Runes of Tormenting should be changed?

[SirTomato.3627]

Maybe 1s internal cooldown between healing per target hit?
I just tried these runes and healing they provide is absurdly high. You can just turn on "embrace the darkness" and semi-afk farming spot without fear that something will kill you. Same for group events as long EtD hitting few targets you become almost unkillable and using dodges and defensive abilities become very optional.

It would be fair if any profession has this kind of option but this feature available only to revenants that make me a bit salty. Runes last bonus usually a bonus and not that powerful that make it main purpose of getting them

 

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

Rev isn’t the only class that can use them. Mesmer and Necro (especially Scourge and Mirage) can make high use of them too and both of those can do so more consistently than Rev at range.  Thief (mostly daredevil) can make slight use of them as well if they really want to. 
 

in PvE the sustain is relatively irrelevant overall. Almost every class can be built in some way to have extremely high sustain if necessary. Torment runes are also not best in slot for damage for rev, necro, or mesmer Condi builds, so it’s not as if there are immortal high tier damage builds running around.  Taking the runes is a damage loss; the trade off ofc here is the much higher sustain for lower damage overall. 

[Virdo.1540]

6 hours ago, SirTomato.3627 said:

Maybe 1s internal cooldown between healing per target hit?
I just tried these runes and healing they provide is absurdly high. You can just turn on "embrace the darkness" and semi-afk farming spot without fear that something will kill you. Same for group events as long EtD hitting few targets you become almost unkillable and using dodges and defensive abilities become very optional.

It would be fair if any profession has this kind of option but this feature available only to revenants that make me a bit salty. Runes last bonus usually a bonus and not that powerful that make it main purpose of getting them

 

Like said above, sustain in PvE isnt worth talking about.

 

Condi revs were kinda problematic in WvW before.

Then they completely destroyed (its damage &) sustain by the removal of resistance, which it completely relied on. 

Back in the days, without the runes, condi Revs in WvW where pretty much garbage. Now, a lot weaker, the runes arent capable of carrying the condi rev anymore. Time for nerf? No. That opportunity was missed, even though it would have saved CRev from its suffering now.

 

(and btw, passive booning works for semi-afk farm too)

Edited July 7, 2021 by Virdo.1540

[The Boz.2038]

No. too much collateral damage  for something that no longer needs to be addressed.

[Za Shaloc.3908]

On 7/7/2021 at 4:00 AM, Virdo.1540 said:

Time for nerf? No. That opportunity was missed, even though it would have saved CRev from its suffering now.

 

 

That's basically how I feel about the situation now. I pretty vocally advocated for nerfs to Tormenting runes before resistance/torment got changed, but now? Meh. If it's strongest in open world content, I don't think that's much of an issue, at least currently. At its core I suppose I still think they are too strong because of the absurd amount of sustain that they offer, but I no longer think it's a pressing issue since they aren't exactly heavily abusable in WvW like they previously were.

 

If I had it my way, I would have reworked Tormenting runes a long time ago, and I would have actually taken a moment to think about the balance implications of changing the functionality of resistance & torment for a spec that was designed heavily around both.

Edited July 8, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

3 hours ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

That's basically how I feel about the situation now. I pretty vocally advocated for nerfs to Tormenting runes before resistance/torment got changed, but now? Meh. If it's strongest in open world content, I don't think that's much of an issue, at least currently. At its core I suppose I still think they are too strong because of the absurd amount of sustain that they offer, but I no longer think it's a pressing issue since they aren't exactly heavily abusable in WvW like they previously were.

 

If I had it my way, I would have reworked Tormenting runes a long time ago, and I would have actually taken a moment to think about the balance implications of changing the functionality of resistance & torment for a spec that was designed heavily around both.

This is 100% the correct answer to any "Torment Runes too OP" questions and also to the functionality changes for Resistance and Torment

Edited July 9, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[otto.5684]

On 7/7/2021 at 12:41 AM, SirTomato.3627 said:

Maybe 1s internal cooldown between healing per target hit?
I just tried these runes and healing they provide is absurdly high. You can just turn on "embrace the darkness" and semi-afk farming spot without fear that something will kill you. Same for group events as long EtD hitting few targets you become almost unkillable and using dodges and defensive abilities become very optional.

