Battle Scars do not belong in Devastation Traitline. — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Battle Scars do not belong in Devastation Traitline.

Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

Devastation Traitline after the rework has reinforced it as the dedicated "Direct damage" traitline.

Yet we have 3 sustain related traits shoehorned into it, taking up traitslots which could have more damage options.
2 of the 3 traits are basically useless when the 3rd is picked as well. (Battle Scarred and Thrill of Combat are extremely weak in the face of Thrill of Battle + Sword autos)

I think we should have Battle Scars removed from Devastation traitline.
Move Battle Scars to Impossible Odds instead, beef up the damage a little, and make the 2nd hit the Siphon effect with no ICD.
This will be more than enough to make Impossible Odds pretty good for both PvP and PvE (That is of course, there is no Game mode split)

Devastation deserves better offensive traits than 3 sustain heavy ones.

If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

<1

Comments

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    pls no. This would kill impossible odds in pve. Lifesteal doesn't crit. Just look at necro wh5 and how useless that is now.

    Dance of death is indeed far superior to the other option. it does more damage than the 10% most of the time aswell.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nephalem.8921 said:
    pls no. This would kill impossible odds in pve. Lifesteal doesn't crit. Just look at necro wh5 and how useless that is now.

    I meant to move the Siphon portion to Impossible Odds.
    So Impossible Odds will now do their original damage + the Battle Scars Siphon.

    They can make Upkeep + 1 for PvE if they want but the Upkeep for PvP is already ridiculous.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 7, 2020

    Let's rename the Devastation trait line into "Shiro Tagachi".
    Suddenly an effect named after a skill used by Shiro Tagachi in GW1 fits the trait line themed after him!

  • DonArkanio.6419DonArkanio.6419 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I think Battle Scars have a place in the Devastation.

    We can have a Trait that enhances Impossible Odds with Battle Scars effect. This way, there is a clear choice between sustain and damage.

    Or, make Battle Scars baseline for Devastation, so when you Trait Devastation, the Impossible Odds are always enhanced. This promotes taking Devastation when playing Shiro.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2020

    Dance of death is ok imo in devastation. Could be reworked a bit, since it improves damage almost as much as Swift termination,which is for dmg only.
    Thrill of Combat could use an slight buff. Battle scarred should be removed completely. This is complete garbage.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DonArkanio.6419 said:
    I think Battle Scars have a place in the Devastation.

    We can have a Trait that enhances Impossible Odds with Battle Scars effect. This way, there is a clear choice between sustain and damage.

    Or, make Battle Scars baseline for Devastation, so when you Trait Devastation, the Impossible Odds are always enhanced. This promotes taking Devastation when playing Shiro.

    Yea this sounds like a great idea.
    Just like how Corruption gets Invoke Torment.

    Problem is that it's too Shiro-centric at that point.

    I just don't like that Anet decided to shove Sustain into the traitline to justify the existence of Shiro's GW siphon mechanics, instead of simply adding this to Impossible Odds for Shiro.

    Traitline has sustain in it?
    Yea sure, it's pretty nice if it didn't take so many trait slots to fulfill the idea of simply having Siphon on attacks.
    Focused Siphoning was a baseline Siphon in the past which simply Siphoned on a target with Vuln, but they kinda just took that, beefed it up by combining Assassin's Annihilation, and divided it into 3 traits and spread it around.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    No trait line is made to be exclusively associated to its corresponding legend. Because it would artificially prevent build diversity.
    No trait line has a row of talents competing for the exact same goal. Because people would just use the "mathematically best".
    That's why Devastation traits are not tied to Impossible Odds but favoring vulnerability, dual wielding, quickness, might, and direct damage.
    Things you'll have available when playing dual swords + Shiro Tagashi, but not exclusively.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    Ok, but where's the gimmick? Anet will want something like the siphoned health transforms into healing orbs before they can rework anything rev-related.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 8, 2020

    I think what should be done is make Battle Scars a Minor where if the Rev has Quickness, they get Siphon.

    Devastation without Shiro does have Brutality for Quickness to use this to full effect without forcing Devastation to be a Shiro only Traitline.

    They can then add more Quickness traits to replace Battle Scarred and Thrill of Combat. (Eg. when attacking a target above X Vuln stacks, gain Quickness for X seconds)

    PS. put Quickness back on Impossible Odds plox.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    I think what should be done is make Battle Scars a Minor where if the Rev has Quickness, they get Siphon.

    Devastation without Shiro does have Brutality for Quickness to use this to full effect without forcing Devastation to be a Shiro only Traitline.

    They can then add more Quickness traits to replace Battle Scarred and Thrill of Combat. (Eg. when attacking a target above X Vuln stacks, gain Quickness for X seconds)

    PS. put Quickness back on Impossible Odds plox.

    There are already purely power damage trait you can pick on each tiers.
    Unsuspecting Strikes, Notoriety / Assassin's Presence, and Swift Termination.
    The minors are already all helping with power damage too.
    Sustain is not something that should be removed from Devastation to put even more power damage traits.

