End of Dragons elite spec beta - Willbender underpowered, Harbringer OP, Virtuoso just about right

[artrayus.8312]

I wasn't sure the best spot to post but I wanted to have a conversation about how these Specializations are feeling in beta.

 

Willbender

This one had me the most excited initially after watching the promo. I've played a lot of guardian both FB and DH. I made this one first and just as excited as I was to try was equally met with disappointment. The talents feel punishing due to the disadvantages they tied in to try to offset the advantages. It almost feels like a choice between a lesser disadvantage rather than an exciting bonus or advantage. The damage left something to be desired as well. I was overall very disappointed and if this isn't reworked or buffed I will likely never bother playing this when it goes live. This is very sad because I greatly enjoy playing guardian was looking for a fun new twist for the profession. 

Virtuoso 

If I'm not on my guardian I'm probably on my mesmer. Again, I was excited when I saw the promotion. I think this is probably tuned right where it needs to be but it felt squishy to me. I'm curious what other beta testers think? The damage feels great so I honestly think this specialization probably needs very little work before going live. I think it's still slightly confusing how the talents play into the daggers. Do talents that buff clone damage now buff dagger damage? So all the clone damage is loaded into a mechanic gated burst? It's interesting and I suppose balanced at face value, but I'm also curious to see how this plays in pvp. Overall, I like the concept as long as you can still get use out of phantasm and clone talents. I would like to see something that helps soloing after losing clones which are such a critical and foundational mechanic for mesmer solo play. 

Harbringer

I honestly play necro the least out of all professions so I tried this one simply out of curiosity. I have greatly enjoyed condi specs in the past and I have to say I was thrilled when I started playing with this. I enjoyed the concept of the utility skills, but they almost seem a little boring to be honest. However, the damage and survivability is incredible and the gameplay feels fantastic with nothing more than basic carrion armor/stats. I wouldn't be surprised if this is nerfed before it goes live. As it stands, I might be playing more necro!

 

Let me know your thoughts guys. I'm very curious what players are thinking at this point. 

[Beleron.9347]

"Squishy" was exactly my first thoughts about virtuoso also; the lack of clones to take the aggro being the problem. 

[zealex.9410]

Virtuoso works ok in pve because oitside of some mobs you dont have intense projectile hate.

 

In pvp and wvw you are some anti projectile skill away from being useless. The traits are aslo very uncreative because they wanted to go for build enabling stat dumbs rather than transformative traits that open you to new gameplay ideas.

[eyelogix.1654]

Harbinger does need some more tuning.. i could burn down 4-5 mobs with ease in PvE. 
Willbender needs a little more tuning as well it felt underpowered as well, and i went in downstate quite a few times.

Virtuoso was okay i had quite fun it with it, but in WvW or PvP it might have some issues if you count their attacks as projectiles, but i guess you should always have a GS or S/S with you.

[Xanadrine.4352]

Harbinger is not op its squishy as heck. Its a glass cannon in wvw. From the tone of your post you dont play a necro, sounds more like you just dont want them to compete.

Edited August 18, 2021 by Zuldari.3940

[Xanadrine.4352]

1 hour ago, eyelogix.1654 said:

Harbinger does need some more tuning.. i could burn down 4-5 mobs with ease in PvE. 

Oh gee I do that live on a couple of elites already. killing a group of pve mobs in open world easy isnt anything special.

[ArchonWing.9480]

55 minutes ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

Harbinger is not op its squishy as heck. Its a glass cannon in wvw. From the tone of your post you dont play a necro, sounds more like you just dont want them to compete.

 

Maybe if you used the default gear. I didn't think it was squishy at all. But then i had like 31k hp. (Changed Armor/Rings to Celestial ---> Durability Runes). Also threw away the useless staff in favor of scepter/focus

 

Also the default build has fear traits (?) and I didn't see many sources of fear but I'm still trying to learn how it works.

 

I really wish I could have gotten some cleansing sigils but couldn't. Instead I had to run a condi clear elixir instead of the might one which sucked.

 

I don't think it's particularly overpowered myself though. Maybe the elite that gives 25 stacks of might is a bit cheesy at times.

 

It does however make engi pistol look horrible though.

Edited August 18, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Mik.3401]

5 hours ago, zealex.9410 said:

Virtuoso works ok in pve because oitside of some mobs you dont have intense projectile hate.

