Legendary armor is... Locked for some people.

[Infusion.7149]

1 hour ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

Well I have proposed this in other threads on the subject. Leave raid armor to the raids and pvp and wvw armor to their modes, I never disagreed with that. I did get heated over the fact many people seem to just want to lock ow players out of a set, but I think the op post created an atmosphere of  give me envoy skins! without raids, and thats not want I want at all. I just want to work toward my own set , and I dont need fancy just functional.

Until EOD drops it is highly unlikely any openworld set (in part or in whole) will be added. You know why right? It's because there's zero ROI on it. Not to mention there's still broken (as in buggy) things on core and HoT maps to this day.

 

To top it off, the existing maps have massive amounts of legendary items and achievements tied to them already, whether it is legendary weapons, trinkets, the raid ring that involves a ton of funerary incense, HoT armor (please stop calling it raid armor when it is mostly HoT , one of my guildmates with 200+ ping because they live in Asia has been complaining about timegated provisioner tokens and chak eggs), or the pending amulet.

In addition, the enemies in EOD will scale to players mechanically (not just more HP) sort of similar to how PoF legendary bounties currently operate. This means the premise of an openworld (or more likely strike + openworld set) would be more palatable after it hits as opposed to existing openworld content where the answer to everything is just to throw more bodies at the problem. It's been stated that repeatability for rewards was a core tenant of EOD design as well as the strike design.

 

As far as right now:
If someone has trouble in terms of arthritis (common complaint) there's instances that don't require much movement and builds that don't require much complexity such as scourge or berserker. To top it off WvW in a minstrel build doesn't require much reflex gameplay especially on heal scrapper or scourge. Getting help with a specific raid is no different than getting help with Chalice of Tears JP. If you have 200 LI then this is even more true that hitting Escort / Gorseval / Spirit Run / Bandit Trio / Cairn / MO / KC / CA / River for example are rather low intensity at least on par with openworld legendary bounties or Drakkar/Tequatl.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Infusion.7149
add more examples

[Zalavaaris.5329]

3 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

Until EOD drops it is highly unlikely any openworld set (in part or in whole) will be added. You know why right? It's because there's zero ROI on it. Not to mention there's still broken (as in buggy) things on core and HoT maps to this day.

 

To top it off, the existing maps have massive amounts of legendary items and achievements tied to them already, whether it is legendary weapons, trinkets, the raid ring that involves a ton of funerary incense, HoT armor (please stop calling it raid armor when it is mostly HoT , one of my guildmates with 200+ ping because they live in Asia has been complaining about timegated provisioner tokens and chak eggs), or the pending amulet.

In addition, the enemies in EOD will scale to players mechanically (not just more HP) sort of similar to how PoF legendary bounties currently operate. This means the premise of an openworld (or more likely strike + openworld set) would be more palatable after it hits as opposed to existing openworld content where the answer to everything is just to throw more bodies at the problem. It's been stated that repeatability for rewards was a core tenant of EOD design as well as the strike design.

 

As far as right now:
If someone has trouble in terms of arthritis (common complaint) there's instances that don't require much movement and builds that don't require much complexity such as scourge or berserker. To top it off WvW in a minstrel build doesn't require much reflex gameplay especially on heal scrapper or scourge. Getting help with a specific raid is no different than getting help with Chalice of Tears JP. If you have 200 LI then this is even more true that hitting Escort / Gorseval / Bandit Trio / Cairn / MO / KC / CA for example is rather low intensity at least on par with openworld legendary bounties or Drakkar/Tequatl.

For my arthritis I use a combination of motrin and a 12 button gaming mouse. 

[Astralporing.1957]

4 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

I do not expect you to argue for everythin,g that would be silly, i expect you however when asked whether something is a problem because it has the same design problems as mentioned earlier you would say "yes,..." or "no, i forgot to add this or this piece of info" or "no, i had not considered that"

In this case, the answer for skyscale is "i just never thought about skyscale, and when you brought that up i genuinely did not think that it could possibly affect anyone that does not already play that content already, so it's not worth mentioning" (i still doesn't think it does, btw)

 

Content locking is worth mentioning generally only when it does lock someone out.

