Grenade Barrage

[ArchonWing.9480]

1 hour ago, Shroud.2307 said:

 

Also, Rocket Boots are terrible. I know they seem great to an outsider because it has two charges and removes soft CC, but I assure you they aren't good for anything other than running, and you'll wish you had something else slotted if you get stuck in a fight. The only people that use this skill don't actually want to/know how to fight.

 

The blast finisher is great with healing turret or medic gyro,

Though yes, most seen with it are just one trick ponies that are afraid of dying. They will only have 1 stunbreak, or none at all.

Edited August 30, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[Chips.7968]

On 8/29/2021 at 4:20 PM, displayname.8315 said:

Best strategy would probably be not to complain when you play a 1-shot build and get 1-shot.  Stop running the no blocks, no reflects, no projectile absorb, no stun break, no mobility, no invuns.  Mostly realize that 1v1 duelists running around trying to 1-shot people is not WvW play and maybe you should stop chasing and complaining about 1v1 encounters if you can't handle them.

Genuine question, which of that list is the grenade engie missing? You know, blocks, reflects, absorb projectile, stun break, mobility?

 

I mean, I am assuming you refer to the OP as having given up all those to try and be a one shot build (can thief do one shot anymore?). I also assume engie has given up all of those in order to be a 1 shot build as well then, right?!

[Hotride.2187]

20 hours ago, Fasiq.2150 said:

It is high risk/high reward. It does not require great skill. It is full zerker/scholar so if I don't kill the target then I die. This is a fun (for me) meme build and not meant for serious play.

I'm 100% sure anet is tracking.

https://youtu.be/_qPtyrIIEEs

 

Putting up with the grenade BS is worth it just for that 1 video 🙂

[ArchonWing.9480]

But then for some reason they buffed scrappers....

 

For PvE Reasons. (granted it doesn't really help these one shot builds)

Edited August 30, 2021 by ArchonWing.9480

[displayname.8315]

4 hours ago, Chips.7968 said:

Genuine question, which of that list is the grenade engie missing? You know, blocks, reflects, absorb projectile, stun break, mobility?

 

I mean, I am assuming you refer to the OP as having given up all those to try and be a one shot build (can thief do one shot anymore?). I also assume engie has given up all of those in order to be a 1 shot build as well then, right?!

The guy was playing a marauders deadeye so shouldn't he be shooting between invis-dodges.  I don't see the point of running a glass precision build why not use daredevil runes and run some kind of cavalier/valkyrie hybrid.

 

Sounds to me like he's not quick with positioning and probably getting mowed over after his first dodge.  Not used to the kneel mechanic, hasn't synergized the right utility skill yet, seen it before it's just a practice thing.

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by displayname.8315

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

21 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

That's rather easy to answer. Not to say that Grenade barrage couldn't use a look at, as it is an outlier ability and (at least as far as I am concerned) a rather boring gimmick. However, there is quite a big difference in application and reliability to power between your two examples. If you wanted to make a comparison it would be more valid to compare stealth-barrage tricks to stealthing up and vaulting on a DD, with which you shouldn't have issues few-shotting marauder builds (without vitalitity bonuses) either.

 

I compared 1-shot Grenade Scrapper to pre-nerf 1-shot Malicious Backstab Deadeye (as well as pre-nerf 1-shot Mesmer bursts) in the sense all are true 1-shots from stealth.  Not "few-shots", one-shot.  As in, out of nowhere you're dead, unless you have the reflexes and low latency to react within actual fractions of a second.  Good luck if you're already engaged in a fight or have your attention elsewhere (like in my clip).

