Legendary armor by pve exploration [Merged]

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

3 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

 

Ofc. there is, iirc only the legendary PvP backpack has anything that can be called "requiring some sort of mastery over the game mode" and even that heavily depends how you define "mastery over the game mode". Everything else (in regards to gear at least) might raise some assumptions but ultimately "proves" nothing. If all one does is flipping camps and fighting veteran creatures (like oftentimes suggested when people ask for "easy ways to get legendary armor") or watching a movie while being afk in sPvP then I wouldn't exactly expect that person to have much "mastery over the game mode".

 

 

 

Which is exactly why it doesn't prove anything.

 

 

 

Sure but that doesn't seem to be that much of a deterrent given how often I see players complain about it.

If we're going to get into philosophical debates over what constitutes mastery, I'm out because that's just dumb.

Objectively, it requires you to understand the game and complete it in some regard, be it Core, PoF or HoT content.  Throw the list of things one would need to do to get any legendary item at someone who's completely new to the game and they'll be confused as to what half the stuff required even is let alone being able to complete it all.

Because a minority can buy or afk their way through the content doesn't remove what legendaries area supposed to be, it just means people are lazy and those methods need to be patched.

[Tails.9372]

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

If we're going to get into philosophical debates over what constitutes mastery, I'm out because that's just dumb.

 

Then don't bring up vague terms without any concrete meaning. Even by your "Objectively..." neither the sPvP nor the WvW gear requires "mastery over the game mode" and if it was as, like you claim, "their intent is" then it sure does not reflect it in the systems they set up otherwise they would have been more strict about it. But luckily they did clarify what they ment by that during their Guild Chat in which they said "you don't have to be able to excel at these things but just go in there, participate" (aka. a participation tropthy) with the stated goal to make them more accessible as they felt like not enough people were going after them.

 

 

2 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Because a minority can buy or afk their way through the content doesn't remove what legendaries area supposed to be, it just means people are lazy and those methods need to be patched.

 

"a minority can" as if that takes effort, everyone can and many players do as it plays exactly into "what legendaries are supposed to be". They're not going to "fix it" because everything is still in line with their stated goal for these items. The issue first and foremost comes from players reading something into "mastery of the game" that's not in line with the developers stated intentions (which is partly their own fault as their stated goal for legendaries conflicts with their stated goal for raids in general if you also look at the "raid set" as "the PvE set" which is what many people do).

Edited August 25, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Epsilon Indi.2031]

1 hour ago, Tails.9372 said:

 

Then don't bring up vague terms without any concrete meaning. Even by your "Objectively..." neither the sPvP nor the WvW gear requires "mastery over the game mode" and if it was as, like you claim, "their intent is" then it sure does not reflect it in the systems they set up otherwise they would have been more strict about it. But luckily they did clarify what they ment by that during their Guild Chat in which they said "you don't have to be able to excel at these things but just go in there, participate" (aka. a participation tropthy) with the stated goal to make them more accessible as they felt like not enough people were going after them.

 

 

 

"a minority can" as if that takes effort, everyone can and many players do as it plays exactly into "what legendaries are supposed to be". They're not going to "fix it" because everything is still in line with their stated goal for these items. The issue first and foremost comes from players reading something into "mastery of the game" that's not in line with the developers stated intentions (which is partly their own fault as their stated goal for legendaries conflicts with their stated goal for raids in general if you also look at the "raid set" as "the PvE set" which is what many people do).

I can't find the actual quote on the old forum archive and I'm not about to attempt to find it on the GW2 Reddit, so I'm just going to use some deductive reasoning and warp back to 2012 where back then, the content was open world and dungeons and legendary weapons required the following:

Map completion of both WvW and PvE

Gift of battle for WvW from 500 Badges of honor that were also (at the time) difficult to come by.
A gift from a specific dungeon which tokens can only be acquired via said dungeon.

 

Dungeons back then were the endgame.  Doing any paths solo was a big accomplishment.  Doing it fast and regularly meant you were basically the equivalent of the crowd that does fractals and raids today.

