Grenade Barrage

[Sleepwalker.1398]

Is this skill going to be looked at anytime soon?

It is just broken in WvW.

 

[DeceiverX.8361]

It was specifically fixed for PvP a while ago, so survey generally says "No." 

 

It's the same old ANet balance antics and inconsistency where something overtly busted in WvW is left around for long periods of time for unknown reasons after being formally targeted as a relative-strength problem in sPvP. 

[solemn.9608]

In one year maybe

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

Blink and you'll miss it:

 

https://streamable.com/6u4xf9

 

My Backstab looks cute next to the Explosive Entrance and Grenade Barrages:

 

https://imgur.com/a/eQMSVrA

 

Considering the burst from stealth deleted two players from nearly full health by applying almost 20K AOE damage in under 0.2 seconds, it must be a very high-risk/high-reward, difficult to execute and land combo, requiring great skill and substantial trait and stat investment.

 

Some things to note:

 

• The burst came from a second Scrapper (Gold Squire) who attacked from stealth, not the Mithril Recruit I was focusing, but the point still stands.
• As a thief, I'm squishy, but not pure glass as far as thieves go: full Ascended Armor, almost all Marauder's stats.
• The Explosive Entrance plus 4 of 6 Grenade Barrages hit me for over 14K.  The remaining two grenades hit during my downstate invulnerability but would have added another ~5-6K.

 

Considering things like the Deadeye - Malicious Oneshot Roamer were nerfed out of existence (something I never touched, having only tried DE for 3 days now), why is this grenade engi stuff happening?

 

Edited August 29, 2021 by Twilight Tempest.7584

[displayname.8315]

Not saying grenades aren't broken but marauders is basically glass.  Don't mistake vitality as "tankiness".  When you run 0 toughness it doesn't really matter if you have 15k hitpoints or 25k hitpoints your going down if you fail to evade.

[Shroud.2307]

Grenade Barrage isn't the problem, it's Explosive Entrance.

Also would like to note this is yet another case of many where if it does get nerfed, core Engi suffers from it because it's OP on Scrapper. This is why I'm still of the opinion that Engi should get improved grandmaster traits only when slotted without Scrapper or Holosmith.
Just as an example, Iron Blooded gives 2% damage reduction per Boon, maybe it could be 3% when used with core Engi, or maybe add an additional effect. 

But I digress,
the biggest issue is damage to Barrier conversion on Scrapper which gives it an insane amount of survivability, and Explosive Entrance being able to proc for up to 5k. It's just like Rapid Fire and One Wolf Pack. Rapid Fire isn't going to 100 - 0 anything that has more than 11k health without OWP, but if you tack OWP on there then yeah, it gets insane. 
Grenade Barrage is still going to truck without EE but at least it's not going to one shot things with 20k health.

It's one of those things where it's broken in combination with a few different things rather than the skill itself. 

But, as someone who abuses it on a daily basis, albeit with core Engi which makes me a whole lot easier to counter and kill, I can say first hand that yes it is totally busted.
Honestly, Grenades + Explosives in general are way too easy to use. Just spam skills and do a metric ton of damage. I really feel like Grenade Kit needs an overhaul to be more utility focused rather than being a damage spamming kit.

[Quench.7091]

I think one issue might be how things are balanced around protection and projectile hate. There's a lot of it in WvW, so damage is balanced around it. Engineers aren't the best with removing protection and over half of their utility skills provide at least 1 projectile. If they can set you up to be in a position where you don't have these things and you can't react, that's when they really have you.

[Widmo.3186]

Its still boosted and none of engis without hands will admit it. Projectile is almost invisible in most situations, in perfect world during 1v1 you can see it, but how many times does it happen in WvW? Another thing is hitting it straight from stealth, stupidity level close to DE. 

But, can you counter it? Of course you can, most nade engis are one trick ponies, squishy and panicing once they fail their burst. Problem is how you counter it, because you dont dodge stun animation frame like when you fight warrior. You dont wait red circles like when you fight scourge. You just sit in stealth till engi shows up or engage with full evade spam build so he cant hit you even if he wants to, and you burst him meanwhile. Thats the ridiculous part, you dont need hands, you just need to spam randomly evade so you dont get hit with even more random nades. Thats how ANet wants PvP to look like nowadays.