 

4 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

I meant bad as in for the envoy set it does not really looks like it will work.

In case of Envoy set? No, not really. The only way you can make it less desirable is by introducing an alternative.

 

4 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

Also their are some more that i can think of , making things seem more accesible for example. I'm guessing their are even more i can't think of .

When dealing with content-locked reward, there are basically 5 methods:

1. Retain the lock, but reduce the content requirement (move it from requiring a massive content investment into requiring a shallow one)

2. Introduce an alternative acquisition method (make the same reward available also by other means)

3. Change acquisition method to be more open ("remove" the lock)

4. Introduce an alternative reward that may replace the original one, and offer it through a different acquisition method (i.e. for Envoy it would be making a new LS/OW based legendary armor set with its own, new, unique skin)

5. make the reward directly less desirable to people that do not play the content (usually works only in the planning phase, does not work all that well for already existing rewards - i.e. you might have offered a raid reward only raiders would care about, but once Envoy set was introduced, you can't really make a legendary armor to be less desirable to non-raiders)

 

I'm not really sure if there can be more options than that.

Wait, there is (but technically it is a variation of 2):

6. Make the reward tradable (gen1 weapon approach).

 

Each of those methods have their pros and cons, and those also tend to vary depending on specific situation.

 

4 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

Yes, but theirs also not really shallow dipping in the hot metas etc. im not saying raids dont play a big part in the trinket, im saying that open world also does.

15 gerent events (or less, because you can get more than 2 eggs per event if you're lucky - last gerent i got 6) is not comparable to 150/300 raid boss kills.

 

4 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

Your metric seems to subjective to me, people who like a specific type of content will feel like that part is "easy". But the parts they dont like as timeconsuming. for example for you the raid part was probably the most timeconsuming, and for me that was provisioner tokens, and for my friend its chack eggs because he hates TD.

Provisioner tokens are just massively annoying mat sink coupled with timegate (that could have been designed far better). They are not a lock to anyone however.

And yes, non-raiding PvE players find that one equally annoying, trust me. As for eggs, see above.

 

4 hours ago, yann.1946 said:

Also this metric would just result in saying that all legendaries are gold based legendaries (because the fortune part seems like the biggest block for most people for most legendaries.)

Fortune is a block, but is not a lockout. Obtaining wealth is a path every single player walks on since the moment they left the initial introductory instance.

[Fuchslein.8639]

2 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

There's a difference between having a content die because it is unrewarding, and content surviving only thanks to a singular reward. If raids absolutely need exclusivity on PvE legendary armor to survive (and can't just be okay with decent level of non-exclusive rewards), it means that this content is simply not worth doing. It's only the armor that is worth it.

 

Of course, If that original argument is true and raids indeed do need that exclusivity. But that's not an argument I have made.

 

Which brings us back to the point that most raiders I know won't care if exclusive pve players can grind their raid armor or even buy it for an apple and an egg in the gem store (which in principle they can already do by being able to buy wings and grind wvw and pvp without having any real skill). Because even then there would be enough people, from all sides, who will complain about it here.

What is going on here in the forum is absolutely no representation for any "community" within gw2.

 

For me personally. I have nothing against exclusive drops and achievements. PVE is full of them and now here are a handful of pve'ler complain that a niche-modi has one or two exclusive things that they, for whatever reason, can not get. For me, this shows more what kind of mindset these people have than that a mode has a special reward that it needs or doesn't need.

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

8 hours ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Nope, not how that works. But again, that's wayyyy off topic for this thread. 

Let not allow them to change color then , if they have the easy gear  ? So they cannot miss-match with other cloths ?

And they have to grind for a thousands days in other contents that unlock the posibility to dye them ?

Or

They cannot have the shoulders - 2200 Arena Rating ?

