Stealth removed on missed attacks/reflects

[Obtena.7952]

On 7/21/2021 at 3:22 AM, Cynz.9437 said:

I wonder how many people know that thieves already get punished for missing an attack?

It doesn't matter to them. They simply hate stealth ... so they make up ideas to nerf it that don't make sense. The whole 'missing in stealth needs punishment' thing is simply how they justify it, no matter how absurd it is. 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Stealth is thief's class mechanic.  For better or worse, the entire profession is designed around using stealth to varying degrees depending on build.  When people ask to reduce thief's access to stealth, they seem to forget how inherently squishy (low HP) thief is and how much its damage has been nerfed over the years.  Thief does not have access to (often passive) invulns and blocks the way other professions do, so it depends on stealth, mobility, and positioning (very active play) to survive.

 

Imagine kicking Soulbeasts out of Beastmode and putting a cooldown on re-entering for missing an attack.  Imagine doing the same with Necros in Shroud, Holos in Holomode, etc.  All of these are signature class/specialization mechanics with available counter play just like thieves and stealth.  Do any other classes get temporarily denied their "special mode" just for trying but failing to connect an attack while in it?  Their attacks may not have the advantage of stealth but they do have other perks while in their special mode.  Why should only stealth be singled out other than simply not liking how it works?

 

That said, adding Reveal for missed/blocked/reflected/invulned/evaded attacks makes some inherent sense imo, and would certainly raise the skill floor for playing thief (and other stealth-based builds).  Are we prepared to give other playstyles the same treatment?

[fuzzyp.6295]

Personally, I think stealth should remain if the players attack is evaded or misses, but it should be removed if the stealth attack is blocked or reflected. Basically, situation one  is the player is not hitting their target, so stealth remains on, while the other situation has the player is hitting their target, although doing no effect.  One problem I admit is Aegis becomes a pretty hard counter to stealth in that regard.  Ah well, not like it'll ever happen anyway. 🙂

[Fueki.4753]

2 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Stealth is thief's class mechanic.

Steal, (and its variations) and Initiative are Thief's profession mechanics.

It's arguable whether dual attacks also count, given that Weaver got a variation of them.

 

to quote the official wiki:

"Profession mechanics are combat abilities exclusive to a given profession."

 

Since not only Thief, but several other professions also have too much access to Stealth,

Stealth objectively doesn't fit the official definition of profession mechanics.

 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Fueki.4753

[Za Shaloc.3908]

1 hour ago, Fueki.4753 said:

Steal, (and its variations) and Initiative are Thief's profession mechanics.

It's arguable whether dual attacks also count, given that Weaver got a variation of them.

 

to quote the official wiki:

"Profession mechanics are combat abilities exclusive to a given profession."

 

Since not only Thief, but several other professions also have too much access to Stealth,

Stealth objectively doesn't fit the official definition of profession mechanics.

 

 

Stealth attacks only exist on Thief, so although stealth isn't necessarily a class mechanic, it has a class mechanic uniquely tied to it. Technically speaking I would say you are right, but it is a bit more nuanced than that IMO.

[bigo.9037]

12 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Stealth is thief's class mechanic.  For better or worse, the entire profession is designed around using stealth to varying degrees depending on build.  When people ask to reduce thief's access to stealth, they seem to forget how inherently squishy (low HP) thief is and how much its damage has been nerfed over the years.  Thief does not have access to (often passive) invulns and blocks the way other professions do, so it depends on stealth, mobility, and positioning (very active play) to survive.

 

Imagine kicking Soulbeasts out of Beastmode and putting a cooldown on re-entering for missing an attack.  Imagine doing the same with Necros in Shroud, Holos in Holomode, etc.  All of these are signature class/specialization mechanics with available counter play just like thieves and stealth.  Do any other classes get temporarily denied their "special mode" just for trying but failing to connect an attack while in it?  Their attacks may not have the advantage of stealth but they do have other perks while in their special mode.  Why should only stealth be singled out other than simply not liking how it works?

 

That said, adding Reveal for missed/blocked/reflected/invulned/evaded attacks makes some inherent sense imo, and would certainly raise the skill floor for playing thief (and other stealth-based builds).  Are we prepared to give other playstyles the same treatment?

