Next Balance Patch: Skills Vs State of Downstate

Now that we are out of another No Downstate event wanted to see where people left the week at. Should the next balance patch be about under and over performing skills that most people would define as a standard balance update, or one where downstate is addressed. For this poll by addressed the question is are skills (outside of downstate) currently better balanced than the state of downstate in its mechanics and skills. Does the forum see one more imbalanced than the other currently? For this poll let's assume balance teams and alliances are separate resources, hence there is no other included. Please include removal votes under the downstate adjusted group. Thanks for your time. Good gaming!

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:For this poll let's assume balance teams and alliances are separate resources, hence there is no other included.Poll fails, there are no such resources for WvW.

Personally I think the boon+heal sustain is way more egregious than downed state. If you enter a 3v4 fight it's not downed state that's gonna beat you when they outnumber you, it's their extra minstrel firebrand or minstrel scrapper. If you call this "normal" skills, well then normal it is.

@Dawdler.8521 said:Poll fails, there are no such resources for WvW.

I am contractually required by the universe to try and think (falsely) positive thoughts at least one time a day. That and because June Carter Cash sang to do so as well. Oh and I owe you a tip of the hat. I stole your tag line at reset last night when a guild mate said let the cute Asuran go, I told them no they have shark teeth, kill it.

@TheGrimm.5624 said:Now that we are out of another No Downstate event wanted to see where people left the week at. Should the next balance patch be about under and over performing skills that most people would define as a standard balance update, or one where downstate is addressed. For this poll by addressed the question is are skills (outside of downstate) currently better balanced than the state of downstate in its mechanics and skills. Does the forum see one more imbalanced than the other currently? For this poll let's assume balance teams and alliances are separate resources, hence there is no other included. Please include removal votes under the downstate adjusted group. Thanks for your time. Good gaming!

These kind of posts are just so ignorant.At launch and for a large span of the game's life, downstate worked fine. It wasn't until the insta rezz builds came to prominence that we started getting these polls.What does that tell you?

There should be a both option as that would and should be the goal.

@MidJuly.1839 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:Now that we are out of another No Downstate event wanted to see where people left the week at. Should the next balance patch be about under and over performing skills that most people would define as a standard balance update, or one where downstate is addressed. For this poll by addressed the question is are skills (outside of downstate) currently better balanced than the state of downstate in its mechanics and skills. Does the forum see one more imbalanced than the other currently? For this poll let's assume balance teams and alliances are separate resources, hence there is no other included. Please include removal votes under the downstate adjusted group. Thanks for your time. Good gaming!

That the game has always favored zergs and its been wrong since launch.

Non of the above

Make WvW like PvP - Everyone goes in fully level 80 maintaining only the "Fashion"/Skin

Gee, it's almost like it's not downstate that is the problem, but the endless chain of boons and the balance of that, funny that.

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:Now that we are out of another No Downstate event wanted to see where people left the week at. Should the next balance patch be about under and over performing skills that most people would define as a standard balance update, or one where downstate is addressed. For this poll by addressed the question is are skills (outside of downstate) currently better balanced than the state of downstate in its mechanics and skills. Does the forum see one more imbalanced than the other currently? For this poll let's assume balance teams and alliances are separate resources, hence there is no other included. Please include removal votes under the downstate adjusted group. Thanks for your time. Good gaming!

Again, not true. Roamers such as myself have always been able to fill in a niche role, roaming in groups of 5+ is another new trend... obviously promoted by recent balance patches. So NO, Zerging was definitely not ALWAYS the way. We used to havoc and party roam, the difference being everyone and their mother knew what size party does what, at their respective timezone.Nowadays you have people rolling with 10 people going for SMC. Sorry guys, the 12 guys randomly capping a vista for their exploration crusade will hop in on defending with the 2-3 scouts. What would the outcome be?

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:For this poll let's assume balance teams and alliances are separate resources, hence there is no other included.Poll fails, there are no such resources for WvW.

Removing/revamping minstrels would almost immediately fix this issue. Firebrand and scrapper aren't an issue in SPvP because minstrels amulet doesn't exist. The issue is the gear, not the classes or skills, so a balance patch literally can't fix this issue.Just offer a free all stat selection on any minstrel gear after doing so.

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:For this poll let's assume balance teams and alliances are separate resources, hence there is no other included.Poll fails, there are no such resources for WvW.

The game was in a far better state when we didn't have clearly defined healer builds. I mean Cleric was about as healery as you could get.

@MidJuly.1839 said:

@Shiyo.3578 said:

@Dawdler.8521 said:

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:For this poll let's assume balance teams and alliances are separate resources, hence there is no other included.Poll fails, there are no such resources for WvW.

Agreed, for PvP AND PvE. I can get carried through nearly every fractal mechanic by a good healer, and a scourge can heal through every single strike mechanic. SPvP had to hard nerf healers and remove nearly every single healer amulet just to make it fun to fight healers, and healer is by far the worst and least satisfying role to play in SPvP.

