Why Thief roaming players. Give people a bad impression. Is it caused by infinite stealth stacking? — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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Why Thief roaming players. Give people a bad impression. Is it caused by infinite stealth stacking?

Flee.5602Flee.5602 Member ✭✭

Enter stealth. Arenanet Why not give a certain degree of negative status. As a price to enter stealth.
For example: entering stealth will get Cripple and Weakness

<13

Comments

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Thief play can be fairly obnoxious to people who facetank everything. But also some thieves just play like kitten.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • Sovereign.1093Sovereign.1093 Member ✭✭✭✭

    You got to set your toon to a build to counter thieves if you face them. I think that's just fine. There is a niche for everything in gw2

    Not Even Coverage is the Only broken thing in WVW.

  • avey.4201avey.4201 Member ✭✭✭

    thieves like to roam around in groups of 2-3, typically 2 until you kill 1 then it'll be 3
    but mostly packs of 2-3 tag teaming 1 person, especially kite flying asurans
    a lone thief, like an ele, usually sits near doors so after you kill the guards, and he portal hops 20 times, when you down them they'll use down state to travel through door.
    entire guilds are built around cowardice play styles like these
    since 2/25 balance, and beyond, I've seen these guilds now running warrior, so they can 3v1 to banner their allies/downs
    at least I could use dragons maw against thieves pre 2/25
    now it's bunker meta, and while 3v1 you have to down a single warrior 3x then avoid the skill 3 rally for 15 seconds until he dies if you can troll the other 2 enough from rezzing him as you don't have enough damage as zerk to out cleave the heal, and no way your stomping under 2 warriors cleave.
    least the perma stealth 1 shot deadeyes able to restealth before you can finish dodge animation so you can't counter attack to reveal them until you miss a dodge, they screw up or one shot you from point blank while stacked inside you have subsided.
    it's not thieves, it's oversights by anet devs, eg. can't enter a door while downed under water, but can on land.

  • Gryxis.6950Gryxis.6950 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    The ability to run away from any thing with out with out stealth. Ele d/d back when the game first came out had the same impression and it was nerfed to the ground but for some reason thfs get a pass.

    That's all thief has, ele had self sustain and could actually face tank a bit. And guess what, engie/ranger/guard/mesmer/warrior and ele can still be able to get away or run far enough to force the theif to give up. Remember theif relays on Initiative and that's used a lot to chase people down, ware this away and there is very little they can do and most will not burn shadow step (a stun break) to chase down unless the target is pretty much dead already

    core mesmer and chrono cannot, unless playing a stealth oriented build. You do not have a lot of mobility as a mesmer if you're not playing mirage

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    The ability to run away from any thing with out with out stealth. Ele d/d back when the game first came out had the same impression and it was nerfed to the ground but for some reason thfs get a pass.

    That's all thief has, ele had self sustain and could actually face tank a bit. And guess what, engie/ranger/guard/mesmer/warrior and ele can still be able to get away or run far enough to force the theif to give up. Remember theif relays on Initiative and that's used a lot to chase people down, ware this away and there is very little they can do and most will not burn shadow step (a stun break) to chase down unless the target is pretty much dead already

    All thf has as what as the ability to stack stealth or the ability to blink away or the ability to spam evasion? Thf has a lot of "that all it has." They realy dont at the same level any more after nerfs your classes your saying cant get away as well as they use to and that for the best. Sure there are run away builds still out there but every build on thf has the abitly to run away where your other classes MUST build to only run away. That what effects like stealth and blinks do to a class.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • enkidu.5937enkidu.5937 Member ✭✭✭

    @Flee.5602 said:
    Why Thief roaming players. Give people a bad impression. Is it caused by infinite stealth stacking?

    In general, its resetting fights at will.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    The ability to run away from any thing with out with out stealth. Ele d/d back when the game first came out had the same impression and it was nerfed to the ground but for some reason thfs get a pass.

    That's all thief has, ele had self sustain and could actually face tank a bit. And guess what, engie/ranger/guard/mesmer/warrior and ele can still be able to get away or run far enough to force the theif to give up. Remember theif relays on Initiative and that's used a lot to chase people down, ware this away and there is very little they can do and most will not burn shadow step (a stun break) to chase down unless the target is pretty much dead already

    All thf has as what as the ability to stack stealth or the ability to blink away or the ability to spam evasion? Thf has a lot of "that all it has." They realy dont at the same level any more after nerfs your classes your saying cant get away as well as they use to and that for the best. Sure there are run away builds still out there but every build on thf has the abitly to run away where your other classes MUST build to only run away. That what effects like stealth and blinks do to a class.

    If the thief is doing all of that they're probably not hurting you or they'll hurt you real quick and gas out. Take pulls and other control and scan your peripheral for stealth signs to have an idea of stealth duration, direction, and orientation. Normally when I catch a thief who jumped me I didn't chase them down, I've built to sustain a bit and unload a bunch of stuff rapidly and lock them down close up or pull them in. Some are going to get away and since I didn't freak out dodging and spending all of my stuff on flak when they jumped me I can either now spend my own Initiative and utility like Shadowstep or let them keep themselves busy thinking they're clever and evasive while they don't do anything to my team. Some are just better players and I have to be real about that.

    If they're a problem for you, take it easy and let them show you how to kill them.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    The ability to run away from any thing with out with out stealth. Ele d/d back when the game first came out had the same impression and it was nerfed to the ground but for some reason thfs get a pass.