It would be fair if any profession has this kind of option but this feature available only to revenants that make me a bit salty. Runes last bonus usually a bonus and not that powerful that make it main purpose of getting them

 

Welcome to the party. You are like 7 years late? It is not in spvp so who cares? Plus, if you think rev get high mileage out of it, try it on mirage.

[lodjur.1284]

Torment Runes were never an issue (except during the 2 or so days when they were bugged and procced from every condi that was a bit broken).

 

Immunity to a damage type was an issue. 

 

Condi Rev is in a very good spot balancewise atm in WvW (where Torment Runes are relevant).

 

The latest major balance patch giving them a bit more damage at the cost of sustain. 

 

It could use a rework of banish enchantment and/or abyssal chill. The spam banish playstyle needs to go. 

 

It could use some minor buffs to other things tho like Axe could use a bit more damage and EtD could be instant. 

 

Overall Torment Runes enable a unique high risk high reward playstyle that wouldn't be possible without them. 

[Za Shaloc.3908]

6 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Torment Runes were never an issue (except during the 2 or so days when they were bugged and procced from every condi that was a bit broken).

 

Immunity to a damage type was an issue. 

 

Condi Rev is in a very good spot balancewise atm in WvW (where Torment Runes are relevant).

 

The latest major balance patch giving them a bit more damage at the cost of sustain. 

 

It could use a rework of banish enchantment and/or abyssal chill. The spam banish playstyle needs to go. 

 

It could use some minor buffs to other things tho like Axe could use a bit more damage and EtD could be instant. 

 

Overall Torment Runes enable a unique high risk high reward playstyle that wouldn't be possible without them. 

 

I have been Banish Enchantment spammed quite a handful of times since the patch and haven't found it to be even half as oppressive as it used to be. However, I haven't really played any condi Rev since the changes so I can't speak from the other side. Do you still think it's giving too much value?

I disagree about EtD being instant though. That would make it far too easy to combo with skills mid-animation and toggle off as needed. At least with a cast time currently, it is more of a commitment when using it.

[lodjur.1284]

22 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

I have been Banish Enchantment spammed quite a handful of times since the patch and haven't found it to be even half as oppressive as it used to be. However, I haven't really played any condi Rev since the changes so I can't speak from the other side. Do you still think it's giving too much value?

Compared to how easy it is to do, imo, yes. Also how strong it is when outnumbering. 

 

If it was melee pbAoE, had a reasonable CD or higher cost.  It would imo not be a problem. 

 

Spammable high ranged damage also feels very mechanically strange on mallyx as the rest is the legend encourages melee.

Quote

I disagree about EtD being instant though. That would make it far too easy to combo with skills mid-animation and toggle off as needed. At least with a cast time currently, it is more of a commitment when using it.

It would put it more in line with the other upkeep skills though and since it's inherently not bursty or active defense wouldn't see instant as an issue. 

 

Compare to vengeful hammers and impossible odds.

 

EtD is the the very identity of mallyx too.

 

I'd imagine a removal of abyssal chill and a removal of the casttime from EtD would be something most players would feel was a nerf.

Edited July 10, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[Za Shaloc.3908]

1 hour ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Compared to how easy it is to do, imo, yes. Also how strong it is when outnumbering. 

 

If it was melee pbAoE, had a reasonable CD or higher cost.  It would imo not be a problem. 

 

Spammable high ranged damage also feels very mechanically strange on mallyx as the rest is the legend encourages melee.

It would put it more in line with the other upkeep skills though and since it's inherently not bursty or active defense wouldn't see instant as an issue. 

 

Compare to vengeful hammers and impossible odds.

 

EtD is the the very identity of mallyx too.

 

I'd imagine a removal of abyssal chill and a removal of the casttime from EtD would be something most players would feel was a nerf.

