Stealth removed on missed attacks/reflects

[Zeesh.7286]

PLEASE make stealth reveal the player if they miss attacks or have their projectiles reflected/destroyed. Punish poor button mashing and attack spamming from stealth. 

Edited July 5, 2021 by Zeesh.7286

[bigo.9037]

21 hours ago, Zeesh.7286 said:

PLEASE make stealth reveal the player if they miss attacks or have their projectiles reflected/destroyed. Punish poor button mashing and attack spamming from stealth. 

Should include blocks and evades ofc but yes 

[Fueki.4753]

Stealth should just make the user translucent if they are close (or better yet all the time), instead of completely invisible all the time.

And it needs to be stripped when the user takes damage.

 

Stealth needs proper counterplay.

Edited July 6, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Sobx.1758]

2 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Stealth should just make the user translucent if they are close (or better yet all the time), instead of completely invisible all the time.

And it needs to be stripped when the user takes damage.

 

Stealth needs proper counterplay.

What you proposed here isn't a "counterplay", it's rendering it useless for the class that has their class mechanic based on it.

[Zeesh.7286]

8 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

Should include blocks and evades ofc but yes 

YES! Blocks/evades as well. Stealth should not be a low ceiling get out of jail/win card. It's a mechanic that deserves to be used with some braincells instead of the way it is abused right now. 

[Zeesh.7286]

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Stealth should just make the user translucent if they are close (or better yet all the time), instead of completely invisible all the time.

Kind of on the No side for this. I think it would make stealth borderline useless

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

And it needs to be stripped when the user takes damage.

Also I think this is a bit of a BIG nerf to stealth making it borderline useless since most classes can spam massive aoes of damage.

6 hours ago, Fueki.4753 said:

 

Stealth needs proper counterplay.

For sure! I think any form of attack/offensive skill should remove thief stealth even if the attacks fail to land or hit the target. This should include shortbow 5. Though I'll be happy if stealth gets revealed on successful evades/blocks/reflects of attacks too

[TinkTinkPOOF.9201]

If a skill is used, but is blocked, evaded, blinded etc etc it should reveal the player.

 

When a player in stealth takes dmg, dmg floaters should still show, having to keep my chat window on combat so I can see strikes doesn't make sense, there is no reason for this to be hidden just because someone is in stealth.

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

Using a skill should reveal someone after using it. Being hit should reveal you as well, but I'd be fine with damage floaters being visible instead.

[Astralporing.1957]

Stealth currently serves three different functions.

- It is a way to completely avoid combat. In pve that allows skips, in PvP modes it allows you to not get interrupted when you travel to somewhere.

- It is a way to escape from combat (not the same as above). A survival trick that, if things won;t go your way, lets you flee to fight another day (but see further).

- It is a way to execute surprise ambushes, allowing you to initiate combat on your own terms

 

Each of those effects is not really a problem individually. The real problem comes from combination of them. Primarily, from the way in which you can chain second and third function one after another, in quick succession, allowing you to keep ambushing and escaping until enemy falls.

 

So, the solution, if it has to work, must not disable any of the main functions, but only affect the way you can chain them.

 

For example, escaping with stealth from combat might give you a debuff to damage, that lasts a while (i don't know what should be reasonable - except that in SPvP it probably should be shorter than in WvW), and is stackable in intensity (i.e. -10% to dps per stack - meybe more if that is not significant enough). On the other hand, engaging from stealth should either give you longer reveal, or apply a lengthy stackable debuff that increases the length of reveals you get while under its effect.

 

This way, you can easily ambush and engage once, but if it fails, you really should give up and look elsewhere, because each next attempt is likely going to go even worse for you.

[DeceiverX.8361]

On 7/7/2021 at 2:40 PM, Astralporing.1957 said:

Stealth currently serves three different functions.

- It is a way to completely avoid combat. In pve that allows skips, in PvP modes it allows you to not get interrupted when you travel to somewhere.