When I go stealth on my soulbeast and miss an attack while in stealth, my skills actually go on cooldown unlike yours. LMAO. and all classes except thief have a limited amount of stealth available wheras thief can just stay stealthed until their backstab is ready again.

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

When I go stealth on my soulbeast and miss an attack while in stealth, my skills actually go on cooldown unlike yours. LMAO. and all classes except thief have a limited amount of stealth available wheras thief can just stay stealthed until their backstab is ready again.

Sure ... because you don't have the initiative mechanic. In otherwords, because thief is 'thief' class and isn't 'not-a-thief' class, that's perfectly reasonable that they can just stay stealthed until they aren't for whatever reason. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[bigo.9037]

5 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

Sure ... because you don't have the initiative mechanic. In otherwords, because thief is 'thief' class and isn't 'not-a-thief' class, that's perfectly reasonable that they can just stay stealthed until they aren't for whatever reason. 

So because thief is thief, thief should be allowed to have unlimited tries, remove all blocks, bait dodges all while remaining in stealth and still get the backstab in without losing anything in return because… it’s thief?

[Obtena.7952]

3 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

So because thief is thief, thief should be allowed to have unlimited tries, remove all blocks, bait dodges all while remaining in stealth and still get the backstab in without losing anything in return because… it’s thief?

No, because thief is thief, what happens on non-thief classes is irrelevant to the discussion. 

 

I know this might go right over your heads but ... ever think that maybe thieves aren't revealed when they miss BECAUSE they are on an initiative system? I mean, my point here is that you are arguing what happens with a skill on thief should be similar to other classes because of similar skills ... but that isn't a foregone conclusion. Perhaps what should happen on a class with a skill should depend on the class, not on it's similarity to other classes? That makes more sense to me, considering that's the whole point of having different classes to begin with. 

Edited July 30, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

7 hours ago, bigo.9037 said:

When I go stealth on my soulbeast and miss an attack while in stealth, my skills actually go on cooldown unlike yours. LMAO. and all classes except thief have a limited amount of stealth available wheras thief can just stay stealthed until their backstab is ready again.

 

You kind of contradicted yourself there.

 

Otherwise, yes, thief weapon skills substitute initiative for cooldowns.  All this means is thief can use lower initiative cost (usually lower impact) weapon skills repetitively without waiting for cooldowns.  But finite initiative still limits which and how many skills thief can use in a given time.  The initiative system is certainly more flexible than the standard cooldown system.  It's part of thief's profession mechanic, just like pets are Ranger's.

 

Also, unlike say, a Sic'em Rapid Fire burst from stealth with Point Blank Shot for good measure (OWP optional), all from 1800+ range, Backstab isn't going to global anyone who isn't naked.  There are pros and cons to every build.  If we're going to compare Ranger and Thief stealth attacks, let's compare all aspects.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Twilight Tempest.7584

[Cynz.9437]

On 7/30/2021 at 9:29 PM, bigo.9037 said:

So because thief is thief, thief should be allowed to have unlimited tries, remove all blocks, bait dodges all while remaining in stealth and still get the backstab in without losing anything in return because… it’s thief?

 

What you write is gross misinformation. Backstab goes on CD when fails, forcing thief using more spells to gain stealth if they want to try to use backstab again. Those spells either cost initiative or are on long CDs. Neither initiative nor spells going on CD (duhh) are limitless.

 

If you think that spending CDs/resources is definition of limitless tries then by the same logic EVERY CLASS has limitless heals.

 

Edited August 2, 2021 by Cynz.9437

[Obtena.7952]

4 hours ago, Cynz.9437 said:

 

What you write is gross misinformation. Backstab goes on CD when fails, forcing thief using more spells to gain stealth if they want to try to use backstab again. Those spells either cost initiative or are on long CDs. Neither initiative nor spells going on CD (duhh) are limitless.

 

If you think that spending CDs/resources is definition of limitless tries then by the same logic EVERY CLASS has limitless heals.

 

That's probably the worst part of threads like this ... people that have NO clue think they know how the game should work better than the devs that make it. 

[ZDragon.3046]

On 8/2/2021 at 10:31 AM, Obtena.7952 said:

That's probably the worst part of threads like this ... people that have NO clue think they know how the game should work better than the devs that make it. 

idk really this includes you too. 