    That's all thief has, ele had self sustain and could actually face tank a bit. And guess what, engie/ranger/guard/mesmer/warrior and ele can still be able to get away or run far enough to force the theif to give up. Remember theif relays on Initiative and that's used a lot to chase people down, ware this away and there is very little they can do and most will not burn shadow step (a stun break) to chase down unless the target is pretty much dead already

    All thf has as what as the ability to stack stealth or the ability to blink away or the ability to spam evasion? Thf has a lot of "that all it has." They realy dont at the same level any more after nerfs your classes your saying cant get away as well as they use to and that for the best. Sure there are run away builds still out there but every build on thf has the abitly to run away where your other classes MUST build to only run away. That what effects like stealth and blinks do to a class.

    If the thief is doing all of that they're probably not hurting you or they'll hurt you real quick and gas out. Take pulls and other control and scan your peripheral for stealth signs to have an idea of stealth duration, direction, and orientation. Normally when I catch a thief who jumped me I didn't chase them down, I've built to sustain a bit and unload a bunch of stuff rapidly and lock them down close up or pull them in. Some are going to get away and since I didn't freak out dodging and spending all of my stuff on flak when they jumped me I can either now spend my own Initiative and utility like Shadowstep or let them keep themselves busy thinking they're clever and evasive while they don't do anything to my team. Some are just better players and I have to be real about that.

    If they're a problem for you, take it easy and let them show you how to kill them.

    That is true they are not doing dmg most of the time during that but they get too much free outs when it comes to that during condi dmg OR after / before the big hits. There are no classes that are doing things during the same effects as well. If they are running away they are not likely doing dmg.

    Stealth is a way to get gas back for the thf class. Time is every thing in this game and the more you can delay the more effects you can out put and the ability to control that delay is much stronger then not.

    There are a few shadowsteps that for what ever reasion are not effected by lines like other blink effects.
    To kill a thf is very very class dependent only a few set classes and builds can truly kill a thf (out side of bad thfs) having both mobility and stealth is a real problem for balancing.

    As well as stun brakes spame. Its ok for the thf class to have these things but they need to be forced to build for them giving up every thing to have them like other classes. If your still doing a 9k back stab or doing 2k condi ticks and still have these effects there is something broken about the build / class.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    The ability to run away from any thing with out with out stealth. Ele d/d back when the game first came out had the same impression and it was nerfed to the ground but for some reason thfs get a pass.

    That's all thief has, ele had self sustain and could actually face tank a bit. And guess what, engie/ranger/guard/mesmer/warrior and ele can still be able to get away or run far enough to force the theif to give up. Remember theif relays on Initiative and that's used a lot to chase people down, ware this away and there is very little they can do and most will not burn shadow step (a stun break) to chase down unless the target is pretty much dead already

    All thf has as what as the ability to stack stealth or the ability to blink away or the ability to spam evasion? Thf has a lot of "that all it has." They realy dont at the same level any more after nerfs your classes your saying cant get away as well as they use to and that for the best. Sure there are run away builds still out there but every build on thf has the abitly to run away where your other classes MUST build to only run away. That what effects like stealth and blinks do to a class.

    If the thief is doing all of that they're probably not hurting you or they'll hurt you real quick and gas out. Take pulls and other control and scan your peripheral for stealth signs to have an idea of stealth duration, direction, and orientation. Normally when I catch a thief who jumped me I didn't chase them down, I've built to sustain a bit and unload a bunch of stuff rapidly and lock them down close up or pull them in. Some are going to get away and since I didn't freak out dodging and spending all of my stuff on flak when they jumped me I can either now spend my own Initiative and utility like Shadowstep or let them keep themselves busy thinking they're clever and evasive while they don't do anything to my team. Some are just better players and I have to be real about that.

    If they're a problem for you, take it easy and let them show you how to kill them.

    That is true they are not doing dmg most of the time during that but they get too much free outs when it comes to that during condi dmg OR after / before the big hits. There are no classes that are doing things during the same effects as well. If they are running away they are not likely doing dmg.

    Stealth is a way to get gas back for the thf class. Time is every thing in this game and the more you can delay the more effects you can out put and the ability to control that delay is much stronger then not.

    There are a few shadowsteps that for what ever reasion are not effected by lines like other blink effects.
    To kill a thf is very very class dependent only a few set classes and builds can truly kill a thf (out side of bad thfs) having both mobility and stealth is a real problem for balancing.

    As well as stun brakes spame. Its ok for the thf class to have these things but they need to be forced to build for them giving up every thing to have them like other classes. If your still doing a 9k back stab or doing 2k condi ticks and still have these effects there is something broken about the build / class.

    Thieves can spam stunbreaks? Other than shadow step on a decent cd and blinding powder if the take that utility what stunbreak they spamming?

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    The ability to run away from any thing with out with out stealth. Ele d/d back when the game first came out had the same impression and it was nerfed to the ground but for some reason thfs get a pass.

