Marionette...the achievements are poorly designed

[raykor.6723]

One of the things that attracted me to this game at launch was the cooperative nature of the game design. No fighting over gathering nodes; everyone could use them. No fighting to tag a mob; everyone got full credit and loot. Open world events that everyone could join without needing to group.

 

The Marionette encounter itself is fun and challenging considering it's mostly public group without great organization. But the achievements are poorly designed. Specifically the ones the force people into a specific lane to get their missing personal achievement and discourages moving to another lane to help out the group. Good game design should always strive to promote and reward team play and not encourage selfish behavior. ANET, you can do better.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Lane selection is very well doable. In public there are enough players to have some leeway and most players are not in there for achievements anyway.

In private you will have to put yourself in the right subgroup before it completely fills up and the commander locks the groups.

 

I would advise to go for the public mission now every two hours and get as many achievements as reasonably achievable. Grab a balanced, hybrid build that can do DPS has some toughness and vitality to keep you alive and write down which lanes you completed the achievements in as the game does not track all of them for you. My Celestial ele build does wonders here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/92741-easy-condi-tempest-solo-build/page/2/?tab=comments#comment-1386296

Summon an earth elemental to tank for you and you can solo every lane if needed.

 

I never played the Marionette before this re-release and got the meta achievements completed on two accounts.

 

[Keymaster.7362]

To be honest, in silverwaste you get for every specific lane a achievement, in the chak gerent you get for every specific lane a achievmemt and in the Tarir Meta you also get for every specific lane a achievment. The same counts for Triple Trouple, Maws of Torment, Dragon's Stand, Dragonfall , et cetera.

 

But you need to do all this lanes only once for the achievments. After that you are always free do join the lane that needs the most help.

Edited July 18, 2021 by Keymaster.7362

[Vayne.8563]

The biggest issue with the marionette in my opinion is that the public option won't be there.  My guess is that the marionette will end up being a bastion of the harder core players gatekeeping casuals out, because they want to succeed.

The achievements as they stand aren't a problem as you only have to get them once. However, I feel like you have to get them all in a week, and that's a bigger problem.

[TheQuickFox.3826]

Yeah, it would be nice when public would just stay. But in the end it will be hard to get 70 players there every few hours.

 

The good thing of public is that you won't have to deal with crap like "Twisted Marinette | Scourge only | Ping 100LI" in LFG.

[Zavijah.2695]

I was also frustrated as well. 

In particular, I didn't like that if a lane failed, you had to be aware of which one had failed, and reposition to get a shot at the damage avoid mechanic you were specifically gunning for. 

I also didn't feel like the wording on avoid all damage from the marionette was clear enough, from reading achievement description. 

Fortunately, I have since done them all, and only need to fit in a Cobalt Wurm Vigil escort and that's that.  


 

[Jilora.9524]

Ya, really don't get the anet you can do better nonsense. You get achieves for each boss/regulator so you start off just playing and as you knock off achieves you narrow the scope. You see oh i have 4/5 bosses beat let me start off in lane 5 to finish off that achieve. Took me 4 trys to get that dodger achieve in lane 4 twice was cause lane 3 failed but I didn't want to screw lane 4 by leaving and going to 5. Is this really about you joined a private and the lane you wanted was filled up or something. Even if you get in the right lane beat your boss dodge all aoe it didn't count unless your lane severed the chain. That's to ensure not everyone sits in lane 1 and spreads out to get all achieves.

[raykor.6723]

@QuickFox  Thanks for the tips but my post said nothing about having trouble surviving the fight. In fact, I said it was a good design. My only complaint is the lane-specific achievement design that ends up creating tension instead of inspiring  cooperation. I like the topic of game design, and I can't help but take note of things that can be done better. For example, if I had a say, I would have designed the 'dodge the special attacks' achievement to required you to dodge 10 of the special attacks during the platform fights. Period. The five special attacks are fine as is and should be random—not tied to a specific lane—so that people don't choose a lane based on the attack easiest to avoid. Game design is fun but I think there should always be a consideration given to design that builds community.