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 9, 2020

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    Dance of death is ok imo in devastation. Could be reworked a bit, since it improves damage almost as much as Swift termination,which is for dmg only.
    Thrill of Combat could use an slight buff. Battle scarred should be removed completely. This is complete garbage.

    Actually it does quite a lot more damage than the 20% mod if the fight is long enough or very short. tested it in fractals and dod wins over the other trait almost always. exceptions are ensyloss, siax and every boss with very high exposed uptime below 50% or other mods.
    Such a shame that it only shows in self stats. makes comparing quite hard without logs.

  • draxynnic.3719draxynnic.3719 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    No trait line is made to be exclusively associated to its corresponding legend. Because it would artificially prevent build diversity.
    No trait line has a row of talents competing for the exact same goal. Because people would just use the "mathematically best".
    That's why Devastation traits are not tied to Impossible Odds but favoring vulnerability, dual wielding, quickness, might, and direct damage.
    Things you'll have available when playing dual swords + Shiro Tagashi, but not exclusively.

    Pretty much this. Generally speaking, the traitlines have the most synergy with the associated legend, but this isn't intended to be a hard-and-fast rule. Glint/Jalis with Devastation instead of Retribution used to be fairly popular in PvE thanks to the synergy between Assassin's Annihilation and Vengeful Hammers, for instance.

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I am actually quite happy with the lufe siphon. It's great for mobbing and one of my favorite parts of my eternal fortress herald.

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    I am actually quite happy with the lufe siphon. It's great for mobbing and one of my favorite parts of my eternal fortress herald.

    Just curious, what's build are you referring to ?

  • InsaneQR.7412InsaneQR.7412 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2020

    @Aigleborgne.2981 said:

    @InsaneQR.7412 said:
    I am actually quite happy with the lufe siphon. It's great for mobbing and one of my favorite parts of my eternal fortress herald.

    Just curious, what's build are you referring to ?

    http://gw2skills.net/editor/?Pm1AYxzldQKMHyi1QXsHCj9RisAqgl+1f7H-zRIYRUzXGFWBhmCOPA-e
    Basically this.
    The goal is to stack upkeeps to heal yourself constantly, get boons galore, and deal continues damage.

    you can catch up quite quickly to enemies and you stack damage mitigation and apply weakness.

    Keep F2 always active and as soon as you enter dwarve activate the hammers for damage.

    When you enter glint keep the utility upkeeps active. If you are low on health double tap glint heal.

    Use Utilities as appropriate (stunbreak or vuln).

    Damage is high due to gear and survivability is great due to traits.

    Have fun playing.

  • Aigleborgne.2981Aigleborgne.2981 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2020

    Wrong link I suppose? 😉

  • I'd be fine with it if it was decent in PvP modes. Those 3 traits are total garbage compared to what Assassins Annihilation was.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @CutesySylveon.8290 said:
    I'd be fine with it if it was decent in PvP modes. Those 3 traits are total garbage compared to what Assassins Annihilation was.

    As mentioned above : Thrill of Battle and Battle Scarred are straight up garbage and borderline redundant when one picks Dance of Death, and this is even in a PvE setting.

    These two traits need to be reworked or replaced, and maybe we can have some sort of pick diversity for Devastation.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • The adept majors are all terrible now with the first one being the least pointless. The new Devastation is a straight downgrade in most cases to what it was for PvP, and a missed opportunity for the traits I had hope for. The three bottom traits don't exist unless I'm doing fights in guild halls where they scale well.

  • zaswer.5246zaswer.5246 Member ✭✭

    Well if were talking about traits that would be better in other lines i think you could as well take assasin presence from devastation and put it into invocation changed so it gives a differrnt buff in each legend , after all more than a dmg trait is a group suport buff and that would let us free to take notoriety and thus increase our overall dmg wich to tell the truth needs a little buff

  • zaswer.5246zaswer.5246 Member ✭✭

    Also i think battle scars traits are suposed to be like kind of dueling traits to help surviving on 1vs1 or 1vs group , i dont realy mind those traits being there.
    In fact i think both herald and renegade need much more the changes than the core lines.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 19, 2020

    @zaswer.5246 said:
    Well if were talking about traits that would be better in other lines i think you could as well take assasin presence from devastation and put it into invocation changed so it gives a differrnt buff in each legend , after all more than a dmg trait is a group suport buff and that would let us free to take notoriety and thus increase our overall dmg wich to tell the truth needs a little buff

    People have mentioned before that they should push all Critical related traits into Invocation.

    Replace Spirit Boon for all I care, that trait should have been a core Minor, and I will gladly have Spirit Boon replace Contained Temper.

    And I disgree about having "dueling" skills on Devastation.
    It gives Devastation a sort of bloat when it comes to trait choices and this bloat is currently what is going on with the 3 Battle Scars traits.
    Battle scars should have been either a Minor with at most 2 traits to boost it, or 1 really good trait, like Dance of Death but slightly stronger.