- It is a way to escape from combat (not the same as above). A survival trick that, if things won;t go your way, lets you flee to fight another day (but see further).

- It is a way to execute surprise ambushes, allowing you to initiate combat on your own terms

 

Each of those effects is not really a problem individually. The real problem comes from combination of them. Primarily, from the way in which you can chain second and third function one after another, in quick succession, allowing you to keep ambushing and escaping until enemy falls.

 

 

This is why D/P daredevil is a problem moreover than thief itself.  And to some extent Smokescale pet and Sword Mirage.

 

It's the only build which controls both.  The rest lack the ability to either repeatedly engage with stealth (D/P only) or disengage (Dash).  Stealth on its own is really not that strong.  A lot of people just don't realize you can still hit and kill a thief who's stealthed.

 

The problem is this design is so engrained into thief the rest of the builds generally suck from a stats perspective.  ANet designed the thief into doing this playstyle against the wishes of many thief players years ago with the infamous "mobility" meme livestream.

[Obtena.7952]

On 7/5/2021 at 12:46 PM, Zeesh.7286 said:

PLEASE make stealth reveal the player if they miss attacks or have their projectiles reflected/destroyed. Punish poor button mashing and attack spamming from stealth. 

Actually, there is a good case for extending stealth because missing the attack is already punishment enough. 

[Astralporing.1957]

11 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Actually, there is a good case for extending stealth because missing the attack is already punishment enough. 

First, it's far less "punishment" than it would be if you missed an attack while not being stealthed. Second, if you miss an attack, it is because you made a misplay. You attacked someone behind a reflect or using a defensive skill. Considering that the other person could not even see you, yes, you should be punished for this with far more than just having to wait till the skill you used will get off cooldown again.

Basically, when you commit to engage in combat, you should be forced to follow through with it, so you actually have to think well about how and when you might want to do it.

[Obtena.7952]

16 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

First, it's far less "punishment" than it would be if you missed an attack while not being stealthed. Second, if you miss an attack, it is because you made a misplay. You attacked someone behind a reflect or using a defensive skill. Considering that the other person could not even see you, yes, you should be punished for this with far more than just having to wait till the skill you used will get off cooldown again.

Basically, when you commit to engage in combat, you should be forced to follow through with it, so you actually have to think well about how and when you might want to do it.

Sure that's true but stealth in this game isn't based on 'reward' or 'punishment' and shouldn't be changed so it is either. 

 

Put it this way ... if being revealed is going to be a punishment for missing an attack, then what is the reward for landing one? I mean, if people are going to propose a link to failure and stealth ... then they better be thinking about a reward for success when using stealth to. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Astralporing.1957]

4 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure that's true but stealth in this game isn't based on 'reward' or 'punishment' and shouldn't be changed so it is either. 

 

Put it this way ... if being revealed is going to be a punishment for missing an attack, then what is the reward for landing one? I mean, if people are going to propose a link to failure and stealth ... then they better be thinking about a reward for success when using stealth to. 

Stealth already offers you a reward for success. The reward is either in the stealth attack itself, or in being able to execute the attack without the other side seeing you do it and thus being able to defend against it until after the fact.

[Obtena.7952]

5 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Stealth already offers you a reward for success. The reward is either in the stealth attack itself, or in being able to execute the attack without the other side seeing you do it and thus being able to defend against it until after the fact.

Sure, you get a bonus for landing a stealth attack vs. the regular non-stealthed version ... but it doesn't make sense to punish missing an attack.  I mean, that's just not how combat works in this game. The punishment is the missed attack. That's not just stealthed people either ... that's how it works for everyone. Somehow we need ANOTHER punishment in case a person was stealthed? I don't see why ... other than people crying about stealth this and stealth that. 