 

You are very right, BE is extremely easy to use, and it has a very low energy cost, but with the torment damage only increasing from when a target is immob'd or stunned, it doesn't feel too bad IMO. And I would say that BE being ranged is very crucial to Mallyx--at least non-Renegade builds--in order to help close the gap and to provide a degree of pressure while out of melee range. I can absolutely see your perspective because the skill is quite stacked, but it doesn't feel like the insta-win key like it used to before the torment rework. But hey, I accept that I could be wrong about this. After all, I haven't played it since the torment rework, so I am only speaking from the perspective of the receiving end. My previous suggestion pre-torment rework was to only have BE as one pulse (removing 3x boons) to reduce the synergy it has with Abyssal Chill.

 

I disagree that EtD lacks burst. It has extremely high torment output potential when comboing with other skills, and if you could more freely toggle it on to line up with burst/combos without having to worry about the disruption of a cast time and a potential interrupt, it would make it too oppressive and take away a lot of the counterplay. I do agree that it feels a bit disjointed from the rest of the core legend upkeep skills in that it is *not* instant-cast, but to me it still warrants it. Had you argued from the perspective of the previous EtD, I would have agreed with you. The current EtD disrupts the combat flow, but I think for good reason and for sufficient reward.

Edited July 10, 2021 by Za Shaloc.3908

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

1 hour ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Compared to how easy it is to do, imo, yes. Also how strong it is when outnumbering. 

The game isn’t balanced around outnumbering (literally all hard and soft CC is OP when outnumbering) so that’s a complete non-issue.  After the torment damage decrease BE and Abyssal Chill is also not an issue. Also any rev just spamming BE is an easy target and can’t do anything else.  It’s not even close to an optimal playstyle. 

Edited July 10, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[lodjur.1284]

23 minutes ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

The game isn’t balanced around outnumbering (literally all hard and soft CC is OP when outnumbering) so that’s a complete non-issue.  After the torment damage decrease BE and Abyssal Chill is also not an issue. Also any rev just spamming BE is an easy target and can’t do anything else.  It’s not even close to an optimal playstyle. 

Some are worse than others while adding less to other situations.

 

See Ancient Seeds for example

 

Banish is more or less only used for it and 1v1s (which are even less of a balance concern)

49 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

 

You are very right, BE is extremely easy to use, and it has a very low energy cost, but with the torment damage only increasing from when a target is immob'd or stunned, it doesn't feel too bad IMO. And I would say that BE being ranged is very crucial to Mallyx--at least non-Renegade builds--in order to help close the gap and to provide a degree of pressure while out of melee range. I can absolutely see your perspective because the skill is quite stacked, but it doesn't feel like the insta-win key like it used to before the torment rework. But hey, I accept that I could be wrong about this. After all, I haven't played it since the torment rework, so I am only speaking from the perspective of the receiving end. My previous suggestion pre-torment rework was to only have BE as one pulse (removing 3x boons) to reduce the synergy it has with Abyssal Chill.

Imo 

 

Call to Anguish/Frigid Blitz is generally enough to close a gap 

 

It's mostly that it's both super safe and very punishing (due to no stability meaning you're permanently stunlocked) since the people spamming it are usually herald (dragon invuln) with staff so focusing em is more or less pointless.

 

Reducing Banish Enchantment to 1 chill would make Abyssal Chill more or less a useless trait (like the 2 other traits already are). Completely reworking Abyssal Chill would probably solve a lot of the issues tbh.

49 minutes ago, Za Shaloc.3908 said:

I disagree that EtD lacks burst. It has extremely high torment output potential when comboing with other skills, and if you could more freely toggle it on to line up with burst/combos without having to worry about the disruption of a cast time and a potential interrupt, it would make it too oppressive and take away a lot of the counterplay. I do agree that it feels a bit disjointed from the rest of the core legend upkeep skills in that it is *not* instant-cast, but to me it still warrants it. Had you argued from the perspective of the previous EtD, I would have agreed with you. The current EtD disrupts the combat flow, but I think for good reason and for sufficient reward.