Edited August 10, 2021 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[yann.1946]

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

In this case, the answer for skyscale is "i just never thought about skyscale, and when you brought that up i genuinely did not think that it could possibly affect anyone that does not already play that content already, so it's not worth mentioning" (i still doesn't think it does, btw)

Thats a way better response, like i said it impact a small group of people. But generally this is the same group of people who do more parts of the game and "just do it" if the game ask them. Its a little thing that skews perception a lot i guess.

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Content locking is worth mentioning generally only when it does lock someone out.

I disagree on a small note, namely that i feel people in general should be consistent about their  beliefs.

So if they consider content locking intrinsicly a problem, then they should consider all forms of content locking a problem.

Otherwise theirs something more, some caveat, that should be given. In this case the "it locks people out who want it"

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

In case of Envoy set? No, not really. The only way you can make it less desirable is by introducing an alternative.

Or by kittening up template interactions with legendaries. /s 😛

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

When dealing with content-locked reward, there are basically 5 methods:

1. Retain the lock, but reduce the content requirement (move it from requiring a massive content investment into requiring a shallow one)

2. Introduce an alternative acquisition method (make the same reward available also by other means)

3. Change acquisition method to be more open ("remove" the lock)

4. Introduce an alternative reward that may replace the original one, and offer it through a different acquisition method (i.e. for Envoy it would be making a new LS/OW based legendary armor set with its own, new, unique skin)

5. make the reward directly less desirable to people that do not play the content (usually works only in the planning phase, does not work all that well for already existing rewards - i.e. you might have offered a raid reward only raiders would care about, but once Envoy set was introduced, you can't really make a legendary armor to be less desirable to non-raiders)

 

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

I'm not really sure if there can be more options than that.

Wait, there is (but technically it is a variation of 2):

6. Make the reward tradable (gen1 weapon approach).

Honestly, this would probably sway a portions of people.

But i can feel the complaints already brewing. Raiders get monopoly on selling this etc.

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Each of those methods have their pros and cons, and those also tend to vary depending on specific situation.

 

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

15 gerent events (or less, because you can get more than 2 eggs per event if you're lucky - last gerent i got 6) is not comparable to 150/300 raid boss kills.

You yourself said that they where quite a nuisance. Also so my next point about the perception of what is "effort" changes from person to person.

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Provisioner tokens are just massively annoying mat sink coupled with timegate (that could have been designed far better). They are not a lock to anyone however.

The fact that they are or are not a lock is not really relevant in the question whether the envoy set is better classified as a Hot set vs a raid set.

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

And yes, non-raiding PvE players find that one equally annoying, trust me. As for eggs, see above.

Where talking next to eachother though. My only point is that because what is needed is both raiding and hot participation in substential degrees, it is technicly a Hot set. 

People call it a raid set because the part they remember is the raid part for a plethora of different reasons, but they forget the multittude of other things they had to do. (DS for example)

9 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Fortune is a block, but is not a lockout. Obtaining wealth is a path every single player walks on since the moment they left the initial introductory instance.

The fact that they are or are not a lock is not really relevant the the question of how legendaries should be classified.

[Zalavaaris.5329]

15 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Let not allow them to change color then , if they have the easy gear  ? So they cannot miss-match with other cloths ?

And they have to grind for a thousands days in other contents that unlock the posibility to dye them ?

Or

They cannot have the shoulders - 2200 Arena Rating ?

That would be nice.

 

I'm sure you understand the smart kitten answer was due to your hyperbole. You obviously understand the concept. 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Fortune is a block, but is not a lockout. Obtaining wealth is a path every single player walks on since the moment they left the initial introductory instance.

...and so is improving at the game by understanding its mechanics and using them in encounters that require it. And can't forget that "because I don't like it" also isn't a lockout.

 

Edited August 10, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Astralporing.1957]

 

1 hour ago, yann.1946 said:

I disagree on a small note, namely that i feel people in general should be consistent about their  beliefs.

I am. Of course, i also do not believe in black-and-white world, and generalizing issues. A solution for one specific case might not necessarily work in a similar (but still different) one. Something that may be a problem in one place, may bot be in another. Trying to force a world in simple boxes just does not work, and only lead to more problems than you started with.

 

Quote

So if they consider content locking intrinsicly a problem, then they should consider all forms of content locking a problem.