 

I mean, if the attack lands, sure, then reveal the player. If it doesn't, I fail to see the logic in revealing them. The 'punishment' of missing the attack is ALREADY fitting enough ... just like it is for everyone else. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[bigo.9037]

On 7/11/2021 at 6:08 PM, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure, you get a bonus for landing a stealth attack vs. the regular non-stealthed version ... but it doesn't make sense to punish missing an attack.  I mean, that's just not how combat works in this game. The punishment is the missed attack. That's not just stealthed people either ... that's how it works for everyone. Somehow we need ANOTHER punishment in case a person was stealthed? I don't see why ... other than people crying about stealth this and stealth that. 

 

I mean, if the attack lands, sure, then reveal the player. If it doesn't, I fail to see the logic in revealing them. The 'punishment' of missing the attack is ALREADY fitting enough ... just like it is for everyone else. 

No????? Because if you miss an attack while in stealth, the enemy has no counterplay options as you are still stealthed and can easily avoid taking any damage. Meanwhile a missed attack without stealth actually makes sense with your explanation. 
 

no stealth missed atk: your opponent can punish you directly for your mistake. Either by kiting to stay alive longer or damage you directly.
 

stealth missed atk: your opponent can’t do anything, and if the stealth lasts long enough and they used a block or dodge to time your atk, they just wasted a dodge cus they can’t punish you for the miss. All the counter strategies to this work the same or better vs a non stealth miss.

Edited July 13, 2021 by bigo.9037

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, bigo.9037 said:

No????? Because if you miss an attack while in stealth, the enemy has no counterplay options as you are still stealthed and can easily avoid taking any damage.

That doesn't make sense ... define what you mean by 'counterplay' to a missed attack. The stealth has no consequence here. If a stealthed (or unstealthed) person misses an attack there isn't any counterplay to that in the first place ... because they missed. Be happy. 

 

You're trying to make this about being stealthed or not ... but missing an attack has nothing to do with whether the attacker is stealthed. If you want to talk about counterplay and stealth, that is NOT about making people miss attacks, it's about having more 'reveal' mechanics to counterplay with. Having someone reveal on missing an attack isn't counterplay because the opponent doesn't actually DO anything in that case ... there is no 'play'. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[bigo.9037]

2 hours ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't make sense ... define what you mean by 'counterplay' to a missed attack. The stealth has no consequence here. If a stealthed (or unstealthed) person misses an attack there isn't any counterplay to that in the first place ... because they missed. Be happy. 

 

You're trying to make this about being stealthed or not ... but missing an attack has nothing to do with whether the attacker is stealthed. If you want to talk about counterplay and stealth, that is NOT about making people miss attacks, it's about having more 'reveal' mechanics to counterplay with. Having someone reveal on missing an attack isn't counterplay because the opponent doesn't actually DO anything in that case ... there is no 'play'. 

What are you talking about? How the kitten do you think your attack missed? Enemy timed your hit perfectly by evading it without being able to see you.

If this happens without stealth:

enemy is short 1evade but you missed and atk, all else being equal.

 

If this happens WITH stealth:

enemy loses evade, you miss atk. Enemy can’t attack you, can’t see you, can’t anticipate next move reliably, but you can do ALL of these things and if you play thief you can just use your attack AGAIN by waiting for ini reset. 
 

you lose extremely little by missing an attack while stealthed especially on thief. The “equation” doesn’t add up because you don’t LOSE anything unless you blow a huge CD and somehow still managed to miss despite being stealthed, which again.. should be punished. You had all this time to reposition yourself being invisible but you still failed. 

[Obtena.7952]

41 minutes ago, bigo.9037 said:

What are you talking about?

It's pretty simple ... stealth mode is not generally linked to success or failure of attacks and there isn't any logical reason it should be ... unless people are just pandering to stealth hate as they normally do. That's clearly not how it was designed. This is just another attempt to degrade the stealth mechanic. 

 

Put it this way ... if we are going to suggest making a design shift from stealth mode having a duration window of application to stealth mode being more dependent on success of attack, then the suggestion isn't broad enough to carry the discussion any further. Overlapping multiple conditions for stealth mode simply makes it more difficult to use (which I'm sure is your intent) as well as more difficult to balance. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Obtena.7952 said:

It's pretty simple ... stealth mode is not generally linked to success or failure of attacks

And you can stop saying anything more, because you are so very wrong right here, and everything you saidl later hinges on that erroneous assumption.