WvW just needs to fix stat combinations like minstrels and this "boon ball" meta will go away.

@MidJuly.1839 said:These kind of posts are just so ignorant.At launch and for a large span of the game's life, downstate worked fine. It wasn't until the insta rezz builds came to prominence that we started getting these polls.What does that tell you?

it was never fine. players got juts accostumed to it. the day the first no downstate was out the hard truth came out, downstate is so terribly unblalanced that removing it makes the game more fun and challenging to play.

how was insta reviving 5 downed upon killing an enemy downed fine? it made the first group to get a kill usually winning the engagement. still kinda is today.but no downstate fixed that problem.at least rally bot should exist just like 5 people on a downed. one is enough if he has a specialised or skill build for it.but there was one significant thing that made downed less of a problem in roaming before, celerity. which greatly increased finish speed.outnumbered was still an issue but there was a few super combo you could do with elem staff and icebow + thief venom to wipe out way bigger bus. you can't do that anymore.we got an overall damage nerf of 33%, CC doesn't hit hard anymore, celerity can't speed up finishers anymore, even more AOE spam for all class (but scourge AOE got a number of target hit reduction, lol) while elem got severly nerfed, especially staff and ice bow AOE damage (HA!).so now bunker is shining even more than before especially with all the boon psam we can do, thus creating the boonball.(which was harder to do before HOT and incredibly easy to do after HOT with the boonshare mesmer that got nerfed years after. but then firebrand came up.)

I mean this is a Sophie's choice scenario. On one hand downstate is abysmal the way it is and a huge crutch given toward people that blob.

But then again

@"Dawdler.8521" said:If you enter a 3v4 fight it's not downed state that's gonna beat you when they outnumber you, it's their extra minstrel firebrand or minstrel scrapper. If you call this "normal" skills, well then normal it is.

This is also true.

Bit of an impossible choice.

@MidJuly.1839 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:Now that we are out of another No Downstate event wanted to see where people left the week at. Should the next balance patch be about under and over performing skills that most people would define as a standard balance update, or one where downstate is addressed. For this poll by addressed the question is are skills (outside of downstate) currently better balanced than the state of downstate in its mechanics and skills. Does the forum see one more imbalanced than the other currently? For this poll let's assume balance teams and alliances are separate resources, hence there is no other included. Please include removal votes under the downstate adjusted group. Thanks for your time. Good gaming!

I don't understand your used to part. We roamed and havoc'd before and still do. There is still places it for it. This is about the fact that numbers always defined it and still do. Armor sets aren't even the issue. Its that just numbers matter. And if we are that far along in the balancing I would question is the time better spent addressing the numbers game more than the skills balance. We have glaring issues of numbers, do we have glaring issues with builds? Where is the issue where one build dominates all others?

@"TheGrimm.5624" said:We have glaring issues of numbers, do we have glaring issues with builds?Look, it's real simple, imagine the following scenarios:

5 roamers vs 10 other roamersRandom classes of damage specs, whatever it doesnt matter. Even skill doesnt matter. Regardless, if those 5 are well organized, if they can get the drop on the enemy and down people before they even have time to react, if they can sustain through stomps, pull out glassy targets etc, use the terrain/potential objective they can in theory win the fight. It aint gonna be easy but hey that's what fighting is about.

5 roamers vs 10 other roamers and 5 of them are full minstrel firebrandsJust... imagine how the fight would be compared to above. And then tell me naaaah, it'll be fine.

It's never only about the "numbers game".

roamers on minstrel FBs lmfao okay

thats always these tr**** roamerguildgroups that carry half sustain, maybe. ain't normal roaming, i dislike the term "roamergroup" even since roamers should rather go alone or max in very small numbers. 10 is like a outnumbered map population, usually only 2-3 ppl check a camp, even if it has like 20 ppl doing stuff on it. so how the hell is 10 ppl not much? or even really roaming?

@ topicwell... the skill balance is crap anyways, and likely won't change. the devs understand the format not enough i think, especially not the meta. so how on earth would they balance the skills? that is like if u ask a blind person which colours they like best, a bit non-appropriate.

no downstate can stay imo, since it makes game faster. BUT roamerspecs need hard nerfs, the cheap burst trash out of stealth has to get removed for it to make sense, otherwise it would be the formats tomb on the long hand.

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:Now that we are out of another No Downstate event wanted to see where people left the week at. Should the next balance patch be about under and over performing skills that most people would define as a standard balance update, or one where downstate is addressed. For this poll by addressed the question is are skills (outside of downstate) currently better balanced than the state of downstate in its mechanics and skills. Does the forum see one more imbalanced than the other currently? For this poll let's assume balance teams and alliances are separate resources, hence there is no other included. Please include removal votes under the downstate adjusted group. Thanks for your time. Good gaming!