 

21 hours ago, subversiontwo.7501 said:

I'm gonna be honest, I'm not much of a fan of the barrier builds for small scale either, they just feel like they have too large a gap between whether they get counterplayed or not. Now, don't get me wrong, counterplay is generally a good and important thing that should stay important. However, there is a general issue in recent years of builds specializing into different types of content just splitting too far apart and matching up poorly. On alot of builds barrier is very much apart of that, where eg., they can become incredibly punishing versus builds with low control or against players who have not yet learnt to apply such counters well enough. There is already a very large gap between experienced and inexperienced players which does not need to be inflated. At the same time, some things equipped to break the synergies of eg., a power-barrier Scrapper and in the hands of a player who can apply it, it shuts down very much of what that entire spec has in that space. I'd rather see the specs built broader and around mechanics with less volatility. That's just my preference though, I can certainly understand why some players like all-risk, all-reward approaches. I just think that there should be a balance in those things too or at least the devs shouldn't go all out like that on a design level.

 

You can see something similar in the reception of the recent Willbender tests and beta feedback. Some people are salivating over the F3+loop trick while others find it very gimmicked and poorly designed. Some do both things at once. It is kinda similar to things like all-or-nothing barrage ambushes or damage-barrier loops.

 

Totally agree there are large gaps among builds and experience levels.  Those gaps can seem brutal in mismatched encounters.  Unfortunately that's a tradeoff that comes with build diversity and deep, high-skill-ceiling gameplay, which I think are good things.  I do think outlier mechanics like the current EE + GB bomb, excessive Barrier you mentioned, and, as many would argue, perma Stealth, fall into the category of poorly designed gimmicks that are neither deep nor skillful play, but more carry by build.

 

19 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

You make valid points, but I think the takeaway from this is that Thief and Mesmer can both spike more frequently and are harder to pin down without needing to rely on a skill(s) that have limited value. Engi on the other hand is a lot less versatile in this role - it doesn't get to miss Barrage, wait 6 seconds, then Stealth and try again.

 

True, but the ultimate goal of 1-shot builds is to 1-shot the target on the first go.  How quickly they can spike again doesn't really matter if the success rate of the initial spike is high enough.  And in that regard, I think Engi's EE + GB bomb from stealth has the advantage.  Not to mention true 1-shot Thieves and Mesmers aren't really a thing anymore.

 

19 hours ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Easiest way to kill a Grenade Scrapper is with Condi's or hit and run. They don't get Barrier for free (I mean... They do, but they don't), they have to hit you to get it. If you can Condi them a little then hard kite, or spike then hard kite, their sustain potential is completely gone. It's very similar to a Warrior with Adrenal Health in that regard - if it doesn't hit you with a Burst it doesn't get healing - dodge it and you heavily cripple their sustain.

 

Good advice.  Though I generally don't have trouble with average players of either of these builds one on one.  I experienced the Barrier denial strategy not long ago when a Grenade Scrapper roamer (probably not a 1-shot build) dismounted me not once but twice when we passed each other.  We fought both times, and I won both times.  I had no trouble avoiding his grenades in open field and denying him Barrier.  But dueling isn't what this topic is about.

[Jski.6180]

It is odd that this can still one shot even after the push to remove one shots from wvw. I think it just got a bit worst after scraper got another power dmg buff from the last update.

[Shroud.2307]

27 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

True, but the ultimate goal of 1-shot builds is to 1-shot the target on the first go.  How quickly they can spike again doesn't really matter if the success rate of the initial spike is high enough.  And in that regard, I think Engi's EE + GB bomb from stealth has the advantage.  Not to mention true 1-shot Thieves and Mesmers aren't really a thing anymore.

Hm, true. Honestly, I agree with everything you've said except for the last point. I know for a fact that both Thief and Mesmer can still one shot because I've both experienced and delivered it. 

But regardless, I'm not defending Grenade Scrappers. I do think it should be nerfed, I just dislike saying it because I know it'll end up hurting core Engi more. It feels like an unwinnable fight to keep Scrapper and Holo at a good area of balance without constantly kicking core while it's already down.
And to be clear, I don't think core Engi is unusable either. I play it regularly and feel that it's stronger than people give it credit for, but that doesn't mean it's desirable over the elites. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Shroud.2307

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

47 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

Hm, true. Honestly, I agree with everything you've said except for the last point. I know for a fact that both Thief and Mesmer can still one shot because I've both experienced and delivered it. 

 

Hmm, I guess they're along the lines of these?

