Legendary armor is... Locked for some people.

[Astralporing.1957]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

Sure, how does it change anything about what I said?

Nothing. It's still a non-argument regardless of me saying anything about it.

 

Quote

No, it doesn't. There's nothing wrong with having ""endgame"" rewards that require effort, especially when those rewards don't give "better players more power".

It is however a problem when you limit those endgame rewards not by effort, but by gameplay style.

 

Quote

It's not power creeping anyone or anything, it doesn't lock anyone out of any content. There's nothing wrong with existance of limited rewards for limited content

In general, you;re right. And you would be right if that was all there was to it. Unfortunately, it's not about limiting specific rewards to specific content. It's about limiting reward categories by gameplay.

In short, it's okay to restrict Envoy set to raids. It's not okay to make whole legendary armor category require massive investment into a niche content meant for only a minority of players. But then you should already know that, it's not the first time it is being mentioned.

 

Quote

same as there's nothing wrong with super rare infusions.

Well, depends on how rare they are (but then, discussion about item rarity is something completely different). If you meant however that it is okay to tie special visual effect infusions to specific content, i won't content that one - as long as there's enough different infusions in different content to satisfy everyone (and in infusion case it is generally not that bad at all).

 

Quote

No, nobody is locked out of it. If someone doesn't want to learn the content, they're not locked out of it, they make that decision for themself.

Lockout does not preclude people being technically able to make different choices.

 

I.e. Imagine something being restricted based on, say, whether someone voted Democrat or not. You could technically claim that it's not really any restriction - after all, if someone doesn't want to vote Democrat, they are not locked out of it, nobody forces them to be Republican after all - they can make that decision for themselves. Don't you think that this kind of argumentation sounds ridiculous? And yet this Democrat/Republican lockout is actually far better than the raid one, because it locks out far less people percentagewise.

 

It is a lockout. One that segregates people by what they find fun, and rewards one specific kind of fun over the others.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Tails.9372]

25 minutes ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

and in infusion case it is generally not that bad at all

 

Except it is. Every cosmetic infusion tied to an open world drop is put behind a massive RNG wall with no other content related option to acquire the infusion in question while all other cosmetic infusions that are available as a RNG drop from their respective content can also be bought from the currency related to the content in question.

[Astralporing.1957]

2 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

 

Except it is. Every cosmetic infusion tied to an open world drop is put behind a massive RNG wall with no other content related option to acquire the infusion in question while all other cosmetic infusions that are available as a RNG drop from their respective content can also be bought from the currency related to the content in question.

I did say that the drop rate issue is something for completely separate discussion. I was talking here only about the content they are hidden behind, not about the drop chances.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

10 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

All that talk, and it still doesn't change the fact that most players simply do not find raids fun. And no amount of support Anet might have been willing to give to that content would have changed that.

Cry me a river.

I, and many others, don't find PvP fun but you don't see me, or anyone else really, on the forums saying that there should be an alternative way to get PvP skins and legendary items in custom matches.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Xanadrine.4352]

20 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Cry me a river.

I, and many others, don't find PvP fun but you don't see me, or anyone else really, on the forums saying that there should be an alternative way to get PvP skins and legendary items in custom matches.

You are not getting it, every mode cept the biggest one in the game has a legendary set. Why are people like you so adamantly against it? How does it effect you? it dont, you still play the game modes you want, cutting off the majority of players from getting legendary armor because ..well in my day we had to walk to school uphill...isnt a good reason, esp now that there is a legendary armory and all that goes with it. this game is created around LWS and open world, raids are an after thought. And I have nothing against raids I think there should be raids for people that want to do them. A game needs to have a little something for everyone. Just saying a true pve legendary set has no effect on you unless its just being mean spirited about it.

 

[ArchonWing.9480]

I mean, I don't like doing Open World much. Does that mean I'm locked out of Astralaria and similar legendaries?