Imo the counterplay is both the 240 radius and the fact that while it can apply a lot of torment it's just high pressure, not burst. Meaning there's a lot of counterplay imo.

 

I'd say it could have a CD if it was instant (or an initial energy cost of 10) to prevent just flashing it

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

3 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Some are worse than others while adding less to other situations.

 

See Ancient Seeds for example

 

Yes that is the very nature of a game with many different abilities that do different things.  That doesn't take away from the point that Outnumbered situations are inherently unbalanced and that CC in general (yes ALL CC, even if some is better than others) become extremely strong when you can stack them against a target alongside 2+ players. 

[lodjur.1284]

1 minute ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Yes that is the very nature of a game with many different abilities that do different things.  That doesn't take away from the point that Outnumbered situations are inherently unbalanced and that CC in general (yes ALL CC, even if some is better than others) become extremely strong when you can stack them against a target alongside 2+ players. 

Stuff is flawed so we should never try to improve anything, ever. Great logic.

[Firebeard.1746]

On 7/6/2021 at 9:41 PM, SirTomato.3627 said:

Maybe 1s internal cooldown between healing per target hit?
I just tried these runes and healing they provide is absurdly high. You can just turn on "embrace the darkness" and semi-afk farming spot without fear that something will kill you. Same for group events as long EtD hitting few targets you become almost unkillable and using dodges and defensive abilities become very optional.

It would be fair if any profession has this kind of option but this feature available only to revenants that make me a bit salty. Runes last bonus usually a bonus and not that powerful that make it main purpose of getting them

 

I don't want to ruin people's solo Cairn runs even if I don't have the skill & gear to do them. So no. They have a niche use and I don't want to take that from others (even outside of Cairn. There's other places sustain can be incredibly useful).

Edited July 11, 2021 by Firebeard.1746

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

7 minutes ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Stuff is flawed so we should never try to improve anything, ever. Great logic.

1v1s are much more of a balance concern than outnumbered fights (counters are still fine within 1v1s as long as classes are operating within a certain range from each other).  There is literally no way for Anet to balance outnumbered encounters without giving the outnumbered person(s) a damage buff/extra defense/a defiance bar while outnumbered, but that's an insane suggestion

Nerfing abilities because they "overperform" in inherently unbalanced outnumbered gameplay is not the way

Edit: I also never said to never try to improve anything ever, but like usual you can only argue my points by putting words in my mouth.  Outnumbered fights will always be unbalanced regardless though so shouldn't be any sort of top priority balance concern when 1v1s, small group, and zerg balance exists.  Cheers mate ❤️

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[lodjur.1284]

1 hour ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

1v1s are much more of a balance concern than outnumbered fights (counters are still fine within 1v1s as long as classes are operating within a certain range from each other).  There is literally no way for Anet to balance outnumbered encounters without giving the outnumbered person(s) a damage buff/extra defense/a defiance bar, but that's an insane suggestion

Stuff like

 

Ancient Seeds

 

Signet of Humility

 

Banish Enchantment

 

are all obviously very weak when you're outnumbered and very strong when you're outnumbering.

Quote

Nerfing abilities because they "overperform" in inherently unbalanced outnumbered gameplay is not the way

Yes lets just make it so that the bigger numbers win by default, why even have fights?

Quote

Edit: I also never said to never try to improve anything ever, but like usual you put words in my mouth.  Cheers mate ❤️

 

That's essentially your argument though.

 

Also changing banish would improve or leave all of those aspects unchanged. Same as changing ancient Seeds or moa signet. 

 

Also Revenant doesn't need banish anymore, after the indirect buffs it received on May 11.

Edited July 11, 2021 by lodjur.1284

[LucianTheAngelic.7054]

6 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Stuff like

 

Ancient Seeds

 

Signet of Humility

 

Banish Enchantment

 

are all obviously very weak when you're outnumbered and very strong when you're outnumbering.

