It's a pretty good time to play Revenant

[lodjur.1284]

7 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

You are talking about group play in wvw, yea its true because i did not mention that i mostly mean soloing, because Herald has low amount of immo or whatever so the torment change is a nerf in solo playing. In group play its totally different as you already mentioned yea.

Nerf, but certainly not a massive nerf

 

Especially given that torment was only 50% or so of the damage before and mostly when one bursts one pairs it with axe 5 or CtA

7 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Its not a l2p issue at all. Tell me which condition remove skills Herald has. I mean mainly against ranged classes obviously. Of course the condition managing works against other melee classes. However here we go:

4 every swap from Invocation+Cleansing

 

3 from demon f2, even if it misses

 

What ranged condition builds are even good right now?

 

Against mesmer the swap one works cause of close

 

Against Druid new resistance is fine as it's just an immobilize bot

 

Condi Soulbeast can't kite you while doing any real damage

 

Burn guard basically lost it's range (and barely exists) and they're slower than you

 

Condi Thief is only semi ranged as steal forces then into melee as does p/d 3

 

Condi Renegade is mostly melee and if one loses 1v1 to renegade on herald it's def l2p

 

Necro is slower than you generally

7 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Corruption has a condition transfer with a low radius on legend swap, so basically useless against ranged classes.

See above

7 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Retribution has no condition remove.

 

But it got resolution

7 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Salvation has no condition remove.

True salvation probably should have

7 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Invocation removes 1 condition on legend swap.

That's very good actually

7 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Devastation has 1 immob remove on movement skills.
Herald can transfer 2 (3 with trait) conditions on true nature demon on a range of 600. transfer maybe useful and maybe useless against range classes, depending on how far they r atm. The cleanse even works without being close to an enemy.

Exactly

7 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

However the only condition removes you have are on legend swap and if you play condi herald. The condition removes on legend swap are not even big. So your are 10 seconds vulnerable after legend swap except on demon herald, there its min. 5 seconds.
Renegade has more cc options and its ranged so can manage conditions of melee classes better.

Renegade runs with the same amount of CC as Herald

Axe+Sb+Dwarf

Herald got

axe+staff+dragon 

 

Renegade is barely ranged

 

Also Herald runs either staff or shield so that's a few more clears. 

 

Also 3 sec of better invuln is pretty good against condi. 

7 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Condition managing was faaaar better before may 11 patch due to resistance.

Way too good even

 

You shouldn't be able to just ignore an entire damagetype

 

7 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Why glint heal needs a rework? Because damage turns into health for 3 seconds? Warrior has exactly the same skills but with 1 second more uptime.

Warrior one also needs a rework. But this is the Rev forum

 

Also revenant heals should be worse...

 

We got 2

 

Compare Jalis to Mending or Mallyx Heal to Consume Conditions

7 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

 

And demon true nature needs a lower radius? Really? You wanna fully kill condi Herald against range classes? The only thing you can go with then is cleansing sigil (i already use it) and thats not even part of the class so yea it has bad condition managing, at least against range classes. And even that triggers on legend swap so u will still be vulnerable for 10 seconds for conditions without mentioning true nature demon.

 

You're forgetting that resistance still helps a lot cause you don't need to clear all the various trash such as immob. 

 

Also Herald already doesn't make a whole lot of sense for condi

 

Its some kinda support power damage hybrid looking at the traitline that has 1 random condi skill for flavor and a super busted heal. 

 

None of the actual traits do anything.

 

In fact if you're not abusing the transfer leaving the traitline empty gives you more damage. 

 

This is kinda telling though and shows that people pick up the herald line just for the ultimate carry buttons. The instant full heal and 3 sec invuln and the instagib everyone near me button. 

 

Now the later carries some risk and herald is basically gone

7 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

But i agree with the part that herald has one of the better condition managing of revenant class, but in overall its still trash after may 11 update. And against range classes its always a hard fight. Against melee its easy tho.

It has the best of any Rev. 

 

I'd say it has some of the best condi (top 3) management of any non-antitoxin build disregarding really really memey stuff noone would ever play. 

[SeTect.5918]

2 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Nerf, but certainly not a massive nerf

 

Especially given that torment was only 50% or so of the damage before and mostly when one bursts one pairs it with axe 5 or CtA

4 every swap from Invocation+Cleansing

 

3 from demon f2, even if it misses

 

What ranged condition builds are even good right now?

 

Against mesmer the swap one works cause of close

 

Against Druid new resistance is fine as it's just an immobilize bot

 

Condi Soulbeast can't kite you while doing any real damage

 

Burn guard basically lost it's range (and barely exists) and they're slower than you

 

Condi Thief is only semi ranged as steal forces then into melee as does p/d 3

 

Condi Renegade is mostly melee and if one loses 1v1 to renegade on herald it's def l2p

 

Necro is slower than you generally

See above

But it got resolution

True salvation probably should have

That's very good actually

Exactly

Renegade runs with the same amount of CC as Herald

Axe+Sb+Dwarf

Herald got

axe+staff+dragon 

 

Renegade is barely ranged

 

Also Herald runs either staff or shield so that's a few more clears. 

 

Also 3 sec of better invuln is pretty good against condi. 

Way too good even

 

You shouldn't be able to just ignore an entire damagetype

 

Warrior one also needs a rework. But this is the Rev forum

 

Also revenant heals should be worse...

 

We got 2

 

Compare Jalis to Mending or Mallyx Heal to Consume Conditions

You're forgetting that resistance still helps a lot cause you don't need to clear all the various trash such as immob. 