 

And what about Aurora? I don't want to do that jumping puzzle.

 

Even if they were to give alternatives to it, it would be something different. And it really should be.

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

36 minutes ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

You are not getting it, every mode cept the biggest one in the game has a legendary set. Why are people like you so adamantly against it? How does it effect you? it dont, you still play the game modes you want, cutting off the majority of players from getting legendary armor because ..well in my day we had to walk to school uphill...isnt a good reason, esp now that there is a legendary armory and all that goes with it. this game is created around LWS and open world, raids are an after thought. And I have nothing against raids I think there should be raids for people that want to do them. A game needs to have a little something for everyone. Just saying a true pve legendary set has no effect on you unless its just being mean spirited about it.

 

I'm sorry to break it to you, but raids are and always will be PvE content.  They're the truest form of PvE content as it actually tests player's skill and organization.

Riddle me this.

I distinctly recall a statistic somewhere that a majority of players don't even use exotic gear and don't bother changing their builds and gear at all, so hat use is legendary armor for people who don't change their builds? These people don't even experiment, most of them get builds from Metabattle or their friends at best, and at worst, want to shoehorn their build into a team play situation. Why would these casuals who can't even put forth the level of commitment (It's very minimal compared to other games, mind you) need legendary armor?  When would these same casuals actually utilize any of the functionality of legendary gear?   Do they have multiple toons they'd like to outfit with two or three vastly different builds and require the convenience of being able to shift any piece to any attribute combination?  Well exotics and ascended have them covered for cheaper and only take up one or two inventory slots.

 

  

36 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I mean, I don't like doing Open World much. Does that mean I'm locked out of Astralaria and similar legendaries?

 

And what about Aurora? I don't want to do that jumping puzzle.

 

Even if they were to give alternatives to it, it would be something different. And it really should be.

Honestly, I can get behind skinless, cheaper legendary-level items. Make the cost only the cost of every ascended insignia on the market or something and leave the skins as  either generic ascended or basic white gear.

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Sir Alymer.3406

[Dante.1763]

24 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

 

  

Honestly, I can get behind skinless, cheaper legendary-level items. Make the cost only the cost of every ascended insignia on the market or something and leave the skins as  either generic ascended or basic white gear.

 

I know OPs post is asking for envoy armor, but lots of us who want a PVE set that doesnt include raids would be fine with one that lacks a unique skin.

 

Do i want envoy armor? yes. I want the light set, so im working towards it.

 

Do i want the heavy and medium envoy skins? Nope, i hate how they look, so a way to turn the current ascended armor into a legendary quality item would be a massive plus.

 

And well, anyone who didnt like a particular envoy skin(Who also doesnt enjoy pvp or wvw) would be able to gain from that. Without taking -Anything- from raiders at all. Envoy skins would still be raid armor.

 

This comes up in every single thread too. Sure not everyone would be happy without a unique skin, but im sure more would be, and again, it takes nothing away from raids.

[Sobx.1758]

1 hour ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

You are not getting it, every mode cept the biggest one in the game has a legendary set.

You're not getting it -no matter how hard you'll try to pretend pve isn't pve, it will still be pve. Currently each mode -pve, wvw and pvp- have access to legendary armor set. You just have to play the content for the rewards. Like, you know, in pretty much any game.

[Astralporing.1957]

26 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

I'm sorry to break it to you, but raids are and always will be PvE content.  They're the truest form of PvE content as it actually tests player's skill and organization.

They are also dead. Because they are soooo interesting to huge majority of players that devs decided to drop any work on them due to too low population.

 

The truest form of PvE. That most pve players do not play, and will not play. Right.

 

The truth is, they are not "truest form" of anything. They are just a content that only a minority finds interesting. And nothing more than that.

 

26 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Riddle me this.

I distinctly recall a statistic somewhere that a majority of players don't even use exotic gear and don't bother changing their builds and gear at all, so hat use is legendary armor for people who don't change their builds? 