People think you should be revealed for whiffing an attack and you dont agree thats fair without compensation

You think that you should get a buff when you do land the attack and others think thats silly because you all ready get natural advantage of engagement regardless of if you whiff or not.

 

As much as you like to call out other people here the same logic kind of falls back on you too with the poste ive read from you here..... that statement kind of sounds hypocritical just a tiny bit no offense. Threads like this exist usually with good intentions even if their words cant express it in the right way or from the right angle.

 

In all honesty stealth in gw2 generally bad and no other game has stealth that works like this and allows as much control as it does. Most other games balance out stealth with one or in some cases multiple of the following.

 

- Applying a DoT passively or partially reveals the person as it ticks every so often

- There are simply just more reveals in the game to combat it

- Stealth is not 100% invisibility especially within close range 

- Stealth slows you down

- Stealth is lost when you take damage but you have more options for entering stealth in general, also there is no status that keeps you revealed usually with this logic.

 

While i cant 100% agree with being revealed for whiffing an attack I can agree that the current version of stealth is pretty bad from a balance perspective in combination with other things. 

 

My 2 cents is that this game needs 2 versions of stealth

True Stealth aka The current one that grants 100% invisibility but is only applied by utility skills and traits with high cooldown.

&

A lesser one that is more easily accessed through things like smoke field leaps or blast and low cd abilities like Hunters shot etc.

- This version does not make you 100% invisible but instead uses the smoke effect form stealth 2.0 that the mounts have

- Your name plate is hidden and you cannot be directly targeted which removes your ability to be hit by a large portion of skills in the game but you can faintly be seen as that smoke cloud. Any animations you perform are hidden obviously

- This version still makes you 100% invis to pve AI or things like ranger pets, necro minions etc as they depend on targeting.

- This version still grants you most of the stealth benefits such as sneak attacks if your class offers those etc

- The revealed effect does not prevent its application

- Still removed upon dealing damage or performing certain actions.

 

If the game was built this way you could even argue that someone in 100% stealth should not be exposed upon being hit with a reveal instead they just get stripped down to the lesser stealth for the duration.

 

Regardless if you agree or not the point of this thread was likely due to frustration of how the current stealth works especially when its combo'ed with other things like blinds or applied on classes who shouldn't have as much or any access to it.... (thanks trapper runes) You may not agree with most peoples ideas on how IT SHOULD WORK but should perhaps be a bit more open minded about why people are so frustrated about it and want it changed in some way. Even I am tired of eating 12k True shots from stealth because I didnt dodge true shot on rng cause the animation was hidden on a class that shouldn't have stealth access from the start.

 

[Obtena.7952]

11 minutes ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

People think you should be revealed for whiffing an attack and you dont agree thats fair without compensation

You think that you should get a buff when you do land the attack and others think thats silly because you all ready get natural advantage of engagement regardless of if you whiff or not.

 

No hold on, I never said anyone should be buffed for landing an attack and what I'm asking here isn't really compensation; it's simply equivalence of mechanics. What I'm saying is that there isn't a need to punish a miss from stealth, because how stealth is accessed on thief is not based on procc'ed mechanics. If people want reveal on miss for thief attacks, then where are the procc'ed stealth effects? In otherwords, why do we need more mechanics to reveal while still limiting thief to take traits and skills to access stealth?

 

I mean there is actually two things wrong with the suggestion here.

 

1. Thieves don't need 'punishment' when they miss ... that already happens

2. The requirements on a build to access stealth is significant ... but people have no problem adding more reveal mechanics at the expense of the thief for free ... that's just stealth hate. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[ZDragon.3046]

On 7/30/2021 at 12:38 AM, fuzzyp.6295 said:

Personally, I think stealth should remain if the players attack is evaded or misses, but it should be removed if the stealth attack is blocked or reflected. Basically, situation one  is the player is not hitting their target, so stealth remains on, while the other situation has the player is hitting their target, although doing no effect.  One problem I admit is Aegis becomes a pretty hard counter to stealth in that regard.  Ah well, not like it'll ever happen anyway. 🙂

This is a solid idea even more so when you consider that thief has a trait that steals boons upon using a stealth attack.

And the way thief boon rip works is actually prioritized unlike other boon rips i'm pretty sure it would always take Aegis first over any other boon if that trait is used but I could be wrong.

