Necromancer could really do with a unique condition.

Necromancer... Is weird. Unlike every other class in the game, they're forbidden to have access to boons like, at all.

This presents a problem in PvE, where most conditions are outright useless (Weakness, Cripple, Chill, Slow, Blind, Immobilize, Taunt and Fear all do nothing against bosses besides some breakbar damage and against trash... Well, trash explodes before it's really possible to apply conditions much less actually see their effects) and thus limits the supportive capabilities of Necro's.

Even more so when the singular non-damaging condition that is actually useful in PvE, Vulnerability, is applied by pretty much everyone and their cat, making the 25 stack cap a given and thus not in any real need of something like a dedicated Vuln applier class (Which Necro would be decent for with its ample ability to apply Vulnerability with things like GS3, Unyeilding Blast, Death's Embrace)

As such, it would seem that the ideal solution would be for Necromancers to be able to apply and maintain a unique condition. One that will, unlike most non-damaging conditions, actually work against enemies with Defiance and would provide a unique avenue of team support for them much like how some other classes bring unique buffs such as Warrior's Banners, Ranger's Spirits (Notably Frost Spirit's 5% damage increase) and Precision aura, Renegade's Life Siphon from Soulcleave's Summit and of course the trifecta of Chrono/FB/Rene with their Alacrity/Quickness.

The trick for something like this though, would need to be something that is useful, but can stack so that multiple Necromancers in a party doesn't have diminishing returns and it can't be too strong because unlike some other party buffs, a condition doesn't have a target cap for who can benefit from it.

It's also worth noting, that there could in fact be multiple unique conditions from Necro's, tailored towards specific E-Specs (I.e. Reaper could provide something with power related scaling such as direct damage similar to the likes of Soulcleave's Summit/Signet of Vampirism. While Scourge could provide something that scales with their Condition stats or just something that provides general support)

As far as ideas of exactly what form this/these condition(s) should take, I dunno...

Maybe something like:

Blisters - When being struck, take X damage. Can only occur once per Y interval. This damage cannot critically strike.

Doom - A percentage of damage taken over the duration of this condition is dealt as condition damage when it expires or is removed.

Debilitated - While active, the maximum stacks of Vulnerability you can have active is increased by X.

Or something.

What do you all think about such a thing? What would be your ideas for a unique Necro condition?

They'd nerf it to the point of it not being worth trying to build for

How careless they was with the balance patch, anet dosent care lol

Initially it was Torment that was unique to necro, but then it spread around to other classes, specifically one that spits out a ton of it (Revenant).

I dont know. I mean, they could bring back Disease from GW1, which was basically a longer lasting poison that spread around enemies of the same type, acting like an auto-epidemic skill. But it'd be hated in competitive play.

@KidRoleplay.3615 said:Initially it was Torment that was unique to necro, but then it spread around to other classesWhen torment was introduced it was added to necro, mesmer and thief. It was never necro specific from the word go.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@KidRoleplay.3615 said:Initially it was Torment that was unique to necro, but then it spread around to other classesWhen torment was introduced it was added to necro, mesmer and thief. It was never necro specific from the word go.

Alright. Thanks.

@Sigmoid.7082 said:

@KidRoleplay.3615 said:Initially it was Torment that was unique to necro, but then it spread around to other classesWhen torment was introduced it was added to necro, mesmer and thief. It was never necro specific from the word go.

You forgot warrior, on it's off-hand sword. Which at this time made warrior the best at torment (it was very strong at release on this classe). Half of the necromancer community was sour about torment that was sold as the necromancer's condition yet was spread to half the professions and the necromancer wasn't even the best at using it. The warrior was the only profession that could maintain 3-4 torment stacks ad nauseam with impale lasting 10 seconds and having a 15 second CD while the torment stack had a base duration of 12 seconds. The necromancer had to wait 2 years to see torment added to more skills than the original tainted shackles.

I have always thought Fear is their unique Condition and always should have been.

@Yasai.3549 said:I have always thought Fear is their unique Condition and always should have been.

Even if it was, it's still useless in PvE, besides a bit of breakbar damage. Except in the case of Terror but due to limited duration even then it's only worth ~2k damage per instance of Fear (Which have fairly limited availability anyway with long CD's and/or high costs) and that's more the Trait dealing the damage rather than the condition itself (When the trait also competes with Master of Corruption which is also a good PvE trait)

I don't really get why you think that the condition needs to stack to prevent diminishing effects for stacking necromancers, especially since (as you mentioned) a condition doesn't have a target cap like boons. If you apply it on a boss, everyone in your party gets the benefits of it.

