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  • Xca.9721Xca.9721 Member ✭✭✭

    I skip this fractal not because it is hard, but because it is really annoying to play and honestly not worth the time and effort. Creating an LFG "CMs +T4 (except Sirens)" fills up quick most of the time.

  • Oogabooga.3812Oogabooga.3812 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 23, 2020

    My group recently finished it with quick brand, banner slave, power/boon strip reaper, and a heal scourge. Our alacrigade PUG died right as the boss spawned, so we 4-manned it. Our success was due to 2 main things: we cleaved down most of the adds and avoided the winds. We didn’t dodge the stun shot, didn’t dodge the red circle, and stacked when we could for green circles. It was by far the smoothest run ever of the t4 siren’s reef.

  • Besetment.9187Besetment.9187 Member ✭✭
    edited April 25, 2020

    HBs and Alacrigades are all over T4 pugs. Its pretty hard to join a T4 pug that doesn't have at least a HB. If your team is wiping, ask you HB to Wall of Reflection, Tome 3.3 and Shield 5 since reflects are super strong. They don't need bane signet here because the boss has no breakbar so its a perfect opportunity to sub in Wall of Reflection. Reflects almost completely negate incoming damage from adds and allows your whole team to ignore them. Also ask your Alacrigade to go Kalla/Mallyx and pulse resistance (Pain Absorption). If you don't have an Alacrigade your HB can also tome 3.4. Your whole team can ignore the condition spam.

    Beyond that its just moving the red circles to the corners, stacking on the green circles and saving your dodges for when your positioning sucks and you can't walk out of the ghostly wind. If the adds build up too much, your HB can Tome 1.3 and Axe 3 to pull some of the adds onto Captain Crowe so you cleave them down with the boss.

    Some instabilities like social awkwardness make this fight messy because in pugs for some crazy reason, people play the game like its Overwatch and they need to ADAD dodge spam like they are trying to avoid headshots. Except it really does nothing except lower your group DPS and social awkwardness just pushes your teammates into ghostly wind. If that is happening, ask them to chill and stand still. Trust your supports to do their job and save your dodges for the wind.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2020

    It is actually one of the best fractals out there.. It just asks a little bit more of concentration and skill.. Instabilities can make it a little tricky though. But even the benchmark thingy is not very necessary here... Just think outside of the box.. For example reaper can change one of the damaging skills with "Rise" which makes wonders in that bossfight. Or using offmeta chrono to pull adds to the boss then cc and cleave.. There are many options. Just because it is a fight that needs a little use of brains and mechanics stresses everyone.. It is the BEST fractal, because it is actually fun to play and has mechanics not just pew pew and get your gold.
    Oh and to all the people getting frustrated of dying there. Here is my biggest tip: What kills most newbies on the ship is the unblockable wind that pushes people to the water. Even the best players can missplay and fall to the water... But WHEN YOU GET OUT OF THE WATER WAIT A FEW SECS FOR "CONFUSION CONDI" TO DROP OFF BEFORE USING SKILLS !!!

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    I propose making more fractals like Siren's Reef and less like Solid Ocean.

  • Oogabooga.3812Oogabooga.3812 Member ✭✭✭

    @Armen.1483 said:
    I propose making more fractals like Siren's Reef and less like Solid Ocean.

    Funny thing about that solid ocean one: it used to be easier. They revamped it to the beast of a fractal it is today.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 28, 2020

    @Oogabooga.3812 said:
    Funny thing about that solid ocean one: it used to be easier. They revamped it to the beast of a fractal it is today.

    It is not only about easy and hard... In my honest opinion Solid ocean is very easy and will be like that unless fully reworked. Sometimes we take people from our guild who have 0 ar to Solid ocean when it's daily. It is pretty much doable by 2 people. The only thing you gotta do is to gather all crystals to one place and when the tenticle near it spawns oneshot it. That is just boring and unfun, while Siren's Reef makes ppl do mechanics and actually do stuff.

  • YtseJam.9784YtseJam.9784 Member ✭✭✭

    This fractal is the reason I started running fractals as scourge. I find it very useful to run as condi scourge with barrier heal/condi cleanse (top-top-top), spectral grasp and epi spam. Makes it go so much easier and the damage numbers are great, 32k-38k while helping the group stay alive.

  • Clyan.1593Clyan.1593 Member ✭✭✭

    With cms groups you just vaporize her. However visually its really offputting. So much going on. Trashmobs, boss herself, orange telegraphing for blowing lines, her huge stun, the shark circle + the green circle, and all of that on a tiny space. Even the fractal cm bosses are visually better.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 23, 2020

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    Can I complete with a decent group?
    Yeah sure I can, but compared to other fractals it is just really frustrating to go through and can really be one that makes or breaks a group that is just your average T4 fractal group as opposed to a "We need this this and this, don't have it don't join" sort of thing.

    The smaller platform size compared to other fights, combined with so many different AOE types and all those diggity dang mobs pushing you and not a real way or mechanic type to prevent certain things just really makes for the worst fractal boss fight I have experienced.

    Bring Forth The Tempest, seems like the perfect triggering line for unlocking the stun bar and preventing a few series series of strong gusts.

    Having both the damaging AOE drop and the shark to share, while those are fine, with all the other AOE clutter on this stage, it often makes for a confusing time when you add the adds that you have to deal with, or suffer. There is just so much visual clutter going on with the tempest, the cone, the condition bomb, the shark, the enemies regular aoe attacks. It's christmas light vomit on my eye balls. The amount of times someone is running away with the green simply because there is just too much going on, too much visual clutter all in a very small space. Not to mention your team dealing damage and their AOE effects to add to that vomit of light.

    I would like to see more love given to the condition bomb as a mechanic of dealing with the mobs, drop it on the ramps when you have it, and it will kill mobs while it exists there.

    I know there is going to be a lot of:
    "Git Gud" type responses, and as I said it's not that I can't get a group to get through it. I do get through it well enough.
    But the experience feels unenjoyable, stressful because there is no way to prevent certain aspects and just the all around confusion with the visual clutter in a small space is so much.