 

@Keymaster Good point but those have been around for years so there is less rush to get them done. With the Marionette, we have just a week as most people will never do the 50-man private groups.

[DanAlcedo.3281]

It encourages players to try all fights instead of just doing, in this case, 20% of it. 

 

I call this good design. 

 

 

 

 

[Mikaq.7102]

Yeah it seems that everyone who wanted to get achievements, should have done whole week just public runs to get them. Marionette itself it is great fight and great fun and I don' even mind lane specific achievements. It is just that some of the achievements aren't giving enough information. For example Marionette Deregulator. You have to kill each warden once, but achievement itself doesn't tell which wardens you have killed and top of that if you try going lanes one by one, because of fail mechanic you may end up killing different warden. And that isn't only achievement which have been same way though not in Marionette achievements, but older ones like Auric Basin Skritt challenge achievement where you need to win each outpost challenge. That doesn't tell either which challenges you have won previously. 

 

It is just that if public instance actually will be gone after tomorrow, then getting certain achievements becomes much harder to get and top of that you have to start dealing elitist squads. 

[Asum.4960]

11 hours ago, TheQuickFox.3826 said:

Yeah, it would be nice when public would just stay. But in the end it will be hard to get 70 players there every few hours.

 

The good thing of public is that you won't have to deal with crap like "Twisted Marinette | Scourge only | Ping 100LI" in LFG.

 

Neither do you have to in LFG, just join a group that doesn't have any requirements, or should no such group exist, make one.

 

11 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

The biggest issue with the marionette in my opinion is that the public option won't be there.  My guess is that the marionette will end up being a bastion of the harder core players gatekeeping casuals out, because they want to succeed.

 

LFG is open for all and can't be gatekept. Blaming proficient players for wanting to play with other proficient/likeminded players in order to succeed and have their time valued over constantly failing because of or having to carry others, rather than just making your own group in accordance with your own standards is pure entitlement. 

[Dante.1763]

1 minute ago, Asum.4960 said:

 

Neither do you have to in LFG, just join a group that doesn't have any requirements, or should no such group exist, make one.

 

 

LFG is open for all and can't be gatekept. Blaming proficient players for wanting to play with other proficient/likeminded players in order to succeed and have their time valued over constantly failing because of or having to carry others, rather than just making your own group in accordance with your own standards is pure entitlement. 

Except the 50 man squad version is much harder due to the lower player count. That alone is why the public version should stay.

50 of anets average player wont be able to do marionette, at least ive never seen it succeed.

 

Place it On a rotating timer with dragonstorm, or placed out into lornars pass(via a portal to the instanced version near the og marionette.) During a time that competes with events like fire ele, or the jungle wurm. Leave the 2g daily bonus, and leave the squad version. Boom, everyones happy.

[Inculpatus cedo.9234]

Except the public version (less difficult) and the private/Squad version (more difficult) are not the same due to player cap. 

 

Sure, anyone can make a group for Marionette, any Raid wing, Boneskinner, etc., but (and especially with Marionette) keeping a group of non-extra proficient players together fail after fail is not that easy. 

[Asum.4960]

7 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Except the 50 man squad version is much harder due to the lower player count. That alone is why the public version should stay.

50 of anets average player wont be able to do marionette, at least ive never seen it succeed.

 

Place it On a rotating timer with dragonstorm, or placed out into lornars pass(via a portal to the instanced version near the og marionette.) During a time that competes with events like fire ele, or the jungle wurm. Leave the 2g daily bonus, and leave the squad version. Boom, everyones happy.

And I agree it should stay - what I don't agree with is the constant and misplaced antagonism in the community against a certain sub-set of players just trying to have fun playing with like- minded and skilled players, like they owe it to everyone else to do everything for them, from LFG creation, group management and organisation to carrying the content itself, when everybody else has those same tools, including improving as player to become proficient at the game themselves to making LFG's.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Dante.1763]

4 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

And I agree it should stay - what I don't agree with is the constant and misplaced antagonism in the community against a certain sub-set of players just trying to have fun playing with like- minded and skilled players, like they owe it to everyone else to do everything for them, from LFG creation, group management and organisation to carrying the content itself, when everybody else has those same tools.