Otherwise theirs something more, some caveat, that should be given. In this case the "it locks people out who want it"

There's always some caveat. You just not always see it or consider it important to you.

 

Quote

Or by kittening up template interactions with legendaries. /s 😛

That would be reducing desirability for everyone, not just for non-raiders. Something like that just makes everyone unhappy.

 

Quote

Honestly, this would probably sway a portions of people.

But i can feel the complaints already brewing. Raiders get monopoly on selling this etc.

This is actually a solution i like the least.

 

Quote

You yourself said that they where quite a nuisance.

Due to how convoluted the system is. It's not hard, it does not require any sort of  significant effort, it's just a nuisance of inventory management.

 

Quote

Also so my next point about the perception of what is "effort" changes from person to person.

That's obviously true. Still, if someone thinks that up to 15 chak gerent events is anywhere in the same scale of effort as 150/300LIs, i guess they should not have any problem with  replacing raid kills with gerent events. With one gerent replacing 10 raid boss kills... And yet the arguments i see from raiders side are the exact opposite - about how easy and effortless events like gerent are compared to raid kills.

So, which one it is?

 

Quote

The fact that they are or are not a lock is not really relevant in the question whether the envoy set is better classified as a Hot set vs a raid set.

You don't have to play HoT for those. You just need to get to vendors in HoT maps (which are next to waypoints). And if you don;t want even that, there are vendors in all main cities (and you get some tokens from raid CM weekly achieves as well, if i remember well)

 

Quote

Where talking next to eachother though. My only point is that because what is needed is both raiding and hot participation in substential degrees, it is technicly a Hot set. 

And i am saying that using the very same principle, Aurora and Vision cannot be classified as LS trinkets anymore, because they require gift of battle.

 

Quote

People call it a raid set because the part they remember is the raid part for a plethora of different reasons, but they forget the multittude of other things they had to do. (DS for example)

The fact that they are or are not a lock is not really relevant the the question of how legendaries should be classified.

People call them a raid set because it is raids that lock them away from the huge majority of PvE population. Not those other things. And because it is in raids where you spend huge majority of the effort for the whole set.

 

The only people that call it a HoT armor (or PvE armor) are raiders. And usually only when they want to make it a point about PvE not needing another. Because otherwise it suddenly becomes a raid armor that belongs to raiders alone, and if you want it you'd better raid yourself.

Edited August 10, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

8 hours ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

That would be nice.

 

I'm sure you understand the smart kitten answer was due to your hyperbole. You obviously understand the concept. 

I understand that people blame the casuals , for not trying enought and that why we don't have enought Raids .

And some1 is telling them that we should implant easy Raids , they try to "sell " any excuse (its not hard you are not trying , buy with your gold some Runs) .

I am simply giving the Devs more "data" 😛

Their game , their money , wile i wont loose anything behind the schreen 😛

I am just having "fun"

 

whats next ? new Raiders will be using LI and it will like a poison for the next 2-3 years  ? Raider will try to befriend the new population and they will blame the Devs  , for stopping Raids , in 1-2 years ? 😛

Edited August 10, 2021 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

7 hours ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

Basically yes

Same skins , different stats (exotic) like in WoW ? 😛

Edited August 10, 2021 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Zalavaaris.5329]

2 minutes ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

Same skins , different stats (exotic) like in WoW ? 😛

No..... different skins

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

13 hours ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

No..... different skins

Not enought Devs for that 🙂

And not enought population to justifie new gear 😛

We are talking about restart here , without needed anything more than a math guy to calculate the hp of the boss and the damage ti will do to players:P

 

For 6 years , you goofed it

 

edit: (release content as Raid portals > "they" get skins>nerf the liquid gold> they go away to the next > install public  version after 2 months > they dont "meet each other" ?

 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

14 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Sure, but that just shows what Vayne said - that those layoffs have nothing to do with how casual or hadcore (un) friendly the game is. They were a result of out-of-game company decisions.

They were a result of ANet floundering with other projects while sacrificing GW2's development.