    I can't think of many fighting spaces as small as the ship that have that same level of clutter. Usually it's all well spaced out, there are few AOE's happening at once but letting them happen or not working around them properly can be catastrophic (eg. The first fight in The Shattered Observatory with the orbs that you have to hit away or your whole team gets knocked back and potentially knocked off due to the size of it's explosion when dead centre)

    I am not saying remove what's there, just rework some of it for different purposes.

    What do you guys think?
    What would improve the experience for you?
    Etc

    Are you just trying to lol dps the boss without dealing with adds? In t4 is it not reasonable to just kill the adds? On lower levels it's actually a really easy fight if adds are down. The adds are intended to be killed imo. It's fine if you juke with profession mechanics (reflects or aoe), but just fyi, there may be a more fool proof way. Every time i've done this fractal people look at me like i'm an alien when i say we should do this, but when they listen we usually down it just fine.

  • ArchonWing.9480ArchonWing.9480 Member ✭✭✭✭

    So> @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    Can I complete with a decent group?
    Yeah sure I can, but compared to other fractals it is just really frustrating to go through and can really be one that makes or breaks a group that is just your average T4 fractal group as opposed to a "We need this this and this, don't have it don't join" sort of thing.

    The smaller platform size compared to other fights, combined with so many different AOE types and all those diggity dang mobs pushing you and not a real way or mechanic type to prevent certain things just really makes for the worst fractal boss fight I have experienced.

    Bring Forth The Tempest, seems like the perfect triggering line for unlocking the stun bar and preventing a few series series of strong gusts.

    Having both the damaging AOE drop and the shark to share, while those are fine, with all the other AOE clutter on this stage, it often makes for a confusing time when you add the adds that you have to deal with, or suffer. There is just so much visual clutter going on with the tempest, the cone, the condition bomb, the shark, the enemies regular aoe attacks. It's christmas light vomit on my eye balls. The amount of times someone is running away with the green simply because there is just too much going on, too much visual clutter all in a very small space. Not to mention your team dealing damage and their AOE effects to add to that vomit of light.

    I would like to see more love given to the condition bomb as a mechanic of dealing with the mobs, drop it on the ramps when you have it, and it will kill mobs while it exists there.

    I know there is going to be a lot of:
    "Git Gud" type responses, and as I said it's not that I can't get a group to get through it. I do get through it well enough.
    But the experience feels unenjoyable, stressful because there is no way to prevent certain aspects and just the all around confusion with the visual clutter in a small space is so much.

    I can't think of many fighting spaces as small as the ship that have that same level of clutter. Usually it's all well spaced out, there are few AOE's happening at once but letting them happen or not working around them properly can be catastrophic (eg. The first fight in The Shattered Observatory with the orbs that you have to hit away or your whole team gets knocked back and potentially knocked off due to the size of it's explosion when dead centre)

    I am not saying remove what's there, just rework some of it for different purposes.

    What do you guys think?
    What would improve the experience for you?
    Etc

    Are you just trying to lol dps the boss without dealing with adds? In t4 is it not reasonable to just kill the adds? On lower levels it's actually a really easy fight if adds are down. The adds are intended to be killed imo. It's fine if you juke with profession mechanics (reflects or aoe), but just fyi, there may be a more fool proof way. Every time i've done this fractal people look at me like i'm an alien when i say we should do this, but when they listen we usually down it just fine.

    Yea, that's actually right, and why cleave classes do well on the fractal.

    Some may say "muh t4s" but if the party can't handle it, they shouldn't mind dropping a level or so.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    Funny thing with pugging in this fractal is that you know you're going to struggle on the boss fight when everybody starts spawning and focusing mobs in the Treasure Maze.

  • Tiilimon.6094Tiilimon.6094 Member ✭✭✭

    Definitely my favourite fight as a condi cleanse healer, wish the devs would focus on making a lot more content like this. It punishes lazyness and rewards evasion with as little movement as possible. Havent found a pug so far that cant finish it after a few tries.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Tiilimon.6094 said:
    Definitely my favourite fight as a condi cleanse healer, wish the devs would focus on making a lot more content like this. It punishes lazyness and rewards evasion with as little movement as possible. Havent found a pug so far that cant finish it after a few tries.

    But isnt having a healer the definition of laziness?

  • hellsqueen.3045hellsqueen.3045 Member ✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    Can I complete with a decent group?
    Yeah sure I can, but compared to other fractals it is just really frustrating to go through and can really be one that makes or breaks a group that is just your average T4 fractal group as opposed to a "We need this this and this, don't have it don't join" sort of thing.

    The smaller platform size compared to other fights, combined with so many different AOE types and all those diggity dang mobs pushing you and not a real way or mechanic type to prevent certain things just really makes for the worst fractal boss fight I have experienced.

    Bring Forth The Tempest, seems like the perfect triggering line for unlocking the stun bar and preventing a few series series of strong gusts.

    Having both the damaging AOE drop and the shark to share, while those are fine, with all the other AOE clutter on this stage, it often makes for a confusing time when you add the adds that you have to deal with, or suffer. There is just so much visual clutter going on with the tempest, the cone, the condition bomb, the shark, the enemies regular aoe attacks. It's christmas light vomit on my eye balls. The amount of times someone is running away with the green simply because there is just too much going on, too much visual clutter all in a very small space. Not to mention your team dealing damage and their AOE effects to add to that vomit of light.

    I would like to see more love given to the condition bomb as a mechanic of dealing with the mobs, drop it on the ramps when you have it, and it will kill mobs while it exists there.

    I know there is going to be a lot of:
    "Git Gud" type responses, and as I said it's not that I can't get a group to get through it. I do get through it well enough.
    But the experience feels unenjoyable, stressful because there is no way to prevent certain aspects and just the all around confusion with the visual clutter in a small space is so much.