 

Also Herald already doesn't make a whole lot of sense for condi

 

Its some kinda support power damage hybrid looking at the traitline that has 1 random condi skill for flavor and a super busted heal. 

 

None of the actual traits do anything.

 

In fact if you're not abusing the transfer leaving the traitline empty gives you more damage. 

 

This is kinda telling though and shows that people pick up the herald line just for the ultimate carry buttons. The instant full heal and 3 sec invuln and the instagib everyone near me button. 

 

Now the later carries some risk and herald is basically gone

It has the best of any Rev. 

 

I'd say it has some of the best condi (top 3) management of any non-antitoxin build disregarding really really memey stuff noone would ever play. 

Yo, not sure if it was only for me or for everyone else, but forum was down for 1 hours or sth, i wrote a giant text for like 1 hour and now everything is away so i wont follow this discussion anymore. Hope u can understand that.

[lodjur.1284]

17 minutes ago, SeTect.5918 said:

Yo, not sure if it was only for me or for everyone else, but forum was down for 1 hours or sth, i wrote a giant text for like 1 hour and now everything is away so i wont follow this discussion anymore. Hope u can understand that.

Ah, ye that sucks

[Sobx.1758]

tbh it's hard to think of a time that wasn't good to play rev  🙄 

 

 

e: the reaction emote doesn't prove me wrong 😁

 

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

21 hours ago, Dahkeus.8243 said:

Destructive impulse nerf doesn't matter.  It's the same nerf to power rene as it is to power herald since they both use offhand weapons.  Both benchmark vids were before this so it's completely irrelevant.

 

You're making some serious mountains out of mole hills.

 

Yes, number of boons will scale herald.  Benchmarks run with all boons.  Nothing new here.

 

Nit pick all you want, but regardless of the trees you're getting caught up on, the forest is still the same:  Herald does viable power damage that's just a bit off of Renegade, but brings additional boons/boon duration that renegade doesn't have.  It's not perfect for all groups, but it's a good build that does decent damage and there's no reason you can't play herald in any PvE content.

You’re currently showing your lack of understanding of how benchmarks work. Benchmarks DO NOT run with all boons. They run with the 7 most common boons that are practically guaranteed in any appropriately comped raid group.  A 5% damage increase from using All Boons instead of Realistic is significant 

Power herald vs power renegade is irrelevant since we’re discussing power herald’s performance compared to the overall metagame. All of my comments are geared towards that. Ren already has several much better builds than Herald so comparing to Renegade’s most niche build (power) is kind of irrelevant.  

 

And it’s not a nitpick. People in this thread are using outdated, bad information to try to prove their points and not doing their due diligence for their research. There’s a HUGE difference between 33k bench and 30k bench, especially on a power class with no burst. 

[ArthurDent.9538]

13 hours ago, Blood Red Arachnid.2493 said:

I hate to be "that guy" but I'm going to press "X" to doubt on the herald roamer build.  Actually, I'm going to press a whole bunch of keys.  I recently decided to take it into WvW, and holy hell is this thing nerfed into the ground.  I remember it being strong back when I last played it, but now playing my toon feels like she just had her appendix removed.  In a single night I have consistently lost the 1v1 against every profession... except warrior because I don't see those roaming anymore.

 

#1: They gutted Retribution (as well as most of the traits), which was my super secret weapon in build design.  Before it provided a mixture of offensive and defensive traits that were widely applicable and had multiple uses.  Now everything is so conditional and awkward.  For instance, they have a trait that gives 3 seconds of weakness on crowd control.  I call this awkward, because I don't need to feeble the attacks of an enemy who's currently a jade pillar and will remain one for the entire duration of weakness.  With poor weakness alternatives and limited CC access, the trait is basically "do 10% more damage after jade pillar."  I now know why everyone runs devastation.

 

#2:  The damage was gutted and is now oddly placed.  There's two good damage skills on the weapons now, Deathstrike and Frigid Blitz.  That's it.  They're mutually exclusive, too.  Nothing on staff does good damage, the Hammer is too slow and clunky to hit anybody.  Sword 2 and Sword 3 do less damage than the auto attack.  Sword 4 is mediocre damage, except the windup is so long that you'll be CC'd before ever firing it off.  Right now, all of the weapon skills are there to scare the opponent into blowing his defensive cooldowns before you get to the real DPS skills, which are consumed facets.

 

I'm not joking.  I can't find the exact numbers for it, but True Nature - Assassin hits about as hard as Shackling Wave.  Elemental Blast is the hardest hitting skill, and if it is for individual hits Burst of Strength follows right behind in third place.  I had to look up some guides to figure this out, but the DPS rotations are all "Stun the enemy, then BURN ALL THE FACETS YOU CAN!"  I can't use the upkeeps, either, because everything costs so much energy that I can't afford to use an upkeep and any of the need-to-survive utility skills at the same time.  One Riposting Shadows and I can't even use sword skills anymore.  BTW the wiki is wrong about impossible odds:  It costs 8 initiative in WvW.