True maybe, but ive yet to see one of those squads be victorious and theres so much salt in them when they fail >.<

A part of that has to do with the mechanics of marionette though, and it can auto fail if one platform ends up  empty, they really need to fix that. 😕

 

Edit: no i dont think the antagonism is eniterely justified, but neither is the antagonism that group of players spews forth on the average or casual playerbase of the game which is a much larger percantage of players and of which i lean to being a part of despite doing raids and such simply because the mindset is so different.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Danikat.8537]

I haven't seen the achievements being an issue so far, on either public or private maps. People who want an achievement put themselves in the lane for it (or ask if it's private and the commander isn't allowing players to move themselves) but they won't all want the same one at the same time so it usually balances out and there's always a few people who don't care because they've either done it already or aren't trying for it and they're happy to fill in the gaps.

[The Boz.2038]

21 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

LFG is open for all and can't be gatekept. Blaming proficient players for wanting to play with other

You have no idea how LFG works in this game, do you?
Or, for that matter, squads, player limits, and the 300gp barrier to entry.

 

[Dante.1763]

5 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

You have no idea how LFG works in this game, do you?
Or, for that matter, squads, player limits, and the 300gp barrier to entry.

 

Alot of us got the tag back when it was 100g, i know i did, and the catmander versions. XD

[Rasimir.6239]

11 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

a certain sub-set of players just trying to have fun playing with like- minded and skilled players

I have absolutely no problem with people prefering to play with like-minded players. In fact, that's exactly what I try to do, too.

 

What I do have a problem with is the "like-skilled" part, or more precise, the extremely vocal part of that community that talkes down to everyone not playing their way, ridiculing them and asserting that everyone not playing their way is unskilled and not worthy of rewards or even of just participating in content.

 

Whether you raid in this game or not is absolutely no indicator of whether you are skilled at playing this game or not. There are plenty of people around that don't raid for a variety of reasons but are easily more skilled than your average raider.

 

Play with whoever you want, but quit implying that that makes the people you play with more skilled than the rest of the playerbase.

[Asum.4960]

2 minutes ago, Rasimir.6239 said:

I have absolutely no problem with people prefering to play with like-minded players. In fact, that's exactly what I try to do, too.

 

What I do have a problem with is the "like-skilled" part, or more precise, the extremely vocal part of that community that talkes down to everyone not playing their way, ridiculing them and asserting that everyone not playing their way is unskilled and not worthy of rewards or even of just participating in content.

 

Whether you raid in this game or not is absolutely no indicator of whether you are skilled at playing this game or not. There are plenty of people around that don't raid for a variety of reasons but are easily more skilled than your average raider.

 

Play with whoever you want, but quit implying that that makes the people you play with more skilled than the rest of the playerbase.

 

32 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

True maybe, but ive yet to see one of those squads be victorious and theres so much salt in them when they fail >.<

So those players aren't more skilled, but without them everything fails and therefor they are managing to gate the content as a whole, simply by gating their own personal groups? 

 

Seems like a conflicting issue/complaint. 

 

And just as a note, the vast majority of down talking and ridiculing is people meme'ing and trolling as a way of venting their frustrations about constant demonization by the community at large (and so are many joke LFG requirements btw). Not saying that's a great way to go about it, but it is understandable considering the toxicity and hostility hardcore players are constantly exposed to on the forums and ingame for simply trying to play with like-minded players in a non-hostile, efficient and fun environment. 

 

33 minutes ago, The Boz.2038 said:

You have no idea how LFG works in this game, do you?
Or, for that matter, squads, player limits, and the 300gp barrier to entry.

 

Considering OW, and extremely casual Meta event auto attack zerging, is one of the, if not the most lucrative activity ingame, I'm not sure what your point is.