 

Again, ALL CCs are "Very strong when you're outnumbering."  That's the very real reality of what happens when you multiply the damage and CC output by adding additional players against a smaller individual or group.  This is the simplest of math and unless Anet adds some sort of absurd buff when outnumbered it's never going to be even close to balanced, even if everything is nerfed to hell in search of "perfect balance for the outnumbered player."

Using this logic, Thief and other classes and skills that excel at "+1" should just be nerfed and removed from the game as well.  In any sort of low man outnumbered situation burst potential from high dps power classes is far scarier than any of the skills listed above. 

 

6 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Yes lets just make it so that the bigger numbers win by default, why even have fights?

I didn't say that, you're putting words in my mouth again (per usual), but in for example a 2v1 assuming classes aren't extreme counters of one another and skill levels are the same, yes absolutely the outnumbered individual(s) should lose the majority of the time.  Obviously there will be different outcomes based on different skill levels, class compositions and interaction, etc. in real situations.  This is good.  I'm very much for outnumbered fights and seek them out as I frequently take on groups of 2-5 players in WvW solo.  I still don't think "a skill performing well when outnumbering" is a sufficient reason to nerf or remove a skill, which is what you're asking for. 

You also should clarify what you mean by "outnumbering."  Just saying "outnumbering" could mean anything from "2v1," "3v1," "3v2," "5v2," "5v4," "10v5," "20v10," "50v30" etc. etc.  Past a certain point, numbers are far less important than group coordination, composition, and skill and the skills listed above (such as BE) become considerably less impactful. 

6 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

That's essentially your argument though.

 

Also changing banish would improve or leave all of those aspects unchanged. Same as changing ancient Seeds or moa signet. 

 

Also Revenant doesn't need banish anymore, after the indirect buffs it received on May 11.

Still not what I said, but you're welcome to believe what you will.  It's clear to me you'd rather assume what I mean rather than actually try to understand the more nuanced versions that I actually believe. 

As for the May 11th patch, none of it was a "buff" to condi rev (of any flavor) in the slightest.  The Resistance changes are a straight nerf (no, resolution sucks in comparison to old resistance, even for condi renegade with RR).  The Torment changes are an overall net nerf to damage 70-80% of the time.  The one fringe case where "condi rev got stronger" is when the opponent gets chain CC'd by multiple people in a group or on downed bodies/people trying to revive.  I can understand why this might feel like a buff to you since you self admittedly "Play only WvW and with a small group" so ofc you'd see these benefits more from the coordinated CC of a small group on comms using CCs.  It's still a net nerf overall though even in small group situations and is  especially so when solo or against other coordinated groups that won't let you chain CC them as often.   But we've been over this before 2 months ago so this will likely just be wasted text. 

Edited July 11, 2021 by LucianTheAngelic.7054

[vilesoldier.9826]

6 hours ago, lodjur.1284 said:

Also Revenant doesn't need banish anymore, after the indirect buffs it received on May 11.

 

Don't mind me. Just want this framed for whenever this person tries to make an argument ever again

Edited July 11, 2021 by GeneralBM.5781

[lodjur.1284]

2 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Again, ALL CCs are "Very strong when you're outnumbering."  That's the very real reality of what happens when you multiply the damage and CC output by adding additional players against a smaller individual or group.  This is the simplest of math and unless Anet adds some sort of absurd buff when outnumbered it's never going to be even close to balanced, even if everything is nerfed to hell in search of "perfect balance for the outnumbered player."

Noone is advocating for nerfing everything to hell (or at the very least I'm not) just that if something is bad in most other situations and very strong at that then...

 

Also CC is the biggest problem in the game in every single situation. It is exactly why boonrip atm is too strong, since there's only 1 boon they care about when they spam it. 

 

No matter if we're talking 1v1, 5v1, 5v5, 5v15 or 15v15 CC is by far this game system's biggest weakness.

 

However it feels "slightly" off topic to have a debate on if/how/what should change about CC though. Probably better suited for general discussion/WvW/ all professions forum. 

 

Buffs for being outnumbered is a fundamentally idea that would make me quit the game. 