 

#3: What they've done to the boons is outright criminal.  See, I just came from playing around with Sword Weaver, who can cap might and maintain permanent regen, swiftness, fury, and protection with almost no investment.  Before that I played Scrapper, who also gives itself tons of might, quickness, regeneration, fury, and also protection on demand.  Before that I played Power Mirage, and while short lived it did give itself plenty of might, fury, vigor, aegis, and regeneration.  So somebody tell me why it is that, on a specialization that was supposed to be focused around boons that everyone has boons BUT HERALD!?  Just look at the durations of these boons:

 

Unrelenting Assault: 3 seconds of might.  Pretty useless on a glorified evade skill that lasts 1.5 seconds and does less damage than an auto attack.  Seriously, it gives you just enough might to taunt you over how it won't last long enough to do another attack.

Chilling Isolation:  1 second of chill is not enough to either chase down or run from an enemy.  Besides it only works if you caught up to the enemy.

Shackling Wave: 1 Second of immobilize on an aftercast that long is just enough to let your opponent know they were hit by shackling wave.  The vulnerability is good, though.  Too bad there's no damaging skills to take advantage of the extremely short immobilize.

Facet of Darkness:  3 seconds of fury pulsing every 3 seconds.  So, it goes away once you need to do anything else other than sit on it.

Facet of Strength: 6 seconds of might pulsing every 3 seconds.  This comes to a total of... 2 stacks of might.  Utterly insignificant.  Most classes stack more might than that by accident.

Facet of Elements: 3 seconds of swiftness.  You're basically immobile if you don't have this up, which sucks because this is your damage skill.

Facet of Chaos: 2 seconds of protection.  It is quite literally inept, and the noise pollution makes this objectively the most offensive skill in the game.

Elder's Respite:  3 seconds of regeneration every 10 seconds.  Utterly useless, because proccing regen at 50% health means you're getting beat down hard, and slowly gaining health at that point is worthless.  Other professions that get regen have it on night permanently.

Shared Empowerment:  Might for 4 seconds, shared every 3 seconds while in Glint.  So, you get an additional 1.33 stacks of might, but only half the time. 

Reinforced Potency:  60 concentration.  Show me one fight where 60 concentration was the difference between survival and defeat, and I'll hack my ear off and mail it to you.  This does NOTHING!

Notoriety:  1 stack of might for 5 seconds when using a utility skill.  So, 2 stack from Shiro and 2 stacks from Herald before this drops off the face of the earth.  Got it.

 

And so on.  I can go on for longer, but that's the gist of it.  With one exception (fury) all boons are given for short durations tied to high energy costs/cooldowns.  With one exception (vulnerability) all conditions have such low durations that they do nothing at all.  An astute observe might notice that I left Incensed Response off of the above list.  That is the only might generation skill that is mediocre.  It's not great.  It is just mediocre.  It gives out 2 might for 4 seconds upon gaining fury, and luckily there's some fury spam in the build.  So, if you combine all of these skills and traits together and blow all of your skills at once, you'll get maybe 15 might for 3 seconds after the damage burst.   That's all before you're forced to swap to staff and run away for 20 seconds because everything is on cooldown.

 

 

I'm getting fairly tired now, so I'll just sum up the rest.  The Herald has been nerfed in such a way that it has low damage, no way to buff itself meaningfully, no downed play, no good sustained damage, no good sustain, no ranged play, terrible defenses, terrible condition management, long telegraphs that are easily dodged or interrupted, and a series of traits so pivotal that the entire class has been nerfed around them.  Herald wasn't "balanced," it was deliberately killed off in competitive modes.  The only thing it can do now is run around in a zerg with full diviner gear, because 100% boon duration is the only way to make the boons actually matter.  This has made me consider running power mirage again, because at least I could warp around confusing newbs while I feebly flopped around the map.  

Yeah, p herald is so bad in roaming right now, haven't touched it in months, and haven't been threatened by one in that span unless they were 3v1 ganking me. I should add condi herald still works but gets hard carried by torment runes + tank stats.

Edited June 27, 2021 by ArthurDent.9538

[Sobx.1758]

15 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

You’re currently showing your lack of understanding of how benchmarks work. Benchmarks DO NOT run with all boons. They run with the 7 most common boons that are practically guaranteed in any appropriately comped raid group.  A 5% damage increase from using All Boons instead of Realistic is significant 

Power herald vs power renegade is irrelevant since we’re discussing power herald’s performance compared to the overall metagame. All of my comments are geared towards that. Ren already has several much better builds than Herald so comparing to Renegade’s most niche build (power) is kind of irrelevant.  

 

And it’s not a nitpick. People in this thread are using outdated, bad information to try to prove their points and not doing their due diligence for their research. There’s a HUGE difference between 33k bench and 30k bench, especially on a power class with no burst. 

That's considering you take your weird assumption as an undeniable fact. That assumption being "everything needs to be top to be worth playing" (which is why you keep talking about "metagaming" and meta builds along with their dps), while herald very obviously and almost inevitably provides more than pure deeps solely by picking dragon stance. And if you want to just play meta builds in meta comps, then pick those meta builds and there's no more need for you to cry about everything not being meta, because everything will never be meta anyways.

[ArthurDent.9538]

10 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

That's considering you take your weird assumption as an undeniable fact. That assumption being "everything needs to be top to be worth playing" (which is why you keep talking about "metagaming" and meta builds along with their dps), while herald very obviously and almost inevitably provides more than pure deeps solely by picking dragon stance. And if you want to just play meta builds in meta comps, then pick those meta builds and there's no more need for you to cry about everything not being meta, because everything will never be meta anyways.

There's wanting everything to be top, and there's saying "hey 30% behind top is kind of extremely excessive" especially when the last few patches have been nerfing the barely over 30k dps herald harder than most of the 35k+ dps builds including the 40k dps renegade. But hey continue to strawman everyone who is getting frustrated  with this direction as wanting herald to be best at everything.