[ZDragon.3046]

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

No hold on, I never said anyone should be buffed for landing an attack and what I'm asking here isn't really compensation; it's simply equivalence of mechanics. What I'm saying is that there isn't a need to punish a miss from stealth, because how stealth is accessed on thief is not based on procc'ed mechanics. If people want reveal on miss for thief attacks, then where is my stealth on hit? In otherwords, why do we need more mechanics to reveal while still limiting thief to take traits and skills to access stealth?

 

Like i said i dont really 100% agree with losing stealth  for just whiffing an attack. Some attacks are very hard to land like sword and dagger cause you have to practically be in the persons hitbox sometimes just to be sure it wont whiff by 2 pixels.

 

In most cases having the missed stealth attack on thief go on cd for 3s is enough of a punishment however you have players who will simply hide until they can get the hit which at that point becomes very abusive and limits counterplay. Or they peace out the moment they land the attack (usually the pistol attack with condi). 

Basically people play it with a bit of degeneracy that limits counter play heavily and that extremely frustrates people. In some cases its not just thief its dragon hunter and rangers too abusing trapper rune too but anet could easily solve that one.

 

Stealth on hit is actually more fair than just free stealth honestly. I would actually much rather see more skills that require you to land a hit or absorb a hit (through a counter skill of some kind) to get stealth vs things that just give it to you like jumping through smoke or doing a roll dodge with a rifle in hand.

If you are asking for more skills to give stealth on hit like cloak and dagger then that might actually be fair depending on how they work. As long as its not something instant and is at least to some extent redactable then I'm all for it. While some free stealth abilities should always exist for a class like thief they should probably mostly be utility skills and not based on using weapon skills out in the open with no target.

 

2 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I mean there is actually two things wrong with the suggestion here.

 

1. Thieves don't need 'punishment' when they miss ... that already happens

2. The requirements on a build to access stealth is significant ... but people have no problem adding more reveal mechanics at the expense of the thief for free ... that's just stealth hate. 

Stealth hate can have good reasoning though even if it seems stupid to say. I may need to give an example.

For example purposes (somewhat off topic)... People hate minion master necro im not going to argue that Necromantic Corruption shouldn't be changed because its what makes them as a build so oppressive and limits counter play. The hate against it is well within good reason. However saying something like well minions should just be deleted from the game is the wrong way of going about the problem. In this case saying thief should be revealed for out right whiffing is the wrong way of going about the problem which i think we can agree on.

 

Getting back on topic, consider the following

I would argue that there are not enough skills in the game that combat stealth specifically. How much extra reveal got added to the game since deadeye dropped... only spell breaker with 2 skills... Even if we roll it back to HoT only dragon hunter and scrapper specifically added revealing skills to the game. 

 

I would argue that anet just needs to pop a few more reveal skills into the game across other professions and elites and then there really would be no need for people to be discussing that thief should be outed for missing an attack. The answer to threads like this would be something along the lines of "you have a skill option in your utility bar, us it.. and if you miss that skill or play it poorly then well you get punished for doing so."

 

Sorry for writing so much im just critically thinking about this. 

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, ZDragon.3046 said:

Getting back on topic, consider the following

I would argue that there are not enough skills in the game that combat stealth specifically. How much extra reveal got added to the game since deadeye dropped... only spell breaker with 2 skills... Even if we roll it back to HoT only dragon hunter and scrapper specifically added revealing skills to the game. 

 

I would argue that anet just needs to pop a few more reveal skills into the game across other professions and elites and then there really would be no need for people to be discussing that thief should be outed for missing an attack. The answer to threads like this would be something along the lines of "you have a skill option in your utility bar, us it.. and if you miss that skill or play it poorly then well you get punished for doing so."

 

Sorry for writing so much im just critically thinking about this. 

I would argue that we don't need to combat stealth itself ... the Stealth effect isn't what kills you and the effectiveness of a reactionary skill like reveal, with long CD's and short durations is pretty low to begin with. Simply put, revealing skills ... pretty weak counterplay to stealth. Sends (me) the message that Anet is reluctant to allow it as it's so critical to the effective play of thieves. 

