Caeledh.5437 Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 (edited) I'm a big nature nut. Sylvari are about 300% of GW2's appeal to me. But the game offers almost nothing in the way of nature type magic beyond the kitten Sylvari racial utilities. Sadness. In my, and a great many others' opinion, GW2's druid is extremely disappointing. The biggest problem is conceptual. Both broadly in relation to fantasy RPGs and even within GW lore, druids aren't "celestial". They're all about plants and animals. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summon_Druid_Spirit For what most players want from a druid, GW2 missed the mark by miles. Online games are handicapped when it comes to mistakes like this because the rule of the bird in the hand. Presumably at least some people like the current iteration and are playing it. Change druid and ANet might not only lose them, but fail to lure many birds out of the proverbial bush. Cos they've already looked at original druid, not liked it, and moved on. Permanently. However, there is a solution. Extend the existing pet system. Rangers have a collection of pets. Add one or for my tastes several more slots to it for the druid form. Players who enjoy the current blue starry thing could keep using it. Players who want something else could also have what they want. Slot One = Form This quest from Caledon was one of my all time favourite moments in the game. Becoming that Mossheart and shambling about doing tree things. Over all too soon and no coolness like it offered ever again. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Assist_Arias_in_maintaining_his_garden That's bad game design. Peak early and then... just disappoint. Forever. Not how you retain players. Tweak existing assets like the Mossheart transform and others like the Norn spirit ones. Sprinkle a few spirits around the map for druids to visit and commune with / collect. Relatively cheap, easy and still allows anyone who likes the existing druid form, to keep using it. Slot Two = Cycle (of moon) Another level of customisation could allow players to nominate a moon cycle with each changing ability functions. Keep existing ability animations but maybe change the colour for each cycle. New Moon = healing / vibrant green Waxing = power (i.e. direct damage) / blue Full moon = boon duration / white or gold Waning = condition damage and duration / orange, red or a sickly green Slot Three = Attunement IMO ANet lost have crazily been shoving mechanics from outside professions into elite specs in a vain attempt to get players to play profs they don't and won't enjoy. Eg. necro shroud being crammed into ranger with the druid transform. I'm not anti transforms at all but I am anti weapon / attunement / legend swap cooldowns. Super irritating. Every additional one of those sucks joy out of the game for me. So my perfect druid would have this third slot, which would allow players to customise the form's playstyle. Each has benefits (as detailed below) and could also have tradeoffs. I play for fun, not power, so would gladly sacrifice oomf for fun. Attuned = existing druid mechanics Synthesis = unlimited duration transform; either get rid of energy mechanic or have it regenerate automatically Others? I don't know. But you get the idea. ________________________ There is the other problem of staff whose attacks are also not very druidic. Though if players could do something like an unlimited duration Mossheart transform which isn't pigeonholed into healing as I've detailed, then players wouldn't be forced to use the staff. They could get their plant on using only the form. I'd be satisfied with that. Edited July 4, 2021 by Caeledh.5437 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frareanselm.1925 Posted July 4, 2021 Share Posted July 4, 2021 IMO the legendary centaur stance from Revenant feels 10 times more druid, than the actual ranger druid, this is sad. 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caeledh.5437 Posted July 4, 2021 Author Share Posted July 4, 2021 1 minute ago, frareanselm.1925 said: IMO the legendary centaur stance from Revenant feels 10 times more druid, than the actual ranger druid, this is sad. I said pretty much he same thing in another thread recently. And mechanically Ventari is much more to my tastes than Druid. Even revenant's Shiro feels more druidic than GW2's druid. Just for having green glowy effects. If ANet would stop cramming cooldowns and other dinky mechanics into revenant, I'd just play them. Unfortunately with 2 out of 2 elite specs pooping on the promise and fun of the base profession, investing any time or effort in my revenant characters seems insane. But that's a different problem. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted July 5, 2021 Share Posted July 5, 2021 Have to fix pets first before giving them a bigger role with any profession or build. 