Legendary items back then required you to play basically all the content in the game except for PvP, actually.  Or just swipe your CC and buy them off the TP.  ANet moved away from such things and made the gen 1 legendary weapons a bit more accessible for people who play just PvP and WvW with reward tracks. (You can skip the dungeons with the pvp or wvw reward track for that dungeon) and removing WvW map comp from the requirements for Core Tyria map completion.  WvW was only 5% of the total but took the longest due to how skewed the servers were back then.  The choices were tag up and amass an army or pray your server's color changes which wasn't intuitive or fun to do at all especially since com tags were soulbound and cost 100g each.  However, this isn't the same as raids.  Raids don't have a group actively trying to stop you from taking objectives you need to capture to climb that stupid JP inside and get the vista or point of interest.  The only thing that gates someone from r aids is their own willingness to form their own groups or find people.

Now let's look at some more recent legendary items.

Ad Infinitum? Mastery over fractals.  The collection was actually difficult when it first came out and only got  easier with the powercreep and certain mechanics being changed in the required fractals.

Aurora & vision has  the requirements for you to do living world season 3 & 4 metas and completing certain achievements to gather pieces for the precursor before taking the usual legendary item crafting route. Sure, the content isn't as hard as raids, but it does prove a mastery over season 3 & 4.

Coalescence?  You need to be in a group that kills Dhuum and does basically all of wing 5. 

The WvW and PvP  legendary items?  (Ring and amulet) require kills and  wins respectively.

Armor for PvP and WvW and most of the gen 2 weapons were  rushed.  Content for the Gen 2 weapons was dropped in favor of big material sinks  so they could release them once every LW content update.  Armor for PvP and WvW was a hasty decision to placate people who only play both those modes so they could get their prestigious, stat-swapping armor there.

The most recent legendary though?  The new amulet we don't even have access to.  It has a steeper requirement than even Aurora or Vision.  It's basically all the content  Aurora and Vision required as a 'return to' recap of living word season 2, 3, & 4.  It shows that you did the content on the maps and overcame the story once more.

This isn't a philosphical argument.  It's completely objective that the original goal of legendary items is to show your mastery over the content or set of content in the game it's tied to and ANet continues to introduce legendary items with that goal in mind when they can and aren't crunched for time

[Captain Kuro.8937]

8 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Aurora & vision has  the requirements for you to do living world season 3 & 4 metas and completing certain achievements to gather pieces for the precursor before taking the usual legendary item crafting route. Sure, the content isn't as hard as raids, but it does prove a mastery over season 3 & 4.

 

Lets do that for "Legendary armor by pve exploration"

It can be used to prove to other people , you have "learned" the game.

 

(maybe people who have gathered it or any other "special Mentor set", can  become a "beacon" for an auto LFG mechanic , or they get "invited" 2 hour>30 min public version .

It slowly evolves into private Suit Armor  and invite people from your "friendlis-followerst" +Guild .

 

 Or , it begs you to let it "evolve" (Pokemon) , so you can move to Tier2 groups , while in Off-hours/if your group is stuck for 10 min it "adapts" , looking downwards but you getting ore rewards)

Edited August 25, 2021 by Captain Kuro.8937

[hash.8462]

Since the main problem seems to be the involvement, wouldn't it be more appropriate to tie a "new armor" to the accumulation of AP?

As already hinted in another thread, once the hellfire or radiant armor skins are completed you can select a recipe (light/mid/heavy) and you can forge it, that would give you one armor at 30k ap and a second at 36k (you have to get the third one by normal means).

That wont even be a PvE armor but a cross-mode one, and I doubt anyone can reach 30k ap just by playing casually.

This is just an idea of course, don't have to be exactly that way.

Edited August 25, 2021 by hash.8462

[Gehenna.3625]

17 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

The intent with legendary items is to prove your mastery over the game or a game mode.  This is why Gen2 legendary weapons and all future legendary equipment can't be traded.