    That's all thief has, ele had self sustain and could actually face tank a bit. And guess what, engie/ranger/guard/mesmer/warrior and ele can still be able to get away or run far enough to force the theif to give up. Remember theif relays on Initiative and that's used a lot to chase people down, ware this away and there is very little they can do and most will not burn shadow step (a stun break) to chase down unless the target is pretty much dead already

    All thf has as what as the ability to stack stealth or the ability to blink away or the ability to spam evasion? Thf has a lot of "that all it has." They realy dont at the same level any more after nerfs your classes your saying cant get away as well as they use to and that for the best. Sure there are run away builds still out there but every build on thf has the abitly to run away where your other classes MUST build to only run away. That what effects like stealth and blinks do to a class.

    If the thief is doing all of that they're probably not hurting you or they'll hurt you real quick and gas out. Take pulls and other control and scan your peripheral for stealth signs to have an idea of stealth duration, direction, and orientation. Normally when I catch a thief who jumped me I didn't chase them down, I've built to sustain a bit and unload a bunch of stuff rapidly and lock them down close up or pull them in. Some are going to get away and since I didn't freak out dodging and spending all of my stuff on flak when they jumped me I can either now spend my own Initiative and utility like Shadowstep or let them keep themselves busy thinking they're clever and evasive while they don't do anything to my team. Some are just better players and I have to be real about that.

    If they're a problem for you, take it easy and let them show you how to kill them.

    That is true they are not doing dmg most of the time during that but they get too much free outs when it comes to that during condi dmg OR after / before the big hits. There are no classes that are doing things during the same effects as well. If they are running away they are not likely doing dmg.

    Stealth is a way to get gas back for the thf class. Time is every thing in this game and the more you can delay the more effects you can out put and the ability to control that delay is much stronger then not.

    There are a few shadowsteps that for what ever reasion are not effected by lines like other blink effects.
    To kill a thf is very very class dependent only a few set classes and builds can truly kill a thf (out side of bad thfs) having both mobility and stealth is a real problem for balancing.

    As well as stun brakes spame. Its ok for the thf class to have these things but they need to be forced to build for them giving up every thing to have them like other classes. If your still doing a 9k back stab or doing 2k condi ticks and still have these effects there is something broken about the build / class.

    Thieves can spam stunbreaks? Other than shadow step on a decent cd and blinding powder if the take that utility what stunbreak they spamming?

    Just the number of skills that thf can use during stun like a blink and the number of skills that have stunbreak on them with other effects. (I realty though there was another effect that let them spam stunbrake but i guess i was missing seeing effects the stunbrake on stun AND get max evasion back may seem like a spam of stunbreaks but that what this is about what makes thf seems like it needs nerfing.)

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 11, 2020

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    The ability to run away from any thing with out with out stealth. Ele d/d back when the game first came out had the same impression and it was nerfed to the ground but for some reason thfs get a pass.

    That's all thief has, ele had self sustain and could actually face tank a bit. And guess what, engie/ranger/guard/mesmer/warrior and ele can still be able to get away or run far enough to force the theif to give up. Remember theif relays on Initiative and that's used a lot to chase people down, ware this away and there is very little they can do and most will not burn shadow step (a stun break) to chase down unless the target is pretty much dead already

    All thf has as what as the ability to stack stealth or the ability to blink away or the ability to spam evasion? Thf has a lot of "that all it has." They realy dont at the same level any more after nerfs your classes your saying cant get away as well as they use to and that for the best. Sure there are run away builds still out there but every build on thf has the abitly to run away where your other classes MUST build to only run away. That what effects like stealth and blinks do to a class.

    If the thief is doing all of that they're probably not hurting you or they'll hurt you real quick and gas out. Take pulls and other control and scan your peripheral for stealth signs to have an idea of stealth duration, direction, and orientation. Normally when I catch a thief who jumped me I didn't chase them down, I've built to sustain a bit and unload a bunch of stuff rapidly and lock them down close up or pull them in. Some are going to get away and since I didn't freak out dodging and spending all of my stuff on flak when they jumped me I can either now spend my own Initiative and utility like Shadowstep or let them keep themselves busy thinking they're clever and evasive while they don't do anything to my team. Some are just better players and I have to be real about that.

    If they're a problem for you, take it easy and let them show you how to kill them.

    That is true they are not doing dmg most of the time during that but they get too much free outs when it comes to that during condi dmg OR after / before the big hits. There are no classes that are doing things during the same effects as well. If they are running away they are not likely doing dmg.

    Stealth is a way to get gas back for the thf class. Time is every thing in this game and the more you can delay the more effects you can out put and the ability to control that delay is much stronger then not.

    There are a few shadowsteps that for what ever reasion are not effected by lines like other blink effects.
    To kill a thf is very very class dependent only a few set classes and builds can truly kill a thf (out side of bad thfs) having both mobility and stealth is a real problem for balancing.

    As well as stun brakes spame. Its ok for the thf class to have these things but they need to be forced to build for them giving up every thing to have them like other classes. If your still doing a 9k back stab or doing 2k condi ticks and still have these effects there is something broken about the build / class.

    Definitely not class dependent, it's mostly staying calm and adjusting your build over time, which changes over time due to server transfers and everything else.
    That thief jumping you might have all of those things but they still have to make build decisions and some of those things just aren't going to be a factor or might even be counter productive if they're overextending past their builds capabilities which will happen. I think you're overselling to yourself the requirements to counter some classes and what people are packing out there, most of the time you can just let people mess up until they die or they've done the same to you.