    I can't think of many fighting spaces as small as the ship that have that same level of clutter. Usually it's all well spaced out, there are few AOE's happening at once but letting them happen or not working around them properly can be catastrophic (eg. The first fight in The Shattered Observatory with the orbs that you have to hit away or your whole team gets knocked back and potentially knocked off due to the size of it's explosion when dead centre)

    I am not saying remove what's there, just rework some of it for different purposes.

    What do you guys think?
    What would improve the experience for you?
    Etc

    Are you just trying to lol dps the boss without dealing with adds? In t4 is it not reasonable to just kill the adds? On lower levels it's actually a really easy fight if adds are down. The adds are intended to be killed imo. It's fine if you juke with profession mechanics (reflects or aoe), but just fyi, there may be a more fool proof way. Every time i've done this fractal people look at me like i'm an alien when i say we should do this, but when they listen we usually down it just fine.

    No, we are not just "LOL DPSING"
    Since corona had forced a lot of people to stay home, I managed to run fractals with a full group or near full group (which likely will not be possible any longer). And we usually were all in voice comms.

    I play tempest healer, which has helped in general across all the fractals because of certain instabilities because the auras are really useful.
    We had a chrono main, who would take both the quickness and alacrity wells, because I would use sandsquall to help them keep up on both instead of them taking mimic and specializing in one.
    We had a condi firebrand, who would switch to their healing book whenever I asked or they felt like we needed the F2-5 skill to increase healing received.
    Then we had a power weaver/tempest, they would switch based on what they felt like playing or enjoyed best.
    And we would either get our friend who also either played condi firebrand or condi necro, or we would grab a pug.

    We had enough between the first 3 players to cover everything that people said get gud about this fractal.
    We weren't wiping or anything, but we all still collectively sighed about this fractal every single time.
    Just because we had a build between us that made this just fine to do, doesn't mean we think it's a good fractal.

    I stand by it, the design is still absolutely horrible.
    Your regular tier 4's should not make you feel like you need to ask for the same classes over and over again.
    HB, AlacR and DPS.
    But more than that, no one has anything to say about all the AOE clutter both in their ability and the visual mess all on a small space beyond "it's just challenging, get gud"
    Sorry, that isn't really a good enough excuse as to why it should stay like that.

    As someone else mentioned:

    @Clyan.1593 said:
    With cms groups you just vaporize her. However visually its really offputting. So much going on. Trashmobs, boss herself, orange telegraphing for blowing lines, her huge stun, the shark circle + the green circle, and all of that on a tiny space. Even the fractal cm bosses are visually better.

    The CM version of the Virastraa fight is filled with so much extra stuff and yet still it feels so much better than this fractal's boss fight simply because the space to work with is better. The only way you could warrant having all of that clutter is if the platform was bigger.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • Tiilimon.6094Tiilimon.6094 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Tiilimon.6094 said:
    Definitely my favourite fight as a condi cleanse healer, wish the devs would focus on making a lot more content like this. It punishes lazyness and rewards evasion with as little movement as possible. Havent found a pug so far that cant finish it after a few tries.

    But isnt having a healer the definition of laziness?

    with my apm higher than when i used to play starcraft it definitely doesnt feel lazy.

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    HB, AlacR and DPS.

    Until ANET makes it possible for group quickness up time to be sustained by something other than a Firebrand, and Alacrity up time as easily maintained by something other than a Diviner Renegade, nothing is going to change.

    Well, either that or ANET just removes Quickness and Alacrity from the game completely.

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    But more than that, no one has anything to say about all the AOE clutter both in their ability and the visual mess all on a small space beyond "it's just challenging, get gud"
    Sorry, that isn't really a good enough excuse as to why it should stay like that.

    Because what is the point? You I'm sure are aware that it isn't just Siren's where this 'AOE clutter' is an issue. A few days back on some fractal I forget we had the insta Fractal Convergence, and during a 'splashy' moment, I got insta-downed, and I had no idea from what. I checked the combat log, and the Champion Rabbit that I never even saw jumpkicked me for 52k....

    I can't even say for how long this particular problem has been complained about, and yet ANET does little to address it. In a game which demands you be reactive with dodging, the difficulty we have just seeing the boss and their animations is puzzling to me.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    I play tempest healer, which has helped in general across all the fractals because of certain instabilities because the auras are really useful.
    We had a chrono main, who would take both the quickness and alacrity wells, because I would use sandsquall to help them keep up on both instead of them taking mimic and specializing in one.
    We had a condi firebrand, who would switch to their healing book whenever I asked or they felt like we needed the F2-5 skill to increase healing received.
    Then we had a power weaver/tempest, they would switch based on what they felt like playing or enjoyed best.
    And we would either get our friend who also either played condi firebrand or condi necro, or we would grab a pug.

    We had enough between the first 3 players to cover everything that people said get gud about this fractal.
    We weren't wiping or anything, but we all still collectively sighed about this fractal every single time.
    Just because we had a build between us that made this just fine to do, doesn't mean we think it's a good fractal.

    I stand by it, the design is still absolutely horrible.

    Maybe. Just maybe it is not the design that is terrible. Maybe it is your teamcomp. I agree with you that it is unfun that we can't viably play anything we want anywhere. But it is not fractal's problem. It is a much deeper problem. Many answered very well here.

    I would suggest instead of asking devs to adapt fractals for you, you could instead adapt yourself to fractals.

    Having said that, even if playing Meta is the optimal way, it is not at all the only way. It doesn't mean that you should run to tier4 fractals with just random builds and hope to beat those. It would be no fun. BUT you can run any fractals and the same CMs with non meta groups. Your group however is very badly organized I must say. If you went DPS tempest, chrono went dps, firebrand went heal, and scourge went power reaper it would be way more optimised. Or Heal tempest, support chrono, firebrand swaps to DH and goes power, and the rest fiilled with any POWER (not condi) dps. Still offmeta, still not very optimised, but would much better than your current setups and you could even do CMs with those with no problems. You have to adapt a lil bit if you wanna succeed and it is also fun and refreshing to play something different every once in a while.
    In the end if you absolutely don't wanna change your builds and team comp, it is your fault not fractal's design. In that case you are not playing fractals, you are just roleplaying. If you still absoleutely wanna stick to your playstiles... Well there is tier 3 for you.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Armen.1483 said:
    ...firebrand swaps to DH and goes power...