 

In pvp and wvw you are some anti projectile skill away from being useless. The traits are aslo very uncreative because they wanted to go for build enabling stat dumbs rather than transformative traits that open you to new gameplay ideas.

Exactly, I hope arenanet acknowledges the voices of pvp community, because pvp is the real test for validity of any class.

 

Sure - running around killing mobs in pve with virtuoso’s slow projectiles is fun, but they have little use in competitive modes. The traits bring literally nothing to the table.

[Genesis.5169]

Virtuosos sucks which means for the community that means its just about right.

[Mungrul.9358]

7 hours ago, artrayus.8312 said:

It almost feels like a choice between a lesser disadvantage rather than an exciting bonus or advantage.

Welcome to a Warrior's everyday life.

[Vindicate.6951]

14 hours ago, Beleron.9347 said:

"Squishy" was exactly my first thoughts about virtuoso also; the lack of clones to take the aggro being the problem. 

 

So the perfect candidate to replace a weaver? 😄

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

13 hours ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

Maybe if you used the default gear. I didn't think it was squishy at all. But then i had like 31k hp. (Changed Armor/Rings to Celestial ---> Durability Runes). Also threw away the useless staff in favor of scepter/focus

 

Also the default build has fear traits (?) and I didn't see many sources of fear but I'm still trying to learn how it works.

 

I really wish I could have gotten some cleansing sigils but couldn't. Instead I had to run a condi clear elixir instead of the might one which sucked.

 

I don't think it's particularly overpowered myself though. Maybe the elite that gives 25 stacks of might is a bit cheesy at times.

 

It does however make engi pistol look horrible though.

I played with Diviner gear and didn't feel squishy in the slightest, but then the shroud evade, the weakness, the chill from Focus and staff, and the slow from the elixir trait probably had a great deal to do with that.

 

It's weird, some of us have walked away with exact opposite impressions of the spec in regards to its sustain.

[ArchonWing.9480]

5 hours ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

I played with Diviner gear and didn't feel squishy in the slightest, but then the shroud evade, the weakness, the chill from Focus and staff, and the slow from the elixir trait probably had a great deal to do with that.

 

It's weird, some of us have walked away with exact opposite impressions of the spec in regards to its sustain.

 

Depends on what the content was. I tend to err towards tanky gear, and I was able to pick w/e stats with legendary armory.

 

I mostly tested by trying to torment down the cannons in front of keeps/towers in EBG/ and seeing if I could take them down before the defenders killed me. xD  The splash effect is useful against cannon and user! Ended up dying like a few times; but they were all due to the results of bad decision making and had nothing to do with being a harbringer.  That shroud leap is really good.

 

Granted a lot of people were trying out their stuff so many didn't know what was going on.

 

However, I don't see this being used in zergs due to the projeectile hate, and Scourge just gives too much group utility. atm. (same goes with those other 2 elite specs. Firebrand is so busted there is nothing Willbender  offers beyond running away)

Edited August 19, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

3 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

Depends on what the content was. I tend to err towards tanky gear, and I was able to pick w/e stats with legendary armory.

This was in WvW. I honestly didn't feel squishy on Diviner gear and all mid traits in Harbinger.

3 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

I mostly tested by trying to torment down the cannons in front of keeps in EBG/towers and seeing if I could take them down before the defenders killed me. xD  The splash effect is useful against cannon and user! Ended up dying like a few times; but they were all due to the results of bad decision making and had nothing to do with being a harbringer.  That shroud leap is really good.

The shroud leap is pretty good.

3 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

Granted a lot of people were trying out their stuff so many didn't know what was going on.

Yeah, I want to say that is why I rekted the WB I found in the while, but the WB feedback thread leads me to think otherwise.

3 minutes ago, ArchonWing.9480 said:

 

However, I don't see this being used in zergs due to the projeectile hate, and Scourge just gives too much group utility. atm. (same goes with those other 2 elite specs. Firebrand is so busted there is nothing Willbender  offers beyond running away)

I didn't have any issues with projectiles during a bay assault with an opposing zerg defending it.

[Shin Ryu.5802]

I think your assessment is pretty fair.  My quick takes:

tl;dr:  I generally agree with OP:  Virtuoso and harbinger good, willbreaker really needs work.

My "stress testing" was against fire hydras and mobs of Forged in Crystal Oasis, because I wanted to get to a Level 80 map in a hurry despite waypoints not being unlocked.  Having an Invitation to the Lily of the Elon in a shared inventory space is super handy...