    Adding: stun breaks take slots, that's a build choice you can make them trip on.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    No skills are also stunbreaks and only shadoestep, blinding powder are, the have high evade uptime but actually low stunbreaks

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭

    U ever seen a thief vs good power rev? It's funny when their not DE's and u reveal em with glints reveal lol they be like oh $hit and either leave or usually get destroyed.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I think what bothers people the most is stealth disengage and re-engage.

    Yesterday at reset I was playing my berserker in WvW (I main ranger, just felt like playing something different lately) and my gf and I were trying to do our daily within a few minutes before I had to leave for work.

    Had a rifle condition based deadeye follow us all over the map plucking away at us, downing her frequently. I'm the more PvP oriented player of the two of us, however if I managed to land a stun and/or attack, he'd shadow step away and enter stealth. Then re-engage after resetting the fight and keep plucking away again. It was annoying/obnoxious to have to deal with, not to mention even though I had a decent amount of cleanse and resistance, the cooldowns were too long considering after using a cleanse when needed if I hit him, he'd just reset the fight but my cleanse would still be on cooldown. The spam immobilize made it even worse.

    We got our daily done and eventually managed to break combat from the condi thief but it was literally us going down after down and down, while stealth/conditions and high disengage/engage allowed him to harass and try to kill endlessly. I'm not saying it was OP, but it was a very unskilled tactic combining some of the most unfun things to fight in this game.

    and this is why thief either needs to get nerfed into the ground or stealth being removed from the game.

    Thankfully, you are not a developer cause many people paid good money for access to classes with stealth. For 5 years on this board all I have ever seen you post about is how you hate stealth. But your kind of complaints has already essentially killed Mesmer outside of PvE so you gonna help me get my refunds?

    That said:

    I have long said that stealth needs adjustments to be used for scouting and starting an attack only. Once that thief or Mesmer is in the fight, they should either have to finish it or get far enough away to re-engage stealth that an easy follow up attack is not viable. I can think of only 2 skills where exceptions should be made, Hunter's Shot and The Prestige and only because the entire point of those 2 skills are combat repositioning, are slow, require hits and have drawbacks, as well as a high cooldown (for weapon skills).

    And it looking like 'predator cloak' to enemies when you are too close (200-250 units, maybe 300) would also help. Yeah, it would break targeting, but not invalidate all cleave and AoE skill use.

    Stealth should be SNEAKY, not a mid-melee attack skill.

    I can almost be cool with that except that would get adjusted to be a powerhouse of a Stealth Attack. I have quite a few secondary mods going off on basic actions pretty quickly and I think that would lead to a one-shot meta. I treat players and everything really as though they had breakbars even when they don't, it just seems to be an easy to follow guildline for the lazy like me to burn stuff faster, so I use Stealth Attacks like Tactical Strike quite a few times in one fight even though I'm barely in stealth in most fights. Mechanics would have to change because thief ability to stay in a fight is already fragile enough and the use of gimmicks or showy mechanics is what leads to a lot of nerf threads but those things are necessary.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • ASP.8093ASP.8093 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    U ever seen a thief vs good power rev? It's funny when their not DE's and u reveal em with glints reveal lol they be like oh $hit and either leave or usually get destroyed.

    Well, yeah. You're disrupting both a major damage source and their primary defensive mechanic. So it makes sense that they'd run or melt.

  • Bigpapasmurf.5623Bigpapasmurf.5623 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ASP.8093 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    U ever seen a thief vs good power rev? It's funny when their not DE's and u reveal em with glints reveal lol they be like oh $hit and either leave or usually get destroyed.

    Well, yeah. You're disrupting both a major damage source and their primary defensive mechanic. So it makes sense that they'd run or melt.

    Even as a DE watch them try hard to Meld it (a bit of a warm up)....assuming they arent running basi or thieves guild

    Red = Dead...or someone runs away. Either way it's gone.
    twitch.tv/TRMC
    Lover of Jumping puzzles, Squirrels, WvW, and Taimi
    CLOK Commander and all around nice bro

  • Strider.7849Strider.7849 Member ✭✭✭

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I think what bothers people the most is stealth disengage and re-engage.

    Yesterday at reset I was playing my berserker in WvW (I main ranger, just felt like playing something different lately) and my gf and I were trying to do our daily within a few minutes before I had to leave for work.

    Had a rifle condition based deadeye follow us all over the map plucking away at us, downing her frequently. I'm the more PvP oriented player of the two of us, however if I managed to land a stun and/or attack, he'd shadow step away and enter stealth. Then re-engage after resetting the fight and keep plucking away again. It was annoying/obnoxious to have to deal with, not to mention even though I had a decent amount of cleanse and resistance, the cooldowns were too long considering after using a cleanse when needed if I hit him, he'd just reset the fight but my cleanse would still be on cooldown. The spam immobilize made it even worse.

    We got our daily done and eventually managed to break combat from the condi thief but it was literally us going down after down and down, while stealth/conditions and high disengage/engage allowed him to harass and try to kill endlessly. I'm not saying it was OP, but it was a very unskilled tactic combining some of the most unfun things to fight in this game.

    Dang, this is probably the most likes I've ever had on a comment. I take it a lot of people get trolled by this too.

  • Jski.6180Jski.6180 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    The ability to run away from any thing with out with out stealth. Ele d/d back when the game first came out had the same impression and it was nerfed to the ground but for some reason thfs get a pass.