    That is a very common error most players have. Cfb is busted in every gamemode. You need a very high dps group with extremely short phases for cfb to be bad even in cms. Im talking about 3sec phases here.
    Cfb gets better than dh as soon as resets and longer phases happen which is probably almost every normal fractal. It is also by far the strongest build you can bring into sirens reef.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 26, 2020

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Armen.1483 said:
    ...firebrand swaps to DH and goes power...

    That is a very common error most players have. Cfb is busted in every gamemode. You need a very high dps group with extremely short phases for cfb to be bad even in cms. Im talking about 3sec phases here.
    Cfb gets better than dh as soon as resets and longer phases happen which is probably almost every normal fractal. It is also by far the strongest build you can bring into sirens reef.

    Well I didn't say that CFB is a bad class, but why it is an error ? Please be more clear. I know that burn condi ramps fast, but its not about that. You don't need quickness if you got support chrono in team. So why sacrifice damage and utility ? Dragonhunter got traps and pulls which help a lot in this fractal.
    What about CMs. Well in very good groups I've heard ppl swap pfirebrands to dragonhunters with feel my wrath if they clear faster than quickness drops. Condi Firebrand is a good class, but In my experience DH works better on arabella if someone already covers quickness.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Armen.1483 said:
    Well I didn't say that CFB is a bad class, but why it is an error ? Please be more clear. I know that burn condi ramps fast, but its not about that. You don't need quickness if you got support chrono in team. So why sacrifice damage and utility ? Dragonhunter got traps and pulls which help a lot in this fractal.
    What about CMs. Well in very good groups I've heard ppl swap pfirebrands to dragonhunters with feel my wrath if they clear faster than quickness drops. Condi Firebrand is a good class, but In my experience DH works better on arabella if someone already covers quickness.

    You dont sacrifice damage. Cfb does far more damage to the boss than dh ever could. It has also higher cleave and more utility. Just try it its so busted. quickness cfb is already better than pfb in basically every pug cm group. The burns ramp up really fast. you can get 80k+ bursts at skorvald with it.
    The quarter masters reset the tome which boosts dps into absurd levels. In most kills you enter the tome like 4 times in a row spending almost no time on your normal weapon set. There is no way a dh coud keep up with that.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Armen.1483 said:
    Well I didn't say that CFB is a bad class, but why it is an error ? Please be more clear. I know that burn condi ramps fast, but its not about that. You don't need quickness if you got support chrono in team. So why sacrifice damage and utility ? Dragonhunter got traps and pulls which help a lot in this fractal.
    What about CMs. Well in very good groups I've heard ppl swap pfirebrands to dragonhunters with feel my wrath if they clear faster than quickness drops. Condi Firebrand is a good class, but In my experience DH works better on arabella if someone already covers quickness.

    You dont sacrifice damage. Cfb does far more damage to the boss than dh ever could. It has also higher cleave and more utility. Just try it its so busted. quickness cfb is already better than pfb in basically every pug cm group. The burns ramp up really fast. you can get 80k+ bursts at skorvald with it.
    The quarter masters reset the tome which boosts dps into absurd levels. In most kills you enter the tome like 4 times in a row spending almost no time on your normal weapon set. There is no way a dh coud keep up with that.

    I am not saying you're wrong. Ofc hfb got good damage, but many other classes have better damage. I am pretty sure power DH got more damage than cfb in this meta. The reason we run fb is to have quickness. But when quickness is not needed (when you have support chrono for example), dh (or actually any other meta dps) wil be better. With fb you got your elite slot wasted as no feel my wrath nor stab is needed here. With DH you got greatsword to be able to pull adds and Dragon's Maw to cc and damage em.
    On any other cases when heal is covered or not needed, but your group needs quickness, condi firebrand you go. If I hadn't tried it many times I wouldn't advise it.
    On the other hand to be entierly fair, yes they could run condi firebrand, but it will be less optimal for the post owner's team comp. Firebrand to dh change was the least important change I offered. I still think DH will be better in this comp. Got it from my personal experience with playing with support chronos and offmeta comps.

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited May 27, 2020

    I kind of enjoy this fractal, but it is one of those fractals where pugs often start dropping like flies (T3 and T4). The combination of instabilities and conditions, wrecks havoc on players with insufficient defense. And the huge number of things to dodge, punishes dodge spamming. You have to be strategic when you dodge and when you walk.

    The fight gets a lot easier when you focus a bit on the additional enemies that spawn, and clear them before focusing on the boss. It is also important to coordinate people to get on top of that green circle when it appears. Also, players have to avoid getting blown off the ship every time. I've encountered numerous players at fractal difficulties T3 and T4, who still didn't get the basic mechanics. Those are the kinds of players who really should be practicing this fractal at a lower difficulty first.

  • hellsqueen.3045hellsqueen.3045 Member ✭✭✭

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:
    I play tempest healer, which has helped in general across all the fractals because of certain instabilities because the auras are really useful.
    We had a chrono main, who would take both the quickness and alacrity wells, because I would use sandsquall to help them keep up on both instead of them taking mimic and specializing in one.
    We had a condi firebrand, who would switch to their healing book whenever I asked or they felt like we needed the F2-5 skill to increase healing received.
    Then we had a power weaver/tempest, they would switch based on what they felt like playing or enjoyed best.
    And we would either get our friend who also either played condi firebrand or condi necro, or we would grab a pug.

    We had enough between the first 3 players to cover everything that people said get gud about this fractal.
    We weren't wiping or anything, but we all still collectively sighed about this fractal every single time.
    Just because we had a build between us that made this just fine to do, doesn't mean we think it's a good fractal.

    I stand by it, the design is still absolutely horrible.