That is definitely not true. Legendary items are not about mastery over game modes. Which game mode do you need to master for Nevermore for example? Sure, I had to do fractals for it (which I don't care for) but I didn't need to master them. I just did the bare minimum and it all revolved around tier 1.

 

What about Aurora? You need to "master" LS3 farming maps. There is nothing difficult about that. It just takes a while.

 

I'd say that legendaries are more about time spent and draining your resources than anything else. Sure, some are about raiding like the raid armor set, so there you could say that you need to master raids, but the wvw set and pvp set, I guess are all about participation and the mastery of those modes will allow you to get them more quickly.

 

I see you already backpedaled on mastery and said "some mastery" but that is a false argument because just playing this game requires "some mastery" so that can mean anything.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Gehenna.3625

[Tails.9372]

10 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

I can't find the actual quote on the old forum archive and I'm not about to attempt to find it on the GW2 Reddit, so I'm just going to use some deductive reasoning and warp back to 2012

 

The quote was from their Guild Chat for "the legendary journey" back in 2015.

 

 

10 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Ad Infinitum? Mastery over fractals.  The collection was actually difficult

 

This is what I meant about their statements seeming contradictory if you look at it as part of a bigger picture than for what it actually is. The "you dont need to excel, just participate" refers to the target audience of the content in question, not the player base as a whole. Otherwise it would have made no sense to link several legendary items to raids as these items are expected to be obtained by "raiders", not anyone else.

 

 

10 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

Aurora & vision has  the requirements for you to do living world season 3 & 4 metas and completing certain achievements to gather pieces for the precursor before taking the usual legendary item crafting route. Sure, the content isn't as hard as raids, but it does prove a mastery over season 3 & 4.

 

That's actually not the case as you can skip the master achievements by simply completing some reward tracks in the other game modes. The actually required content related gameplay part for each episode is more on the level of the current "return to LW" event.

 

10 hours ago, Sir Alymer.3406 said:

The WvW and PvP  legendary items?  (Ring and amulet) require kills and  wins respectively.

 

They recently removed the kill requirement for the ring which was originally only part of the cosmetic version.

 

[Vayne.8563]

I'm currently working through PvP legendary armor (and some WvW legendary armor as well) even though I don't particularly enjoy SPvP. It mean it's okay. I'll play it just to get the reward. But I don't really like it. 

In my journeys I've run across others who not only don't like it but don't care to try. They don't care if they win or lose because you know, you get pips either way. It takes more effort to get it by winning so they afk or they try to lose to get the game over faster so they can get more pips, not by winning but my losing in a more timely manner. I'm not sure who this helps. It's not helping PvPers who are there trying to win (I always try to win when I play) and I'm not sure it helps PvE'ers who don't like PvP but they want the shiny so they engage in that content, even if it's ruining it for other people.

Someone said, on reddit earlier, that open world PvE is too easy to reward legendary armor, but the more I thought about it, the more wrong I felt he was.  I mean what's easier that losing a thousand PvP matches without trying at all. Because that's how a lot of people are getting legendary armor. In WvW it's even worse, they take a lot of the server, get their participation up by any way they can, and read a book while getting pips, occassionaly escorting a dolyak or killing a guard to maintain participation. But they're not really participating in WvW. They're afking to get legendary armor.

Being this is the case, how different would it really be to put a set in with no new skins, just to keep people away from screwing up other people's game, while they work on something they like themselves.   If it weren't for the fact that you can get legendary armor doing the bare minimum except time spent in both PvP and WvW, why shouldn't the same be true for open world PvE.

 

You'd populate more metas that way, while at the same time, you'd keep the open world more populated in general (depending on how you set the goals) and you'd get the people who don't like PvP and WvW out of those modes so people who want to play it for enjoyment actually can enjoy it.

[Sobx.1758]

You arleady wrote that here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99043-legendary-armor-is-locked-for-some-people/page/15/?tab=comments#comment-1425451

Metas are already populated, claiming that they need to be populated with legendary armor is just false. And you're reposting the same thread you were already participating in for what reason exactly? 😉

 

If people "are afking in pvp for legendary armor" then it means there's a problem with the afk detection/ingame report system and that's what needs to be looked into.