    What we have now is unacceptable because the adept and master Battle Scar traits are so bad that they are basically dead trait slots, and we have one pretty decent GM trait, and no innate Siphon like the previous version of Devastation.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • @Yasai.3549 said:

    @zaswer.5246 said:
    Well if were talking about traits that would be better in other lines i think you could as well take assasin presence from devastation and put it into invocation changed so it gives a differrnt buff in each legend , after all more than a dmg trait is a group suport buff and that would let us free to take notoriety and thus increase our overall dmg wich to tell the truth needs a little buff

    People have mentioned before that they should push all Critical related traits into Invocation.

    Replace Spirit Boon for all I care, that trait should have been a core Minor, and I will gladly have Spirit Boon replace Contained Temper.

    And I disgree about having "dueling" skills on Devastation.
    It gives Devastation a sort of bloat when it comes to trait choices and this bloat is currently what is going on with the 3 Battle Scars traits.
    Battle scars should have been either a Minor with at most 2 traits to boost it, or 1 really good trait, like Dance of Death but slightly stronger.

    What we have now is unacceptable because the adept and master Battle Scar traits are so bad that they are basically dead trait slots, and we have one pretty decent GM trait, and no innate Siphon like the previous version of Devastation.

    The simple solution would have been they left Assassins Annihilation alone because it wasn't even a problem. And I'd like to see spirit boon either made baseline or merged with Song of the Mists. Only time i take Spirit Boon is when running support in PvE, otherwise Incensed Response is a must pick.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @zaswer.5246 said:
    Well if were talking about traits that would be better in other lines i think you could as well take assassin presence from devastation and put it into invocation changed so it gives a different buff in each legend , after all more than a dmg trait is a group support buff and that would let us free to take notoriety and thus increase our overall dmg which to tell the truth needs a little buff

    Something like that ?
    Mallyx : +100 Condition Damage
    Ventari : +100 Healing Power
    Shiro : +100 Power
    Jalis : +100 Toughness
    Glint : +100 Vitality
    Kalla : +100 Ferocity

  • zaswer.5246zaswer.5246 Member ✭✭

    Yes i think that would be good , i mean invocation is about legends so it could have traits meant to be selfish( like fury traits ) traits meant to buff in a group and traits meant to strengthen legend swap and energy management , and i think a trait caled legendary presence with that buffs could fit just fine , in devastation maybe just having dance of the dead as a scar trait and giving shiro skills scar stacks by default would solve some problems and free slots, also the trait meant to increase our energy in swap should be something like:" increase the legend base energy to 75 and if youre below 15 energy in the swap you start in the new legend with 100 energy.
    Now in kalla maybe making a trait that reduces summons energy cost or cds or that increases dmg instead of only bleed dmg .
    And for herald focusing it around giving a wider variety of buffs like quickness or resistance , or even unique buffs .
    Also if we talk about battle scars more in detail maybe giving kalla and glint a way to stack scars by themself with traits , i know it is a shiro unique feature but maybe a way to mix legend features to get even stronger would be a good direction to follow with revenant as we have seen that having completely separated legends make us too weak and its too difficult to manage with no reward

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @zaswer.5246 said:
    Yes i think that would be good , i mean invocation is about legends so it could have traits meant to be selfish( like fury traits ) traits meant to buff in a group and traits meant to strengthen legend swap and energy management , and i think a trait caled legendary presence with that buffs could fit just fine , in devastation maybe just having dance of the dead as a scar trait and giving shiro skills scar stacks by default would solve some problems and free slots, also the trait meant to increase our energy in swap should be something like:" increase the legend base energy to 75 and if youre below 15 energy in the swap you start in the new legend with 100 energy.
    Now in kalla maybe making a trait that reduces summons energy cost or cds or that increases dmg instead of only bleed dmg .
    And for herald focusing it around giving a wider variety of buffs like quickness or resistance , or even unique buffs .
    Also if we talk about battle scars more in detail maybe giving kalla and glint a way to stack scars by themself with traits , i know it is a shiro unique feature but maybe a way to mix legend features to get even stronger would be a good direction to follow with revenant as we have seen that having completely separated legends make us too weak and its too difficult to manage with no reward

    Kalla already has (Icerazor's Ire + Dance of Death) or (Darkrazor's Daring + Ashen Demeanor + Dance of Death) to get Battle Scars.
    Glint has (Facet of Darkness > Gaze of Darkness + Dance of Death) to get Battle Scars.

    But if you talk about having Battle Scars related traits in more than one trait line, it's a bad idea.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 19, 2020

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @zaswer.5246 said:
    Well if were talking about traits that would be better in other lines i think you could as well take assassin presence from devastation and put it into invocation changed so it gives a different buff in each legend , after all more than a dmg trait is a group support buff and that would let us free to take notoriety and thus increase our overall dmg which to tell the truth needs a little buff

    Something like that ?
    Mallyx : +100 Condition Damage
    Ventari : +100 Healing Power
    Shiro : +100 Power
    Jalis : +100 Toughness
    Glint : +100 Vitality
    Kalla : +100 Ferocity

    thats something ive always wanted for the rev.
    Maybe even to reduce it to 75 ,but make it an team aura