    Maybe. Just maybe it is not the design that is terrible. Maybe it is your teamcomp. I agree with you that it is unfun that we can't viably play anything we want anywhere. But it is not fractal's problem. It is a much deeper problem. Many answered very well here.

    I would suggest instead of asking devs to adapt fractals for you, you could instead adapt yourself to fractals.

    Having said that, even if playing Meta is the optimal way, it is not at all the only way. It doesn't mean that you should run to tier4 fractals with just random builds and hope to beat those. It would be no fun. BUT you can run any fractals and the same CMs with non meta groups. Your group however is very badly organized I must say. If you went DPS tempest, chrono went dps, firebrand went heal, and scourge went power reaper it would be way more optimised. Or Heal tempest, support chrono, firebrand swaps to DH and goes power, and the rest fiilled with any POWER (not condi) dps. Still offmeta, still not very optimised, but would much better than your current setups and you could even do CMs with those with no problems. You have to adapt a lil bit if you wanna succeed and it is also fun and refreshing to play something different every once in a while.
    In the end if you absolutely don't wanna change your builds and team comp, it is your fault not fractal's design. In that case you are not playing fractals, you are just roleplaying. If you still absoleutely wanna stick to your playstiles... Well there is tier 3 for you.

    I literally said in my post that our team comp that I sent actually worked fine. In fact it was better than fine.

    The Harrier Tempest healer is strong and compliments the Diviner Power Chrono really well. And the CFB is strong as hell, they hit for nearly 30k all of the time and the lowest they tend to go is 20k. And they don't have a slow start up time so they are as good if not better than having a power DPS. Our weaver was next in damage usually getting to about 20k and the necro above 15k but even when we pugged for DPS they didn't disappoint damage wise.

    This comp is actually really good, the issue is that it requires even more team work and communication, because I need the FB to use the healing book for one ability when things are just a tad too much, and we rotate out our reflects etc.

    This has been our most successful team comp and it has been really good.

    Only catch is, that one of them has gone back to school and another work which means our schedules no longer align midweek to do the fractals and these classes aren't what people LFG for. I know I could heal pugs, but that doesn't mean they want me in the group, etc.

    I am not asking for the fractals to be catered to me, I am asking them to make it better for all classes to have more of a place by putting in mechanics for people to do rather than for them to use a class to just ignore.

    I am asking them to not fill a small space with a huge amount of clutter.
    (Which considering we have people in the world who may have visual impairment or difficulty with certain movements very rapidly or with precision, having a larger platform would be really helpful. I don't think it is too much to ask to give a little more room to move.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    I literally said in my post that our team comp that I sent actually worked fine. In fact it was better than fine.

    Well and you also said that you have trouble clearing siren's reef. For me it translates into: your comp doesn't work well.

    The Harrier Tempest healer is strong and compliments the Diviner Power Chrono really well. And the CFB is strong as hell, they hit for nearly 30k all of the time and the lowest they tend to go is 20k. And they don't have a slow start up time so they are as good if not better than having a power DPS. Our weaver was next in damage usually getting to about 20k and the necro above 15k but even when we pugged for DPS they didn't disappoint damage wise.

    I am not quite sure if those numbers say anything important or if I could relate them to anything. This is the outgoing dps (aoe included), not the dps cpt Crowe gets (it should be way lower). Ele and necro (especially necro) getting outtdpsed by a CFB is problematic though. Normally killing cpt crowe shouldn't take more than a minute, if you beat her under a minute your dps is fine. But it is not only about dps. See when I say you should change fb to power DH is because of the DH's elite skill and his greatsword's ability to pull mobs to boss (so you clear em fast), and condi scourge (which is a joke in fractals) should go power reaper (which is one of the best if not the best dps in normal t4s) AND reaper got "rise" ability that will bump up your suriviability here by a lot. "Rise" is literally created for this encounter. The thing with firebrand using tome 2 to bump tempest's healing is just roleplaying and will complicate the thing for no reason imo, that same skill could be better used for regular condicleansing if ppl fall into the water much.
    Again if I stop being a perfectionnist and stop trying to give advice on utility and gameplay. You can ignore everything that I said it will not change things drasticly (I still highly recommend you do those), BUT I still gotta say that the condi scourge in your team is hurting my eyes =) I am pretty sure he is the main force that is dragging you down. Condi scourge there is a dead weight that you are carrying and a fractal that is a liiiiiiil bit more difficult than average becomes annoying because of that.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Armen.1483 said:
    This is the outgoing dps (aoe included), not the dps cpt Crowe gets (it should be way lower). Ele and necro (especially necro) getting outtdpsed by a CFB is problematic though.

    No it really isn't. Fb has to fail a lot of things to get outdamaged by anything on that boss. Cfb has also higher boss dps than dh to begin with and he gets constant tome resets to push this into ridiculous levels and condis ignore prot. Dh cant even stand properly inside the hitbox because of dazes.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:

    @Armen.1483 said:
    This is the outgoing dps (aoe included), not the dps cpt Crowe gets (it should be way lower). Ele and necro (especially necro) getting outtdpsed by a CFB is problematic though.

    No it really isn't. Fb has to fail a lot of things to get outdamaged by anything on that boss. Cfb has also higher boss dps than dh to begin with and he gets constant tome resets to push this into ridiculous levels and condis ignore prot. Dh cant even stand properly inside the hitbox because of dazes.

    We got it you like cfb lol. Have you ever played anything else as dps there ? Do you have any dps report where an experienced fb does twice the dps than an experienced necro ? I have seen some dps differences of classic dps classes, but twice the difference is just ridiculous. Would be nice to see a proof of what you're saying.

  • Besetment.9187Besetment.9187 Member ✭✭
    edited May 28, 2020

    You should try Condi FB. There are some scenarios where it does crazy dps that melee power builds will struggle to approach - bosses with long phases, no invulnerable phase transitions, no breakbars, lots of adds and mechanics that force melee builds to disengage and reposition constantly. On Power Weaver, I find it very hard to even get close to Condi FB dps on Capt Crowe because it plays so heavily to the latter's strengths.