[Astralporing.1957]

13 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

They were a result of ANet floundering with other projects while sacrificing GW2's development.

Yes, exactly. Which has nothing to do with claims that started this whole derail: that GW2 is failing due to being too casual (and that layoffs are a sign of this).

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

6 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

Yes, exactly. Which has nothing to do with claims that started this whole derail: that GW2 is failing due to being too casual (and that layoffs are a sign of this).

No, they had played a role in this.  ANet ceased focusing on the game 100%.  They had less content delivery for GW2.  We'd likely not be having this discussion here if they kept focus on GW2 and developed its core systems like they should have. (Proper tutorials, expanding on WvW & PvP systems, stepping  stones for  instanced content from dungeons to fractals, to strikes, to raids.) We'd have all of that already if ANet wasn't split in focus until the layoffs.  We're only just getting alliances and a better stepping stone with strikes and challenge modes for that content in EoD.

[Astralporing.1957]

13 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

No, they had played a role in this.  ANet ceased focusing on the game 100%.  They had less content delivery for GW2.  We'd likely not be having this discussion here if they kept focus on GW2 and developed its core systems like they should have. (Proper tutorials, expanding on WvW & PvP systems, stepping  stones for  instanced content from dungeons to fractals, to strikes, to raids.) We'd have all of that already if ANet wasn't split in focus until the layoffs.  We're only just getting alliances and a better stepping stone with strikes and challenge modes for that content in EoD.

Actually, what we've lost was primarily not those things you mentioned, but an expansion. Which might have indeed included some of the things you mentioned, but (based on the past two expansions) it is something i don't really believe in.

 

Still, we're back again to the original point. GW2 did not run into problems due to being too casual (or at least i don't see anything that would justify such assumption). It ran into problems because they wasted a ton of resources on unrelated projects.

[Ultramex.1506]

Jeez look at this thread pages, good thing I wasn't interested in the skin and got over my fear of WvW to get legendary armors, otherwise I'll be here all day.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Ultramex.1506

[Xanadrine.4352]

7 hours ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

For my arthritis I use a combination of motrin and a 12 button gaming mouse. 

I crushed my scaphoid in my hand at the wrist, they didnt diagnose it soon enough because it is hard to diagnose, necrosis set in and the bone died along with damage to the surrounding tissues and nerves. My right hand that i use with my mouse has motor damage and little reflex to nerve impulse. I can tell it to do something but it usually wont. 

[Vayne.8563]

9 hours ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

For my arthritis I use a combination of motrin and a 12 button gaming mouse. 

I wish I could take motrin, but due to heart disease my doctor recommends against it.

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

17 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If this mode really needs that legendary armor draw in order to survive, it means something is very, very wrong with that content, and you really should be aiming to fix it, instead of trying to buy off other players in order to conceal those underlying issues.

 

If what you saying is true, it's not people that are asking for alternate legendary sets that are killing raids. It's either the raiders themselves, or raid design that does that.

There aren't any issues in raids... But there are some hurdles to overcome while entering raid gamespace for the first time. Those hurdles maybe in the form of improving aspects of gameplay like :

1) Transitioning from skill clicking to hotkeys.

2) Improved reaction times.

3) Crafting or collecting improved stats gear exotic/ascended.

4) Improving dps for the class/build.

5) Doing training runs and get familiar with raid encounters.

6) Time investment for training, improving playstyle,dps,....

7) [optional in most cases] resource investment for crafting gears, food, util, craft levels.

 

How does a new player who never heard about raids get attracted to the content? When he notices someone with a cool animating raid armor in lobby or in an open world meta event, he/she would be motivated to get that for themselves and hoping that motivation is enough to strengthen their resolve to overcome the hurdles I listed above.

 

At the same time pessimistic ppl will try their best to drive away ppl who plan on working toward that goal .. and sometimes toxic garbage ppl will try their best to drive away new raiders from the game mode.

 

I've mentioned most of the hurdles a new raider has to overcome and those are not issues... Those are the things that get a player from current level to next and introduce a whole new world of enjoyment.