8 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caeledh.5437 Posted July 5, 2021 Author Share Posted July 5, 2021 19 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said: Have to fix pets first before giving them a bigger role with any profession or build. That's a fascinating insight. But totally unrelated to anything I or anyone else in this thread has said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted July 6, 2021 Share Posted July 6, 2021 (edited) On 7/5/2021 at 12:21 AM, Caeledh.5437 said: GW2's druid is extremely disappointing. The biggest problem is conceptual. Why can't you at least be honest? It's biggest problem has nothing to do with the concept, but how the mechanics of the spec turned out and how it is currently used. Your problem is that the concept doesn't fit the visuals that you want for your ranger. You're hung up on themes that don't matter. They're not gonna rework the concept of an elite spec that came out soon-to-be two expacs ago. They might overhaul the mechanics, though. Edited July 6, 2021 by Lazze.9870 6 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted July 6, 2021 Share Posted July 6, 2021 12 hours ago, Caeledh.5437 said: That's a fascinating insight. But totally unrelated to anything I or anyone else in this thread has said. Yeah, perhaps you should read your own posts then? On 7/4/2021 at 6:21 PM, Caeledh.5437 said: However, there is a solution. Extend the existing pet system. Rangers have a collection of pets. Add one or for my tastes several more slots to it for the druid form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caeledh.5437 Posted July 7, 2021 Author Share Posted July 7, 2021 17 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said: Yeah, perhaps you should read your own posts then? You quite obviously didn't. Absolutely nothing I said involved, as you claimed, pets getting a bigger role. On 7/5/2021 at 12:49 PM, kharmin.7683 said: Have to fix pets first before giving them a bigger role with any profession or build. Quote me saying that. You can't because I didn't. What I suggested was using the pet system and UI to allow rangers to also attune to different spirits for use with the druid form. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caeledh.5437 Posted July 7, 2021 Author Share Posted July 7, 2021 20 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said: Why can't you at least be honest? It's biggest problem has nothing to do with the concept, but how the mechanics of the spec turned out and how it is currently used. Your problem is that the concept doesn't fit the visuals that you want for your ranger. You're hung up on themes that don't matter. They're not gonna rework the concept of an elite spec that came out soon-to-be two expacs ago. They might overhaul the mechanics, though. Thank you. I always appreciate a chuckle. You completely randomly accuse me of being dishonest. Attempt to justify this by claiming that my problem is with the concept. Which is..... exactly what I said. On 7/5/2021 at 8:21 AM, Caeledh.5437 said: In my, and a great many others' opinion, GW2's druid is extremely disappointing. The biggest problem is conceptual. So how exactly was I dishonest? And good gracious, obviously you're completely wrong about theme not mattering. Theme is fundamental! This is a graphical RPG. Theme and visuals are extremely important. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 3 hours ago, Caeledh.5437 said: You quite obviously didn't. Absolutely nothing I said involved, as you claimed, pets getting a bigger role. Quote me saying that. You can't because I didn't. What I suggested was using the pet system and UI to allow rangers to also attune to different spirits for use with the druid form. But I did quote you. Verbatim. You said "However, there is a solution. Extend the existing pet system." To which I said that Anet ought to fix the pets first before doing anything else with them. I never said anything about pets getting a bigger role. How about you quote me saying that? You can't, because I didn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 (edited) On 7/7/2021 at 6:59 AM, Caeledh.5437 said: Thank you. I always appreciate a chuckle. You completely randomly accuse me of being dishonest. Attempt to justify this by claiming that my problem is with the concept. Which is..... exactly what I said. So how exactly was I dishonest? And good gracious, obviously you're completely wrong about theme not mattering. Theme is fundamental! This is a graphical RPG. Theme and visuals are extremely important. The theme doesn't matter because Anet isn't gonna do anything about it SIX YEARS LATER. The theme doesn't matter because it thematically still fit the guild wars lore. The theme doesn't matter because there is nothing inherently wrong with a heal elite spec for ranger. Dishonest is refering to the fact that you claim this is the fundamental core issue with druid atm when it's not. I'm asking you to be honest about the fact that you think this is the biggest issue with druid because you wanted something else. The fundamental problems are the mechanical aspects of the avatar, the glyphs, the traits, the question of why the pet was handled the way it was and the fact that core ranger - and by that I mainly refer to the Nature Magic traitline - needs a better foundation for a pure support spec on ranger to be competetive in pvp/wvw. You want a plant magician. Then you better hope Anet goes that route later. Edited September 16, 2021 by Lazze.9870 2 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsaneQR.7412 Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 I personally think the easiest way to improve core druid is to give them options to change CAF via GM traits. Like: - a sun themed form for damage, burning, blinding and might. - a moon themed form for healing, slowing, chilling and stealth - an earth themed form for CC, crippling, rooting and bleeds That would be one of the easier ways to implement and would bring so much more flexibility to the class mechanic. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
anduriell.6280 Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 41 minutes ago, InsaneQR.7412 said: I personally think the easiest way to improve core druid is to give them options to change CAF via GM traits. Like: - a sun themed form for damage, burning, blinding and might. - a moon themed form for healing, slowing, chilling and stealth - an earth themed form for CC, crippling, rooting and bleeds That would be one of the easier ways to implement and would bring so much more flexibility to the class mechanic. I like the idea, it would make the druid very distinctive, but that would require a full rework of the specialization (not only effects but animations as well) and i wouldn't be sure the devs are considering the effort. At this point as other said: * Improve pets functionality, that is an important part as the Druid still has the pets fumbling around. * Fix core so it has some good foundation. * Define the druid role properly, "a buff bot for raids" is not a role. * Provide the druid with the propper tools to fulfill that role. 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 (edited) 52 minutes ago, InsaneQR.7412 said: I personally think the easiest way to improve core druid is to give them options to change CAF via GM traits. Like: - a sun themed form for damage, burning, blinding and might. - a moon themed form for healing, slowing, chilling and stealth - an earth themed form for CC, crippling, rooting and bleeds That would be one of the easier ways to implement and would bring so much more flexibility to the class mechanic. I mean, it's cool on paper, but it wouldn't be the easiest. Nor the best. Druid doesn't need flexibility, it needs to be able to perform as a support oriented elite spec outside of PvE. The flexibility should lie in whether you focus on CC, heals or boons/buffs (might, superspeed?). Adding new things like burn and chill to the spec just pollutes it and will lead to the same nerf bats as before. The easiest way to improve druid is to improve or rework the low hanging fruit. Refine Glyph of the Stars, completely change Glyph of Unity, make staff 2 not useless, increase the size of staff 5, healing should scale better with healing power, change CA1, increase radius of CA2 and do some work with Nature Magic so that core ranger brings something to the table. Possibly add a little bit of resolution and/or resistance into the spec? Ancient Seeds needs to go, but the trait should still interact with CCs. Lingering Light should be an aoe blind and heal on entering the avatar, increase outgoing healing all the time with an additional increase when in the avatar. Primal Echoes should activate a Lesser Glyph of Equality. Druidic Clarity and Celestial Shadow need some work to allow a lower CA cooldown (or no cooldown, if they'd put some effort into the resource management). DC is great, but it should always have been an AoE clear imo. Focus on support. Celestial Shadow is tricky. It's cool but if they put some proper work into druid, it wouldn't have to lean on this crutch anymore anyways. Abandon the stealth and implement the superspeed into something else? If they want to do a more serious overhaul, then they should possibly adress the pet. I'd say remove it completely or have them be visually represented as spirit forms with no player interactions. Replace them with new F skills, one of them a beast skill. The avatar can proc the pet swap traits. Removing the pet is a pretty substanial move away from how druid is played right now and one of the easiest sources of accumulating astral force, so it would have to be done properly. Edited July 7, 2021 by Lazze.9870 5 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kharmin.7683 Posted July 7, 2021 Share Posted July 7, 2021 2 hours ago, InsaneQR.7412 said: I personally think the easiest way to improve core druid is to give them options to change CAF via GM traits. Like: - a sun themed form for damage, burning, blinding and might. - a moon themed form for healing, slowing, chilling and stealth - an earth themed form for CC, crippling, rooting and bleeds That would be one of the easier ways to implement and would bring so much more flexibility to the class mechanic. Sounds a lot like tempest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caeledh.5437 Posted July 8, 2021 