 

I think there are better and more effective ways Anet could allow stealth counterplay. I think this is a good idea ... allow stealthed players to see OTHER stealthed players. What a great way to protect yourself from a sniper ... by having your own sniper. 

Edited August 3, 2021 by Obtena.7952

[Burial.1958]

It is so crazy that after 9 years of nerfs to the thief class, that there are still peoples moan about it. This class got a lot of nerfs, there are now hardcounters (which no other class has) in the game against stealth (Trap, guards in WvWvW) which do reveal them. Thief is crazy hard to play right now  and they can't be played well outside of smallescale battles and yet there are still peoples who want to culprit this class even more. I think they only stop when thief is a freebag. So sad.

[shrew.3059]

I wonder how some players cope with other games. Do they write Hasbro to complain about imbalances in Monopoly? Maybe in MMOs it’s a game-within-a-game.

[crewthief.8649]

On 7/18/2021 at 2:27 PM, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

What reasonable points? That you don't want to be punished for missing?

 

Anet's logic on the subject is very clear--stealth is meant for squishier classes to have options for engaging / disengaging.  At the time of creation (i.e. 2012) there were few ways to really abuse the mechanic, but fast forward to now and there are too many ways to abuse it, and it's spread too far among classes that don't really need it.

 

For your compensation argument--even though I don't think it is needed--a successful attack out of stealth could do more damage because of the penalty for missing (i.e. being revealed for 1-2s).  I don't love this because it would infact create an imbalance for classes like thief that have too many out of stealth evade abilities already, but it would satisfy the earlier argument about compensation (assuming 'missing' is a penalty and not just being careless).  

Missing the attack is the punishment. Thieves cannot spam their auto-attack while in stealth, if missed it goes on cooldown. Bear in mind, that this is all occurring while the stealth is steadily ticking down to zero. There are absolutely consequences for missing an attack while in stealth. 
 

Honestly, many of you simply don’t seem to understand how the mechanic works as a Thief. Entering stealth already bears significant cost: either a utility slot (that has a cooldown), spending initiative (in which case the initiative cost for entering stealth is usually pretty substantial), or you have to trait for it (Hidden Thief / Silent Scope). With either of those last two, you’re either wasting a dodge or a steal in order to get stealth. In the context of how GW2 works, stealth is balanced.

[crewthief.8649]

On 7/30/2021 at 10:17 AM, bigo.9037 said:

When I go stealth on my soulbeast and miss an attack while in stealth, my skills actually go on cooldown unlike yours. LMAO. and all classes except thief have a limited amount of stealth available wheras thief can just stay stealthed until their backstab is ready again.

You… don’t know how Thief works, do you? Imagine a Soulbeast player complaining about Thief, of all things. You counter Thieves if you aren’t potato levels of bad.

[Zenith.7301]

On 7/6/2021 at 2:54 PM, Sobx.1758 said:

What you proposed here isn't a "counterplay", it's rendering it useless for the class that has their class mechanic based on it.

 

 

Your class mechanic boils down to making the enemy guess, and it doesn't matter if he guesses well since your tollkit allows you endless resets.

 

Every single other class pays with their life playing poorly, but only thief has the luxury of deciding when to engage and disengage fights and nobody can match them except another thief.

 

It's absolutely toxic gameplay.

 

Staff daredevils already shows thief can work without the stealth spam, albeit it went the completely opposite way of evade spam and it doesn't fix the fact Shadow Step is an absolutely overpowered utility that gives 2x blinks, 2x stuns, and cleanses condi to boot. The thief heals are overloaded as well. Low cd, and with either copious condi cleanse, evades, or stealth built in.

 

And it's richly ironic that despite thematically not being supposed to be the interrupt/denial class, it is the class with the best interrupt in the game because it is spammable, does a metric ton of damage, and steal also stuns with no telegraph whatsoever just like backstab from stealth.

 

Thief needs the warrior treatment. Deadly bursts and CC attempts should have counterplay and failing to pull them off should mean getting downed, not "oops, played badly, time to shadowstep/stealth out and try again when my native low cd's are back up".

[Obtena.7952]

1 hour ago, Zenith.7301 said:

 

 

Your class mechanic boils down to making the enemy guess, and it doesn't matter if he guesses well since your tollkit allows you endless resets.