You'd be surprised. Yes, there's a part of players that indeed acts that. They might find the use in the ability to share one set among all the characters, and to have free skin transmutations to be useful. Besides, who can say no to glowy aura? Remember, that originally legendaries had no QoL at all - they were just exotics and the only difference was in the skins. And yet they were highly popular even then. If anything, i'd say that more people pursue legendaries as part of fashion wars than for QoL.

 

Additionally, you forget that there is a number of casuals that do change their builds and experiment with them. If anything, they are probably even more infamous in Raid circles, because when doing that, they often pursue completely different goals than Raiders do. You certainly did not think that the stories about nomad heal shout warriors (or similar) entering high-end content were about hardcore players, did you?

 

26 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

These people don't even experiment, most of them get builds from Metabattle or their friends at best

No, that's most of the Raiders, actually. Out of the many raiders i have known, only 2-3 actually did experiment with their build son their own. Others took builds from someone else, with many not even understanding why those builds were built that way (or, say, which things can be safely changed, and which cannot)

 

26 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

, and at worst, want to shoehorn their build into a team play situation. Why would these casuals who can't even put forth the level of commitment (It's very minimal compared to other games, mind you) need legendary armor? 

Why would raiders do? From what i 've been told over the years, you don;t even need ascended, to raid, much less legendaries.

 

Noone needs legendaries. It's always want, not need, that makes people pursue them. And they want them for multitude of reasons, many of which do not have anything to do with their base Qol.

 

26 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

When would these same casuals actually utilize any of the functionality of legendary gear?

At the point where they'll equip one on a second char, or want to change the skin? Or at the moment they will flash someone with on-draw effect? (The wings effect on heavy set is really cool, if you haven't noticed).

 

26 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

   Do they have multiple toons they'd like to outfit with two or three vastly different builds and require the convenience of being able to shift any piece to any attribute combination? 

Many do indeed have multiple toons - some have more than most raiders.

 

26 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Well exotics and ascended have them covered for cheaper and only take up one or two inventory slots.

That's a hardcore player talking that looks at everything through the perspective of efficiency alone. casuals are casual because they usually do not think that way at all.

 

26 minutes ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Honestly, I can get behind skinless, cheaper legendary-level items.

That removes most of the reasons why someone would pursue legendaries, though.

 

 

[Forum Moderator.8657]

Please keep the Forum respectful to eachother's opinions

[Obtena.7952]

On 8/2/2021 at 5:30 AM, Maiku Larzon.7150 said:

Hey all. Just wanted to hear what other people think about locking the Perfected Envoy armor behind raids. (my opinion, best looking armor) 

 

I have the problem that i am a assassin/Berserker Soulbeast, so no one wants me in their raids. They tell me to switch to druid and get healer runes. 

It makes me sad that i am forced to change everything i have worked for, to get a armor set... 

Am i the only one that feels like this or does any1 else? Fell free to tell me. Cause if i am not alone, Anet might change if enough of us speaks up 🙂

I think Anet is missing a big opportunity to rethink content rewarded from raids. The exposure of various raid rewards (including leg. armor) wasn't ever that large an audience to begin with. I can't help to think from a business perspective, if Anet had anticipated the lack of popularity of raids from the beginning, they would have created alternate paths to getting Leg. Armor (because what sense does it make to create a whole system of rewards that so few people are interested in the methods to obtain?)

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Honestly, I can get behind skinless, cheaper legendary-level items. Make the cost only the cost of every ascended insignia on the market or something and leave the skins as  either generic ascended or basic white gear.

I once suggested fractal legendaries, but nobody seemed to like that.  I think Fractals are a pretty good midway but I guess they're not popular enough.

 

I also suggested specialized legendaries for accomplishing some feats. Maybe like introduce new jumping puzzles that can't be portal'd or teleported to.