 

Deadeye - SA Rifle Roamer

 

Mesmer - Core Shatter Roamer / Mirage - Shatter Mirage

 

I personally haven't been one-shot by either, so I imagine players skilled enough to pull off these bursts (based on the Usage steps in the links) are pretty rare.  Even the apparently easier of the two, DE's Death's Judgment burst, requires a bit of setup in the form of the Mark + Skirmisher's Shot spam + a telltale stealth just before the DJ.  There is plenty of counterplay to the DJ burst, the first of which is being immediately notified by the conspicuous sound and graphic of being Marked.

 

So while these "one shots" may theoretically still be possible, I have to think they're exceedingly rare due to both the skill and star alignment (particularly with the Mesmer burst) required, and counterplay available (the Mesmer burst has a huge telegraph and the Mark mechanic literally flags a DJ burst, which is also subject to all projectile hate and line of sight).

 

Engi EE + GB burst from stealth on the other hand is not so limited.  The build basically guarantees success against anyone caught off guard or otherwise preoccupied.  Stealth, press 1-button.  Win.

 

47 minutes ago, Shroud.2307 said:

But regardless, I'm not defending Grenade Scrappers. I do think it should be nerfed, I just dislike saying it because I know it'll end up hurting core Engi more. It feels like an unwinnable fight to keep Scrapper and Holo at a good area of balance without constantly kicking core while it's already down.
And to be clear, I don't think core Engi is unusable either. I play it regularly and feel that it's stronger than people give it credit for, but that doesn't mean it's desirable over the elites. 

 

I very much respect your candor regarding Grenade Scrappers and agree it's never ideal to nerf core specs to get at their elites.  Since both EE and GB are core traits/skills, I suppose theoretically the burst can be pulled off on core Engi as well, and probably would be if Holo and Scrapper weren't simply better specs to play all around due to increased offensive and defensive capabilities.

 

I think the problem really is that EE in combination with GB remains an outlier among WvW power levels.  Why Anet only toned it down in PvP and not WvW, I don't know.

 

Ultimately, I don't think it's healthy for anything to be able to 1-shot with ease, the way Grenade Engis currently can.  1-shots, if they must exist, should be reserved to those unicorn builds and scenarios that require some element of skillful execution and the right conditions (like the Mesmer and Thief 1-shot builds).

[Xenesis.6389]

Core mesmer was nerfed because of chrono and mirage. So what's the problem here?

 

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

22 minutes ago, Xenesis.6389 said:

Core mesmer was nerfed because of chrono and mirage. So what's the problem here?

 

Yeah that wasn't very nice.  Still, two wrongs don't make a right.  They should reign in the elites without hitting core if it doesn't need it.

[Xenesis.6389]

2 minutes ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

 

Yeah that wasn't very nice.  Still, two wrongs don't make a right.  They should reign in the elites without hitting core if it doesn't need it.

 

Yes they should balance elites to the core rather than the other way around, doesn't fix that mesmers have already been hit hard with nerfs, while this other class continues to be buffed despite already being strong and in the top meta. They already went down that road, now either treat every class evenly in that regard or fix their mess up.

[Chips.7968]

19 hours ago, displayname.8315 said:

The guy was playing a marauders deadeye so shouldn't he be shooting between invis-dodges.  I don't see the point of running a glass precision build why not use daredevil runes and run some kind of cavalier/valkyrie hybrid.

 

Sounds to me like he's not quick with positioning and probably getting mowed over after his first dodge.  Not used to the kneel mechanic, hasn't synergized the right utility skill yet, seen it before it's just a practice thing.

 

I asked a fairly specific question... which you've not answered. It was what's the engie traded off out of the "given up..." list you raised.

Edited August 31, 2021 by Chips.7968

[displayname.8315]

1 hour ago, Chips.7968 said:

I asked a fairly specific question... which you've not answered. It was what's the engie traded off out of the "given up..." list you raised.

Well they both are playing pretty squishy to get crits with high ferocity.  Did you watch the guys link?  It was his third day, he died with all 3 dodges, stood on top of the guy pressing 1 after a steal.  It was the third hit that actually killed him and the last 14k he was probably focused on.