And you are talking about other unique effects which make other classes desired in PvE, like banners, spotter/spirits, etc.None of these effects stack as well. So why exactly do you think that it is really necessary that necromancer's unique effect is not diminished by having more than 1 necromancer?

I can agree that spreading unique effects over classes would be great, tho.Some classes already have this benefit that ensures them at least 1 slot in high end PvE, it would be great if we could achieve the same for every class. Also some might have an unique buff, like engineer's pinpoint distribution, but they are not powerful enough to make them really desired.

@Kodama.6453 said:I don't really get why you think that the condition needs to stack to prevent diminishing effects for stacking necromancers, especially since (as you mentioned) a condition doesn't have a target cap like boons. If you apply it on a boss, everyone in your party gets the benefits of it.

And you are talking about other unique effects which make other classes desired in PvE, like banners, spotter/spirits, etc.None of these effects stack as well. So why exactly do you think that it is really necessary that necromancer's unique effect is not diminished by having more than 1 necromancer?

Because of the nature of conditions and the issues that arise when multiple sources of non-stacking conditions exist. I.e. The reason why old Deathly Chill was bad in PvE.

This is more important if the effects of the condition scale with a players stats. If they don't and it's something like my aforementioned Debilitated debuff then it'd be fine to have them not stack.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Kodama.6453 said:I don't really get why you think that the condition needs to stack to prevent diminishing effects for stacking necromancers, especially since (as you mentioned) a condition doesn't have a target cap like boons. If you apply it on a boss, everyone in your party gets the benefits of it.

And you are talking about other unique effects which make other classes desired in PvE, like banners, spotter/spirits, etc.None of these effects stack as well. So why exactly do you think that it is really necessary that necromancer's unique effect is not diminished by having more than 1 necromancer?

Debilitated sounds like the best idea in the arsenal you have provided in my opinion. It would play out as a simple damage modifier for a group, just like frost spirit is an unique damage modifier, since vulnerability is easily stacked by a group of 10 people.

Id suggest something like soul shackles. Stacks in Duration, the target takes damage for every condition it receives. The duration could be lowish, so the uptime would not be possible with a single necro. Damage based on either condition damage, or power, depending on the stats of the person causing the condition.

Or if you want a stronger condition along the lines of burn a condition that increases its tick damage, based on the duration the condition is active. Calculated on a "per stack" basis. So this would first of all be very scaling based on condition duration, as well as condition damage. It would only work reliably against pve monsters. In case of WvW and PvP it would add a layer of skill, given the ungodly amount of condi cleanses around.

Like ... Fear?

We have the unique condition ... I just needs to do something else/different in PVE.

I don't get the original proposition. It's opening complaint is that Necro's don't have much access (self?) to boons ... and somehow this leads to the suggestion we need a unique condition ... that we have. Not seeing how anything being presented is related, nor how it addresses any necro class issues.

if you want to solve the 'lack of boons' on necro problem, giving them a unique condition doesn't fix that.

@Obtena.7952 said:Like ... Fear?

We have the unique condition ... I just needs to do something else/different in PVE.

I don't get the original proposition. It's opening complaint is that Necro's don't have much access (self?) to boons ... and somehow this leads to the suggestion we need a unique condition ... that we have. Not seeing how anything being presented is related, nor how it addresses any necro class issues.

if you want to solve the 'lack of boons' on necro problem, giving them a unique condition doesn't fix that.

I think he means that necromancer's potential to support is very limited.

Necro got a support elite spec with scourge, yet it isn't as desired as other support specs like druid or firebrand.Why is that? Because these other supports offer more than just raw healing by either providing powerful boons (quickness for firebrand) or high stacks of might for the group as well as unique damage modifiers (druid with grace of the land and frost spirit).

Scourge on the other hand doesn't have something like this. Their might application is limited. What scourge mostly provides on top of the barrier/heals is boon corruption, which is not really that useful in PvE, since boons are fairly limited on enemies there.

An unique condition could solve this problem by providing additional supportive value which can not get achieved through another class. Like his example to increase the vulnerability cap. It would basically play out like druid's damage modifier by increasing the damage of your party, even more versatile since vulnerability increases both types of damage (power and condition damage).