    No breakbar means no big burst during exposed debuff with impact sigils. Ghostly wind cannot be ignored with stability so disengaging and repositioning is mandatory - melee power dps falls off a cliff when you have to do that because your damage output temporarily goes to zero. The adds benefit Condi FB in several ways - firstly tome 1 resets but also to guarantee crits with cleave. Condi FB is something of a misnomer because its really a hybrid power/condition build.

    You have 80% crit chance and a very significant portion of your dps is power/crit based. About 2/3 of your total damage dealt will be burning, with the remaining 1/3rd being power based. Applying burning increases the magnitude and frequency of your crits and critting increases the magnitude and duration of your burn ticks. DPS loss when disengaging and re-engaging is not as sharp as with power builds and so repositioning for ghostly winds doesn't hurt you as much. The tome 1 resets are the cherry on the cake, allowing you to stack burning higher than is possible on a training golem.

    Guardian utilities are flexible and FB tomes have great utility anyway so for this boss it is entirely feasible for your boon support FB to switch to Condi (from either Power or Heal FB). It can still provide 100% quickness uptime and stack might for the entire party. You can still provide a decent amount of reflects and some resistance too by dipping into tome 3.

    PUGs do like their healbrand though and this is mainly to do with your teammates being comfortable with fighting at low hp. In PUGs, dps players tend not to trust their supports to keep them alive when their health drops below 50%. They get jittery and start running away/double dodging out and waiting for their heal skill. For that reason alone, I will still stay on healbrand if requested to.

  • Mad Queen Malafide.7512Mad Queen Malafide.7512 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 2, 2020

    This is one of the Fractals I enjoy the most. It has a cool environment, and a challenging boss fight at the end. Unfortunately it also means that most pugs wipe at this boss. My only gripe is that darn shark. If only that shark wasn't there, I would be able to solo this boss easily after my group inevitably wipes. :D

    Also, the Hamstrung Instability is pretty unfair at this boss. It makes it nearly impossible to avoid being blown off the ship, unless your healer is still alive. But as long as I bring plenty of condition removal, my necro does just fine at this boss.

  • hellsqueen.3045hellsqueen.3045 Member ✭✭✭

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    I literally said in my post that our team comp that I sent actually worked fine. In fact it was better than fine.

    Well and you also said that you have trouble clearing siren's reef. For me it translates into: your comp doesn't work well.

    The Harrier Tempest healer is strong and compliments the Diviner Power Chrono really well. And the CFB is strong as hell, they hit for nearly 30k all of the time and the lowest they tend to go is 20k. And they don't have a slow start up time so they are as good if not better than having a power DPS. Our weaver was next in damage usually getting to about 20k and the necro above 15k but even when we pugged for DPS they didn't disappoint damage wise.

    I am not quite sure if those numbers say anything important or if I could relate them to anything. This is the outgoing dps (aoe included), not the dps cpt Crowe gets (it should be way lower). Ele and necro (especially necro) getting outtdpsed by a CFB is problematic though. Normally killing cpt crowe shouldn't take more than a minute, if you beat her under a minute your dps is fine. But it is not only about dps. See when I say you should change fb to power DH is because of the DH's elite skill and his greatsword's ability to pull mobs to boss (so you clear em fast), and condi scourge (which is a joke in fractals) should go power reaper (which is one of the best if not the best dps in normal t4s) AND reaper got "rise" ability that will bump up your suriviability here by a lot. "Rise" is literally created for this encounter. The thing with firebrand using tome 2 to bump tempest's healing is just roleplaying and will complicate the thing for no reason imo, that same skill could be better used for regular condicleansing if ppl fall into the water much.
    Again if I stop being a perfectionnist and stop trying to give advice on utility and gameplay. You can ignore everything that I said it will not change things drasticly (I still highly recommend you do those), BUT I still gotta say that the condi scourge in your team is hurting my eyes =) I am pretty sure he is the main force that is dragging you down. Condi scourge there is a dead weight that you are carrying and a fractal that is a liiiiiiil bit more difficult than average becomes annoying because of that.

    When I wrote the inital post, I was playing a druid and had no other classes besides a DPS geared for fractals and I don't enjoy playing DPS because I can't hit the higher numbers and NOBODY WANTED ME ON HEALER BECAUSE I WASN'T A HEALBRAND.

    This is even more true on fractals like Siren's Reef, you are not welcome if you don't fit a certain mold.

    The comp I mentioned with tempest heals, CFB and Chrono DOESN'T HAVE TROUBLE ON SIREN'S REEF.
    I said we had less troubles than ever before switching to this style.

    It still has the core problem that: you are not wanted PUGs that only go for meta comps.
    This kind of issue breeds so much toxicity in the community and it is made worse on fractals like Siren's Reef.

    And another point is that, even when we have no problem completing SR, the fact that the platform is small with so much clutter translate to awful design.

    Why is that so hard for people to understand? Just because it's added some challenge, doesn't mean it is okay because poor design making something a challenge is still poor design.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • Turkeyspit.3965Turkeyspit.3965 Member ✭✭✭✭

    This thread is a great notification for when Siren's Reef is a T4 daily.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭
    edited June 6, 2020

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    When I wrote the inital post, I was playing a druid and had no other classes besides a DPS geared for fractals and I don't enjoy playing DPS because I can't hit the higher numbers and NOBODY WANTED ME ON HEALER BECAUSE I WASN'T A HEALBRAND.

    This is even more true on fractals like Siren's Reef, you are not welcome if you don't fit a certain mold.

    I am pretty sure everyone is welcome anywhere if he/she knows his stuff. I have never been kicked from any pug group while playing offmeta. Maybe I am just lucky, but I guess if you know your thing nobody will tell you anything.

    The comp I mentioned with tempest heals, CFB and Chrono DOESN'T HAVE TROUBLE ON SIREN'S REEF.
    I said we had less troubles than ever before switching to this style.