[displayname.8315]

Best strategy would probably be not to complain when you play a 1-shot build and get 1-shot.  Stop running the no blocks, no reflects, no projectile absorb, no stun break, no mobility, no invuns.  Mostly realize that 1v1 duelists running around trying to 1-shot people is not WvW play and maybe you should stop chasing and complaining about 1v1 encounters if you can't handle them.

[Stand The Wall.6987]

what doesn't hit hard when built right?

[Xenesis.6389]

Oh, been waiting to see if this thread would finally show up.

At least rapid fire and one with wolf still gives you a better chance to dodge it.

Incoming defense arguments to defend running glass.... while still having access to the most broken support.

 

Scrapper omegalul burst 1

 

Scrapper omegalul burst 2

 

 

But carry on like nothing is wrong, we know it won't be balanced, even a well known just returned dev plays a scrapper 🙄

Edited August 29, 2021 by Xenesis.6389

[Sviel.7493]

Even if they were going to fix it, you'd have to post in the actual class forum and try to convince them WvW is a thing that exists.  The WvW specific team doesn't seem to have much to do with skill balancing.

[Xenesis.6389]

2 minutes ago, Sviel.7493 said:

Even if they were going to fix it, you'd have to post in the actual class forum and try to convince them WvW is a thing that exists.  The WvW specific team doesn't seem to have much to do with skill balancing.

 

Yes I know, which is why I don't bother with class forums for the most part, it'll be like arguing with thieves over stealth here....

The wvw team has access to balancing numbers not mechanics, this is why mirage cloak was not touched, but mirage dodge was nerfed in order to keep cloak in line (instead of nerfing the numbers on the other stuff it affected instead). They don't seem to care about wvw balance, even the dev who supposedly likes "numbers and charts" doesn't seem to want to bother doing so when pve/wvw/pvp are all separate areas now.

 

This is why the broken stuff gets hidden for so long, players don't want to report it but abuse it, and devs don't even want to look at wvw, the newly christened "cornerstone" of gw2.

[ASP.8093]

3 hours ago, displayname.8315 said:

Best strategy would probably be not to complain when you play a 1-shot build and get 1-shot.  Stop running the no blocks, no reflects, no projectile absorb, no stun break, no mobility, no invuns.  Mostly realize that 1v1 duelists running around trying to 1-shot people is not WvW play and maybe you should stop chasing and complaining about 1v1 encounters if you can't handle them.

Ok but the way people use Grenade Barrage is to just hit you with it point-blank, either immediately upon stunning you or as a one-shot opener from stealth. That inherently affords less room for counterplay than Gale+Plasma Beam or RF+OWP or Decapitate or Backstab.

 

And those "duelist builds" are kinda required if you ever want small-scale encounters to actually end. We can't all just sit around trying to cele-tank each other for 10 minutes behind Antitoxin runes.

[displayname.8315]

1 hour ago, ASP.8093 said:

Ok but the way people use Grenade Barrage is to just hit you with it point-blank, either immediately upon stunning you or as a one-shot opener from stealth. That inherently affords less room for counterplay than Gale+Plasma Beam or RF+OWP or Decapitate or Backstab.

 

And those "duelist builds" are kinda required if you ever want small-scale encounters to actually end. We can't all just sit around trying to cele-tank each other for 10 minutes behind Antitoxin runes.

Thief with their steal/daze/interrupt while still attacking at the same time is stronger IMO.  Not to mention the dodge traits and steal traits, shadow step list goes on with them.  All engines do is elixir invun and rocket boost away hoping you'll chase.

 

I'm just saying that Marauder is bad IMO.  Run daredevil runes or something and turn all the precision into toughness.  Lose some vitality for some extra power.

[Fasiq.2150]

8 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Considering the burst from stealth deleted two players from nearly full health by applying almost 20K AOE damage in under 0.2 seconds, it must be a very high-risk/high-reward, difficult to execute and land combo, requiring great skill and substantial trait and stat investment.

It is high risk/high reward. It does not require great skill. It is full zerker/scholar so if I don't kill the target then I die. This is a fun (for me) meme build and not meant for serious play.

1 hour ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

This is why the broken stuff gets hidden for so long, players don't want to report it but abuse it, and devs don't even want to look at wvw, the newly christened "cornerstone" of gw2.