Edited June 27, 2021 by ArthurDent.9538

[Sobx.1758]

4 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

"hey 30% behind top is kind of extremely excessive"

Except it's not, especially the way the raids in gw2 are balanced and considering it's not a pure dps.

 

4 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

But hey continue to strawman everyone who is getting frustrated  with this direction as wanting herald to be best at everything.

And YOU are talking about "strawman" here? Where did I say "they wanted to be best at everything" in the post you just answered to?

 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

That's considering you take your weird assumption as an undeniable fact. That assumption being "everything needs to be top to be worth playing" (which is why you keep talking about "metagaming" and meta builds along with their dps), while herald very obviously and almost inevitably provides more than pure deeps solely by picking dragon stance. And if you want to just play meta builds in meta comps, then pick those meta builds and there's no more need for you to cry about everything not being meta, because everything will never be meta anyways.

My "weird assumptions" are undeniable facts fam.  People in this thread have shown that they don't understand how benchmarks work and that they can't provide up to date reliable information.  I've done both. 

Months later I still haven't said I want Herald to be THE meta, but instead HAVE said I want it to have a decent power build at about 34-35k.  Considering Power Herald has LOW BURST compared to other Power specs, 34-35k is an acceptable level of sustain, especially considering most other power builds with MUCH HIGHER BURST achieve sustain damage on these levels OR HIGHER.   In order to achieve damage at 34-35k on Herald, Anet should force the user to take Forceful Persistence and DROP Draconic Echo, meaning the overall level of "extra support" it brings is extremely low and irrelevant.   Shining Aspects could also be reworked into a DPS trait (it's currently super bad), forcing another choice between "more dps" (hypothetical shining aspects) vs "more support" (Shared Empowerment). 

There are plenty of ways to buff and make a low to medium tier Power Herald build work without overpowering its own supportive options.  It's not particularly difficult to come up with meaningful solutions that can do this; I mostly see a massive lack of creativity from those that say Herald "already brings so much support and therefore can't have higher dps options."  The truth is it can, it just requires some very minor thinking outside of the box. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Infusion.7149]

2 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

My "weird assumptions" are undeniable facts fam.  People in this thread have shown that they don't understand how benchmarks work and that they can't provide up to date reliable information.  I've done both. 

Months later I still haven't said I want Herald to be THE meta, but instead HAVE said I want it to have a decent power build at about 34-35k.  Considering Power Herald has LOW BURST compared to other Power specs, 34-35k is an acceptable level of sustain, especially considering most other power builds with MUCH HIGHER BURST achieve sustain damage on these levels OR HIGHER.   In order to achieve damage at 34-35k on Herald, Anet should force the user to take Forceful Persistence and DROP Draconic Echo, meaning the overall level of "extra support" it brings is extremely low and irrelevant.   Shining Aspects could also be reworked into a DPS trait (it's currently super bad), forcing another choice between "more dps" (hypothetical shining aspects) vs "more support" (Shared Empowerment). 

There are plenty of ways to buff and make a low to medium tier Power Herald build work without overpowering its own supportive options.  It's not particularly difficult to come up with meaningful solutions that can do this; I mostly see a massive lack of creativity from those that say Herald "already brings so much support and therefore can't have higher dps options."  The truth is it can, it just requires some very minor thinking outside of the box. 

So you yourself are just admitting what I wrote 2 pages ago. Renegade would still be stronger due to 70K + burst even if you got your beloved herald buff which would make it into an autoattack class. Buffing forceful persistance isn't the way, it's already a 13% modifier. It's far more likely the consume skills get doubled or tripled damage in PVE , and that's only if they felt it was an actual issue.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

2 hours ago, Infusion.7149 said:

So you yourself are just admitting what I wrote 2 pages ago. Renegade would still be stronger due to 70K + burst even if you got your beloved herald buff which would make it into an autoattack class. Buffing forceful persistance isn't the way, it's already a 13% modifier. It's far more likely the consume skills get doubled or tripled damage in PVE , and that's only if they felt it was an actual issue.

I didn't necessarily disagree with your analysis in the past post I quoted you in.  I disagreed with your linked video, which I made clear in my subsequent posts.  I didn't address the analysis specifically. 

If I personally could change Herald to achieve a 34-35k DPS Bench I would do the following:

1. Buff Burst of Strength.  It should be stronger damage given its long cast time.  The only meaningful thing it does right now is the 25% damage modifier given that it's barely stronger than just autoattacking.
2. Buff Elemental Blast slightly
3. Buff Chaotic Release
4. Buff Forceful Persistence to 15% for regular upkeep and 5% for Herald.  This is fairly minor overall and helps replace the damage loss from the recent nerfs while also not being out of line with other classes overall.  I also think % All Damage would be nice to have here to enable a lesser Condi Herald in PvE.
5. Turn Shining Aspects into some sort of DPS trait that competes with Shared Empowerment.  It doesn't necessarily have to be a flat "% Damage" modifier and could be more creative.  Should interact with the Facets in some way.

Only the Facet buffs would directly affect Boon Herald.  Since Boon Herald is now at 27.5k, with not even full uptimes on most of the boons it provides, I don't see a direct buff to Boon Herald as an issue.  It would only put it back to where it was, which is niche at best.  The rest of the buffs ofc would allow for players that want a Power Herald playstyle to be more viable than its current 30k All DPS Traits kitten Tier benchmark.   Meaningful choices between Draconic Echo/Forceful Persistance and Shared Empowerment/HypotheticalDPS-ShiningAspects is what the spec needs to move forward. 