  • Nephalem.8921Nephalem.8921 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @zaswer.5246 said:
    Well if were talking about traits that would be better in other lines i think you could as well take assassin presence from devastation and put it into invocation changed so it gives a different buff in each legend , after all more than a dmg trait is a group support buff and that would let us free to take notoriety and thus increase our overall dmg which to tell the truth needs a little buff

    Something like that ?
    Mallyx : +100 Condition Damage
    Ventari : +100 Healing Power
    Shiro : +100 Power
    Jalis : +100 Toughness
    Glint : +100 Vitality
    Kalla : +100 Ferocity

    thats something ive always wanted for the rev.
    Maybe even to reduce it to 75 ,but make it an team aura

    Would just be a hard nerf to fractal ren. healing power teambuff is useless since you dont stack healers in a group. Nobody plays ventari healer in wvsw. You either want a condi or power buff. This would also buff condi ren and you really dont want to buff that.

  • zaswer.5246zaswer.5246 Member ✭✭
    edited April 20, 2020

    Well i dont think rev healer would be a problem i mean you can alwais have both ventary and kalla or shiro to have oth heal and dmg buffs and also the condi build for rev , even if buffed wouldnt be that bad as its a group buff
    In fact it would just make rev condi as good as a firebrand and bring a bit more utility

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @zaswer.5246 said:
    Well if were talking about traits that would be better in other lines i think you could as well take assassin presence from devastation and put it into invocation changed so it gives a different buff in each legend , after all more than a dmg trait is a group support buff and that would let us free to take notoriety and thus increase our overall dmg which to tell the truth needs a little buff

    Something like that ?
    Mallyx : +100 Condition Damage
    Ventari : +100 Healing Power
    Shiro : +100 Power
    Jalis : +100 Toughness
    Glint : +100 Vitality
    Kalla : +100 Ferocity

    thats something ive always wanted for the rev.
    Maybe even to reduce it to 75 ,but make it an team aura

    I think the +stat based on Legend could be a reworked Spirit Boon thing instead of reworking Assassin's Presence.

    Spirit Boon is extremely weak, and if it wants to stay as a Master, it needs this sort of rework.
    If not, it's a minor tier trait.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @zaswer.5246 said:
    Well if were talking about traits that would be better in other lines i think you could as well take assassin presence from devastation and put it into invocation changed so it gives a different buff in each legend , after all more than a dmg trait is a group support buff and that would let us free to take notoriety and thus increase our overall dmg which to tell the truth needs a little buff

    Something like that ?
    Mallyx : +100 Condition Damage
    Ventari : +100 Healing Power
    Shiro : +100 Power
    Jalis : +100 Toughness
    Glint : +100 Vitality
    Kalla : +100 Ferocity

    thats something ive always wanted for the rev.
    Maybe even to reduce it to 75 ,but make it an team aura

    I think the +stat based on Legend could be a reworked Spirit Boon thing instead of reworking Assassin's Presence.

    Spirit Boon is extremely weak, and if it wants to stay as a Master, it needs this sort of rework.
    If not, it's a minor tier trait.

    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    Ok, this one is subpar.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    They should put Empty Vessel back in that slot.
    With all the CC spam going on these days, that one hardly is over-performing.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    Ok, this one is subpar.

    Really? No one likes having over a minute of fury and 25x might with minimal effort on non-Herald builds?

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2020

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    Ok, this one is subpar.

    Really? No one likes having over a minute of fury and 25x might with minimal effort on non-Herald builds?

    You can already get a pretty nice amount of Fury and Might solo without this minor in Renegade.

    Minor Renegade trait Endless Enimity grants 6s Fury when you hit a target under 50% health, on a 8s cooldown.
    Minor Invocation trait Invoker's Rage grants 5s Fury on legend swap, so 10s cooldown.
    Sword 5 skill Deathstrike grants 8s Fury on 15s cooldown.
    Assassin Shiro utility skill Riposting Shadows grants 6s Fury for 30 energy.

    Invoker's Rage + Endless Enimity + Deathstrike above 50% health is enough for a 100% Fury uptime.

    Major Renegade trait Lasting Legacy makes Heroic Commands grants 15x Might for 12s on a 10s cooldown.
    Sword 3 skill Unrelenting Assault grants 5x Might for 8s on a 12s cooldown.
    Major Invocation trait Incensed Response grants 5x Might for 8s every time you get Fury.
    Swap Legend : 5x Might for 8s on a 10s cooldown
    Deathstrike : 5x Might for 8s on a 15s cooldown
    Endless Enimity : 5x Might for 8s on a 8s cooldown
    Riposting Shadows : 5x Might for 8s for 30 energy

    With that you can keep yourself at 25x Might.

    Riposting Shadows is not even necessary if you manage your skill properly so it still works if you swap Shiro for Jalis.

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    They should put Empty Vessel back in that slot.
    With all the CC spam going on these days, that one hardly is over-performing.

    It would be amazing !

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    Ok, this one is subpar.

    Really? No one likes having over a minute of fury and 25x might with minimal effort on non-Herald builds?

    You can already get a pretty nice amount of Fury and Might solo without this minor in Renegade.