 

Every single other class pays with their life playing poorly, but only thief has the luxury of deciding when to engage and disengage fights and nobody can match them except another thief.

 

It's absolutely toxic gameplay.

 

Staff daredevils already shows thief can work without the stealth spam, albeit it went the completely opposite way of evade spam and it doesn't fix the fact Shadow Step is an absolutely overpowered utility that gives 2x blinks, 2x stuns, and cleanses condi to boot. The thief heals are overloaded as well. Low cd, and with either copious condi cleanse, evades, or stealth built in.

 

And it's richly ironic that despite thematically not being supposed to be the interrupt/denial class, it is the class with the best interrupt in the game because it is spammable, does a metric ton of damage, and steal also stuns with no telegraph whatsoever just like backstab from stealth.

 

Thief needs the warrior treatment. Deadly bursts and CC attempts should have counterplay and failing to pull them off should mean getting downed, not "oops, played badly, time to shadowstep/stealth out and try again when my native low cd's are back up".

Some of that is true, some isn't ... but the question is ... what does any of this have to do with the topic?

[Gotejjeken.1267]

16 hours ago, crewthief.8649 said:

Missing the attack is the punishment. Thieves cannot spam their auto-attack while in stealth, if missed it goes on cooldown. Bear in mind, that this is all occurring while the stealth is steadily ticking down to zero. There are absolutely consequences for missing an attack while in stealth. 
 

Honestly, many of you simply don’t seem to understand how the mechanic works as a Thief. Entering stealth already bears significant cost: either a utility slot (that has a cooldown), spending initiative (in which case the initiative cost for entering stealth is usually pretty substantial), or you have to trait for it (Hidden Thief / Silent Scope). With either of those last two, you’re either wasting a dodge or a steal in order to get stealth. In the context of how GW2 works, stealth is balanced.

 

You can spam many things in stealth though (ex: heartseeker).  Initiative also recovers quite quickly, and if skilled can pop in and out of stealth practically at will (i.e. cloak and daggering off random things, etc.).   

 

There are also ways for thief to stay in stealth for a very long time, long enough to either be far away from an attacker or to reset enough to be able to leave combat.  Being able to reposition and control the fight through invisibility is pretty strong, on any class.

 

So lets not act like thief doesn't have plenty of builds that will still nearly one-shot non-tank builds, as well as having teleportation, mass stealth access, and mass evade access.  Add onto all that the capability to run the usual trolling condi builds and it looks like the class is fine for what it is meant for (smallscale / distraction / ganking).  

[crewthief.8649]

4 hours ago, Gotejjeken.1267 said:

 

You can spam many things in stealth though (ex: heartseeker).  Initiative also recovers quite quickly, and if skilled can pop in and out of stealth practically at will (i.e. cloak and daggering off random things, etc.).   

 

There are also ways for thief to stay in stealth for a very long time, long enough to either be far away from an attacker or to reset enough to be able to leave combat.  Being able to reposition and control the fight through invisibility is pretty strong, on any class.

 

So lets not act like thief doesn't have plenty of builds that will still nearly one-shot non-tank builds, as well as having teleportation, mass stealth access, and mass evade access.  Add onto all that the capability to run the usual trolling condi builds and it looks like the class is fine for what it is meant for (smallscale / distraction / ganking).  

Cloak and Dagger costs a lot of initiative and is generally not worth that cost. Not to mention, it can be challenging to land it. Initiative does not regenerate so quickly that one can be as careless as they like. Also, why on earth would someone be spamming Heartseeker in stealth??? I mean, maybe a clueless noob Thief, but otherwise…

If the Thief resets the fight, then it resets for you as well. Nothing can be capped by a Thief in stealth, so these points are irrelevant and frankly meaningless. Thief is meant to control the tempo and conditions of a fight, thus, this aspect of the class is working as intended. They have 11k base HP and can be 100 to 0 in literal seconds by multiple classes, including Soulbeast (which can do it from 1500 range).

Finally, Thief does not have plenty of builds that will nearly one-shot. I don’t know where you’re getting that. You clearly do not like the Thief class nor the stealth mechanic in general, my best advice to you would be to learn how to counter stealth, because it isn’t going anywhere. Roll a Thief and go out there and dominate with it if it’s so simple.

Edited September 12, 2021 by crewthief.8649