 

Edited June 28, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[Obtena.7952]

5 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

There are plenty of ways to buff and make a low to medium tier Power Herald build work without overpowering its own supportive options.  It's not particularly difficult to come up with meaningful solutions that can do this; I mostly see a massive lack of creativity from those that say Herald "already brings so much support and therefore can't have higher dps options."  The truth is it can, it just requires some very minor thinking outside of the box. 

Sure, it CAN be done ... but that's not the question here. @Sobx.1758 is spot on here. If you want to talk about balance, then meta is irrelevant ... and so are benchmarks because the sum of a class is more than just how much DPS it can do.

 

The most important question here is WHY it should be changed. You know what Anet sees? They see people playing classes and they see how much those classes are played .. and if it's played in a range that Anet finds to be 'a good place', the performance reason for WHY something needs a change becomes very insignificant. In otherwords, it's reasonable that class changes due to performance happen primarily when classes are played outside this 'good place' range. 

 

We know Anet cares about what and how much classes are played so May 11th patch (where Herald was pretty much untouched) is a pretty good hint to us about what Anet sees in the data from the game on what and how much Power Herald is played. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I didn't necessarily disagree with your analysis in the past post I quoted you in.  I disagreed with your linked video, which I made clear in my subsequent posts.  I didn't address the analysis specifically. 

If I personally could change Herald to achieve a 34-35k DPS Bench I would do the following:

1. Buff Burst of Strength.  It should be stronger damage given its long cast time.  The only meaningful thing it does right now is the 25% damage modifier given that it's barely stronger than just autoattacking.
2. Buff Elemental Blast slightly
3. Buff Chaotic Release
4. Buff Forceful Persistence to 15% for regular upkeep and 5% for Herald.  This is fairly minor overall and helps replace the damage loss from the recent nerfs while also not being out of line with other classes overall.  I also think % All Damage would be nice to have here to enable a lesser Condi Herald in PvE.
5. Turn Shining Aspects into some sort of DPS trait that competes with Shared Empowerment.  It doesn't necessarily have to be a flat "% Damage" modifier and could be more creative.  Should interact with the Facets in some way.

Only the Facet buffs would directly affect Boon Herald.  Since Boon Herald is now at 27.5k, with not even full uptimes on most of the boons it provides, I don't see a direct buff to Boon Herald as an issue.  It would only put it back to where it was, which is Niche at best.  The rest of the buffs ofc would allow for players that want a Power Herald playstyle to be more viable than its current 30k All DPS Traits kitten Tier benchmark.   

 

Burst of Strength currently has the same 25% modifier as "Sic Em" , but with damage on it and a far lower cooldown. Even Glyph of Elemental Power is 25% , consumed on hits not duration , and does almost nothing for power builds because it is only burn/bleed. Of all things that shouldn't be touched if the goal is to up DPS, the damage is comparable to Darkrazor for example.

Elemental Blast right now has 3.45 total coefficient over its 3 pulses. As I stated above, it is the most likely skill to be buffed if herald DPS is deemed problematic, maybe doubled coefficient or more pulses (6 to match renegades) to add ~2.3K DPS total raising a Forceful Persistence build to ~33K (the log has 0 life steal and <2% condi, so 98% of damage is multiplied by 12 for 3 facets or 13% in shiro) and possibly more with Notoriety (250 power is ~7% more on full banner + might). Incidentally this would also increase the low burst that you suggested is a problem.

Chaotic Release is a CC skill with 2.0 coefficient already. I don't see it gaining damage for that reason and because it has a 20s base cooldown. Currently it only factors in as ~500DPS , <2% of the current benchmark.

Increasing Forceful Persistence by 2% would not help as much with the burst "issue". It would just make herald an autoattack class like daredevil. This is not an exaggeration by the way, Preparation Thrust ~13% of DPS , Brutal Blade ~11.6%, Rift Slash ~12.4% , rift slash (rift) ~2.9%, Impossible Odds ~12.2% , Lightning strike on sigil ~3.3%, facet of nature assassin ~0.9%, total ~ 56%. If you weave a 2 skill (chilling isolation which is ~15%) in you're at > 70%. Also I don't see a point in buffing condi herald, as the minor traits are all for power damage and there is no condi weapon to swap to so you're relegated to mace mainhand either way.

I disagree about the Shining Aspect/Shared Empowerment traits. Shared Empowerment could easily provide more might stacks in PVE on the facet of strength , which would upgrade herald usefulness in 10 man scenarios significantly because it can bring Assassin's Presence so can substitute for a druid if the might problem is solved. (Spotter is default on power soulbeast.) Tacking on damage onto consume skills just adds extra complexity and doesn't help the stronger build of herald which is boon focused.

The idea of increasing modifiers is a step in the wrong direction.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Infusion.7149

[ArthurDent.9538]

Holy kitten some of you people are so adamantly against changes that would do almost nothing to the meta but make people who want to play power dps herald and not be at such a massive inherent disadvantage in dps races. Do you like protesting against the salvation army and stealing treats from puppies in your spare time too?

[Obtena.7952]

10 hours ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

... but make people who want to play power dps herald and not be at such a massive inherent disadvantage in dps races ...

Nothing stops people from playing power DPS Herald now though. Here is the problem ... there isn't a 'DPS race' to be won, so there isn't a disadvantage that needs to be addressed. A class is more than just it's DPS output and if you don't get that, you aren't understanding why power Herald doesn't need to be 'fixed'. 