    That's all thief has, ele had self sustain and could actually face tank a bit. And guess what, engie/ranger/guard/mesmer/warrior and ele can still be able to get away or run far enough to force the theif to give up. Remember theif relays on Initiative and that's used a lot to chase people down, ware this away and there is very little they can do and most will not burn shadow step (a stun break) to chase down unless the target is pretty much dead already

    All thf has as what as the ability to stack stealth or the ability to blink away or the ability to spam evasion? Thf has a lot of "that all it has." They realy dont at the same level any more after nerfs your classes your saying cant get away as well as they use to and that for the best. Sure there are run away builds still out there but every build on thf has the abitly to run away where your other classes MUST build to only run away. That what effects like stealth and blinks do to a class.

    If the thief is doing all of that they're probably not hurting you or they'll hurt you real quick and gas out. Take pulls and other control and scan your peripheral for stealth signs to have an idea of stealth duration, direction, and orientation. Normally when I catch a thief who jumped me I didn't chase them down, I've built to sustain a bit and unload a bunch of stuff rapidly and lock them down close up or pull them in. Some are going to get away and since I didn't freak out dodging and spending all of my stuff on flak when they jumped me I can either now spend my own Initiative and utility like Shadowstep or let them keep themselves busy thinking they're clever and evasive while they don't do anything to my team. Some are just better players and I have to be real about that.

    If they're a problem for you, take it easy and let them show you how to kill them.

    That is true they are not doing dmg most of the time during that but they get too much free outs when it comes to that during condi dmg OR after / before the big hits. There are no classes that are doing things during the same effects as well. If they are running away they are not likely doing dmg.

    Stealth is a way to get gas back for the thf class. Time is every thing in this game and the more you can delay the more effects you can out put and the ability to control that delay is much stronger then not.

    There are a few shadowsteps that for what ever reasion are not effected by lines like other blink effects.
    To kill a thf is very very class dependent only a few set classes and builds can truly kill a thf (out side of bad thfs) having both mobility and stealth is a real problem for balancing.

    As well as stun brakes spame. Its ok for the thf class to have these things but they need to be forced to build for them giving up every thing to have them like other classes. If your still doing a 9k back stab or doing 2k condi ticks and still have these effects there is something broken about the build / class.

    Definitely not class dependent, it's mostly staying calm and adjusting your build over time, which changes over time due to server transfers and everything else.
    That thief jumping you might have all of those things but they still have to make build decisions and some of those things just aren't going to be a factor or might even be counter productive if they're overextending past their builds capabilities which will happen. I think you're overselling to yourself the requirements to counter some classes and what people are packing out there, most of the time you can just let people mess up until they die or they've done the same to you.

    Adding: stun breaks take slots, that's a build choice you can make them trip on.

    I would be underselling my self if i think its class dependent to kill a thf!

    I am just trying to point out that much like the old ele ppl did not want to give up its staying point at any cost so anet nerfed the dps of the old d/d ele to the ground as well as stun brake "spam" from its cantrips witch was removed. The same thing is happening to thf and it sounds like its going to keep happening. I think thf should hit hard and do good dps for the risk of doing mostly melee BUT this means thf should not have as much staying power (though stealth evasion and mobility) that it has.

    Anet is going to keep going after thf even if you do not think they should.

    See ELE forms and you will get my views.

  • Justine.6351Justine.6351 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I mean this is what happens when you nerf all the other ranged power classes, the thieves get away with this type of play relatively unchecked.

    Made this a couple years ago, I doubt I could ever do this again in todays game,

    You guys make your own problems. We already had zerg builds that could kill these pesky thieves. And now here we are.

    Anet buff me :-(
    Make me good at game!

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just make revealed mechanic more enticing to use over stealthing - you don't even need to change how stealth works. If it's worth more being revealed than stealthing, you'll start seeing less thieves in stealth, if only to proc or gain whatever buff can be tacked onto reveal training/flickering shadows/etc (and switch some of the traits that give buffs going into stealth only when revealed). In the end, I think whatever build a thief uses, people are still going to be complaining about them mostly due to class bias.

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Just the permanent disengage. It's frustrating if you can't keep up and if they play it right you probably end up wasting cooldowns during your one chance to burst them down maybe.

    I rather choose death.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @DemonSeed.3528 said:
    Just make revealed mechanic more enticing to use over stealthing - you don't even need to change how stealth works. If it's worth more being revealed than stealthing, you'll start seeing less thieves in stealth, if only to proc or gain whatever buff can be tacked onto reveal training/flickering shadows/etc (and switch some of the traits that give buffs going into stealth only when revealed). In the end, I think whatever build a thief uses, people are still going to be complaining about them mostly due to class bias.

    I used to build around being Revealed with the old version of Malicious Intent and revealed training and then whatever else I could have going off within that same window of landing hits and being hit. I still build in an indirect way in and around that same window and still mostly play the same way even fitting Stealth Attacks for secondary mods from interrupts, blinds, etc instead of the strait up stat boost from the old traits at about the same spot. There's a lot of flak to punch through in WvW though that can take up that whole window and it can come down to having to stagger out stealth, evades, and mobility and it's going to look gimmicky from another players end.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • @Gryxis.6950 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @Jski.6180 said:
    The ability to run away from any thing with out with out stealth. Ele d/d back when the game first came out had the same impression and it was nerfed to the ground but for some reason thfs get a pass.