 

He even has a nice build that he didnt use at all.. daggerstorm would have reflected.   A good portion of the daredevil elite is in the dodge traits that either damage or give fast movement and lay traps.  Should probably Bounding Dodger or whatever to start building strike dmg.  Signet of Agility if you get low on endurance or pick up too much condi during your bounding.  40% dodge regen food.. Superior Sigil of Energy  

 

And full marauders probably isn't the best way to go.

Edited August 31, 2021 by displayname.8315

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

I think there's some confusion about what happened in my clip.

 

On 8/30/2021 at 1:36 PM, displayname.8315 said:

The guy was playing a marauders deadeye so shouldn't he be shooting between invis-dodges.  I don't see the point of running a glass precision build why not use daredevil runes and run some kind of cavalier/valkyrie hybrid.

 

Sounds to me like he's not quick with positioning and probably getting mowed over after his first dodge.  Not used to the kneel mechanic, hasn't synergized the right utility skill yet, seen it before it's just a practice thing.

 

I was not playing Deadeye, but Daredevil.  I compared Explosive Entrance + Grenade Barrage stealth burst to pre-nerf Deadeye Malicious Backstab.  I mentioned that I never tried the latter as I only started playing DE a few days prior (long after it was nerfed).  But in the clip, I was on Daredevil, as you seem to recognize below:

 

On 8/31/2021 at 10:28 AM, displayname.8315 said:

Well they both are playing pretty squishy to get crits with high ferocity.  Did you watch the guys link?  It was his third day, he died with all 3 dodges, stood on top of the guy pressing 1 after a steal.  It was the third hit that actually killed him and the last 14k he was probably focused on.

 

He even has a nice build that he didnt use at all.. daggerstorm would have reflected.   A good portion of the daredevil elite is in the dodge traits that either damage or give fast movement and lay traps.  Should probably Bounding Dodger or whatever to start building strike dmg.  Signet of Agility if you get low on endurance or pick up too much condi during your bounding.  40% dodge regen food.. Superior Sigil of Energy  

 

And full marauders probably isn't the best way to go.

 

I started off fighting a Mithril Recruit Scrapper.  Did  Swipe + Backstab for a whopping 3,797, plus an extra 2,381 from siphoning traits and sigils.  While continuing to focus that Scrapper, I was stunned and downed in under a second (along with a teammate) by a second Scrapper (Gold Squire) who joined the fight in stealth.

 

I'm not saying I couldn't theoretically have used a stun break and avoided the stealth burst from another player I didn't even know was there.  But again, the time from stunned to downed was under a second.  I never claimed to be the best player, with the best reaction time, or to have the best ping, but what percentage of players do you realistically think would have avoided that burst in this situation?  I.e., already engaged in a fight, and then suddenly, they have a fraction of a second to react to a one-shot burst from nowhere.  Stun breaks are too valuable to waste on every CC.  When I was stunned, the Mithril Recruit I was fighting was retreating.  I was also near full health, so I didn't feel the need to immediately blow a stun break.  I had no idea another Scrapper joined the fight in stealth to one-shot me and a teammate from nearly full health.

 

"It was the third hit that actually killed him and the last 14k he was probably focused on." -- I'm not sure how you came up with this.  What put me into downed state was the approximately 20k (14k landed prior to downed) EE + GB stealth burst from the second Scrapper.  It's this burst that is the subject of this discussion and that many here have suggested is overpowered and too easy to pull off relative to everything else in WvW.

 

You keep characterizing my build as a glass cannon.  Well, for all its glass cannon-ness the best it could do was 6,178 (3,797 Backstab plus 2,381 via investment in siphoning traits and sigils for a little extra damage) on a single target with a perfectly executed Backstab (which actually requires proper positioning and being able to see through the visual clutter, unlike EE + GB).  Can you imagine how much lower the damage would be if I switched to tankier stats and runes as you suggested?