 

 

Now to your point of who is killing raids:

It's ppl like you who shout your heart out and scare off new raiders from entering the game mode and try their best to kill off all motivating factors towards the game mode. Why do you guys go out of your way to kill the gamemode? Or do you find some kind of satisfaction when your loud noise in forums force anet to take such decisions to kill the gamemode? Why not use your energy and time to guide and motivate new players into raids rather than scaring them away trying to play forum warrior?

 

Edited:

To keep a game mode alive, u need two things and one is more important than the other.

1) attract new players to the game mode either by nice shiny rewards like the only animated cool looking legy Armor or force them to try out the mode and get a taste of that specific game mode 

2) retain existing players who populate the mode by either introducing new content or more new shiny rewards(or gold) for the existing old content compared to the rewards u get from doing some mind numbing shiny baubles farm.

 

Once the new player gets a taste of the content, get enticed in getting that shiny Armor or seduced by the gold income of doing such content, they stay in the game mode and keep it alive. Give the game mode the fighting chance by not scaring away ppl .. let them taste the mode and let them look at all the available benefits of doing that mode ... If u cut off that fighting chance, and fail to give a taste to new raiders, no new content will be released for the mode and no attractive rewards will be introduced for the mode either and it'll just die slowly...

Current fighting chance is the shiny legy Armor pls don't take it away. There would be unintended consequences reflecting in various parts of the game. 

 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[Killthehealersffs.8940]

7 hours ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

There aren't any issues in raids... But there are some hurdles to overcome while entering raid gamespace for the first time. Those hurdles maybe in the form of improving aspects of gameplay like :

1) Transitioning from skill clicking to hotkeys.

2) Improved reaction times.

3) Crafting or collecting improved stats gear exotic/ascended.

4) Improving dps for the class/build.

5) Doing training runs and get familiar with raid encounters.

6) Time investment for training, improving playstyle,dps,....

7) [optional in most cases] resource investment for crafting gears, food, util, craft levels.

 

How does a new player who never heard about raids get attracted to the content? When he notices someone with a cool animating raid armor in lobby or in an open world meta event, he/she would be motivated to get that for themselves and hoping that motivation is enough to strengthen their resolve to overcome the hurdles I listed above.

 

At the same time pessimistic ppl will try their best to drive away ppl who plan on working toward that goal .. and sometimes toxic garbage ppl will try their best to drive away new raiders from the game mode.

 

I've mentioned most of the hurdles a new raider has to overcome and those are not issues... Those are the things that get a player from current level to next and introduce a whole new world of enjoyment.

 

 

Now to your point of who is killing raids:

It's ppl like you who shout your heart out and scare off new raiders from entering the game mode and try their best to kill off all motivating factors towards the game mode. Why do you guys go out of your way to kill the gamemode? Or do you find some kind of satisfaction when your loud noise in forums force anet to take such decisions to kill the gamemode? Why not use your energy and time to guide and motivate new players into raids rather than scaring them away trying to play forum warrior?

So for 6 years , when people come to the forums to whine  KP-LI , damage meters are toxic and scare other people away ?

While ingame the LFG for 6 years its all rainbow and shineshine ?:P

Forcing themm to "get good " backfired , TREMENDOUSLY ...like they wont future support you  .....kind of thing ...

 

Raids are created in mind to be killed with 6k DPS in 10 min .

And not in 4 min with 20k

Even Colin used to say that he enjoys to play Raids with his Core Warrior , in order to mitigate this problem

 

 

You created the new generation of Raider that will keep your work , and now lets see how they effect Strikes .

 

 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Killthehealersffs.8940

[yann.1946]

9 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

 

I am. Of course, i also do not believe in black-and-white world, and generalizing issues. A solution for one specific case might not necessarily work in a similar (but still different) one. Something that may be a problem in one place, may bot be in another. Trying to force a world in simple boxes just does not work, and only lead to more problems than you started with.

Yes, but this statement does not apply to the conversation. We where not talking about a general solution, the conversation for me atleast was what designprinciples cause problems,

Quote

There's always some caveat. You just not always see it or consider it important to you.