    That's all thief has, ele had self sustain and could actually face tank a bit. And guess what, engie/ranger/guard/mesmer/warrior and ele can still be able to get away or run far enough to force the theif to give up. Remember theif relays on Initiative and that's used a lot to chase people down, ware this away and there is very little they can do and most will not burn shadow step (a stun break) to chase down unless the target is pretty much dead already

    core mesmer and chrono cannot, unless playing a stealth oriented build. You do not have a lot of mobility as a mesmer if you're not playing mirage

    Mirage don't have a lot of mobility that are ranged outside of Blink and Mirage Advance (utility skill that teleport to target and need a enemy target to work). Axe can move forward a bit and have short range teleport, so in general Mirage is not that mobile as all skills either need a target to activate and are based on being in melee range (300-900 range). Only Blink can move player to 1200 Range.

    The only exception would be if there are some Runes on armour to increase base movement speed or Swiftness/Superspeed (boon).

    Do remember in WvW Mirage do not have access to two doges any more, so it would put Mirage in danger to chase enemy player with Jaunt (also only two time in short succession before it will go on 30 sec CD - 2 x 450 range if used to catch up a player). On paper it might look like Mirage have high ability to catch up, but that would put player at risk of counter attacks of any kind (very probably loose targeting from Stealth and also get damaged from conditions if not Jaunt and condi cleanse are off cooldown).

  • Oh remember, if you are being hunted by a thief with lots of invis, just go stand next to a sentry or near a tower with radar (forget if that's T2 or T3). You will really mess up their day then.

  • @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:
    Oh remember, if you are being hunted by a thief with lots of invis, just go stand next to a sentry or near a tower with radar (forget if that's T2 or T3). You will really mess up their day then.

    Doesn't matter what tier tower is, it must have "Watchtower" tactic to put "Marked" on enemies.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There just shouldnt be permastealth. Its exploiting and destroying too many game mechanics. for example "staying at the lord in freshly taken keeps"
    Even though they should mark them. They dont.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    There just shouldnt be permastealth. Its exploiting and destroying too many game mechanics. for example "staying at the lord in freshly taken keeps"
    Even though they should mark them. They dont.

    The post above yours solved your issue. You can place traps or everyone can sweep and cleave for free before everyone bounces. Most of us don't bother though and that's the WvW life.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • SlitheSlivier.1908SlitheSlivier.1908 Member ✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    There just shouldnt be permastealth. Its exploiting and destroying too many game mechanics. for example "staying at the lord in freshly taken keeps"
    Even though they should mark them. They dont.

    Freshly taken keeps mark everyone for 5 minutes so what you are saying is false. They did that years ago i think. It now only works in towers.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 12, 2020

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    There just shouldnt be permastealth. Its exploiting and destroying too many game mechanics. for example "staying at the lord in freshly taken keeps"
    Even though they should mark them. They dont.

    The post above yours solved your issue. You can place traps or everyone can sweep and cleave for free before everyone bounces. Most of us don't bother though and that's the WvW life.

    As long as there is Reveal-cleansing ,traps dont do anything.
    Also being marked doesnt mean u cant go invisible. U still can.

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    There just shouldnt be permastealth. Its exploiting and destroying too many game mechanics. for example "staying at the lord in freshly taken keeps"
    Even though they should mark them. They dont.

    The post above yours solved your issue. You can place traps or everyone can sweep and cleave for free before everyone bounces. Most of us don't bother though and that's the WvW life.

    As long as there is Reveal-cleansing ,traps dont do anything.
    Also being marked doesnt mean u cant go invisible. U still can.

    Going stealth doesn't mean you can't be hit. If they're "staying at the lord" I'm pretty sure they're getting marked soon and if not, it's a newly taken keep, why not cleave and blast the area real quick before you all leave?

    I would like it if people would post their matchup and login times when claiming they see something like "permastealth" thieves soloing keeps with everyone on their map standing around all day.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL] & [SD]

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I think what bothers people the most is stealth disengage and re-engage.

    Yesterday at reset I was playing my berserker in WvW (I main ranger, just felt like playing something different lately) and my gf and I were trying to do our daily within a few minutes before I had to leave for work.

    Had a rifle condition based deadeye follow us all over the map plucking away at us, downing her frequently. I'm the more PvP oriented player of the two of us, however if I managed to land a stun and/or attack, he'd shadow step away and enter stealth. Then re-engage after resetting the fight and keep plucking away again. It was annoying/obnoxious to have to deal with, not to mention even though I had a decent amount of cleanse and resistance, the cooldowns were too long considering after using a cleanse when needed if I hit him, he'd just reset the fight but my cleanse would still be on cooldown. The spam immobilize made it even worse.

    Hold on, if you land a stun, the only way he can shadowstep away is by using, well, Shadowstep. But then he cant reengage until its back up, which is a 50 second cooldown. There is no way your resistance or cleanse cooldowns are longer than than the Shadowstep cooldown. Berserker Stance is 40 seconds, isnt it? So while annoying, that fight shouldve been nothing more than an annoyance, with no chance for him to ever even down you, or for that matter stick close enough.

    We got our daily done and eventually managed to break combat from the condi thief but it was literally us going down after down and down, while stealth/conditions and high disengage/engage allowed him to harass and try to kill endlessly. I'm not saying it was OP, but it was a very unskilled tactic combining some of the most unfun things to fight in this game.