 

Now compare that to the one-shot Scrapper build, which surely is squishy and invested into damage, but at least reliably dishes out 20k to up to five players in an AOE, with no skill required other than creeping up on them in stealth while they're preoccupied, and pressing one button.  As others have said, this is simply broken.  Other builds have long been nerfed to end this sort of thing.  The grenade burst was already nerfed in PvP.  There's no reason it shouldn't be addressed in WvW as well.

 

Edited September 1, 2021 by Twilight Tempest.7584
added link to original post

[displayname.8315]

1 hour ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

When I was stunned, the Mithril Recruit I was fighting was retreating.  I was also near full health, so I didn't feel the need to immediately blow a stun break.  I had no idea another Scrapper joined the fight in stealth to one-shot me and a teammate from nearly full health.

 

You keep characterizing my build as a glass cannon.

Yeah that scourge ran into it too.  Didn't see any shades going down and he didn't put any barrier on you.. guess he's going for something different.  He did have sandshroud up and then maybe also pressing 1+W.

 

That turn after you scored backstab could have been replaced by a backwards attacking dodge for the +10% dmg buff, or just decided not to hang onto your daggerstorm and spin on him.  That's one of the big differences with a good hit and run thief is you can't get reflected.  Putting down a reflect field can really mess up a group if someone is spamming grenades.  It might have killed them both. 

 

If you are going for a glass cannon full Valkyrie + Daredevil runes or some other guarenteed crit would net you more ferocity and more power.. by a good bit i think im not a number cruncher. 

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

9 hours ago, displayname.8315 said:

That turn after you scored backstab could have been replaced by a backwards attacking dodge for the +10% dmg buff, or just decided not to hang onto your daggerstorm and spin on him.

 

Yeah I might need to use Daggerstorm more offensively against nade engis.  I tend to save it for rangers, one of which did show up in that fight as I died.  I don't slot Bounding Dodger though.  I'm too addicted to Unhindered Combatant.

 

9 hours ago, displayname.8315 said:

 

If you are going for a glass cannon full Valkyrie + Daredevil runes or some other guarenteed crit would net you more ferocity and more power.. by a good bit i think im not a number cruncher. 

 

Interesting idea.  I might have to give it a try.  Wish I had legendary armor for easier experimenting. 😅

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

Some time about half a year ago I was leading a squad, and since I tend to only run at nights my squads are often very small, usually just a few parties' worth at most. Well a Scrapper kept following us around and harassing us from inside the objectives we'd try to take, and they would just pop out sometimes, down players then disappear again.

 

Even as a Commander I don't see this kind of thing that often. I believe I've encountered it maybe two or three times, but its dangerous when a single player can take out half your comp. We tried everything to deal with it, including having the Firebrand spam Aegis, but the Grenade Barrage hits multiple times, so it always got someone.

 

Even measures like laying down alot of Fear didn't work because they'd just have a ton of Stability, and spamming AoE Reveals couldn't make the player visible in time to stop the nearly instant(?) barrage. Imagine if there had been other enemies around; this one player would've turned the entire battle by theirself.

 

I think the only way we eventually got them was to immediately corrupt all their boons with multiple corruption wells, the only thing that could react fast enough to a player showing up out of thin air. But this was in a fort where we could know where they were going to come out in stealth.

 

I've never run this build myself, so I don't entirely understand how it works. But I understand its completely dependant on needing to enter and exit combat quickly, as its literally a one-hit wonder.

 

Still, its probably too strong given that the Scrapper has the defenses to run away from pretty much any fight and reset, and pretty much always engages from stealth.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Dawdler.8521]

3 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

Some time about half a year ago I was leading a squad, and since I tend to only run at nights my squads are often very small, usually just a few parties' worth at most. Well a Scrapper kept following us around and harassing us from inside the objectives we'd try to take, and they would just pop out sometimes, down players then disappear again.

 

Even as a Commander I don't see this kind of thing that often. I believe I've encountered it maybe two or three times, but its dangerous when a single player can take out half your comp. We tried everything to deal with it, including having the Firebrand spam Aegis, but the Grenade Barrage hits multiple times, so it always got someone.