[The Boz.2038]

You not being able to suss out my point proves my point neatly, actually. Thanks 🙂

[Dante.1763]

37 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

 

So those players aren't more skilled, but without them everything fails and therefor they are managing to gate the content as a whole, simply by gating their own personal groups? 

 

Seems like a conflicting issue/complaint. 

 

And just as a note, the vast majority of down talking and ridiculing is people meme'ing and trolling as a way of venting their frustrations about constant demonization by the community at large (and so are many joke LFG requirements btw). Not saying that's a great way to go about it, but it is understandable considering the toxicity and hostility hardcore players are constantly exposed to on the forums and ingame for simply trying to play with like-minded players in a non-hostile, efficient and fun environment. 

 

Considering OW, and extremely casual Meta event auto attack zerging, is one of the, if not the most lucrative activity ingame, I'm not sure what your point is.

Due to the mechanics of marionette a 50 man squad is going to have alot more issues than a public version, ecspecially if the mechanics dictate that one platform ends up with entirely empty. Thats all my point is. That is why ive yet to see a squad version be victorious. The players can be the best in the game, but if the mechanics say no, then get wrecked.

 

Those hardcore players give out more toxicity in my experience than they receive back, i see it way often in map chat. Hell i was leading a squad in Dragonstand over rhe weekend and had a group of raiders start attacking me and another commander in map chat because we werent killing the boss as fast they would like. None of them wanted to take the tag though. Watching the entire map go after them was amazing to see.

 

Its that mind set of  "i raid so im better than all other players, and people who dont raid are casuals who need to bow to my godliness" that makes people despise the raid community. Want to change the perception of raids, change the attitude of its community first.

 

The ow meta auto attack is a meme in and of itself too, and you using it here while trying to say that raiders get more toxicity is laughable. Most players dont stand there and press 1. They do spam all the skills in no specific order though and dont rotate weapons which is a big part of getting numbers bigger.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Dante.1763

[Asum.4960]

27 minutes ago, Dante.1763 said:

Due to the mechanics of marionette a 50 man squad is going to have alot more issues than a public version, ecspecially if the mechanics dictate that one platform ends up with empty. Thats all my point is. That is ive yet to see a squad version be victorious. The players can be the best in the game, but of the mechanics say no, then get wrecked.

 

Those hardcore players give out more toxicity in my experience than they receive back, i see it way often in map chat. Hell i was leading a squad in Dragonstand over rhe weekend and had a group of raiders start attacking me and another commander in map chat because we werent killing the boss as fast they would like. None of them wanted to take the tag though. Watching the entire map go after them was amazing to see.

 

Its that mind set of  "i raid so im better than all other players, and people who dont raid are casuals who need to bow to godliness" that makes people despise the raid community. Want to change the perception of raids, change the attitude of its community first.

 

The ow meta auto attack is a meme in and of itself too, and you using it here while trying to say that raiders get more toxicity is laughable. Most players dont stand there and press 1. They do spam all the skills in no specific order though and dont rotate weapons which is a big part of getting numbers bigger.

How can that happen if each lane has it's 10 players joining through the portal? If a platform ends up empty, where do those two players go? Genuinely curious as I haven't seen that happen in organised groups.

 

I, and probably most hardcore players, have their own countless tales of bending over backwards to help, carry, teach and so on just to be met with hostile outbursts. After weeks to months to years of that, most simply retreat to gated groups where most players already know what to do. 

We can cast blame in circles all we want, but at the end of the day, Raiders and the like don't have any issues with sticking to themselves to avoid hostilities and completing any and all content in the game easily, other's do. 

So while I'm tired of arguing about if the chicken or the egg was first, it's pretty clear who is suffering from the community being split in this antagonistic mindset. 

To just expect Raiders to open up their groups and suffer constant hostility, attacks and failures when they are doing fine, to the benefit of others, therefor seems unlikely.