We've never roamed together, That's my premise. If you roamed with me and my guildies, you'd know the picture is not nearly as black and white as you paint it. It's really more of fifty shades of debauchery.With that being said, you sound like someone that, just never had a proper team to back him up. That's really not on anyone but yourself. This is not a solo game, WvW much less so. Get a teammate.

deleted /15chars

@MidJuly.1839 said:

We've never roamed together, That's my premise. If you roamed with me and my guildies, you'd know the picture is not nearly as black and white as you paint it. It's really more of fifty shades of debauchery.With that being said, you sound like someone that, just never had a proper team to back him up. That's really not on anyone but yourself. This is not a solo game, WvW much less so. Get a teammate.

I am keeping it kind of one way or another since its a poll and I was curious if people still believe we have a lot of glaring balance issues or if, after just coming out of a NDS week its more mechanics that people could see adjusting. I don't think you have seen me say roaming or havocing was not viable. Personally, I didn't think we needed the big nerf patch. I think that was more a glass vs glass issue but your mileage will vary. I also think the nerf patch was preping for the next round of elites. I am not sure the NDS changed the dynamic of a 5v10 as much but you could see more differences in the 5 v 30/40/50. Now some people encountered more run away during the event, but what I was seeing was more, go for it! while the mechanic was changed. So which encourages more fights? If there is nothing to gain (fun/loot/reduced numbers/rewards) for just dropping a target, does that encourage more players to try and take on more or does it just discourage people from doing so?

Its also more I have played WvW for 5-6 years now and after coming from another game that I 'wvwed' in for 5+years there I have something to compare and contrast to. I roam, I havoc, will warband, and I will zerg surf at times to get a mix. To me it seems that there is an imbalance in the numbers game here. In other games smaller forces had more options to slow or turn the fight. You will have builds that counter other builds, you will have groups that run as tight teams that will out perform larger groups. There is no balancing against organised versus pug. But in general when you remove armor, builds, people on comms or not, the numbers game does it if downed are not converted to defeated and then at times even if you do get the conversion it won't matter if the larger side can just power rez their numbers back into play. I am not saying I favor removal, but the mechanics could use some changes.

I am not saying balancing is done or if we are just tuning, but if the idea was to tone down and balance back up, if that was still the plan than why are we still cutting. If that's the case we aren't even at the time to up the under-performers than let's spend some time on the downstate balance. Some of the class balance issues might be addressed when downstate is adjusted without needing other changes. Take latency, when the NDS caused the fights to spread latency in fights was much better, so is that a map population issue or the fact of boon ball meta? Sometimes the balancing is done when its really some other issue than the one that's addressed.

So, drop in a vote for curiosities sake.

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Gee, it's almost like it's not downstate that is the problem, but the endless chain of boons and the balance of that, funny that.

Oh don't get me wrong, not a fan of the boon ball either, I didn't get the point of reducing the boon conversion and rips since we had wayyyyyyyy to many boons. If you took this as a point to that, please don't. No if anything you will see posts from me that I am not a fan of stack meta and would prefer collision with all that comes with that. That alone would address some of the boon ball issues since you would be more limited in application.

Edit: plus I liked the strategic play that collision grants, being out of position with collision has a much higher price tag when you can't just run thru your side out of the line of fire.

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Gee, it's almost like it's not downstate that is the problem, but the endless chain of boons and the balance of that, funny that.

Funny thing that. Collision. They had it in GW1, but admittedly despite not having a real z-axis (real jumping not a /jump emote) for movement it tended to cause rubber-banding on the client side of things.

D:

@kamikharzeeh.8016 said:roamers on minstrel FBs lmfao okayThats the point but apparently went totally over your head.

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@MidJuly.1839 said:

We've never roamed together, That's my premise. If you roamed with me and my guildies, you'd know the picture is not nearly as black and white as you paint it. It's really more of fifty shades of debauchery.With that being said, you sound like someone that, just never had a proper team to back him up. That's really not on anyone but yourself. This is not a solo game, WvW much less so. Get a teammate.

Ok. I respect that.

@GDchiaScrub.3241 said:

@TheGrimm.5624 said:

@Kylden Ar.3724 said:Gee, it's almost like it's not downstate that is the problem, but the endless chain of boons and the balance of that, funny that.

Faults in the engine are items of concern, but...its not something for players, that's why we have devs either writing or choosing engines. Warhammer Online had just as many if not more players per side and with collision ran fine, and I had a bad connection at the time. Collision detection added more tactics and resulted in more skillful gameplay since it required you to consider positioning and made you think about where you were and how you wanted to impact the otherside. Do you block the other side to slow them, do you hold a line. Do you attack to slow an advance and allow your side to regroup. Do you thin them out for the counter attack. So yes, have seen collision work even while on crappy connections. This isn't re-inventing the wheel, we had these options 12-15 years ago. Have servers /PCs gotten slower, have connections to the internet? Personally I don't think so. Always happy that GW 2 can run on such a thin band width and most people wouldn't expect but GW2 does a really good job on how well it plays on thin connections. I can say this since half the times I play its on thin connections and the other on much better ones as I travel.