 

_________________________

e: the thread is now merged with the previous one.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Sobx.1758

[Linken.6345]

Yea we really dident need another of these threads.

Mod please merge with

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99685-legendary-armor-by-pve-exploration/page/17/?tab=comments#comment-1444362

 

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

You arleady wrote that here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99043-legendary-armor-is-locked-for-some-people/page/15/?tab=comments#comment-1425451

Metas are already populated, claiming that they need to be populated with legendary armor is just false. And you're reposting the same thread you were already participating in for what reason exactly? 😉

 

If people "are afking in pvp for legendary armor" then it means there's a problem with the afk detection/ingame report system and that's what needs to be looked into.

It doesn't have to be metas and the new expansion hasn't launched yet.  Anet could make legendary armor do every dynamic event in the entire game. 

 

They don't have to afk for PvP armor. They can simply not afk and not try at all. You think this isn't happening? I can assure you it is.

[Vayne.8563]

1 hour ago, Linken.6345 said:

Yea we really dident need another of these threads.

Mod please merge with

 

https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/topic/99685-legendary-armor-by-pve-exploration/page/17/?tab=comments#comment-1444362

 

Actually it's not another one of these threads. That thread specifically spoke about exploration. I'm not talking about exploration at all. I'm setting this considerably wider. I've already got two pieces of legendary armor, one from WvW and one from PvP...the PvP is easier. It's also the most wasted as far as I"m concerned. Sure I'll log in and try my best in PvP. But the fact is so many people are just calling it in and not actually trying. It's pretty frustrating even for me. I can't imagine how frustrating it is for PvPers.

Yet, the suggestion made by that guy about having a legendary armor set for exploration is not just open world PvE. It's a different suggestion.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[Ragebru.1397]

1 hour ago, Sobx.1758 said:

If people "are afking in pvp for legendary armor" then it means there's a problem with the afk detection/ingame report system and that's what needs to be looked into.

If only 😞

[Linken.6345]

Or Anet can change spvp to require wins instead to stop the afking.

[yann.1946]

2 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

I'm currently working through PvP legendary armor (and some WvW legendary armor as well) even though I don't particularly enjoy SPvP. It mean it's okay. I'll play it just to get the reward. But I don't really like it. 

In my journeys I've run across others who not only don't like it but don't care to try. They don't care if they win or lose because you know, you get pips either way. It takes more effort to get it by winning so they afk or they try to lose to get the game over faster so they can get more pips, not by winning but my losing in a more timely manner. I'm not sure who this helps. It's not helping PvPers who are there trying to win (I always try to win when I play) and I'm not sure it helps PvE'ers who don't like PvP but they want the shiny so they engage in that content, even if it's ruining it for other people.

Someone said, on reddit earlier, that open world PvE is too easy to reward legendary armor, but the more I thought about it, the more wrong I felt he was.  I mean what's easier that losing a thousand PvP matches without trying at all. Because that's how a lot of people are getting legendary armor. In WvW it's even worse, they take a lot of the server, get their participation up by any way they can, and read a book while getting pips, occassionaly escorting a dolyak or killing a guard to maintain participation. But they're not really participating in WvW. They're afking to get legendary armor.

Being this is the case, how different would it really be to put a set in with no new skins, just to keep people away from screwing up other people's game, while they work on something they like themselves.   If it weren't for the fact that you can get legendary armor doing the bare minimum except time spent in both PvP and WvW, why shouldn't the same be true for open world PvE.

 

You'd populate more metas that way, while at the same time, you'd keep the open world more populated in general (depending on how you set the goals) and you'd get the people who don't like PvP and WvW out of those modes so people who want to play it for enjoyment actually can enjoy it.

Honestly, the afk thing is a problem with how rewards are distributed in pvp. Nothing more

[Tails.9372]

39 minutes ago, Linken.6345 said:

Or Anet can change spvp to require wins instead to stop the afking.