 

But at the end of the day, it should probably establish some kind of recognition for dedication or specific kind of feat. That being said there's no point in recognizing this for general Open World. Why should Anet bother to incentivize content that they know people will mostly play anyways? That's why I find the comments about "nobody plays raids" to be funny. It means the legendary raid skins actually mean something.

 

And certainly more imaginative types than me can come up with a better system, but I am almost certain that people will be complaining about how a legendary does not cater to their playing style regardless.

 

I dunno. I find it very hard to sympathize since I played this game for 7 years without any Legendaries. Incidentally, I then made the Legendary WvW Backpiece which was a huge waste of everything. I just find desiring Legendaries to find meaning in content to be a pretty shallow approach, and legendary envy-- even worse. I am almost certain that people wouldn't even know what to do if they got one as it is pretty underwhelming given the template system.

 

Every Legendary for me has been a particular project. And if you're not having fun and kept awake at night because you don't have it; what's the fun in that?

 

Also most players don't have that many legendaries (or at all) because they are smart enough to realize it's just a gold and time sink. For those of you looking for real QoL, you are infinitely better off saving up 4k instead to buy the Permanent Bank Express. Put that in a Shared Inventory Slot and that blows any number of legendaries out of the water. That's what I did before I got any Legendary item.

 

 

Edited August 7, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Astralporing.1957]

7 minutes ago, Obtena.7952 said:

I think Anet is missing a big opportunity to rethink content rewarded from raids. The exposure of various raid rewards (including leg. armor) wasn't ever that large an audience to begin with. I can't help to think from a business perspective, if Anet had anticipated the lack of popularity of raids from the beginning, they would have created alternate paths to getting Leg. Armor (because what sense does it make to create a whole system of rewards that so few people are interested in the methods to obtain?)

There was nothing originally about raid armor being the only one. That came only later, after it took them nearly 2 years to design the envoy sets.

 

I suspect they actually did plan to make more sets, but simply gave up on this. I am also quite sure that if they knew how the raid story would end, that content (and stuff locked behind it) woud not have ended up being so narrow in accessibility. If it would even have been released at all.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Zalavaaris.5329]

The raids are for sale too. If you look in the LFG there are several groups that will carry people through it for gold. Gold is a good metric for open world pve so there you go. Do open world, get gold, pay for raids, get armor. Everyone wins.

[Astralporing.1957]

13 minutes ago, Zalavaaris.5329 said:

The raids are for sale too. If you look in the LFG there are several groups that will carry people through it for gold. Gold is a good metric for open world pve so there you go. Do open world, get gold, pay for raids, get armor. Everyone wins.

If it was about single kills, then it might have been a barely acceptable solution (due to the lack of any other), but we're talking about 150 kills for the first set, and 300 for the second and third. That would be what, 7500 gold for the first set, double that for subsequent ones, for a total of 37500 for all three? (assuming 50 gold per kill - which might be highly inaccurate, as i have no idea how high the price is currently. I do know that at some point it was actually higher than that). And additionally we'd be supporting the mode that is tied to the issue while doing it. That does not sound to me like a winning solution (except for sellers, of course).

Edited August 7, 2021 by Astralporing.1957

[Zalavaaris.5329]

14 hours ago, Astralporing.1957 said:

If it was about single kills, then it might have been a barely acceptable solution (due to the lack of any other), but we're talking about 150 kills for the first set, and 300 for the second and third. That would be what, 7500 gold for the first set, double that for subsequent ones, for a total of 37500 for all three (assuming 50 gold per kill - which might be highly inaccurate, as i have no idea how high the price is currently. I do know that at some point it was actually higher than that). And additionally we'd be supporting the mode that is tied to the issue while doing it. That does not sound to me like a winning solution (except for sellers, of course).