    Stealth does jack all in that scenario. As for engage/disengage, yeah thats kinda WvW. Its not like Warriors are any different. If you get close to killing them, they just use their mobility to escape, and if its on flat ground, no class can keep up (not even thief).

  • saerni.2584saerni.2584 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @SlitheSlivier.1908 said:
    Oh remember, if you are being hunted by a thief with lots of invis, just go stand next to a sentry or near a tower with radar (forget if that's T2 or T3). You will really mess up their day then.

    Actually, I build around weaving stealth in 2 second durations. Basically, WvW made long duration stealth unfavorable in many engagements. So I adapted.

    But yeah, marked is easy to apply (throw a painter or use a watchtower or sentry. Then they can’t stealth longer than two seconds.

    But, big whoops if they know about the marked and don’t care.

    Northern Shiverpeaks (NSP)
    Deadeye (Thief)
    Commandant of P/D and Apex Predator

  • @Kylden Ar.3724 said:

    @VAHNeunzehnsechundsiebzig.3618 said:

    @Strider.7849 said:
    I think what bothers people the most is stealth disengage and re-engage.

    Yesterday at reset I was playing my berserker in WvW (I main ranger, just felt like playing something different lately) and my gf and I were trying to do our daily within a few minutes before I had to leave for work.

    Had a rifle condition based deadeye follow us all over the map plucking away at us, downing her frequently. I'm the more PvP oriented player of the two of us, however if I managed to land a stun and/or attack, he'd shadow step away and enter stealth. Then re-engage after resetting the fight and keep plucking away again. It was annoying/obnoxious to have to deal with, not to mention even though I had a decent amount of cleanse and resistance, the cooldowns were too long considering after using a cleanse when needed if I hit him, he'd just reset the fight but my cleanse would still be on cooldown. The spam immobilize made it even worse.

    We got our daily done and eventually managed to break combat from the condi thief but it was literally us going down after down and down, while stealth/conditions and high disengage/engage allowed him to harass and try to kill endlessly. I'm not saying it was OP, but it was a very unskilled tactic combining some of the most unfun things to fight in this game.

    and this is why thief either needs to get nerfed into the ground or stealth being removed from the game.

    Thankfully, you are not a developer cause many people paid good money for access to classes with stealth. For 5 years on this board all I have ever seen you post about is how you hate stealth. But your kind of complaints has already essentially killed Mesmer outside of PvE so you gonna help me get my refunds?

    and I paid good money not to be hit out of stealth by attacks dealing 50+% percent damage. Or more than 100 pre the big balance patch. So are you stealth abusers refund me?

    That said, I am not even playing for 5 yrs, so I can't even complain that long about this mind boggling stupid mechanic that should have never been introduced into the game.

  • Virdo.1540Virdo.1540 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 13, 2020

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:

    @kash.9213 said:

    @Virdo.1540 said:
    There just shouldnt be permastealth. Its exploiting and destroying too many game mechanics. for example "staying at the lord in freshly taken keeps"
    Even though they should mark them. They dont.

    The post above yours solved your issue. You can place traps or everyone can sweep and cleave for free before everyone bounces. Most of us don't bother though and that's the WvW life.

    As long as there is Reveal-cleansing ,traps dont do anything.
    Also being marked doesnt mean u cant go invisible. U still can.

    Going stealth doesn't mean you can't be hit. If they're "staying at the lord" I'm pretty sure they're getting marked soon and if not, it's a newly taken keep, why not cleave and blast the area real quick before you all leave?

    I would like it if people would post their matchup and login times when claiming they see something like "permastealth" thieves soloing keeps with everyone on their map standing around all day.

    Thats sadly the daily routine here.
    And the lord rooms are pretty big. So good luck hitting them

  • DemonSeed.3528DemonSeed.3528 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Keeps mark you when it flips, so does garrison, only towers/sm do not. There is a certain criteria where it would not mark which I will not discuss here, which can be done by all regardless of class, but in general when a keep/garrison flips it will mark you.

  • Heibi.4251Heibi.4251 Member ✭✭✭

    Yep my stealth/thief adjustments that I have always said need to be implemented are:
    1. When stealhted you must move at walk speed in order to be "stealthy".
    2. No spiking from stealth.
    3. No stealthing while in combat. Blinding is one thing but going invis is completely different.
    4. Longer cooldowns on stealth - much longer.
    5. Once revealed you stay revealed until timer is gone - i.e. Target Painters - no traiting to insta-re-stealth and ignore certain mechanics.
    6. Portal should be changed to thief only - period. The current meta is completely unbalanced. Also the timing needs to be adjusted. It should be just like the mesmer portal timing. Right now a thief can drop the portal and run away for almost a minute then port back and drop another immediately.
    7. While in keeps that have just flipped you cannot stealth. Currently you can stealth and your dot vanishes and you are NOT MARKED. And with the ridiculous stealth stacking you can stay stealthed for a very long time - nearly permanent(with tiny visible windows.)