 

They're never going to do that as it goes against what they said legendary gear is there for: participation. They don't expect you to be good at it they just want you to participate, setting up a skill check (e.g. a KDR requirement) would duscurage bad players which is not what they want.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Tails.9372

[Linken.6345]

29 minutes ago, Tails.9372 said:

 

They're never going to do that as it goes against what they said legendary gear is there for: participation. They don't expect you to be good at it they just want you to participate, setting up a skill check (e.g. a KDR requirement) would duscurage bad players which is not what they want.

Standing afk is not participating tho.

[The Fear.3865]

Afkers are silver or bronze, pvp players dont play with them. 

[Vayne.8563]

22 minutes ago, The Fear.3865 said:

Afkers are silver or bronze, pvp players dont play with them. 

Good PvP players don't play with them. I play with them every day thanks.

 

Edit: I'm Silver 2 at the moment.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Vayne.8563

[Konrad Curze.5130]

they really REALLY should remove all PvP and WvW legendary armor from everyone, and then make people get it again, but with actual requirements:

 

- win PvP games by a difference of 300 and you are selected MVP of the game

 

- Capture 200 WvW objetives and your server wins the bracket by a difference of 30% points

 

 

alternatively, reward progression for stepping into a raid alone and dying without even scratching the raid boss.

 

you know, the PvE equivalent of "Im literally doing nothing at all" just like in PvP and WvW

Edited August 26, 2021 by Konrad Curze.5130

[Ragebru.1397]

2 hours ago, Tails.9372 said:

 

They're never going to do that as it goes against what they said legendary gear is there for: participation. They don't expect you to be good at it they just want you to participate, setting up a skill check (e.g. a KDR requirement) would duscurage bad players which is not what they want.

Raids are hardly a participation factor though, right?

[Tails.9372]

6 minutes ago, jwhite.7012 said:

Raids are hardly a participation factor though, right?

 

If you put it in context of what their target audience for this type of content is: they are.

[yoni.7015]

4 hours ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Because that's how a lot of people are getting legendary armor. In WvW it's even worse, they take a lot of the server, get their participation up by any way they can, and read a book while getting pips, occassionaly escorting a dolyak or killing a guard to maintain participation. But they're not really participating in WvW. They're afking to get legendary armor.

 

 

How do you know that? Do you have numbers to support that? I’m curious because my experience is different. I got my first legendary set via PvP and there were some players afking but they were a minority. Got my second set in WvW and that’s the mode I still play the most and here again afking players are a small minority. 
Besides that, there are several thread about this topic and this has already been discussed there. You didn’t have to open a new one. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by yoni.7015

[Vayne.8563]

37 minutes ago, yoni.7015 said:

How do you know that? Do you have numbers to support that? I’m curious because my experience is different. I got my first legendary set via PvP and there were some players afking but they were a minority. Got my second set in WvW and that’s the mode I still play the most and here again afking players are a small minority. 
Besides that, there are several thread about this topic and this has already been discussed there. You didn’t have to open a new one. 

Source, I know people who do it.  If you think I know the only handful of -people who do it, I don't really know what to tell you. I don't need numbers to know it's done, it's obvious if you're looking. You're the first person in all the time I've been talking about it that says it's hardly ever done.  If you're not in gold or platinum and you're banging around silver and bronze, it's very obvious.

There's plenty of people who afk in WvW.  There are plenty of people who afk at world events too.  You seem to be one of the few people in the game who thinks this isn't happening.

[yoni.7015]

2 minutes ago, Vayne.8563 said:

Source, I know people who do it.  If you think I know the only handful of -people who do it, I don't really know what to tell you. I don't need numbers to know it's done, it's obvious if you're looking. You're the first person in all the time I've been talking about it that says it's hardly ever done.  If you're not in gold or platinum and you're banging around silver and bronze, it's very obvious.

There's plenty of people who afk in WvW.  There are plenty of people who afk at world events too.  You seem to be one of the few people in the game who thinks this isn't happening.

I did not write, that it does not happen. But in WvW, where I spend a lot of time, it’s a small minority.