    If you don't have any trouble, what is the problem then ? It just proves that Siren's Reef is not an extremely hard fractal. You say you don't have any troubles now.. strange.. I am missing something maybe.

    It still has the core problem that: you are not wanted PUGs that only go for meta comps.

    make your own group if you are not welcome. but again, my experience is quite different from yours I guess.

    This kind of issue breeds so much toxicity in the community and it is made worse on fractals like Siren's Reef.

    hmm.. Apart from cms sometimes (very rarely) I don't see often toxicity in normal fractals.

    And another point is that, even when we have no problem completing SR, the fact that the platform is small with so much clutter translate to awful design.

    This is why I answered your post !

    Why is that so hard for people to understand? Just because it's added some challenge, doesn't mean it is okay because poor design making something a challenge is still poor design.

    So I want an argument here: what do you mean by saying "poor design" ? If the platform was bigger, the only 3 mechanics (pushing tornadoes, the green circle and the red circle) would be completely useless, and it would make this fractal something like the 1st miniboss in "molten boss" fractal.
    The arena is small for a reason: it is the core mechanic of that bossfight. Asking to make it bigger is the same as asking Mickey Mouse be a crocodile. It makes no sense.

    And in the end I don't get the rant. You said that you have no trouble clearing now, so what's the problem ? If you don't like the fractal it is your personal preference. You can't say it has objectively poor design. It has a very good design in fact. Actually it is one of the best bossfights in gw2 in terms of mechanics.

  • Besetment.9187Besetment.9187 Member ✭✭
    edited June 7, 2020

    I have alts setup on all the meta roles purely so I can pug seamlessly with the most random of people. This is what pugging is like in every game and if you hate dealing with it, you really need to find a static. In Overwatch theres a pug meta (that looks like pro meta except nowhere near as organised). So if Ana is meta, you better have her as an option when you solo queue support, because you will end up in a game where nothing is clicking with your teammates and if you don't swap someone else will ask you to.

    Healbrand is so common in T4 that I ended up converting my WvW Firebrand into a PvE Healbrand and I play it upon request because it is familiar to most people doing dailies. I also made an Alacrigade purely so I had one to swap to if my pug group really wanted one.

    I don't want to be the inflexible person who can only play 1 thing and when its not working, the expectation is the other 4 people need to change or do something differently. If you have too many inflexible people in a group and its not working, nobody is willing to change what they play or how they play, thats when things turn messy. So I just try to avoid that entirely. There are times when I join and want to play off meta and sometimes I get the opportunity to do that. I really like playing Condi FB and Power Reaper.

    I get how this is a problem if you don't have a Firebrand but instead of complaining and not being able to do anything about it, how about working on gearing one, learning a new way to play the game and having the option to switch (with massive carry potential)? A lot of people in pug fractals know how to play with a Firebrand. Most do not know how to play with a Heal Tempest. So you will get to the end boss in Chaos Fractal and you can't provide aegis or stability to the group so either someone else needs to share aegis/stab or everyone needs to know what the boss's auto 3 looks like and dodge it every time or get chain dazed. I don't think thats a reasonable expectation to have when playing in pugs. You don't have to swap to FB if you really want to play Heal Tempest or Druid, but you can if things get really rough and nobody else can flex. If it works, it feels good knowing that you took the initiative and made a difference.

  • hellsqueen.3045hellsqueen.3045 Member ✭✭✭

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    I literally said in my post that our team comp that I sent actually worked fine. In fact it was better than fine.

    Well and you also said that you have trouble clearing siren's reef. For me it translates into: your comp doesn't work well.

    The Harrier Tempest healer is strong and compliments the Diviner Power Chrono really well. And the CFB is strong as hell, they hit for nearly 30k all of the time and the lowest they tend to go is 20k. And they don't have a slow start up time so they are as good if not better than having a power DPS. Our weaver was next in damage usually getting to about 20k and the necro above 15k but even when we pugged for DPS they didn't disappoint damage wise.

    I am not quite sure if those numbers say anything important or if I could relate them to anything. This is the outgoing dps (aoe included), not the dps cpt Crowe gets (it should be way lower). Ele and necro (especially necro) getting outtdpsed by a CFB is problematic though. Normally killing cpt crowe shouldn't take more than a minute, if you beat her under a minute your dps is fine. But it is not only about dps. See when I say you should change fb to power DH is because of the DH's elite skill and his greatsword's ability to pull mobs to boss (so you clear em fast), and condi scourge (which is a joke in fractals) should go power reaper (which is one of the best if not the best dps in normal t4s) AND reaper got "rise" ability that will bump up your suriviability here by a lot. "Rise" is literally created for this encounter. The thing with firebrand using tome 2 to bump tempest's healing is just roleplaying and will complicate the thing for no reason imo, that same skill could be better used for regular condicleansing if ppl fall into the water much.
    Again if I stop being a perfectionnist and stop trying to give advice on utility and gameplay. You can ignore everything that I said it will not change things drasticly (I still highly recommend you do those), BUT I still gotta say that the condi scourge in your team is hurting my eyes =) I am pretty sure he is the main force that is dragging you down. Condi scourge there is a dead weight that you are carrying and a fractal that is a liiiiiiil bit more difficult than average becomes annoying because of that.

    When I wrote the inital post, I was playing a druid and had no other classes besides a DPS geared for fractals and I don't enjoy playing DPS because I can't hit the higher numbers and NOBODY WANTED ME ON HEALER BECAUSE I WASN'T A HEALBRAND.

    This is even more true on fractals like Siren's Reef, you are not welcome if you don't fit a certain mold.

    The comp I mentioned with tempest heals, CFB and Chrono DOESN'T HAVE TROUBLE ON SIREN'S REEF.
    I said we had less troubles than ever before switching to this style.

    It still has the core problem that: you are not wanted PUGs that only go for meta comps.
    This kind of issue breeds so much toxicity in the community and it is made worse on fractals like Siren's Reef.