 

As for Raiders thinking they are better, I have not made that experience from the inside at least (outside of memes/poking fun, primarily as response to hostility/entitlement), where most players, including me, are of the mindset that Raids are fairly easy and that everyone could get to try and enjoy them if they really wanted to - being wistful about the irrational fear and hate of the content and it's community, because we truly wish more people could and would experience and allow themselves to enjoy the content we believe to be of the highest quality in the game. 

 

Raiders don't put thousands of gold and hours into guides and benchmarkes and rotation breakdowns etc. because they hate inexperienced players and want them to stay away so that their favourite content is less populated - that just doesn't make sense. 

 

Ofc many don't actually just auto attack but just press everything off cool down and such (which for most weapons actually is even worse), but that seems pretty much semantics. 

Considering many builds can pull 16-20k DPS fairly easily by literally just auto attacking (which is acceptable DPS for pretty much all content and could even clear Raids fairly easily), yet 90%+ of OW players do around 3-6k DPS (which is a fact supported by metrics), "accusing" players of auto attacking doesn't seem like an insult.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Asum.4960

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Asum.4960 said:

 

Neither do you have to in LFG, just join a group that doesn't have any requirements, or should no such group exist, make one.

 

 

LFG is open for all and can't be gatekept. Blaming proficient players for wanting to play with other proficient/likeminded players in order to succeed and have their time valued over constantly failing because of or having to carry others, rather than just making your own group in accordance with your own standards is pure entitlement. 

You mean squad leaders in private instances can't kick people out for any reason they feel like?  If that's not gate keeping what is it. 

See I don't care if you want to have an elite group or even an elitist group. But leave the public so the 90% can play too, that's all I'm saying. Because if they remove the public most of the groups won't be very welcoming.  Not after the first few fails anyway.

[Dante.1763]

19 minutes ago, Asum.4960 said:

How can that happen if each lane has it's 10 players joining through the portal? If a platform ends up empty, where do those two players go? Genuinely curious as I haven't seen that happen in organised groups.

 

I, and probably most hardcore players, have their own countless tales of bending over backwards to help, carry, teach and so on just to be met with hostile outbursts. After weeks to months to years of that, most simply retreat to gated groups where most players already know what to do. 

We can cast blame in circles all we want, but at the end of the day, Raiders and the like don't have any issues with sticking to themselves to avoid hostilities and completing any and all content in the game easily, other's do. 

So while I'm tired of arguing about if the chicken or the egg was first, it's pretty clear who is suffering from the community being split in this antagonistic mindset. 

To just expect Raiders to open up their groups and suffer constant hostility, attacks and failures when they are doing fine, to the benefit of others, therefor seems unlikely.

 

As for Raiders thinking they are better, I have not made that experience from the inside at least (outside of memes/poking fun, primarily as response to hostility/entitlement), where most players, including me, are of the mindset that Raids are fairly easy and that everyone could get to try and enjoy them if they really wanted to - being wistful about the irrational fear and hate of the content and it's community, because we truly wish more people could and would experience and allow themselves to enjoy the content we believe to be of the highest quality in the game. 

 

Raiders don't put thousands of gold and hours into guides and benchmarkes and rotation breakdowns etc. because they hate inexperienced players and want them to stay away so that their favourite content is less populated - that just doesn't make sense. 

 

Ofc many don't actually just auto attack but just press everything off cool down and such (which for most weapons actually is even worse), but that seems pretty much semantics. 

Considering many builds can pull 16-20k DPS fairly easily by literally just auto attacking (which is acceptable DPS for pretty much all content and could even clear Raids fairly easily), yet 90%+ of OW players do around 3-6k DPS (which is a fact supported by metrics), "accusing" players of auto attacking doesn't seem like an insult.

Ive seen it happen, they get thrown onto one of the other platforms, so one or two platforms will have 3-4players, and 2 will have two players, leaving one empty. Its an old issue that was present in the og marionette as well.

 

Not gonna respond further about the rest, its off topic: ive said my piece about it and my own experiences with that group as a collective.

 

Regardless theres a way to please both sides and both player groups, i hope anet does it and leaves the public version in or makes it an annual or semi annual event.