    Minor Renegade trait Endless Enimity grants 6s Fury when you hit a target under 50% health, on a 8s cooldown.
    Minor Invocation trait Invoker's Rage grants 5s Fury on legend swap, so 10s cooldown.
    Sword 5 skill Deathstrike grants 8s Fury on 15s cooldown.
    Assassin Shiro utility skill Riposting Shadows grants 6s Fury for 30 energy.

    Invoker's Rage + Endless Enimity + Deathstrike above 50% health is enough for a 100% Fury uptime.

    Major Renegade trait Lasting Legacy makes Heroic Commands grants 15x Might for 12s on a 10s cooldown.
    Sword 3 skill Unrelenting Assault grants 5x Might for 8s on a 12s cooldown.
    Major Invocation trait Incensed Response grants 5x Might for 8s every time you get Fury.
    Swap Legend : 5x Might for 8s on a 10s cooldown
    Deathstrike : 5x Might for 8s on a 15s cooldown
    Endless Enimity : 5x Might for 8s on a 8s cooldown
    Riposting Shadows : 5x Might for 8s for 30 energy

    With that you can keep yourself at 25x Might.

    Riposting Shadows is not even necessary if you manage your skill properly so it still works if you swap Shiro for Jalis.

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    They should put Empty Vessel back in that slot.
    With all the CC spam going on these days, that one hardly is over-performing.

    It would be amazing !

    I think you missed the "minimal effort" part. Contained Temper is per target cooldown so use one of our many AoE CCs and you potentially get up to 40 sec fury and 25x might off one skill. For Darkrazor you don't even need that many targets, its got multiple AoE dazes and they hit at the same rate as the trait's cooldown.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2020

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    Ok, this one is subpar.

    Really? No one likes having over a minute of fury and 25x might with minimal effort on non-Herald builds?

    You can already get a pretty nice amount of Fury and Might solo without this minor in Renegade.

    Minor Renegade trait Endless Enimity grants 6s Fury when you hit a target under 50% health, on a 8s cooldown.
    Minor Invocation trait Invoker's Rage grants 5s Fury on legend swap, so 10s cooldown.
    Sword 5 skill Deathstrike grants 8s Fury on 15s cooldown.
    Assassin Shiro utility skill Riposting Shadows grants 6s Fury for 30 energy.

    Invoker's Rage + Endless Enimity + Deathstrike above 50% health is enough for a 100% Fury uptime.

    Major Renegade trait Lasting Legacy makes Heroic Commands grants 15x Might for 12s on a 10s cooldown.
    Sword 3 skill Unrelenting Assault grants 5x Might for 8s on a 12s cooldown.
    Major Invocation trait Incensed Response grants 5x Might for 8s every time you get Fury.
    Swap Legend : 5x Might for 8s on a 10s cooldown
    Deathstrike : 5x Might for 8s on a 15s cooldown
    Endless Enimity : 5x Might for 8s on a 8s cooldown
    Riposting Shadows : 5x Might for 8s for 30 energy

    With that you can keep yourself at 25x Might.

    Riposting Shadows is not even necessary if you manage your skill properly so it still works if you swap Shiro for Jalis.

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    They should put Empty Vessel back in that slot.
    With all the CC spam going on these days, that one hardly is over-performing.

    It would be amazing !

    I think you missed the "minimal effort" part. Contained Temper is per target cooldown so use one of our many AoE CCs and you potentially get up to 40 sec fury and 25x might off one skill. For Darkrazor you don't even need that many targets, its got multiple AoE dazes and they hit at the same rate as the trait's cooldown.

    I would rather have something else, even with minimal effort you can get a lot of Fury & Might anyway. Would raise the skill ceiling and lower the skill floor.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2020

    Contained Temper is decent on paper but absolute trash as a forced Minor slot.

    It's wholely situational and requires the build to build around it in order for one to get the most value out of it.

    So unless yur playing Mallyx or Axe to reliably apply CC, CC that can be dodged, it's mediocre at best.

    Also Incensed Response got nerfed in PvP so there's no fat might stacks there, and if yur in any situation to slap enough CC on multiple people with Revs kit, it's as Hammer Rev in WvW, which again, situational at best.

    Situational traits like Contained Temper might be great as a trait option, but is absolutely garbage as a forced Minor trait which cannot be changed and the player is forced into picking no matter what.

    Example is Salvation's Minor GM : Serene Rejuvenation which only affects Healing Harmony, a Ventari skill, essentially being useless as long as people aren't playing Ventari, making it a dead trait slot on any build attempting to use Salvation without Ventari.

    Stuff like that should not be minor forced traits.

    I'll take Spirit Boon in Contained Temper's slot anyday.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:
    Contained Temper is decent on paper but absolute trash as a forced Minor slot.

    It's wholely situational and requires the build to build around it in order for one to get the most value out of it.

    So unless yur playing Mallyx or Axe to reliably apply CC, CC that can be dodged, it's mediocre at best.