 

Stealth is very much linked to success or failure of attacks. An attack made out of stealth is much harder to avoid or defend against, because you don't see it coming. It's much harder to get the timing of dodge or defensive skill right if you lack visual cues that might tell you when to do it.

 

I thought that should be pretty much obvious to anyone.

 

[Obtena.7952]

25 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And you can stop saying anything more, because you are so very wrong right here, and everything you saidl later hinges on that erroneous assumption.

 

Stealth is very much linked to success or failure of attacks. An attack made out of stealth is much harder to avoid or defend against, because you don't see it coming. It's much harder to get the timing of dodge or defensive skill right if you lack visual cues that might tell you when to do it.

 

I thought that should be pretty much obvious to anyone.

 

No, stealth is not linked to success or failure of attacks. Other than Dagger 5, no attack gives me stealth and outside of the reveal mechanic, nothing takes you out of stealth but it's duration. 

 

Again, if the suggestion here is to make stealth mode design more about what you do and what happens to you vs. the duration dictated by the skill that gives you stealth, this suggestion is far too thin to even breech the topic. If we want to talk about the things that happen that take you out of stealth, we ALSO need to talk about the things that happen that can put you in it. It doesn't make sense to have one mechanic to put you in it ... and many more mechanics that take you out. 

 

Basically, there has to be a balance of ways to access stealth that match the ways that apply revealed. If you have many more conditions on reveal than you have stealth ... well, that obviously becomes a balancing issue. If you have feather triggered effects that remove you from stealth, likewise we should have feather triggered conditions to put you in it. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[knite.1542]

6 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Other than Dagger 5, no attack gives me stealth

 

Hunter's shot on ranger gives stealth.

Tow line on thief gives stealth

Smoke trail on thief gives stealth

If you count steal as an attack, that can also be traited to give stealth.

[Obtena.7952]

4 minutes ago, knite.1542 said:

 

Hunter's shot on ranger gives stealth.

Tow line on thief gives stealth

Smoke trail on thief gives stealth

If you count steal as an attack, that can also be traited to give stealth.

That doesn't change what I said though ... Thieves don't use ranger LBow for instance ... so what are you talking about? 

 

The point here is that if we are going to expand the conditions that thieves are revealed, that needs to come at a recognition that this is changing stealth mechanics and should ALSO include conditions that thieves are stealthed. Otherwise it's just a blatant play for stealth hate nerfs. 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[knite.1542]

1 minute ago, Obtena.7952 said:

That doesn't change what I said though ... Thieves don't use ranger LBow for instance ... so what are you talking about? 

 

The point here is that if we are going to expand the conditions that thieves are revealed, that needs to come at a recognition that this is changing stealth mechanics and should ALSO include conditions that thieves are stealthed. 

The statement was wrong. That's all.

[Obtena.7952]

8 minutes ago, knite.1542 said:

The statement was wrong. That's all.

Well, no it's not wrong. I mean sure, there are skills and traits that give you stealth. That has nothing to do with the context of the discussion that was being had. It's NOT unreasonable to think that if we are going to propose GENERALLY applying reveals due to missing attacks, then it's only fitting we ALSO generally apply stealth to some reasonable number or frequency of landed attacks as well. The closest we get to an attack that does that is dagger 5. Do you think the extent of that stealth giving attack is sufficient to make up for being revealed on missing an attack? I certainly don't. 

 

The current mechanic for stealth is pretty simple ... you get a duration and you are out of stealth when you successfully attack, are revealed or duration ends. That's a pretty reasonably balanced condition since getting stealth isn't typically based on passive methods and counterplaying stealth is an expensive proposition to the target. Suggesting we add another revealing condition is just obvious stealth hate vitriol. 

 

 

Edited July 13, 2021 by Obtena.7952