I'd honestly settle for having a good bunch of conditions become effective against boss type creatures.

Movement impared conditions play a big role to some classes like Ranger for example which can use immob to shutdown an enemy and kite around it.. this goes completely out the window for champs and other big creatures becuase they're immune to the effects of it.Blind is another useless condition against them as is pretty much every condition that doesn't deal direct damage.

I'm fine with Breakbars acting like a big slab of stability, that's fine and actually a pretty good reason for hard CC to be useful in PvE.But being immune to the effects of other control conditions?.. nah that is straight up annoying and makes those conditions pretty useless..Classes that get a lot of access to those conditions also end up suffering for it as well.Take Ranger in PvE for example.. Strength of the Pack is pretty much the only decent or effective Elite skill Ranger has in PvE.Entangle is great against trash but useless against bosses where you'll actually want to use an elite skill.. and the Spirit is best use in group play for support.So we literally only have 1 decent elite skill in PvE.

Soft CC condies should work against bosses, I'm all for making that change andit would open doors for a lot of builds and playstyles in PvE which would only be a good thing for the game imo.

@Teratus.2859 said:I'd honestly settle for having a good bunch of conditions become effective against boss type creatures.

Movement impared conditions play a big role to some classes like Ranger for example which can use immob to shutdown an enemy and kite around it.. this goes completely out the window for champs and other big creatures becuase they're immune to the effects of it.Blind is another useless condition against them as is pretty much every condition that doesn't deal direct damage.

I'm fine with Breakbars acting like a big slab of stability, that's fine and actually a pretty good reason for hard CC to be useful in PvE.But being immune to the effects of other control conditions?.. nah that is straight up annoying and makes those conditions pretty useless..Classes that get a lot of access to those conditions also end up suffering for it as well.Take Ranger in PvE for example.. Strength of the Pack is pretty much the only decent or effective Elite skill Ranger has in PvE.Entangle is great against trash but useless against bosses where you'll actually want to use an elite skill.. and the Spirit is best use in group play for support.So we literally only have 1 decent elite skill in PvE.

Soft CC condies should work against bosses, I'm all for making that change andit would open doors for a lot of builds and playstyles in PvE which would only be a good thing for the game imo.

Unfortunately, most conditions nullified by defiance are nullified because they would trivialise the encounter. There is reason behind the immunity. Allowing those conditions to work on defiant foes would create more issues than it would correct.

@Obtena.7952 said:Like ... Fear?

We have the unique condition ... I just needs to do something else/different in PVE.

I don't get the original proposition. It's opening complaint is that Necro's don't have much access (self?) to boons ... and somehow this leads to the suggestion we need a unique condition ... that we have. Not seeing how anything being presented is related, nor how it addresses any necro class issues.

if you want to solve the 'lack of boons' on necro problem, giving them a unique condition doesn't fix that.

Says the person who likes to argue THEMES!

A theme for Necro, is they don't provide much in the way of helping their allies through applying boons. This limits their ability to effectively support, since support roles consist of classes that provide boons in some way with some also providing healing. Scourge provides Barrier instead of healing, but has lackluster boon application making it less desirable than say, Druid which provides plenty of Might (In addition to unique modifiers such as Frost Spirit) as well as healing or Alacrigade/Quickbrand which might not always spec for healing but will be providing the very powerful Alacrity/Quickness boons.

A condition, however, is in theme for Necro. Since a lot of their class is heavily designed around applying many debilitating conditions it's just that most of these conditions are totally useless in PvE since they have no or little effect. Ergo, if Necro could provide a condition that thus increases the effectiveness of their party, similar to the effects of other supports providing boons it would help them in PvE by increasing the effectiveness of their support, without being a conflicting theme in the way that just letting them access AoE boons might.

@Teratus.2859 said:Take Ranger in PvE for example.. Strength of the Pack is pretty much the only decent or effective Elite skill Ranger has in PvE.Entangle is great against trash but useless against bosses where you'll actually want to use an elite skill.. and the Spirit is best use in group play for support.

SotP is mostly only good because of its stability honestly, which helps Ranger deal with mechanics.

Entangle is decent for Condi builds though, since it's a pretty okay amount of AoE bleed even if the immobilize is useless.

One Wolf Pack is good for Power builds though.

@Teratus.2859 said:Soft CC condies should work against bosses, I'm all for making that change andit would open doors for a lot of builds and playstyles in PvE which would only be a good thing for the game imo.