    Also Incensed Response got nerfed in PvP so there's no fat might stacks there, and if yur in any situation to slap enough CC on multiple people with Revs kit, it's as Hammer Rev in WvW, which again, situational at best.

    Situational traits like Contained Temper might be great as a trait option, but is absolutely garbage as a forced Minor trait which cannot be changed and the player is forced into picking no matter what.

    Example is Salvation's Minor GM : Serene Rejuvenation which only affects Healing Harmony, a Ventari skill, essentially being useless as long as people aren't playing Ventari, making it a dead trait slot on any build attempting to use Salvation without Ventari.

    Stuff like that should not be minor forced traits.

    I'll take Spirit Boon in Contained Temper's slot anyday.

    You'd give up potential 8-20x might for 8s on 1s cooldown for a few 2-6s boons on 10s cooldown? Ok, to each their own I guess. Don't even have to build for it when every legend and weapon has an AoE CC with the exception of off-hand sword.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 20, 2020

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    You'd give up potential 8-20x might for 8s on 1s cooldown for a few 2-6s boons on 10s cooldown? Ok, to each their own I guess. Don't even have to build for it when every legend and weapon has an AoE CC with the exception of off-hand sword.

    Point here is that it's just not that great because it's purely situational on builds which can already stack Might and Fury relatively easily.

    But hey, if yu wanna show the world how "good" and "strong" Contained Temper is, feel free to make a montage to demonstrate.

    The first thing I did when the update dropped was to try Core Rev with Contained Temper thinking that hey if I have enough CC, I can uptime 25 Might on Core woohoo.

    Hell I even made a pre patch theory craft mentioning Contained Temper.

    What actually happened was way different from expectations.

    PvE wise, it was fine, but the missing Empty Vessel was a more glaring change because yu can now get CC locked by PvE mobs.

    PvP wise, not great at all.

    Most if not all of Rev's Cc is extremely unreliable, has poop range, or very obvious tell.

    Yu get about, 2 - 3 CC tops per skirmish, and any of yur reliable CC like CtA or Axe 5 needs yu to be in spitting distance to yur enemy, and trying to do so in WvW is basically suicide even in small scale, especially since every tom duck and harry has back to back CC now, and with Rev losing Empty Vessel and having Stunbreaks that cost more than a Toilet paper roll does on Ebay, yur basically going HIT ME HIT ME CC ME KILL ME.

    In PvP BIGSHOCKER that Incensed Response got nerfed, but running Herald anyway so what.

    And don't even bother using it with Renegade either.

    Darkrazor himself gets CC'd instead of doing the CCing, and worse part is yu just spent a precious Cooldown based Stunbreak to attempt to CC someone.

    And to add insult to injury, Renegade already stacks and maintains 25 might uptime with Vindication and can also use F1 to give themselves a burst of Might, which surprise surprise, is cheaper and more reliable than trying to land any of Rev's CC.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    You'd give up potential 8-20x might for 8s on 1s cooldown for a few 2-6s boons on 10s cooldown? Ok, to each their own I guess. Don't even have to build for it when every legend and weapon has an AoE CC with the exception of off-hand sword.

    Point here is that it's just not that great because it's purely situational on builds which can already stack Might and Fury relatively easily.

    But hey, if yu wanna show the world how "good" and "strong" Contained Temper is, feel free to make a montage to demonstrate.

    The first thing I did when the update dropped was to try Core Rev with Contained Temper thinking that hey if I have enough CC, I can uptime 25 Might on Core woohoo.

    Hell I even made a pre patch theory craft mentioning Contained Temper.

    What actually happened was way different from expectations.

    PvE wise, it was fine, but the missing Empty Vessel was a more glaring change because yu can now get CC locked by PvE mobs.

    PvP wise, not great at all.

    Most if not all of Rev's Cc is extremely unreliable, has poop range, or very obvious tell.

    Yu get about, 2 - 3 CC tops per skirmish, and any of yur reliable CC like CtA or Axe 5 needs yu to be in spitting distance to yur enemy, and trying to do so in WvW is basically suicide even in small scale, especially since every tom duck and harry has back to back CC now, and with Rev losing Empty Vessel and having Stunbreaks that cost more than a Toilet paper roll does on Ebay, yur basically going HIT ME HIT ME CC ME KILL ME.

    In PvP BIGSHOCKER that Incensed Response got nerfed, but running Herald anyway so what.

    And don't even bother using it with Renegade either.

    Darkrazor himself gets CC'd instead of doing the CCing, and worse part is yu just spent a precious Cooldown based Stunbreak to attempt to CC someone.

    And to add insult to injury, Renegade already stacks and maintains 25 might uptime with Vindication and can also use F1 to give themselves a burst of Might, which surprise surprise, is cheaper and more reliable than trying to land any of Rev's CC.

    It isn't really that complicated, don't need theorycrafting or montages to show fury + might on CC is strong. It sounds like when you tried it you made it the focus of your build rather than just playing naturally and having it as an extra perk. If I had to put actual thought into maintaining 25x might all the time I wouldn't play that well either.