Author Share Posted July 8, 2021 15 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said: But I did quote you. Verbatim. You said "However, there is a solution. Extend the existing pet system." To which I said that Anet ought to fix the pets first before doing anything else with them. How about you quote me saying that? You can't, because I didn't. False. I've already quoted you saying this and anyone can scroll up to see that and your post. What could you hope by gain with these malicious and obvious lies? On 7/5/2021 at 12:49 PM, kharmin.7683 said: Have to fix pets first before giving them a bigger role with any profession or build. As is crystal clear from my original post, I said absolutely nothing about increasing the role of pets. What I suggested is that their UI and system could also be used to allow Druids to collect multiple spirit forms. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caeledh.5437 Posted July 8, 2021 Author Share Posted July 8, 2021 13 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said: Druid doesn't need flexibility. The point and potential great of flexibility isn't only to satisfy some benchmark of adequacy for the profession. I explain it clearly in my OP but I'll say it again. It's to broaden its potential appeal. The more players who can enjoy it, the better. Most people won't throw money at ANet when they're not enjoying the game. GW's Druid is thematically not very druidic. Celestial Avatar form is a weird blue starry thing. And mechanically, with necro's shroud, it's also not to everyone tastes. As I explained in my OP, a major handicap of online games is that mistakes like this can't be easily reversed. You risk angering those players who do like whatever the mistake is. The ideal solution preserves the current gameplay while also offering others players what they want. And is relatively cheap to develop. My solution ticks all of these boxes. Players who like the current celestial avatar form could continue playing it exactly as it is. Players who want something which looks more traditionally druidic, i.e. plant or animal like, could also be happy. It'd be cheap - using as is or slightly modified existing assets and systems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Caeledh.5437 Posted July 8, 2021 Author Share Posted July 8, 2021 14 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said: The theme don't matter because Anet isn't gonna do anything about it SIX YEARS LATER. As I've already said, theme is fundamental. This is a graphical RPG. 14 hours ago, Lazze.9870 said: Dishonest is refering to the fact that you claim this is the fundamental core issue with druid atm when it's not. I'm asking you to be honest about the fact that you think this is the biggest issue with druid because you wanted something else. I was completely up front and honest about loving nature stuff. On 7/5/2021 at 8:21 AM, Caeledh.5437 said: I'm a big nature nut. Sylvari are about 300% of GW2's appeal to me. But the game offers almost nothing in the way of nature type magic beyond the kitten Sylvari racial utilities. Sadness. In my, and a great many others' opinion, GW2's druid is extremely disappointing. The biggest problem is conceptual. Both broadly in relation to fantasy RPGs and even within GW lore, druids aren't "celestial". They're all about plants and animals. https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Summon_Druid_Spirit For what most players want from a druid, GW2 missed the mark by miles. You can't seriously be suggesting that I could have ANY clearer on that point. Lots of people share that love and get a kick out of nature type stuff in RPGs. I also gave an example from within GW2 of what people expect / want of druids. Celestial Avatar is a colossal swing and a miss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
voltaicbore.8012 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) I don't care much for any of @Caeledh.5437's suggested gameplay changes, but I'm not opposed to the idea of giving druids some mechanism to re-skin celestial avatar. As nice as it sounds to have CA form be of unlimited duration, I feel it would be highly out if line with transformations like shroud, rampage, and tornado (shroud being the closest kin, as Cael already noted). As much as you find proper themes important, I'd say gameplay mechanics take precedence. As such, I'd simply prefer to see ANet revert several nerfs (give pets their stats back, return the evade on staff 3, restore CA generation) rather than add anything new at this point. I know, not imaginative. It's just that I have little faith that ANet could properly give druid such a fundamental overhaul amid their current priorities. Edited July 8, 2021 by voltaicbore.8012 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