The issue with this is, you'd open up the doors for X/Pistol Thief to be the best tank in the game because they'd just spam Black Powder and bosses wouldn't be able to hit anyone with any attacks.

Allowing for non-damaging condi's affect bosses was something I thought about as well, but it always came back to how easy it would be for Thief to just cheese almost every boss so hard in the same way they can cheese anything up to Elite to be essentially immune to damage because Blind spam.

@Obtena.7952 said:Like ... Fear?

We have the unique condition ... I just needs to do something else/different in PVE.

I don't get the original proposition. It's opening complaint is that Necro's don't have much access (self?) to boons ... and somehow this leads to the suggestion we need a unique condition ... that we have. Not seeing how anything being presented is related, nor how it addresses any necro class issues.

if you want to solve the 'lack of boons' on necro problem, giving them a unique condition doesn't fix that.

Fear is not unique. Warriors, thiefs also have access to it. Also technicly rangers via pets.

Which other profession has a unique boon or condition?

@Taril.8619 said:SotP is mostly only good because of its stability honestly, which helps Ranger deal with mechanics.

Entangle is decent for Condi builds though, since it's a pretty okay amount of AoE bleed even if the immobilize is useless.

One Wolf Pack is good for Power builds though.

Stab Fury and some might from pet yea, main reason I used it myself for so long.I guess Entangle could be useful for bleeds but Ranger can stack tons of that without it really.

I neglected the elite spec elite skills, personally i've never used any them myself.I do have a Druid and a SB but i've never used their spec elite skills so I can't really say much about them.

@Teratus.2859 said:Soft CC condies should work against bosses, I'm all for making that change andit would open doors for a lot of builds and playstyles in PvE which would only be a good thing for the game imo.

A lot of that could probably be fixed through limiting how often these conditions effects would work on a boss.Say Blind would only be effective once every 10-15 seconds or something.Chill, Immob and Cripple could work like normal but their durations would be cut or something so they would need constant appliance to maintain.

It would better than making these conditions useless against bosses.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Like ... Fear?

We have the unique condition ... I just needs to do something else/different in PVE.

I don't get the original proposition. It's opening complaint is that Necro's don't have much access (self?) to boons ... and somehow this leads to the suggestion we need a unique condition ... that we have. Not seeing how anything being presented is related, nor how it addresses any necro class issues.

if you want to solve the 'lack of boons' on necro problem, giving them a unique condition doesn't fix that.

Yeah I didn't say such a thing wasn't in theme so I guess you can argue with yourself there if you wish.

I'm saying that a unique condition doesn't solve the problem about boons or help for allies you are talking about.

The TLDR ... what are you trying to fix?

here is the problem with a unique features ... they tend to be things that get ignored ... re. Marks.

@Brujeria.7536 said:

@Obtena.7952 said:Like ... Fear?

We have the unique condition ... I just needs to do something else/different in PVE.

I don't get the original proposition. It's opening complaint is that Necro's don't have much access (self?) to boons ... and somehow this leads to the suggestion we need a unique condition ... that we have. Not seeing how anything being presented is related, nor how it addresses any necro class issues.

if you want to solve the 'lack of boons' on necro problem, giving them a unique condition doesn't fix that.

Fair enough ... I had forgotten that. I still don't see what imparting a unique condition on necro class will do to help it ... other than it's really cool to have a unique condition. I think it's actually a bad thing to get unique things .. because they don't get much attention. Look at Marks for example.

@Fueki.4753 said:Which other profession has a unique boon or condition?

Like I mentioned in my original post:

Rangers have Frost Spirit which provides 5% damage increase. They also have Spotter aura providing 100 Precision.Warrior's bring Banner of Strength for 100 Power + Condition damage and Banner of Discipline for 100 Precision and Ferocity. They can also use Empower Allies aura to provide further 100 Power.Chrono + Firebrand provide Quickness.Chrono + Renegade provide Alacrity.Renegade also provides Life Siphon in an area with Soulcleave's Summit.

@Teratus.2859 said:I guess Entangle could be useful for bleeds but Ranger can stack tons of that without it really.

More stacks is still more damage. Damage is useful in PvE.

I mean, unless you're suggesting that Ranger is able to reach the 2500 stack cap without Entangle...

@Teratus.2859 said:A lot of that could probably be fixed through limiting how often these conditions effects would work on a boss.Say Blind would only be effective once every 10-15 seconds or something.