 

Even measures like laying down alot of Fear didn't work because they'd just have a ton of Stability, and spamming AoE Reveals couldn't make the player visible in time to stop the nearly instant(?) barrage. Imagine if there had been other enemies around; this one player would've turned the entire battle by theirself.

 

I think the only way we eventually got them was to immediately corrupt all their boons with multiple corruption wells, the only thing that could react fast enough to a player showing up out of thin air. But this was in a fort where we could know where they were going to come out in stealth.

 

I've never run this build myself, so I don't entirely understand how it works. But I understand its completely dependant on needing to enter and exit combat quickly, as its literally a one-hit wonder.

 

Still, its probably too strong given that the Scrapper has the defenses to run away from pretty much any fight and reset, and pretty much always engages from stealth.

Your situation could have easily been avoided with a 2-3 man focus group in the commander squad. You'd maybe loose someone - ie "the bait" - but if they are good enough they'll keep harassers busy or maybe even kill them. Usually in this situation a pull or two will be enough to get people on the wrong side of a larger group.

If you had a focus group well they did a poor job. Or that scrapper was just that much better in which case it would have made little difference regardless of class.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Dawdler.8521

[SoftFootpaws.9134]

29 minutes ago, Dawdler.8521 said:

Your situation could have easily been avoided with a 2-3 man focus group in the commander squad. You'd maybe loose someone - ie "the bait" - but if they are good enough they'll keep harassers busy or maybe even kill them. Usually in this situation a pull or two will be enough to get people on the wrong side of a larger group.

If you had a focus group well they did a poor job. Or that scrapper was just that much better in which case it would have made little difference regardless of class.

I mostly lead players who never have a commander on in their time zone, which means alot of roamers and other inexperienced players, so the degree of squad coordination is very limited.

 

But my experience doesn't seem too inconsistent with other thoughts from this thread.

Edited September 2, 2021 by Hannelore.8153

[Dawdler.8521]

14 hours ago, Hannelore.8153 said:

I mostly lead players who never have a commander on in their time zone, which means alot of roamers and other inexperienced players, so the degree of squad coordination is very limited.

 

But my experience doesn't seem too inconsistent with other thoughts from this thread.

Well then you shouldnt expect much from your squad, lol. In this situation any good player on any class will be a major obstacle because contrary to popular belief, skill actually matters alot in GW2. And I'm not talking just mechanical skill, tactical too such as knowing how far you can push in this situation and who to target so its effective rather than wasted. That it happened to be a grenade scrapper was just random.

[Aeolus.3615]

Nades are strong super strong burst but,, tiny pp damage!

 

Maybe the issue with nades its the fly time afected by quickness and how they are used on melee range (since it kinda hides the animation IMO)?

 

 

 

^

im playing arround this build on my alternate acocunt :P still practicing

 

 

Edited September 3, 2021 by Aeolus.3615

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

41 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

Nades are strong super strong burst but,, tiny pp damage!

 

Maybe the issue with nades its the fly time afected by quickness and how they are used on melee range (since it kinda hides the animation IMO)?

 

^ Not to mention coming from stealth.

 

41 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

 

 

^

im playing arround this build on my alternate acocunt 😛 still practicing

 

 

 

^ Requires a lot more setup than nade engi burst at least.

[Aeolus.3615]

1 minute ago, Twilight Tempest.7584 said:

 

^ Not to mention coming from stealth.

 

 

^ Requires a lot more setup than nade engi burst at least.

 

interesting i totatlly forgot about it.

Q: I dont recall but if the engie  use nades does that also makes nades delayed to render on enemy or wont render at all?

[Twilight Tempest.7584]

12 minutes ago, Aeolus.3615 said:

 

interesting i totatlly forgot about it.

Q: I dont recall but if the engie  use nades does that also makes nades delayed to render on enemy or wont render at all?

 

Not sure about delays, but if you're able to watch my clip frame by frame, the nades do appear out of thin air since the Scrapper is stealthed.  It's so fast and there is so much visual noise in the scene, there is no way anyone would see them in the actual encounter.  They appear and detonate within exactly 6 frames, or 0.2 seconds.  Unfortunately I do not have god-level reaction time and ping.