer and necromancer both lack core melee condition weapons, sure. But they DO each have at least two weapons apiece that are suitable regardless of whether they're running power or condi. Mesmer I addressed in a previous post. Necromancer has dagger and axe for power, staff is essentially a hybrid, and scepter as condi.

 

Revenant only has one core condi-oriented set, and none of the others are even decent hybrids. It also only has one ranged weapon. A core ranged condi weapon would plug both.

 

Regarding legends - there is a degree of that. Shiro can be used for mobility and quickness, but it doesn't work as well with condi as the  old Impossible Odds.

[Klowdy.3126]

Speaking from the heart, I hope its GS with minions. Just sounds like fun. A logical direction would be a defensive GS. I would also like axe main hand, or mace off hand, maybe with spirit (mist) weapons. I really just dislike daggers and sceptres, so I have a feeling we'll get one of those.

[Chaos.7614]

20 minutes ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

Speaking from the heart, I hope its GS with minions.

Here you go https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper. Don't need a minion spec when we have Kalla already.

[Klowdy.3126]

30 minutes ago, Chaos.7614 said:

Here you go https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Reaper. Don't need a minion spec when we have Kalla already.

I'm talking something that follows you around, letting me put my brain on auto-pilot for a bit. You just don't see a lot of classes with minions, so I always kinda wanted that with the GS. GS is really all i want, but I thought I'd add in the minion aspect so it could see a bit more use in-game.

[Scoobaniec.9561]

8 minutes ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

I'm talking something that follows you around, letting me put my brain on auto-pilot for a bit. You just don't see a lot of classes with minions, so I always kinda wanted that with the GS. GS is really all i want, but I thought I'd add in the minion aspect so it could see a bit more use in-game.

Literally reaper with minions..

[Klowdy.3126]

3 minutes ago, Scoobaniec.9561 said:

Literally reaper with minions..

I'm just stating my opinion for what I would like to see is all. I would also want different functionality from the minions. If the went defensive GS, you could sacrifice your minions for boon/conditions/defense. I wouldn't want a copy paste of reaper.

[Chaos.7614]

42 minutes ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

I'm just stating my opinion for what I would like to see is all. I would also want different functionality from the minions. If the went defensive GS, you could sacrifice your minions for boon/conditions/defense. I wouldn't want a copy paste of reaper.

That sounds extremely boring and nothing that current necro couldn't provide for you... Revenant needs a high-impact power damage spec with the gs and minions aren't the way to go with that.

[Klowdy.3126]

7 minutes ago, Chaos.7614 said:

That sounds extremely boring and nothing that current necro couldn't provide for you... Revenant needs a high-impact power damage spec with the gs and minions aren't the way to go with that.

That is your opinion. I was looking for some conversation to possibly flesh out ideas, but you just seem to want to prove me wrong. Guardian got LB and traps, and that turned out great. The same thing can function differently for different classes. 

[Chaos.7614]

12 minutes ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

That is your opinion. I was looking for some conversation to possibly flesh out ideas, but you just seem to want to prove me wrong. Guardian got LB and traps, and that turned out great. The same thing can function differently for different classes. 

If it's an opinion, you can't be proven wrong... My opinion is that your opinion brings little value to the class, and I'll give you two reasons why.

1 hour ago, Klowdy.3126 said:

I'm talking something that follows you around, letting me put my brain on auto-pilot for a bit. You just don't see a lot of classes with minions, so I always kinda wanted that with the GS. GS is really all i want, but I thought I'd add in the minion aspect so it could see a bit more use in-game.

1. We already have Kalla. The only difference is that her summons are stationary and you want mobile minions. Setting down a summon that doesn't follow you is just plain boring. At least with necro minions they're mobile and have secondary effects, but since we have a summon-based legend already there's no point in restricting rev to more boring AI utility skills. Just because you want to turn off your brain doesn't mean the rest of us do; you can easily do that with ren in open world.

2. Revs are limited in utilities based on the legends we pick. If we could change skills freely and have multiple utility types like other classes, I could simply ignore skills that come with an elite spec and just use the elite weapon/traits along with core legend utilities for my specific build. Instead with rev, if our next legend doesn't have engaging skills then we're going to just pick it for damage numbers and use the same core legends we've had for years. In PvE, neither of the rev specs are particularly engaging on their own skills since herald is a boonbot and ren is summon and forget / alacbot.

 

Rev has it's issues but the EoD spec can remedy that somewhat if it brings something new to the class. Herald was all about buffing allies; Renegade was about area control and condi damage; this spec needs power area damage and self buffs for damage. Utilities that promote that like an upkeep that improves power DPS, wells that deal continuous damage in an area, moderate mobility skills with damage, etc would all be much better than 5 more minion skills. It's the perfect pair to shiro who focuses on isolated single target damage.

[Klowdy.3126]

28 minutes ago, Chaos.7614 said:

If it's an opinion, you can't be proven wrong... My opinion is that your opinion brings little value to the class, and I'll give you two reasons why.

1. We already have Kalla. The only difference is that her summons are stationary and you want mobile minions. Setting down a summon that doesn't follow you is just plain boring. At least with necro minions they're mobile and have secondary effects, but since we have a summon-based legend already there's no point in restricting rev to more boring AI utility skills. Just because you want to turn off your brain doesn't mean the rest of us do; you can easily do that with ren in open world.

2. Revs are limited in utilities based on the legends we pick. If we could change skills freely and have multiple utility types like other classes, I could simply ignore skills that come with an elite spec and just use the elite weapon/traits along with core legend utilities for my specific build. Instead with rev, if our next legend doesn't have engaging skills then we're going to just pick it for damage numbers and use the same core legends we've had for years. In PvE, neither of the rev specs are particularly engaging on their own skills since herald is a boonbot and ren is summon and forget / alacbot.

 

Rev has it's issues but the EoD spec can remedy that somewhat if it brings something new to the class. Herald was all about buffing allies; Renegade was about area control and condi damage; this spec needs power area damage and self buffs for damage. Utilities that promote that like an upkeep that improves power DPS, wells that deal continuous damage in an area, moderate mobility skills with damage, etc would all be much better than 5 more minion skills. It's the perfect pair to shiro who focuses on isolated single target damage.

Ok, again, just something I like. I'll stop replying to this thread, so you can stop telling me my opinion is wrong. You said it yourself that kalla's wells are boring. I was just giving my 2 cents on the GS rev, but since yours is the only correct opinion, you win. I thought I would find someone that liked the idea, and got their own from reading that, and we people could improve the idea. No need to discuss this further with me, I see where the conversation is headed.

[draxynnic.3719]

Playing devil's advocate, I could see a way that MM Rev could work:

 

The trick would be that it wouldn't need to have minion skills at all. Instead, it could automatically summon the minion squad when you swap into the legend, and the utilities could be based around controlling the minions (like that PoF story instance) or something else more engaging than simply summoning a minion and maybe triggering a minion skill every so often.

 

Because revenant legend skills are a package, the minion summon could be 'baked in' without taking any actual slots at all, unlike other professions that have to dedicate slots to any summons they might have. Could even make it so that switching to the legend is the primary means of replenishing the minions, so it still encourages legend swapping.

 

I don't think that right after Kalla is the best time for such a concept, though.