And that caveat when discussing what the problem is should ALWAYS be given. otherwise people just sprout bs next to eachother.  

Quote

That would be reducing desirability for everyone, not just for non-raiders. Something like that just makes everyone unhappy.

Thats why i used the  /s. It was a joke 😛

Quote

This is actually a solution i like the least.

understandable, it does not solve the problem of people feeling left out.

It is however a solution you can use if you wanna sway using the more base emotions.

Quote

Due to how convoluted the system is. It's not hard, it does not require any sort of  significant effort, it's just a nuisance of inventory management.

 

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That's obviously true. Still, if someone thinks that up to 15 chak gerent events is anywhere in the same scale of effort as 150/300LIs, i guess they should not have any problem with  replacing raid kills with gerent events. With one gerent replacing 10 raid boss kills... And yet the arguments i see from raiders side are the exact opposite - about how easy and effortless events like gerent are compared to raid kills.

So, which one it is?

Let makes this clear, you said that they where also a pain for non-raiders. that was your argument.

I personally do think the Hot part is substential enough to warrant consideration.

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You don't have to play HoT for those. You just need to get to vendors in HoT maps (which are next to waypoints). And if you don;t want even that, there are vendors in all main cities (and you get some tokens from raid CM weekly achieves as well, if i remember well)

 

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And i am saying that using the very same principle, Aurora and Vision cannot be classified as LS trinkets anymore, because they require gift of battle.

Well you can't really claim that unless you would argue that gift of battle requires substential gameplay, which would crumble all things you said earlier about the acceptability.

Also i dont classify them as LS trinkets, more OW trinkets or HOT LS/OW and POF LS/OW trinket tespectivly

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People call them a raid set because it is raids that lock them away from the huge majority of PvE population. Not those other things. And because it is in raids where you spend huge majority of the effort for the whole set.

Exactly my point, most people forget the amount of OW investment and thus associats the thing whit what bottlenecks them.

Notice however that that is a pretty substential selection bias at play here, and id rather avoid these. 

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The only people that call it a HoT armor (or PvE armor) are raiders. And usually only when they want to make it a point about PvE not needing another. Because otherwise it suddenly becomes a raid armor that belongs to raiders alone, and if you want it you'd better raid yourself.

You called it that yourself. Also i call it hot armour because its a more acurate description. I dont have to goal to keep ow from a leg set. 

What i do think is that 

A)The envoy skin should be kept as is know.

B)pvp and WvW should get a uniques skin <- this can be interpreted as blocking ow set based on the fact that this seems unlickely, but thats not the point.

C)Whether i would have raided or not, i don't consider the present situation a problem. But i dont consider mode locking a problem in general. This is because we a base disagreement about what is good for the game.

D) i dont mind an open world set, i would prefer it to be a specific expansion set then though, a fractal set seems like a bad idea for example;

 

Edit: to be more precise for C), i feel like the potential negative experiences get outwayed by the potential positives.

Edited August 11, 2021 by yann.1946

[Crystal Paladin.3871]

1 hour ago, Killthehealersffs.8940 said:

So for 6 years , when people come to the forums to whine  KP-LI , damage meters are toxic and scare other people away ?

While ingame the LFG for 6 years its all rainbow and shineshine ?:P

Casual didnt create this broken system 😛

 

When I posted my comments here in this thread, I recollected all I had gone thru during the journey to aquire my first set of legy Armor.

 

When I first stepped into raiding, I felt uncomfortable too when most lfg gated by kp,li... But I didn't whine about it... I know full well I need to respect other's time and energy. If as a new player I join a 50li group or even a 10 li group, without knowing the encounter, without knowing my class, build, do 1k dps in fights, I'd be placing a huge stress on the squad and also increase the chance of failure and squad wipes.

Li and Kp are not to scare ppl away, but to filter ppl to ensure success... 

 

You might argue that a player might be good even without meeting those kp,li req... But is it advisable to trust every lfg joinee and risk time and energy of 9 other players?