I'm 100% sure anet is tracking.

https://youtu.be/_qPtyrIIEEs

 

[Xenesis.6389]

4 minutes ago, Fasiq.2150 said:

It is high risk/high reward. It does not require great skill. It is full zerker/scholar so if I don't kill the target then I die. This is a fun (for me) meme build and not meant for serious play.

I'm 100% sure anet is tracking.

https://youtu.be/_qPtyrIIEEs

 

 

Nice bomb, won't provoke any changes. 😑

High risk/high reward..... then runs away from a zerg in superspeed and stealth. 😆

 

One shot builds are always tagged as "meme" builds... that everyone runs.

 

 

[Fasiq.2150]

5 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

High risk/high reward..... then runs away from a zerg in superspeed and stealth. 😆

 

One shot builds are always tagged as "meme" builds... that everyone runs.

Alright Webster hit me with the definition of high risk/high reward so I can correct myself in the future. Also, I cut the clip before I got mauled by the zerg to make myself look better.

 

I would think Engi wouldn't be the least played class if "everyone" ran it. Realistically how many people have you come across that use the one shot build? How many run it full time?

[Sleepwalker.1398]

24 minutes ago, Fasiq.2150 said:

Realistically how many people have you come across that use the one shot build? How many run it full time?

Nearly everyone on Mag.

You might avoid one but the next or 3rd one will get you.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

The problem isn't so much the one-shot itself.  But being able to do it from stealth puts it in the company of Mesmer and Deadeye 1-shots from stealth that no longer exist or are a shadow of their prior form, yet required much more setup and star alignment all while being on truly zero-sustain builds.  The fact these builds were nerfed game-wide, and the fact Grenade builds were nerfed in PvP suggests this isn't a playstyle Anet particularly wants.

 

Further, unlike any form of Thief or Soulbeast 1-shot, the grenade burst is AOE, hitting up to 5 targets.

 

Meanwhile, the Scrapper has more sustain and comparable disengage which may include Stability, Barrier, Protection, Superspeed, Invulnerability, a dash if Rocket Boots, and long stealth if not used to open, depending on how they're built.

 

Add it altogether and we have a build that can 1-shot up to 5 people in an AOE, with no setup, from stealth, and survive to tell the tale, whether the burst succeeds or not.  Last I checked, Anet supposedly wanted to shift away from this stuff.

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

1 hour ago, displayname.8315 said:

Thief with their steal/daze/interrupt while still attacking at the same time is stronger IMO.  Not to mention the dodge traits and steal traits, shadow step list goes on with them.  All engines do is elixir invun and rocket boost away hoping you'll chase.

 

Thieves have a lot of tricks up their sleeves, but Engis are known as "Swiss Army Knives" and "Jacks of all Trades" for a reason.  We could rattle off some Engi trademarks like: "Engi with their barrier/protection/stability while still attacking at the same time..." but that would be rather pointless.  At the end of the day, a Thief isn't going to 1-shot anything in 2021, and even when it could, it took a lot more setup on a much riskier build than this Grenade engi stuff.  Balanced, right?

[Xenesis.6389]

11 minutes ago, Fasiq.2150 said:

Alright Webster hit me with the definition of high risk/high reward so I can correct myself in the future. Also, I cut the clip before I got mauled by the zerg to make myself look better.

 

I would think Engi wouldn't be the least played class if "everyone" ran it. Realistically how many people have you come across that use the one shot build? How many run it full time?

 

If you roam you will find it often, scrappers are either using the nade build or support for their little group, although I've also seen some cc rifle builds too lately. You'd think the holosmith would be more suited to be the dps spec for engineers...

 

I'm assuming you looked up engineer gw2efficiency, it could be argued that site has like stats on 10% of actual accounts, and probably mostly pve players. It's certainly not the case in WvW where they are plenty of them in there, as they are a needed class in both zergs and small groups, best support to have around for everything they bring, even just randomly running into a group of allies in a fight makes a huge difference. It could be argued that aoe one shot scrappers are probably even worse than single one shot backstab thieves ever were, because of the access to support they also have. At this point I'm just waiting to hear them getting their port skill with the next spec to complete them.

 

But again, kinda senseless arguing over this stuff, same with the stealth issue, it won't change, anet doesn't care about balance.

[Gwaihir.1745]

7 hours ago, displayname.8315 said:

Best strategy would probably be not to complain when you play a 1-shot build and get 1-shot.  Stop running the no blocks, no reflects, no projectile absorb, no stun break, no mobility, no invuns.  Mostly realize that 1v1 duelists running around trying to 1-shot people is not WvW play and maybe you should stop chasing and complaining about 1v1 encounters if you can't handle them.