InsaneQR.7412 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 21 hours ago, kharmin.7683 said: Sounds a lot like tempest. Well it is not dissimilar to elementalist from a flavor perspective. But only one CAF could be available at the time and no switching between elements during combat. The form is just defined by trait choice. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, Caeledh.5437 said: The point and potential great of flexibility isn't only to satisfy some benchmark of adequacy for the profession. I explain it clearly in my OP but I'll say it again. It's to broaden its potential appeal. The more players who can enjoy it, the better. And I will explain myself clearly, again. Druid was nerfed to the ground for its flexibility at launch. It was meant to be a support spec, let it excell at that and stop asking for additions that only pollutes what it is supposed to do. Focus on the healing, the CC and its buffing capabilities. Make it a good support spec in all modes of the game, not just its current PvE role. That's not adequacy, that's being competetively viable at doing its purpose in all areas of the game. Your ideas of what druid should be thematically don't matter because druid in guild wars isn't the traditional rpg druid. Even in GW1 lore, where they clearly took more inspiritaion from that angle, it was far from traditional druid that you are repeatedly asking for. A skill like Rejuvenating Tides makes perfect sense for druid. The waters in the Maguuma jungle in GW1 granted a regeneration effect when you stood in them. It's pretty easy to see what angle the designers were aiming for, thematically, when they went with what they did. And yes, druid probably saw some redesignings and was possibly not meant to be a support spec from the get-go. It feels rushed, but that's where it landed. And that's fine, because support is something core Ranger can't do at all. The problem that still remains because Anet has done nothing but nerfing this spec over and over, is to iron out the clunkiness, the awful parts of it and hopefully it can make a greater impact in pvp/wvw as well. As a support. Not by doing damage by shooting vines at people (even though you get several skills on core ranger + druid to do just that, if plants please you so much). Edited July 8, 2021 by Lazze.9870 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 On 7/7/2021 at 12:58 PM, Lazze.9870 said: Druid doesn't need flexibility Hard disagree. Druid is, outside of high end team content, entirely boring, wasted, unengaging, and uninteresting to play, with no redeeming qualities. Flexibility would go a long way towards fixing that. 1 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, The Boz.2038 said: Hard disagree. Druid is, outside of high end team content, entirely boring, wasted, unengaging, and uninteresting to play, with no redeeming qualities. Flexibility would go a long way towards fixing that. Maybe you should read the entire post next time. Maybe you'd understand why I'm saying what I'm saying and why polluting druid with all kind of nonsense because some of you guys wanted it play in one particular way or other won't do it any good. Too much flexibility will only lead to countless nerfs and the wishy washy remains of what druid is now. A support that can't support outside of PvE, and can't do much else either except from meme trapper builds or trolling people 1v1. You're also making the assumption that focusing in on healing, CC and some buffs automatically makes it not engaging to you. Well, guess what? Maybe you shouldn't play a kittening spec that was meant to support people? And excuse me, but Anet won't even fix the low hanging fruits on druid, I'm hoping for that and a bit more to push it towards what it was meant to be. You guys want unrealistic overhauls. Edited July 8, 2021 by Lazze.9870 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Boz.2038 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 3 minutes ago, Lazze.9870 said: You're also making the assumption that focusing in on healing, CC and some buffs automatically makes it not engaging to you This sentence makes no sense. How do I "assume" something's not engaging to me? Also, yeah. I'm not playing Druid. There is literally no reason to. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lazze.9870 Posted July 8, 2021 Share Posted July 8, 2021 (edited) 9 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said: This sentence makes no sense. How do I "assume" something's not engaging to me? Also, yeah. I'm not playing Druid. There is literally no reason to. You're assuming the core aspects of healing and CC will always make it boring to you. You're basing that on what druid is now, NOT what it could be by keeping those ideas and overhauling and refining them. It makes no sense to you because you can't stop and think for a moment, you have zero interest to make an actual conversation instead of spewing out one-liners when you can't even grasp what you're replying to. Again, you don't want to play the role druid was meant to do? Then don't play it. You're asking it to do stuff it was never designed for. Btw, a staff/GS remorseless druid is more enganging than any of the recent meta builds for ranger/soulbeast in pvp. Edited July 8, 2021 by Lazze.9870 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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