Virtuoso, or mesmer as a bomber ele:  My initial thought is that virtuoso would have a hard time competing favorably with the chrono and mirage elite specs just because they were already so much fun to play.  However, I found virtuoso to be yet another "win" in the Mesmer Elite Spec category.  The biggest damage dealing skills do have a pretty long telegraph and there aren't clones to draw away aggro, otherwise it would be pretty OP.  As for it being "squishy," I found that to be less of a problem.  The new F skills include a fairly long blur or block with a relatively low cooldown, so damage mitigation isn't as hard as I thought it would be.  I had a blast mowing down Forged mobs with just the default gear and build settings, but got punished whenever I got sloppy.

Willbreaker, or guardian as a thief:  I think they were going for a representation of Shiro Tagachi during his bodyguard days, but they missed pretty hard.  It really feels like playing a nerfed thief, even decked out in full 'zerk with scholar runes.  I tried Nomad's with dolyak runes just for giggles, but willbreaker is still essentially a glass character.  Its rapid attacks have good synergy with the Litany of Wrath healing skill, and Save Yourselves goes with practically any guardian build.  Since Resolve is still the willbreaker's main healing effect, Renewed Focus helps improve survivability immensely by both renewing virtues and providing some invulnerability.  I really WANT to like willbreaker and put more effort than I put into the other two beta elites combined to get it to work on par with other elite guardian specs, but it definitely needs some work to keep it from just feeling like a second-rate daredevil.

Harbinger, or necro as an alchemist engi:  I was most skeptical of this one, especially since necro already has very solid elite spec alternatives with reaper and scourge.  However, the new take on life force management seems pretty balanced and intuitive, and Blight wasn't as delicate a tightrope walk as I thought it would be:  Lower health pool = higher dps.  Very simple.  Pleasant surprise.

Of course, individual experiences will vary:  Virtuoso seems to be favorably regarded by most, opinions on harbinger are largely divided but positive leaning, and very few people like willbreaker, probably because it manages to appeal neither to guardian nor thief players.  Maybe they should have taken a page from how revenant handles Shiro-esque weapon and utility skills?

[LucianDK.8615]

honestly unsure how people can be so 'tanky' with a harbinger. Absolutely not my experience.

Edited August 19, 2021 by LucianDK.8615

[Xanadrine.4352]

12 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

honestly unsure how people can be so 'tanky' with a harbinger. Absolutely not my experience.

Nor mine, im not a great player though. Mighty teapot played the heck out of the new specs and he said they are weaker than their PoF counterparts.

 

[Lucentfir.7430]

6 hours ago, Zuldari.3940 said:

Nor mine, im not a great player though. Mighty teapot played the heck out of the new specs and he said they are weaker than their PoF counterparts.

 

They're also weaker than their HoT counterparts as well Willbender especially. EoD feels like it's coming along like HoT did in the aspects of it being rushed. 

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

22 hours ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

honestly unsure how people can be so 'tanky' with a harbinger. Absolutely not my experience.

Mixture of the pulsing heal, Eternal Life, life stealing on multi hit attacks, weakness, and slow.

[LucianDK.8615]

8 minutes ago, Lan Deathrider.5910 said:

Mixture of the pulsing heal, Eternal Life, life stealing on multi hit attacks, weakness, and slow.

I asume Eternal life is only used in competitive modes?

[Lan Deathrider.5910]

2 minutes ago, LucianDK.8615 said:

I asume Eternal life is only used in competitive modes?

I wouldn't know, as I did not test that trait myself, but others are swearing by it as it is perma health regen in combat essentially.

[Gorem.8104]

My fave part about Virtuoso is in pvp they are a lot easier to kill, the easier Mesmers in the game to kill, I like that a lot, I want all Mesmers to roll this elite spec for pvp. 

 

Harb is so going to be nerfed, their 2 movement abilities have insane range, they can disconnect so easily as well as tank most anything and kill everyone - if they are played well. Bad players playing this spec will die faster then anything in the game. Its another case of "is this person actually using the right stats". I Know if we could inspect other players we'd all die when we realise what other people wear. 

 

Willbender is crazy underpowered, it almost needs an entire re-design. It takes all their skills to catch up to someone, which they then have no skills available to use to hit them with. Animation locks coupled with no damage coupled with no passives coupled with everything needing to have a disadvantage to have an advantage in something else. The best WB's I've seen use 0 utilities and elites and do not use offhand sword from WB. Its basically Core Guard the elite spec.