  • Yasai.3549Yasai.3549 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    It isn't really that complicated, don't need theorycrafting or montages to show fury + might on CC is strong. It sounds like when you tried it you made it the focus of your build rather than just playing naturally and having it as an extra perk. If I had to put actual thought into maintaining 25x might all the time I wouldn't play that well either.

    It's not an extra perk if it is redundant and unneeded.

    Why do we need more Fury and Might when we already have so much Fury and Might easily?
    And costing us a Stunbreak at that?

    And besides, a normal Rev build doesn't have all that much CC anyway, making the value of this minor drop even more.
    It's not about "just passively use it lol" it's literally taking up a slot of a previously more useful minor which we desperately need right now for all gamemodes.

    If I play a stupid build, I deserve to die.
    If I beat people on a stupid build, I deserve to get away with it.

  • zaswer.5246zaswer.5246 Member ✭✭

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    No trait line is made to be exclusively associated to its corresponding legend. Because it would artificially prevent build diversity.
    No trait line has a row of talents competing for the exact same goal. Because people would just use the "mathematically best".
    That's why Devastation traits are not tied to Impossible Odds but favoring vulnerability, dual wielding, quickness, might, and direct damage.
    Things you'll have available when playing dual swords + Shiro Tagashi, but not exclusively.

    Well it is true that you dont realy need to use a line with a legend , at least in theory but when it comes to reality youll find that in a lot of ocasions you have todo exactly that , for example in raids , in a condibuild you have to use mallinx and kalla and you have to use corruption and renegade , yes you can use either invocation or devastation but that is because invo fits in every build as it mostly is used as energy management for its GM trait charged mists , and deva is just a dmg trait line. A healing build might be able to choose herald or rene but right now in raid rene alacrity is just too good to choose anything over it and so the lines would be salvation- elite- and again invo for energy management,deva for dmg (wich being a healer maybe its not that important ) , or maybe retribution to make sure you survive and can heal in a training.
    As for a power build , well there you just have deva- invo- renegade, double swords as weapons and shiro-kalla as legends , its not that its the best between the builds for power by 2-3k , its the only decent-being one of the weakest -builds for power builds in raid , i get it you dont need to have builds for every roll you cant be meta in everything ...Oh yes guardian still exists and warrior too , ranger also has builds for almost every roll , chrono is the same .
    What i mean is rev is suposed to be the jack of all trades , more or less, but as a fact were only a good option either condi or as an alacrity source , and thats not even in the game as a hole but in one mode in the other modes there are similar problems with diferent builds , so in fact how can it be that a class designed suposedly to be a jack of all trades in fact is not a jack of all trades(and by that i mean its suposed to fit all the roles in a decet way but having other clases outplay in a specific roll ,like guardian but not being META in everybuild ) well it must be because it bust be a limited class in some traits , legends , weapons that makes certainbuilds tooweak .
    I dont need it to be meta but it should be a middle table class everywere that offers more versatility than the others and more place for changes and adaptation.

  • Kulvar.1239Kulvar.1239 Member ✭✭✭

    @zaswer.5246 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    No trait line is made to be exclusively associated to its corresponding legend. Because it would artificially prevent build diversity.
    No trait line has a row of talents competing for the exact same goal. Because people would just use the "mathematically best".
    That's why Devastation traits are not tied to Impossible Odds but favoring vulnerability, dual wielding, quickness, might, and direct damage.
    Things you'll have available when playing dual swords + Shiro Tagashi, but not exclusively.

    Well it is true that you dont realy need to use a line with a legend , at least in theory but when it comes to reality youll find that in a lot of ocasions you have todo exactly that , for example in raids , in a condibuild you have to use mallinx and kalla and you have to use corruption and renegade , yes you can use either invocation or devastation but that is because invo fits in every build as it mostly is used as energy management for its GM trait charged mists , and deva is just a dmg trait line. A healing build might be able to choose herald or rene but right now in raid rene alacrity is just too good to choose anything over it and so the lines would be salvation- elite- and again invo for energy management,deva for dmg (wich being a healer maybe its not that important ) , or maybe retribution to make sure you survive and can heal in a training.
    As for a power build , well there you just have deva- invo- renegade, double swords as weapons and shiro-kalla as legends , its not that its the best between the builds for power by 2-3k , its the only decent-being one of the weakest -builds for power builds in raid , i get it you dont need to have builds for every roll you cant be meta in everything ...Oh yes guardian still exists and warrior too , ranger also has builds for almost every roll , chrono is the same .
    What i mean is rev is suposed to be the jack of all trades , more or less, but as a fact were only a good option either condi or as an alacrity source , and thats not even in the game as a hole but in one mode in the other modes there are similar problems with diferent builds , so in fact how can it be that a class designed suposedly to be a jack of all trades in fact is not a jack of all trades(and by that i mean its suposed to fit all the roles in a decet way but having other clases outplay in a specific roll ,like guardian but not being META in everybuild ) well it must be because it bust be a limited class in some traits , legends , weapons that makes certainbuilds tooweak .
    I dont need it to be meta but it should be a middle table class everywere that offers more versatility than the others and more place for changes and adaptation.