2 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

Using this logic, Thief and other classes and skills that excel at "+1" should just be nerfed and removed from the game as well.  In any sort of low man outnumbered situation burst potential from high dps power classes is far scarier than any of the skills listed above. 

They're quite unhealthy. 

 

I have never defensed high power burst, quite the opposite. Thankfully those builds are in the weakest state they've been in since I started playing.

 

Mobility+burst us still a blight upon the game though, just less so than in the past, thanks to a few amazing patches (Feb and may)

 

Thief is hardly design one wants to use to defend anything. 

2 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I didn't say that, you're putting words in my mouth again (per usual), but in for example a 2v1 assuming classes aren't extreme counters of one another and skill levels are the same, yes absolutely the outnumbered individual(s) should lose the majority of the time.  Obviously there will be different outcomes based on different skill levels, class compositions and interaction, etc. in real situations.  This is good.  I'm very much for outnumbered fights and seek them out as I frequently take on groups of 2-5 players in WvW solo. 

Nah. 

2 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

I still don't think "a skill performing well when outnumbering" is a sufficient reason to nerf or remove a skill, which is what you're asking for. 

 

Oh I agree with this. 

 

But it's definitively a contributing factor. 

 

If banish enchantment was otherwise an interesting skill then that would surely not be enough of a reason to want it reworked.

 

Truth is, the skill is pretty mediocre and niche beyond outnumbering, reworking it would open up for something else to take it's place.

 

Especially now that boonrips aren't more or less essential to being able to play condi. 

2 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

You also should clarify what you mean by "outnumbering."  Just saying "outnumbering" could mean anything from "2v1," "3v1," "3v2," "5v2," "5v4," "10v5," "20v10," "50v30" etc. etc.  Past a certain point, numbers are far less important than group coordination, composition, and skill and the skills listed above (such as BE) become considerably less impactful. 

Still not what I said, but you're welcome to believe what you will.  It's clear to me you'd rather assume what I mean rather than actually try to understand the more nuanced versions that I actually believe. 

 

2-5 v 3-30 (or so depending on enemy skill and current group size)

2 hours ago, LucianTheAngelic.7054 said:

As for the May 11th patch, none of it was a "buff" to condi rev (of any flavor) in the slightest.  The Resistance changes are a straight nerf (no, resolution sucks in comparison to old resistance, even for condi renegade with RR).  The Torment changes are an overall net nerf to damage 70-80% of the time.  The one fringe case where "condi rev got stronger" is when the opponent gets chain CC'd by multiple people in a group or on downed bodies/people trying to revive.  I can understand why this might feel like a buff to you since you self admittedly "Play only WvW and with a small group" so ofc you'd see these benefits more from the coordinated CC of a small group on comms using CCs.  It's still a net nerf overall though even in small group situations and is  especially so when solo or against other coordinated groups that won't let you chain CC them as often.   But we've been over this before 2 months ago so this will likely just be wasted text. 

Literally all of this doesn't matter.

 

Enemies can't have resistance anymore. That's really the most massive indirect buff imaginable, every fight with an enemy firebrand doesn't turn into 40 sec of waiting for 8 pulsing resistance fields or BE spam.

 

Enemy heralds are now somewhat punishable (still not really cause of blocks and invulns)

 

Even if the damage of condi rev had otherwise been nerfed by 25% (torment is roughly 50% damage and even if that had lost 50% of it's damage) the resistance change would've more than compensated.

 

Now damage feels if anything higher than before. 

 

I get higher damage numbers according to arc, I have an easier time both downing and keeping enemies down than before the patch. 

 

Seems like buffs to me. Everything else getting a nerf is a kind of buff. 

 

I don't even notice that I take more condi damage now without old resistance and I don't even play with any clear focused support. 

 

Organized groups feel easier to fight as well. 

 

Legit the only situation where it feels like a nerf is solo, even 2vX it feels slightly stronger.

 

Solo it feels weaker than before if you're fighting 1 or 2 "good" players as the enemy numbers get higher (and the realistic skilllevel to ever beat lower) new torment feels progressively stronger as cleave becomes more and more the determining factor solo.