Correct, it would be a lot of gold. But it is no longer locked behind skill or group commitment. It is 100% personal with a gold pay wall and if people don't want to raid then they will need to pay up. That's the cost of entry. People can't say they don't want to raid due to either skill, lack of enjoyment of the content, etc. etc. and THEN say that it's too expensive to pay for. People want to get legendary armor without doing the work for it. So make some gold doing world bosses or whatever open world pvers do and buy it. I've heard time and time again that it isn't about lack of skill and that people don't care if it's still difficult to get as long as they can get it in open world pve and not have to raid. So prove it.... get the money and buy it. Gotta do SOMETHING legendary I guess.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Zalavaaris.5329

[Tails.9372]

51 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Why should Anet bother to incentivize content that they know people will mostly play anyways?

 

Except most people don't, unless the content is part of some "new hot event", has currently the best time to gold rate or is the climax of one of the big HoT meta chains, the maps are even more lifeless than the WvW ones (with the only real exception being Istan back then but A-Net did a pretty good job running this one into the ground). Especially if you subtract the players that are only there because a collection they are currently working on tells them to. For anything else there is no actual point in engaging with the content at all.

 

 

51 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

That's why I find the comments about "nobody plays raids" to be funny. It means the legendary raid skins actually mean something.

 

Quite the opposite, it means that "nobody" cares about this "type" of content and even something like "legendary raid skins" are not enough to break the disstain most people have towards it.

Edited August 7, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Xanadrine.4352]

1 hour ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Honestly, I can get behind skinless, cheaper legendary-level items. Make the cost only the cost of every ascended insignia on the market or something and leave the skins as  either generic ascended or basic white gear.

So its about the look, not the legendary. Thats hypocritical, because personally, it could be plain jane set legendary and I would be happy. Because the fact is legendary sets come with major quality of life issues that should be available to all. I dont want your envoy set I dont even like the look. Its not about the look for me its about the QoL. Not about vanity.

 

55 minutes ago, Forum Moderator.1637 said:

Please keep the Forum respectful to eachother's opinions

I have been trying to. Its just plain that there is a great divide in this game where the minority feel superior to the majority because they got something the regular players will never have. I didnt think this game was supposed to be about elitism, it was supposed to be about casual gaming where there wasnt a divide. Most people play overworld, yet they are left out of a great system in the form of achievements collecting and crafting legendary armor and the QoL that comes with it because they play the game the main way it was advertised. And to see that its about the cosmetic look makes me sad, people dont want us to have their precious envoy look. I dont care about the look I would like a set tied to open world and even dungeons. Since the story and open world is so big in this game, and by far the most played. 

[ArchonWing.9480]

11 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

Quite the opposite, it means that "nobody" cares about this "type" of content and even something like "legendary raid skins" are not enough to break the disstain most people have towards it.

Well, people sure care a lot about those skins they have a "disstain" about.

[Infusion.7149]

59 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I once suggested fractal legendaries, but nobody seemed to like that.  I think Fractals are a pretty good midway but I guess they're not popular enough.

 

I also suggested specialized legendaries for accomplishing some feats. Maybe like introduce new jumping puzzles that can't be portal'd or teleported to.

 

But at the end of the day, it should probably establish some kind of recognition for dedication or specific kind of feat. That being said there's no point in recognizing this for general Open World. Why should Anet bother to incentivize content that they know people will mostly play anyways? That's why I find the comments about "nobody plays raids" to be funny. It means the legendary raid skins actually mean something.

 

And certainly more imaginative types than me can come up with a better system, but I am almost certain that people will be complaining about how a legendary does not cater to their playing style regardless.

 

I dunno. I find it very hard to sympathize since I played this game for 7 years without any Legendaries. Incidentally, I then made the Legendary WvW Backpiece which was a huge waste of everything. I just find desiring Legendaries to find meaning in content to be a pretty shallow approach, and legendary envy-- even worse. I am almost certain that people wouldn't even know what to do if they got one as it is pretty underwhelming given the template system.

 

Every Legendary for me has been a particular project. And if you're not having fun and kept awake at night because you don't have it; what's the fun in that?