    You took it the other way I think.
    Devastation has synergy with Shiro.
    But if Devastation only improved Shiro skills, not using Shiro would make Devastation useless.
    Being able to use Devastion without having to use Shiro is a mandatory design.

    Revenant is not supposed to be a jack of all trade. That's Elementalist & Engineer.
    Revenant is supposed to be capable at everything but not all at once, choosing legends fitting to the roles it wants to have.

  • ArthurDent.9538ArthurDent.9538 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    Ok, this one is subpar.

    Really? No one likes having over a minute of fury and 25x might with minimal effort on non-Herald builds?

    You can already get a pretty nice amount of Fury and Might solo without this minor in Renegade.

    Minor Renegade trait Endless Enimity grants 6s Fury when you hit a target under 50% health, on a 8s cooldown.
    Minor Invocation trait Invoker's Rage grants 5s Fury on legend swap, so 10s cooldown.
    Sword 5 skill Deathstrike grants 8s Fury on 15s cooldown.
    Assassin Shiro utility skill Riposting Shadows grants 6s Fury for 30 energy.

    Invoker's Rage + Endless Enimity + Deathstrike above 50% health is enough for a 100% Fury uptime.

    Major Renegade trait Lasting Legacy makes Heroic Commands grants 15x Might for 12s on a 10s cooldown.
    Sword 3 skill Unrelenting Assault grants 5x Might for 8s on a 12s cooldown.
    Major Invocation trait Incensed Response grants 5x Might for 8s every time you get Fury.
    Swap Legend : 5x Might for 8s on a 10s cooldown
    Deathstrike : 5x Might for 8s on a 15s cooldown
    Endless Enimity : 5x Might for 8s on a 8s cooldown
    Riposting Shadows : 5x Might for 8s for 30 energy

    With that you can keep yourself at 25x Might.

    Riposting Shadows is not even necessary if you manage your skill properly so it still works if you swap Shiro for Jalis.

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    They should put Empty Vessel back in that slot.
    With all the CC spam going on these days, that one hardly is over-performing.

    It would be amazing !

    I think you missed the "minimal effort" part. Contained Temper is per target cooldown so use one of our many AoE CCs and you potentially get up to 40 sec fury and 25x might off one skill. For Darkrazor you don't even need that many targets, its got multiple AoE dazes and they hit at the same rate as the trait's cooldown.

    I don't know where you are getting this info from but when I go into the mists and hit 5 target golems at once with jade winds it only procs contained temper once because the cd is not separate per target.

  • Clownmug.8357Clownmug.8357 Member ✭✭✭

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Clownmug.8357 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:

    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    Ok, this one is subpar.

    Really? No one likes having over a minute of fury and 25x might with minimal effort on non-Herald builds?

    You can already get a pretty nice amount of Fury and Might solo without this minor in Renegade.

    Minor Renegade trait Endless Enimity grants 6s Fury when you hit a target under 50% health, on a 8s cooldown.
    Minor Invocation trait Invoker's Rage grants 5s Fury on legend swap, so 10s cooldown.
    Sword 5 skill Deathstrike grants 8s Fury on 15s cooldown.
    Assassin Shiro utility skill Riposting Shadows grants 6s Fury for 30 energy.

    Invoker's Rage + Endless Enimity + Deathstrike above 50% health is enough for a 100% Fury uptime.

    Major Renegade trait Lasting Legacy makes Heroic Commands grants 15x Might for 12s on a 10s cooldown.
    Sword 3 skill Unrelenting Assault grants 5x Might for 8s on a 12s cooldown.
    Major Invocation trait Incensed Response grants 5x Might for 8s every time you get Fury.
    Swap Legend : 5x Might for 8s on a 10s cooldown
    Deathstrike : 5x Might for 8s on a 15s cooldown
    Endless Enimity : 5x Might for 8s on a 8s cooldown
    Riposting Shadows : 5x Might for 8s for 30 energy

    With that you can keep yourself at 25x Might.

    Riposting Shadows is not even necessary if you manage your skill properly so it still works if you swap Shiro for Jalis.

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Yasai.3549 said:

    @Kulvar.1239 said:
    I prefer the current minors over Spirit Boon. So please don't remove a minor to put Spirit Boon !

    Press X to Doubt.
    No one likes Contained Temper.

    They should put Empty Vessel back in that slot.
    With all the CC spam going on these days, that one hardly is over-performing.

    It would be amazing !

    I think you missed the "minimal effort" part. Contained Temper is per target cooldown so use one of our many AoE CCs and you potentially get up to 40 sec fury and 25x might off one skill. For Darkrazor you don't even need that many targets, its got multiple AoE dazes and they hit at the same rate as the trait's cooldown.

    I don't know where you are getting this info from but when I go into the mists and hit 5 target golems at once with jade winds it only procs contained temper once because the cd is not separate per target.

    Oh, well thanks for investigating. Still seems like a good trait in my opinion. I think some people just can't appreciate what we have because they're hung up on losing Empty Vessel.

  • Battle Scars are good damage. The Grandmaster is arguably a bigger DPS increase than the 20^50% hp one.