    Henge of Denravi Commander
    CA/CH/HOD/AIR

  • Heibi.4251Heibi.4251 Member ✭✭✭

    @ferbz.6987 said:

    @Heibi.4251 said:
    Yep my stealth/thief adjustments that I have always said need to be implemented are:
    1. When stealhted you must move at walk speed in order to be "stealthy".
    2. No spiking from stealth.
    3. No stealthing while in combat. Blinding is one thing but going invis is completely different.
    4. Longer cooldowns on stealth - much longer.
    5. Once revealed you stay revealed until timer is gone - i.e. Target Painters - no traiting to insta-re-stealth and ignore certain mechanics.
    6. Portal should be changed to thief only - period. The current meta is completely unbalanced. Also the timing needs to be adjusted. It should be just like the mesmer portal timing. Right now a thief can drop the portal and run away for almost a minute then port back and drop another immediately.
    7. While in keeps that have just flipped you cannot stealth. Currently you can stealth and your dot vanishes and you are NOT MARKED. And with the ridiculous stealth stacking you can stay stealthed for a very long time - nearly permanent(with tiny visible windows.)

    You can't take with out giving, what are you 7 suggestions to compensate what you are suggesting to remove?

    Why should there be give and take when stealth is so broken? Sorry, with stealth in its current form I'm for take-take-take. And we're only talking about the thief here, currently a favorite of some dev since it keeps getting MORE stealth and that ridiculous portal.

    Henge of Denravi Commander
    CA/CH/HOD/AIR

  • aleron.1438aleron.1438 Member ✭✭✭

    @Heibi.4251 said:

    @ferbz.6987 said:

    @Heibi.4251 said:
    Yep my stealth/thief adjustments that I have always said need to be implemented are:
    1. When stealhted you must move at walk speed in order to be "stealthy".
    2. No spiking from stealth.
    3. No stealthing while in combat. Blinding is one thing but going invis is completely different.
    4. Longer cooldowns on stealth - much longer.
    5. Once revealed you stay revealed until timer is gone - i.e. Target Painters - no traiting to insta-re-stealth and ignore certain mechanics.
    6. Portal should be changed to thief only - period. The current meta is completely unbalanced. Also the timing needs to be adjusted. It should be just like the mesmer portal timing. Right now a thief can drop the portal and run away for almost a minute then port back and drop another immediately.
    7. While in keeps that have just flipped you cannot stealth. Currently you can stealth and your dot vanishes and you are NOT MARKED. And with the ridiculous stealth stacking you can stay stealthed for a very long time - nearly permanent(with tiny visible windows.)

    You can't take with out giving, what are you 7 suggestions to compensate what you are suggesting to remove?

    Why should there be give and take when stealth is so broken? Sorry, with stealth in its current form I'm for take-take-take. And we're only talking about the thief here, currently a favorite of some dev since it keeps getting MORE stealth and that ridiculous portal.

    Keep it up with the lies Heibi! Buff them lies good!

    Do you want me to pull up the records of the stealth nerds across the patches now too?

  • Threather.9354Threather.9354 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited June 14, 2020

    Some thieves play alone which is respectable, the class itself isn't that strong and is hard to play.

    Most tho just gank single players in a group while stacking on strong servers. They leave high ranks alone and jump on low ranks. Also dueling died becaue toxic thieves started adding in 1v1s, you can smack any other class with 2 people dueling except thief will just burst, daggerstorm the down and then run away.

    But tbf thief mains still feel much more useful than ranger ones. I guess because their class forces them to think constantly instead of being able to turn off brain due to massive range most of time.

    Ri Ba - WvW Commander, scout, innovator
    Social Experiment [sX] leader
    Desolation+Alt
    Diamond Legend

  • Ubi.4136Ubi.4136 Member ✭✭✭✭

    There are several problems with stealth. Not all of those problems are even thief related.

    1. Stealth should not be random or timed, it should be turn on or turn off, meaning permanent unless combat actions are taken or revealed/damaged.
    2. Players should move slower in stealth, ~60% move speed untraited, 80-85% normal speed if traited (obviously have to add those traits).
    3. Stealth players should always be visible in a radius around you, ~120 maybe. That way you get a fraction of a second for counterplay as you would see them right before attacked. Mounted players would not get the detection radius. No mounted hunting parties looking for slower moving stealthers.
    4. Revealed (all forms, even marked) need removed and replaced with an increased detection radius (maybe 240) if traited (obv. need to add that too).
    5. Removal of reveal means the thief portal needs changed/removed or set to thief only. Due to permanent stealth availability.
    6. Stealth ends when combat starts. Once in combat, the stealther can not restealth (deadeye elite being the only way to stealth in combat, on a single use charge). This requires reworking a lot of things on multiple classes.
    7. Weapon skills require a target to use (including spirit weapons and wells/shades). This prevents spamming marks/aoe's to tag stealthers and remove stealth. Traps would still put the stealther in combat and remove stealth (maybe a specific few). All skills would require line of sight to use. No more rev porting through obstacles or barrage shots over walls. This would also make walls usable for defenders, since now spamming aoe's on walls would give you "no line of sight to target", or "out of range". Siege damage would not remove stealth, except the arrow cart skill.
    8. Very short duration stealth skills are available to classes other than thieves to aid with mass combat, mesmer and engineer for example. Stealth from combo fields would be removed, no other classes would have access to stealth (druid F5 and ranger pets reworked). Kind of like how necro should be the only class with access to fear (like anet told us at launch), but that's for another thread.

    This is the short version, and it would go a long way to fixing a lot of other issues, including stealth.

    Lost in the Maguuma (TC)
    For the geographically challenged, yes, Tarnished Coast is located IN the Maguuma Jungle.