 

Also most players don't have that many legendaries (or at all) because they are smart enough to realize it's just a gold and time sink. For those of you looking for real QoL, you are infinitely better off saving up 4k instead to buy the Permanent Bank Express. Put that in a Shared Inventory Slot and that blows any number of legendaries out of the water. That's what I did before I got any Legendary item.

 

 

The thing with a potential fractal legendary is the gold sink would have to be even more huge (say 1 mystic tribute per piece or something as ridiculous as that) as fractals are some of the most active and profitable content in the entire game. Also fractals don't require an expansion and adding it to fractals is a poor business decision as a result (although a ring would probably be worthwhile it still isn't a sound business decision).

It's more likely they are added to the new EOD Strikes while incorporating openworld EOD meta collections or something akin to that as a way to incentivize people to buy the EOD expansion and provide replay value. Of course it is more likely the EOD Strikes give something toward the Aurene styled legendary weapons.

[Xanadrine.4352]

1 minute ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Well, people sure care a lot about those skins they have a "disstain" about.

No we really dont, maybe some do. but i know a lot like me that dont care we want to do a legendary journey for us, and for the QoL the legendary armory brings. So you can keep your skins I dont like the look of them anyway, I have prettier stuff in the wardrobe now. Most of us want an legendary achievement and crafting line for us in overworld. The world we play in most of our gaming time.

[ArchonWing.9480]

7 minutes ago, Infusion.7149 said:

The thing with a potential fractal legendary is the gold sink would have to be even more huge (say 1 mystic tribute per piece or something as ridiculous as that) as fractals are some of the most active and profitable content in the entire game. Also fractals don't require an expansion and adding it to fractals is a poor business decision as a result (although a ring would probably be worthwhile it still isn't a sound business decision).

It's more likely they are added to the new EOD Strikes while incorporating openworld EOD meta collections or something akin to that as a way to incentivize people to buy the EOD expansion and provide replay value. Of course it is more likely the EOD Strikes give something toward the Aurene styled legendary weapons.

 

I don't think fractals being available to all is a problem. They could just require items that require the expansion, if that's really an issue.

 

  

6 minutes ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

No we really dont, maybe some do. but i know a lot like me that dont care we want to do a legendary journey for us, and for the QoL the legendary armory brings. So you can keep your skins I dont like the look of them anyway, I have prettier stuff in the wardrobe now. Most of us want an legendary achievement and crafting line for us in overworld. The world we play in most of our gaming time.

 

You are severely overestimating the QoL of legendaries. Just saying.

 

Like I said above, if you want to throw thousands of gold away for QoL, there are better options.

Edited August 7, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Xanadrine.4352]

1 minute ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

I don't think fractals being available to all is a problem. They could just require items that require the expansion, if that's really an issue.

Theres no life in it, its boring. Why cant people understand its so much more fun to travel the world on a massive journey killing different things and collecting ,rather than go into a fract that is a small static zone. No story no nothing just boring. I made a comparison before between skyscale and griffon and when I said griffon was a journey and skyscale a mindless grind thats what I mean. Griffon make me love it because of all the story involved, because it felt like i was actually part of something. A journey like that should feel epic in the end, after you have traversed the world, conquered foes, explored and discovered things and collected what you need to craft your very own set.  

[Infusion.7149]

1 minute ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

I don't think fractals being available to all is a problem. They could just require items that require the expansion, if that's really an issue.

Envoy armor requires HoT openworld (chak eggs, reclaimed plates, auric ingot, map currencies, etc on top of the collection items) , fractals (Volcanic, Snowblind, Aquatic), and raids. If there's a new PvE armor it would likely be from EOD strikes (so raid lite), EOD metas / activities / JPs , and possibly a few fractals as an afterthought rather than the main portion of it. When I say "fractal legendary" I mean that it won't be the main portion of a new armor as there would have been one added long before EOD if deemed necessary.