 

From 0li to 10li, u do these content with guild, friends, training groups.... Then u meet the outside world... Else if u feel like ure entitled to join a 200+ li group when u first started raiding, ure not respecting others , their time, effort, energy and ure just selfish.

 

During those 6 years of supposedly not so sunshiney, not so rainbowey, were there not guilds, training groups and friends? 

 

Before I started raiding I never knew such a term even exists. One day I noticed some guy running around with raid armor and it was so cool... I asked my friends about it and then they shared some info about raids... They themselves were new to the game and maybe a year more familiar with gw2 than I was back then. That motivated me towards this journey and I still like it and I hope more would get attracted to it like I did. 

Imagine if my friends scared me away from the game mode when the idea was still budding in my mind... The worst possible outcome , I'd be joining the other ppl who fight vigorously and find ways to scare off more ppl away from the gamemode... It's a miracle that I tried out raids and stick to it instead of getting demotivated by hurdles and other ppl with agendas against raids. 

 

This current li kp system is inevitable unless anet takes a diff approach like matchmaking or... Selecting the team comp based on some interactive instance...

 

 

The interactive instance could be something like this:

 

1) ppl queue in raids specifying their role(s) in the lfg tool which is somewhat similar to the PvP queue tool.

2) the lfg system puts every single player in their own isolated instance and prepares a task for them to complete based on the role they selected in the tool.

3) a healer would get a green ally dummy which gets damaged periodically or by some swinging axe or flying missiles... Healer shd dodge those mechanics and at the same time heal the dummy(coz dummy won't dodge) healer is qualified for a raid encounter if the dummy stays alive at the end of the instance and managed to dodge x number of damaging mechanics.

A dps player queued in the tool would get an enemy dummy which moves and has breakbar and some damaging mechanics which a player shd dodge and move to certain dynamic spot periodically to get heals at the same time dps the dummy to 0hp. Player qualified if dummy is killed within certain amount of time.

....

...

 

Finally the damage from the boss encounter and the total hp of the boss within the specified time should be met by the healing power and total dps of squad mathematically and its set as minimum req before starting encounter... Or something like that.

This is just at the top of my head... This idea could have certain flaws that I haven't thought about... But if anet can make such filtering criteria for ppl who queue for raids, kp, li gates will reduce to minimal....

 

But kp, li filters are the only thing we got right now which works in most cases... Instead of outright trying to kill raids pls find a way around it and keep it alive is all I can emphasize in this thread... If ppl who like to support raids fail to make their voice heard in threads like these (21 pages) , ppl who are hell bent in killing this game mode will easily convince anet to take decisions to kill and bury the mode quickly.

 

 

If you want to try your best to change the li kp system of filtering raid players, please for the love of God try a diff approach, create a new thread specific to that and try  convincing anet to implement a new system in place that does a better job or atleast near close good job of filtering along with custom squads for raids. Don't try to blame it on the content and try to kill it.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Crystal Paladin.3871

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

How does a new player who never heard about raids get attracted to the content?

The same way they get attracted to all other content - by hearing about it, trying it out, and realizing they like it. If that last part is not there, you have a problem. Sure, you can still try to buy off those players with shinies, but that is just painting the dying grass green.

 

1 hour ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

I've mentioned most of the hurdles a new raider has to overcome and those are not issues... Those are the things that get a player from current level to next and introduce a whole new world of enjoyment.

You think that way. Most players do not seem to agree on the enjoyment part however.

 

1 hour ago, Crystal Paladin.3871 said:

Now to your point of who is killing raids:

It's ppl like you who shout your heart out and scare off new raiders from entering the game mode and try their best to kill off all motivating factors towards the game mode. Why do you guys go out of your way to kill the gamemode? Or do you find some kind of satisfaction when your loud noise in forums force anet to take such decisions to kill the gamemode? Why not use your energy and time to guide and motivate new players into raids rather than scaring them away trying to play forum warrior?

If you really think that i have enough influence to do anything about raid popularity, i should probably feel complimented - but i think that you significantly overestimate my capabilities in that regard. And significantly underestimate the dislike majority of players have for the type of gameplay you prefer.