Thus it'd be as worthless as it is now still. Especially given skills that have incidental blinds on them as well as Combo Field effects (For example, Blast Finishers in Dark Fields produce Blind. Chaos Aura from Blast/Leap Finishers in Ethereal Fields can produce Blinds when struck)

@Teratus.2859 said:Chill, Immob and Cripple could work like normal but their durations would be cut or something so they would need constant appliance to maintain.

Now you've just nerfed Reaper by reducing Chill uptime. Whilst still potentially allowing something like kiting of a boss via spammed Immobilize/Cripple. Not to mention stuff like mass Chrono for perma Slow (Whilst also nerfing Chrono in all other situations)

@Obtena.7952 said:I'm saying that a unique condition doesn't solve the problem about boons or help for allies you are talking about.

It literally can solve the problem. If you consider a condition that provides something that helps the team. You know, much like Vulnerability does now.

A unique condition that provides an extra 5% incoming damage to a target, would be effectively the same as Ranger's Frost Spirit providing 5% damage to everyone.

There can be other forms that a supportive condition can take, it merely needs to weaken a foe in some way (Or provide a bonus to people attacking the foe) and aid the party that's fighting the foe. Whilst also not being reliant on being a crowd control effect and thus useless against bosses.

For example, it can be a condition that when allies attack a target, something happens (Damage triggers, allies get a buff of some kind, allies get resources of some kind etc)It can be a condition that reduces the enemies defences (Increased damage taken, increased potential Vulnerability stacks etc)It can be a condition that amplifies the effect of allies damage (Such as converting a portion of incoming damage over its duration into a bonus tick of damage upon expiration effectively being a "Take increased damage" effect)

@Obtena.7952 said:The TLDR ... what are you trying to fix?

Necromancer's lack of PvE team support due to the utter uselessness of most non-damaging Conditions against targets with Defiance.

@Taril.8619 said:

@Fueki.4753 said:@Teratus.2859 said:I guess Entangle could be useful for bleeds but Ranger can stack tons of that without it really.

Nah, Extra bleeds are nice and all but the most use i've got out of the skill is from the immob, pretty much why power builds run it in WvW as well as condi.In PvE it can be a nice pair skill with the Longbow/Piercing Arrows too though that leaves you down a useful elite when you run into a boss creature.

@Teratus.2859 said:A lot of that could probably be fixed through limiting how often these conditions effects would work on a boss.Say Blind would only be effective once every 10-15 seconds or something.

Don't even get me started on how badly combos need some work XDI run a Sword/Warhorn set on my main Ranger build for two reasons.

1. Sword 2 combos with Electric Wyverns Electric Field for a hard CC, I need this because my main skills and traits lack a lot of CC utility so I have to rely on this combo for it.
2. Sword 2 and Warhorn 5 combo with Healing Skill's Water field for some extra healing.

I've gotten a lot of use out of those two combos when fighting champs and stuff solo.But often when other players are "helping" out they tend to screw these combos up quite a lot.Just today in fact I was about to finish off a champs CC bar and stun him and the Necro I was fighting along side goes and puts a Dark field right on top of my Wyvers Electric one.. my hard CC becomes a Dark Aura instead and the break bar I would have broken refills instead because of it.

It sucks to say it but because of situations like that.. which happen fairly often due to how Combo fields work, I find that i'm just better off playing alone than having other players help me with stuff.I really wish there was some way to make this mechanic more practical to use when other players are about.

@Teratus.2859 said:Chill, Immob and Cripple could work like normal but their durations would be cut or something so they would need constant appliance to maintain.

Nah Reaper can put out a ton of chill and in any group situation that will be easy to maintain permanently.It'll at best be a small benefit to solo play since it will give Necros some mobility advantage over the thing they are fighting, one area where Necro's are practically garbage in.

This is the kind of thing im talking about though.. Chill is a pretty big feature of the Reaper spec.. yet it's primary function as a movement imparing condition is completely useless against anything with a breakbar.. and for the most part useless against most things without them due to how easily they just die anyway.In the latters case you don't really even get to make use of the extra damage against chilled foes either because of that.

Perhaps stacks would be a better alternative for some of these mechanics rather than duration.Wouldn't change anything for trash mobs but it could work for bosses if they suffered a movement imparing effect every time X condition hit X amount of stacks.Could even give them a little immunity phase for each condition too so they couldn't be spam locked by the same condition.That's probably a better solution.