 

Somewhere around the realistic 1v5 I'd say it's about even for anything above that new torment is probably stronger. 

 

Now obviously finding more than 5 players bad enough to die to a single player isn't very common, so overall solo I'd say it's a nerf.

 

For dueling it's ofc much worse, but that's very niche.

2 hours ago, GeneralBM.5781 said:

 

Don't mind me. Just want this framed for whenever this person tries to make an argument ever again

I don't see why it would be needed. 

 

There's nothing to rip beyond stab that really matters to condi rev post resistance.

 

Ripping stab can be useful in some situations, but is rarely worth the energy unless you're more than your enemy. 

 

Condi Rev doesn't need boon removal anymore than burnguard does?

[frareanselm.1925]

I tried Lord Hizen's build of condi reve with tormenting runes and the healing was tiny. Also "embrace the darkness" recieved a deadly strike after last nerf. It looks like Op is a reve hater, or has been owned in pvp by one.

[Buran.3796]

2 hours ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

I tried Lord Hizen's build of condi reve with tormenting runes and the healing was tiny. Also "embrace the darkness" recieved a deadly strike after last nerf. It looks like Op is a reve hater, or has been owned in pvp by one.

   That has no relation with tormenting runes, which aren't present in PvP.  I don't think that the runes are overpowered but I'm not opposed to a cut in performance to turn the prices dwon and prevent new players to spent absurds amounts of gold in such overrated runes. In general Rev works fine with cheap sub 2 gold coins hobo runes (as long as you avoid meme choices as hammer, staff and Ventari). 

[SirTomato.3627]

12 hours ago, Firebeard.1746 said:

I don't want to ruin people's solo Cairn runs even if I don't have the skill & gear to do them. So no. They have a niche use and I don't want to take that from others (even outside of Cairn. There's other places sustain can be incredibly useful).

Judging by youtube videos people doing solo Cairn even with berserker stats on almost every class. I doubt that these runes is a key to it.

 

2 hours ago, frareanselm.1925 said:

I tried Lord Hizen's build of condi reve with tormenting runes and the healing was tiny. Also "embrace the darkness" recieved a deadly strike after last nerf. It looks like Op is a reve hater, or has been owned in pvp by one.

Lord Hizen in his video also used all battle scars traits that is heal much more than tormenting runes. Indeed it feels tiny compared to battle scars. But this is only at first glance

These runes shines when you use it on 3+ enemies. Also it dont have any ICD and heal you per stack so even if you use as exampe "Sevenshot" you will heal yourself seven times per target hit. Plus EtD + other skills that apply torment plus battle scars will result pretty OP PvE combo. And it's not hard to execute it at all.

And its not niche as people mentioned above. It useful even in competitive PvE. As long as you know your rotation youll not lose alot of DPS by using tormenting runes instead of nightmare. Most of renegade's damage comes from torment and bleeding anyway.

[lodjur.1284]

2 hours ago, SirTomato.3627 said:

Judging by youtube videos people doing solo Cairn even with berserker stats on almost every class. I doubt that these runes is a key to it.

 

Lord Hizen in his video also used all battle scars traits that is heal much more than tormenting runes. Indeed it feels tiny compared to battle scars. But this is only at first glance

These runes shines when you use it on 3+ enemies. Also it dont have any ICD and heal you per stack so even if you use as exampe "Sevenshot" you will heal yourself seven times per target hit. Plus EtD + other skills that apply torment plus battle scars will result pretty OP PvE combo. And it's not hard to execute it at all.

And its not niche as people mentioned above. It useful even in competitive PvE. As long as you know your rotation youll not lose alot of DPS by using tormenting runes instead of nightmare. Most of renegade's damage comes from torment and bleeding anyway.

Oh this thread is about PvE....

 

There's plenty of stuff that gives amazing sustain in PvE any trait that gives % of dmg to healing/ barrier is much stronger than torment Runes sustainwise there and scales better. 

 

Is OP an NPC complaining about overpowered player sustain?

 

What exactly does OP  class as competitive PvE and how is tormenting runes overpowered there?