Edited June 28, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Sobx.1758]

16 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

My "weird assumptions" are undeniable facts fam. 

No, they're not, fam but nice effort to just disregard what I wrote I guess?

 

16 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

People in this thread have shown that they don't understand how benchmarks work and that they can't provide up to date reliable information.  I've done both. 

...how is this relevant to what I wrote fam?

No, really, I need that explained, because I don't understand what you've just responded to.

 

16 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Months later I still haven't said I want Herald to be THE meta, but instead HAVE said I want it to have a decent power build at about 34-35k. 

And it DOES have a decent power build while also almost inevitably providing passive support. If you don't want to provide that almost inevitable passive support than there's no good reason to pick herald in the first place. If there's a reason, then explain to me what it is. It's not a huge difference in gameplay compared to other rev builds and whenever I ask this question, I'm left without an answer, so somehow I can't get people to help me understand even if I actively try to.

 

 

[ArthurDent.9538]

7 hours ago, Sobx.1758 said:

oh nooooo you got called out on your BS attempt at using strawman and now you're dodging, how unexpected 🙄

 

Your quote: 

On 6/27/2021 at 3:52 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

That's considering you take your weird assumption as an undeniable fact. That assumption being "everything needs to be top to be worth playing" (which is why you keep talking about "metagaming" and meta builds along with their dps), while herald very obviously and almost inevitably provides more than pure deeps solely by picking dragon stance. And if you want to just play meta builds in meta comps, then pick those meta builds and there's no more need for you to cry about everything not being meta, because everything will never be meta anyways.

 He didn't make any assumptions remotely along those lines and he certainly didn't assert them as facts, this is literally text book strawman from you. You might want to look up what a strawman argument is if you don't believe me. Also very curious what kind of strawman you think I've made, I've just roughly explained some of my personal desires for revenant balance while correcting a few objectively false assertions that people have made.

[Sobx.1758]

6 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

 

Your quote: 

 He didn't make any assumptions remotely along those lines and he certainly didn't assert them as facts, this is literally text book strawman from you. You might want to look up what a strawman argument is if you don't believe me.

"we’re discussing power herald’s performance compared to the overall metagame. All of my comments are geared towards that"

 

🤔 

 

6 minutes ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Also very curious what kind of strawman you think I've made, I've just roughly explained some of my personal desires for revenant balance while correcting a few objectively false assertions that people have made.

Literally the part where you "accused" ME of doing that:

"But hey continue to strawman everyone (...) as wanting herald to be best at everything."

 

Thought it was pretty obvious seeing how I've commented on that, pointing out that exact part: Where did I say "they wanted to be best at everything" in the post you just answered to?

 

[ArthurDent.9538]

10 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

"we’re discussing power herald’s performance compared to the overall metagame. All of my comments are geared towards that"

 

🤔

 

Literally the part where you "accused" ME of doing that:

"But hey continue to strawman everyone (...) as wanting herald to be best at everything."

 

Thought it was pretty obvious seeing how I've commented on that, pointing out that exact part: Where did I say "they wanted to be best at everything" in the post you just answered to?

 

 

How exactly do you equate comparing one build to the rest of the meta as an assumption that "everything needs to be top to be worth playing". Like they aren't even close in what they mean. He is saying hey herald dps is ____ while most other dps builds are in the range of ____ and by extension I would like to maybe close the gap a bit it's quite large instead of prying it open like anet decided to do for some reason. What you are saying he is saying is a mind set that if either of us had, we would have stopped playing herald in pve years ago as its never been close to the top which is why its really weird you think he thinks that way.

[Sobx.1758]

Just now, ArthurDent.9538 said:

How exactly do you equate comparing one build to the rest of the meta as an assumption that "everything needs to be top to be worth playing".

If it doesn't need to be, then there's no reason to try and equate it to the meta builds, which ARE considered top. If he just wants the dps to be "good enough" then what he should be equating it to is the content itself, not speedrunning comps with top builds in premade squads. This seems pretty obvious to me.

 

Just now, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Like they aren't even close in what they mean. He is saying hey herald dps is ____ while most other dps builds are in the range of ____ and by extension I would like to maybe close the gap a bit it's quite large instead of prying it open like anet decided to do for some reason.

And considering herald almost inevitably adds support to the equasion (otherwise why pick herald over any other revenant build? Seriously, someone finally let me in on the secret), its dps is high enough for the content.

 

Just now, ArthurDent.9538 said:

What you are saying he is saying is a mind set that if either of us had, we would have stopped playing herald in pve years ago as its never been close to the top which is why its really weird you think he thinks that way.

No, what I said was exactly what I said, but thanks. If he doesn't try to argue that it should be close to the top then he has no point at all here and nothing to argue about for the reasons stated before.

 

 

And seeing no response to the second part, I assume you admit to your strawman when you claimed I said something I didn't. 🙄

 

[ArthurDent.9538]

57 minutes ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If it doesn't need to be, then there's no reason to try and equate it to the meta builds, which ARE considered top. If he just wants the dps to be "good enough" then what he should be equating it to is the content itself, not speedrunning comps with top builds in premade squads. This seems pretty obvious to me.

 

And considering herald almost inevitably adds support to the equasion (otherwise why pick herald over any other revenant build? Seriously, someone finally let me in on the secret), its dps is high enough for the content.