    And another point is that, even when we have no problem completing SR, the fact that the platform is small with so much clutter translate to awful design.

    Why is that so hard for people to understand? Just because it's added some challenge, doesn't mean it is okay because poor design making something a challenge is still poor design.> @Armen.1483 said:

    @hellsqueen.3045 said:

    When I wrote the inital post, I was playing a druid and had no other classes besides a DPS geared for fractals and I don't enjoy playing DPS because I can't hit the higher numbers and NOBODY WANTED ME ON HEALER BECAUSE I WASN'T A HEALBRAND.

    This is even more true on fractals like Siren's Reef, you are not welcome if you don't fit a certain mold.

    I am pretty sure everyone is welcome anywhere if he/she knows his stuff. I have never been kicked from any pug group while playing offmeta. Maybe I am just lucky, but I guess if you know your thing nobody will tell you anything.

    The comp I mentioned with tempest heals, CFB and Chrono DOESN'T HAVE TROUBLE ON SIREN'S REEF.
    I said we had less troubles than ever before switching to this style.

    If you don't have any trouble, what is the problem then ? It just proves that Siren's Reef is not an extremely hard fractal. You say you don't have any troubles now.. strange.. I am missing something maybe.

    It still has the core problem that: you are not wanted PUGs that only go for meta comps.

    make your own group if you are not welcome. but again, my experience is quite different from yours I guess.

    This kind of issue breeds so much toxicity in the community and it is made worse on fractals like Siren's Reef.

    hmm.. Apart from cms sometimes (very rarely) I don't see often toxicity in normal fractals.

    And another point is that, even when we have no problem completing SR, the fact that the platform is small with so much clutter translate to awful design.

    This is why I answered your post !

    Why is that so hard for people to understand? Just because it's added some challenge, doesn't mean it is okay because poor design making something a challenge is still poor design.

    So I want an argument here: what do you mean by saying "poor design" ? If the platform was bigger, the only 3 mechanics (pushing tornadoes, the green circle and the red circle) would be completely useless, and it would make this fractal something like the 1st miniboss in "molten boss" fractal.
    The arena is small for a reason: it is the core mechanic of that bossfight. Asking to make it bigger is the same as asking Mickey Mouse be a crocodile. It makes no sense.

    And in the end I don't get the rant. You said that you have no trouble clearing now, so what's the problem ? If you don't like the fractal it is your personal preference. You can't say it has objectively poor design. It has a very good design in fact. Actually it is one of the best bossfights in gw2 in terms of mechanics.

    When you can have people say in this post that CM's, which are the challenge mode versions of fractals still feel like they have less visual clutter and kitten spam compared this fractal, it says a lot.

    When I did Shattered Observatory CM for the first time, I had an easier time dealing with everything in that. Siren's Reef just does a bad job at giving the player space, I feel like it replicates the stress I feel when put in an enclosed space for too long.
    There is no excuse for a small platform filled to the brim with that many chunky AOE's. That's really the major issue.
    The size of the AOEs and all the mobs on the smallest fighting space I've seen in some time, it just feels awful to experience.
    I can look forward to nearly every other fractal, usually the only time I groan is when I get certain instabilities matched up with a certain fractal.
    Although I'll be fair and say I also passionately dislike the newer Aquatic Ruins boss fight as well.

    I can't really point out another fractal that really suffers from this because there isn't.

    But I will point out a story example:
    You are on the epic airship mission and you are flying through the sky.
    Hmm, my character seems a bit jittery hmm weird.
    And, oh oh dear lord I just fell through the airship.... Why the hell is this happening?
    Oh there is a waypoint! I'll teleport back to it.

    This was my genuine experience with the story mission. I fell through the ship many times and had to use the waypoint to avoid falling into the void and dying multiple times.

    The waypoint doesn't really help the core issue, it is just a way around a problem that shouldn't really exist in the first place.
    Having to have all these rules in place of how to deal with every little thing is the waypoint that really should have to exist in the first place.
    The whole point of GW2 was to create a game with so much build freedom, going back towards holy trinity behaviour is one thing, but having to be specific classes in order to succeed makes things really toxic and frustrating.

    Or what about in the actual Arah Dungeon and you fight Giga Lupi.
    By default people pretty much want a reflect to deal with him. That shouldn't really have to be a thing to melt his health bar away and keep your team significantly more alive, but it is.

    These things to me scream poor design, just because there was a way around it, doesn't mean it made for good design choices.
    Good design generally makes more people happy than it does frustrated, even if that thing is hard.

    Founder of Affinitus Nemus [AFNM]
    "Join Us, We're Lonely" - Our Guild At Some Point

    JUST LIKE THE LORAX, WE SPEAK FOR THE TREES!

  • As condi scourge this fractal was never an issue.
    It can be done if you have enough stability so the wind will not be an issue. Or you can just aoe the boss when teleported so you dont have to deal with the wind if you chased it.

    As scourge i cleanse and transfer the condis to the boss. And spam epi when the target got the maximum condis i can give from my rotation.

    The wind if nothing if you never tried to chase the boss

  • Critical Lag.9075Critical Lag.9075 Member ✭✭✭

    Never really had many problems with this fractal but I really dislike it. For me the the worst part is that the boss is simply boring. Feels like the adds are the boss and boss is like a prop that stands still and does aoe stun ocasionally. Crowe herself is not really threatening in any way, shape or form because main threat are billion adds that spawn throught the fight. I hope they took some feedback and the new fractal is more like 99/100 instead deepstore/siren's.

  • mikko.1842mikko.1842 Member ✭✭

    @silent killer.5732 said:
    [...] if you have enough stability so the wind will not be an issue.

    Stability won't prevent the wind from throwing you out of the deck.
    It does work for the hammer attacks though.

    @silent killer.5732 said:
    The wind if nothing if you never tried to chase the boss

    True.

    The part when you say that ranged AoE can help is true 👍.
    Wind will follow a "pattern", and if you place yourself at the good wind channel edge, it's easy to walk away from it, even without dodging.