They removed radiant guard I see no reason why this should be immune to the nerf bat.

[subversiontwo.7501]

10 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

Considering things like the Deadeye - Malicious Oneshot Roamer were nerfed out of existence (something I never touched, having only tried DE for 3 days now), why is this grenade engi stuff happening?

That's rather easy to answer. Not to say that Grenade barrage couldn't use a look at, as it is an outlier ability and (at least as far as I am concerned) a rather boring gimmick. However, there is quite a big difference in application and reliability to power between your two examples. If you wanted to make a comparison it would be more valid to compare stealth-barrage tricks to stealthing up and vaulting on a DD, with which you shouldn't have issues few-shotting marauder builds (without vitalitity bonuses) either.

 

I'm gonna be honest, I'm not much of a fan of the barrier builds for small scale either, they just feel like they have too large a gap between whether they get counterplayed or not. Now, don't get me wrong, counterplay is generally a good and important thing that should stay important. However, there is a general issue in recent years of builds specializing into different types of content just splitting too far apart and matching up poorly. On alot of builds barrier is very much apart of that, where eg., they can become incredibly punishing versus builds with low control or against players who have not yet learnt to apply such counters well enough. There is already a very large gap between experienced and inexperienced players which does not need to be inflated. At the same time, some things equipped to break the synergies of eg., a power-barrier Scrapper and in the hands of a player who can apply it, it shuts down very much of what that entire spec has in that space. I'd rather see the specs built broader and around mechanics with less volatility. That's just my preference though, I can certainly understand why some players like all-risk, all-reward approaches. I just think that there should be a balance in those things too or at least the devs shouldn't go all out like that on a design level.

 

You can see something similar in the reception of the recent Willbender tests and beta feedback. Some people are salivating over the F3+loop trick while others find it very gimmicked and poorly designed. Some do both things at once. It is kinda similar to things like all-or-nothing barrage ambushes or damage-barrier loops.

[Shroud.2307]

 

2 hours ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

The problem isn't so much the one-shot itself.  But being able to do it from stealth puts it in the company of Mesmer and Deadeye 1-shots from stealth that no longer exist or are a shadow of their prior form, yet required much more setup and star alignment all while being on truly zero-sustain builds.  The fact these builds were nerfed game-wide, and the fact Grenade builds were nerfed in PvP suggests this isn't a playstyle Anet particularly wants.

 

Further, unlike any form of Thief or Soulbeast 1-shot, the grenade burst is AOE, hitting up to 5 targets.

 

Meanwhile, the Scrapper has more sustain and comparable disengage which may include Stability, Barrier, Protection, Superspeed, Invulnerability, a dash if Rocket Boots, and long stealth if not used to open, depending on how they're built.

 

Add it altogether and we have a build that can 1-shot up to 5 people in an AOE, with no setup, from stealth, and survive to tell the tale, whether the burst succeeds or not.  Last I checked, Anet supposedly wanted to shift away from this stuff.

Grenade Barrage also has a recharge of 25 seconds, and thanks to a long standing bug, can be completely negated by a single Blind despite being a multi-hit. This is true of all Grenade skills - 1 Blind = every hit miss. Explosive Entrance will still hit you though.

Also, Rocket Boots are terrible. I know they seem great to an outsider because it has two charges and removes soft CC, but I assure you they aren't good for anything other than running, and you'll wish you had something else slotted if you get stuck in a fight. The only people that use this skill don't actually want to/know how to fight.

You make valid points, but I think the takeaway from this is that Thief and Mesmer can both spike more frequently and are harder to pin down without needing to rely on a skill(s) that have limited value. Engi on the other hand is a lot less versatile in this role - it doesn't get to miss Barrage, wait 6 seconds, then Stealth and try again.

Also, also
Easiest way to kill a Grenade Scrapper is with Condi's or hit and run. They don't get Barrier for free (I mean... They do, but they don't), they have to hit you to get it. If you can Condi them a little then hard kite, or spike then hard kite, their sustain potential is completely gone. It's very similar to a Warrior with Adrenal Health in that regard - if it doesn't hit you with a Burst it doesn't get healing - dodge it and you heavily cripple their sustain.

Edited August 30, 2021 by Shroud.2307