 

No, what I said was exactly what I said, but thanks. If he doesn't try to argue that it should be close to the top then he has no point at all here and nothing to argue about for the reasons stated before.

 

 

And seeing no response to the second part, I assume you admit to your strawman when you claimed I said something I didn't. 🙄

 

Compare =/= to equate, reading comprehension.

 

There is definitely many tiers of groups first timers doing whatever it takes to get through the encounter and absolute min-maxed speed clear record setting groups. There's a lot of people who've cleared the content dozens of times and only really enjoy replaying the content now to dps race their friends or flex on pugs which is why the terms "chrono jail "banner slave" and "alac jail" exist. For these players herald is simply non viable for the intended purpose because it is just so far behind dps you can't keep up with moderately competent dps'ers even with near perfect play. Its why I don't play fractals or raids anymore, I'd rather just not play renegade or another class and I just can't get decent results on herald anymore.

 

People like herald over renegade for the same reason why people prefer any class over another, they might prefer the aesthetics, themes, mechanics, rotation flow, etc. My problem with renegade is specifically Kalla, literally every skill is a 600 range 360 radius long duration aoe with a dancing charr in the middle that just cause obnoxious amounts of visual screen clutter. They all do different stuff but mechanically they are all the same and they are quite boring and subjectively ugly.

 

Core rev legends are more interesting with regards to skill variety but the problem is all of the dps skills are the upkeeps so you just toggle them on and spam weapon skills until out of energy and legend swap is available. This gives a fairly boring dps rotation that is only interesting when things get abnormal and you have to reallocate some of your energy to utilize other aspects of the kit, sadly pve in this game tends to be very straight forward in this regard far more interesting in competitive modes.

 

Glint is quite unique with her facets allowing a dps rotation which includes 3 different consume skills and a total of 11 button presses on glint legend skills per rotation which is a lot more busy and subjectively fun than something like Kalla which is 3 legend skills per rotation or core legends which are only 1. You could ask why not just play a higher apm class like condi engi but the thing is that I enjoy the energy management of rev and trying to figure out how to reallocate my energy usage when forced out of the standard rotation. Holo is okish in this regards but ultimately engi in general just kind of has a weird quirkiness to it animation wise that I'm not fond of. Which leads to the other thing being that Glint animations are excellent compared to renegade, I especially chaotic release. I also love infuse light mechanically as a heal, while its a lot easier to use in pve because of obvious telegraphs and enemies don't bait and stow skills its still way more interesting than the multitude of heal skills that you just spam off cooldown if you need healing.

 

Lastly you are actually correct that it wasn't you saying that "They wanted to be the best at everything" that was Dahkeus and I lumped you two together, my mistake. However The post:

That's considering you take your weird assumption as an undeniable fact. That assumption being "everything needs to be top to be worth playing" 

Is still very much also a strawman so not far off.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

Compare =/= to equate, reading comprehension.

Ah, so that's what you want to do now?

Here's what I already wrote:

"If it doesn't need to be, then there's no reason to try and equate it to the meta builds, which ARE considered top. If he just wants the dps to be "good enough" then what he should be equating it to is the content itself, not speedrunning comps with top builds in premade squads. This seems pretty obvious to me. ", reading comprehension?

 

Quote

There is definitely many tiers of groups first timers doing whatever it takes to get through the encounter and absolute min-maxed speed clear record setting groups. There's a lot of people who've cleared the content dozens of times and only really enjoy replaying the content now to dps race their friends or flex on pugs which is why the terms "chrono jail "banner slave" and "alac jail" exist. For these players herald is simply non viable for the intended purpose because it is just so far behind dps you can't keep up with moderately competent dps'ers even with near perfect play. Its why I don't play fractals or raids anymore, I'd rather just not play renegade or another class and I just can't get decent results on herald anymore.

If "they only enjoy replaying the content to dps race their friends or flex on pugs", then they're free to pick and play accordingly, using meta picks and builds. Which is exactly why I already wrote above:

"And if you want to just play meta builds in meta comps, then pick those meta builds and there's no more need for you to cry about everything not being meta, because everything will never be meta anyways.", reading comprehension?

 

Randomly "slightly buffing herald" won't change anything here, because it still won't be meta or -as you've put it- "viable" by their standards. And it doesn't need to be. Neither does it need to be buffed for other players to use it and contribute to their group. So in the end it's not about anything in particular, because it's NOT about newer players and apparently it's NOT about those meta groups, because you've already said before it doesn't need to be on meta level. Sooo... it's about baiting random buffs for the sake of buffs?

 

The terms you've decided to list here are irrelevant to anything being discussed. I know what meta is, I understand how it works. Listing builds does nothing for you here. And again, if it's not about putting it in front or at the same/similar level of meta builds then SOME DAMAGE BUFFS WON'T MAGICALLY MAKE IT "VIABLE" FOR SPEED RUNNERS. It's like you can't decide what line of argumentation you want to take: first it was "it doesn't need to be meta", now it's "it should be buffed, because herald isn't seen as viable for speed runners"... Pick a lane.

 

Quote

People like herald over renegade for the same reason why people prefer any class over another, they might prefer the aesthetics, themes, mechanics, rotation flow, etc. My problem with renegade is specifically Kalla, literally every skill is a 600 range 360 radius long duration aoe with a dancing charr in the middle that just cause obnoxious amounts of visual screen clutter. They all do different stuff but mechanically they are all the same and they are quite boring and subjectively ugly.

No, the reason is not the same as in "picking between the classes" and I already explained why I think so (like... do you still want me to play with your "reading comprehension" shtick or can we be done with it and just respond normally?), which is the gameplay pattern between herald and most of other revenant builds is nearly the same. It's SURELY not different enough for anyone to claim it's "for the flavor" or "different class/spec" feel (hey, now you DOUBLE PRESS your utility skill button when in glint, pure gamechanging class defining flavor?). It's also not like you're spamming shield on dps herald, so I'm still missing the reasoning here.

 

Quote

Core rev legends are more interesting with regards to skill variety but the problem is all of the dps skills are the upkeeps so you just toggle them on and spam weapon skills until out of energy and legend swap is available. This gives a fairly boring dps rotation that is only interesting when things get abnormal and you have to reallocate some of your energy to utilize other aspects of the kit, sadly pve in this game tends to be very straight forward in this regard far more interesting in competitive modes.

...so in one case it's "meh because the skills look bad for you" [ren] and in another it's "because the rotation is too easy/boring" [core]. Ok, then there's nothing that forbids you to play dps herald. Because, again, if it's "I want to be meta tier dps", then you don't really pick based on "interesting/boring rotation" or "the appearance of the skills", but on pure performance. But you said it's not about buffing it to meta levels, so.... Small buff to dps still leaves it """"non viable"""" (only by yours or some potential speedrunner's standards, because otherwise it IS viable). Guess you just need to make up your mind whether you want to play meta picks or "I like it" picks, because if you're ready to dismiss a class due to "boring rotation" or "ugly skills" then, um, good luck with meta expectations. (or non-meta expectations? Right now I'm actually honestly confused by what standards you deem anything to be "worthy")

 

Quote

Glint is quite unique with her facets allowing a dps rotation which includes 3 different consume skills and a total of 11 button presses on glint legend skills per rotation which is a lot more busy and subjectively fun than something like Kalla which is 3 legend skills per rotation or core legends which are only 1. You could ask why not just play a higher apm class like condi engi but the thing is that I enjoy the energy management of rev and trying to figure out how to reallocate my energy usage when forced out of the standard rotation. Holo is okish in this regards but ultimately engi in general just kind of has a weird quirkiness to it animation wise that I'm not fond of. Which leads to the other thing being that Glint animations are excellent compared to renegade, I especially chaotic release. I also love infuse light mechanically as a heal, while its a lot easier to use in pve because of obvious telegraphs and enemies don't bait and stow skills its still way more interesting than the multitude of heal skills that you just spam off cooldown if you need healing.

Are you seriously trying to push AN INSTANT DOUBLE PRESS OF A KEY as an interesting gameplay pattern vastly different from a single utility key press? I... uh, sure. Hopefully you changed your left mouse button to double click on everything to get that full double-click enjoyment while using pc. I'd be more inclined to understand it if you actually had to weave some skills there or time your button presses, but you're trying to claim that INSTANT double press of the SAME key is somehow meaningful for your gameplay experience... In what way exactly? If you want "busy", then maybe you should try weaver, lol.

 

"figure out how to reallocate my energy usage", a.k.a press additional skill/s to burn energy and then swap legends to get right back on track. Sorry, but that that's about it for "figuring it out", so... not much, if anything. And if you fail your rotations (not trying to pick on you for that, kitten happens), then maybe that's your reason for not having enough dps and not the spec itself. And pretty sure that if you need to keep saving yourself with infuse light enough for it to be even relevant as a reason for picking a build, then you're nowhere close to herald "not being enough for dps role anymore". Right? Right.

 

Quote

Lastly you are actually correct that it wasn't you saying that "They wanted to be the best at everything" that was Dahkeus and I lumped you two together, my mistake.

Ok. So strawman, but swapped it out for a mix up, no problem 😛

 

Quote

However The post:

That's considering you take your weird assumption as an undeniable fact. That assumption being "everything needs to be top to be worth playing" 

Is still very much also a strawman so not far off.

It's not a strawman and I already explained why. If it doesn't need to be anywhere near that then there's no reason to bring it up. Meanwhile after saying it doesn't need to be on meta level, you continued with this post and went on with deciding what is or isn't enough as a dps (by what standards, still unclear as far as I saw?) bringing the examples of speed runners, which... you know, points right back at top meta picks and nothing else.

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[ArthurDent.9538]

I'm done, ultimately I completely disagree with pretty much everything you have said and it is clear you are either a troll or just a very different mind set that feels obliged to take an adamantly contrarian position for no perceivable reason that I can think of. No more walls of text not worth the time.

[Blood Red Arachnid.2493]

1 hour ago, ArthurDent.9538 said:

I'm done, ultimately I completely disagree with pretty much everything you have said and it is clear you are either a troll or just a very different mind set that feels obliged to take an adamantly contrarian position for no perceivable reason that I can think of. No more walls of text not worth the time.

Well Arthur, it really helps when to learn to recognize when somebody is acting in bad faith.  The standard I use is 2 internal contradictions.  When somebody does something then immediately does the opposite, or if they claim you said something/didn't say something when it is sitting there in glowing text, or if you follow the train of quotes and their responses don't make sense, that's strike 1.  Now, everyone makes mistakes, but people don't consistently make mistakes in such an adamant manner.  If the person you're talking to keeps doing this, it means that they're either not smart enough to be reasoned with, or they aren't there to be reasonable at all.  I'd provide an example, but that would be naming and shaming, or it would be a deleted post.  Trolling, after all, is against the rules.