Follow Up to my Original Post, "The Death of Thief" - Page 4 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
Home PVP

Follow Up to my Original Post, "The Death of Thief"

124

Comments

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

    No. Only that it isnt the highest horizontal mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

    It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

    Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will never catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

    Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

    Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
    Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
    Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

    Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills over time. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere close to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you severely underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

    But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for 1200 range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

    I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

    Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

    Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

    Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

    No. Only that it isnt the highest horizontal mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

    It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

    Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will never catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

    Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

    Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
    Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
    Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

    Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills over time. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere close to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you severely underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

    But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for 1200 range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

    I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

    Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

    Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

    I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even before the time factor comes in.

    Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

    No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

    No. Only that it isnt the highest horizontal mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

    It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

    Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will never catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

    Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

    Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
    Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
    Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

    Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills over time. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere close to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you severely underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

    But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for 1200 range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

    I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

    Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

    Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

    I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even before the time factor comes in.

    Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

    No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

    I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

    No. Only that it isnt the highest horizontal mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

    It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

    Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will never catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

    Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

    Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
    Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
    Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

    Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills over time. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere close to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you severely underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

    But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for 1200 range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

    I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

    Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

    Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

    I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even before the time factor comes in.

    Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

    No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

    I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

    To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

  • I would like to see better usage of "preperations" they changed. ever since this trapper runes still abused by guardians and are just as "toxic" as the thieves previously abusing them. With the addition to towers with REVEALED pulsing everywhere i dont understand why we cant have it at LEAST considered as a trap and not preparation now. Take a look at line of warding, it its better as far as functionality vs Seal Area, it needs to be adjusted ( seal area ). The other elite spec, Deadeye, feels useless with the last balance patch and the rest feel gutted. Sure if it were based on an opportunity type of thief you can backstab gank someone ALREADY low, but as it stands we need sustained damage to do anything in 1v1 on points. we NEED more build diversity

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

    No. Only that it isnt the highest horizontal mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

    It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

    Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will never catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

    Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

    Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
    Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
    Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

    Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills over time. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere close to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you severely underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

    But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for 1200 range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

    I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

    Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

    Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

    I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even before the time factor comes in.

    Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

    No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

    I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

    To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

    You mean like this?

    Seems like this is unique to heartseeker. Even on flat terrain 2x Heartseekers doesn't cover the same distance as 1x Infiltrator's Arrow. Or rather, the strike distance is including on the listed "range" of the skill, which is a bit farther than the movement the skill actually provides to the player.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    If a thief wants to use the regular dodge for 300 units over 0.75 seconds he is welcomed to do that ,
    He will travel 2700 yards with 9 times
    If he wants to do dash 450 yard for 0,75 he can do that also .
    He will travel 4050 yards with 9 times

    willing to buy 4x (3+2) acounts and put them in a low pop WvWvW server in EU+ Murica for a race match .

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

    No. Only that it isnt the highest horizontal mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

    It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

    Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will never catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

    Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

    Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
    Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
    Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

    Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills over time. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere close to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you severely underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

    But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for 1200 range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

    I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

    Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

    Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

    I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even before the time factor comes in.

    Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

    No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

    I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

    To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

    You mean like this?

    Seems like this is unique to heartseeker. Even on flat terrain 2x Heartseekers doesn't cover the same distance as 1x Infiltrator's Arrow. Or rather, the strike distance is including on the listed "range" of the skill, which is a bit farther than the movement the skill actually provides to the player.

    Thats odd, because I also made a taste on flat ground to compare, and in Lions arch it covered the same distance perfectly. It might be something about that part of Divinities reach then? Though for the record, I also did the same test with Blink and Mirage Thrust, and it also fell short.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 15, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

    No. Only that it isnt the highest horizontal mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

    It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

    Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will never catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

    Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

    Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
    Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
    Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

    Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills over time. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere close to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you severely underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

    But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for 1200 range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

    I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

    Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

    Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

    I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even before the time factor comes in.

    Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

    No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

    I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

    To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

    Also I tested this on my mesmer with Blink and my warrior with Rush. Both "1200 range" skills.




    The warrior doesn't travel as far because part of Rush's range is included in the attack, while Blink is just a ground targeted directional ability, so it's "range" is 100% accurate in regards to distance traveled. The loss on account of attack range is doubly pronounced using Heart Seeker because you're accounting the attack range twice.

    Basically the type of kitten you see "Fixed a tool tip" for.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • mortrialus.3062mortrialus.3062 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

    No. Only that it isnt the highest horizontal mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

    It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

    Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will never catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

    Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

    Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
    Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
    Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

    Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills over time. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere close to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you severely underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

    But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for 1200 range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

    I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

    Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

    Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

    I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even before the time factor comes in.

    Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

    No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

    I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

    To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

    You mean like this?

    Seems like this is unique to heartseeker. Even on flat terrain 2x Heartseekers doesn't cover the same distance as 1x Infiltrator's Arrow. Or rather, the strike distance is including on the listed "range" of the skill, which is a bit farther than the movement the skill actually provides to the player.

    Thats odd, because I also made a taste on flat ground to compare, and in Lions arch it covered the same distance perfectly. It might be something about that part of Divinities reach then? Though for the record, I also did the same test with Blink and Mirage Thrust, and it also fell short.

    I actually tried Mirage Thrust in this location and 2x Mirage Thrust actually travels a bit farther than Blink.

    So this seems like something more pronounced and unique with thief and heartseeker than any sort of inclines negatively impacting dashes.

    Best Dressed Memser NA.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

    No. Only that it isnt the highest horizontal mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

    It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

    Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will never catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

    Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

    Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
    Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
    Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

    Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills over time. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere close to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you severely underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

    But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for 1200 range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

    I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

    Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

    Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

    I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even before the time factor comes in.

    Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

    No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

    I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

    To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

    Also I tested this on my mesmer with Blink and my warrior with Rush. Both "1200 range" skills.




    The warrior doesn't travel as far because part of Rush's range is included in the attack, while Blink is just a ground targeted directional ability, so it's "range" is 100% accurate in regards to distance traveled. The loss on account of attack range is doubly pronounced using Heart Seeker because you're accounting the attack range twice.

    Basically the type of kitten you see "Fixed a tool tip" for.

    Again, that doesnt explain why, when I tried that in Lions Arch, it did actually move exactly 900 units on flat ground.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @mortrialus.3062 said:
    Holy kitten are people actually trying to argue thief ISN'T the highest mobility in the game?

    No. Only that it isnt the highest horizontal mobility. Doesnt matter outside of WvW, but its a fact.

    It's unambiguously the fastest, even without vertical porting short cuts. The level of bias to even think thief is slow compared to warrior and ranger is to a degree of outright derangement.

    Its not, and if you played WvW at all you would know that. Thief can escape from everyone (because you can quickly port out of combat and mount up), but a thief will never catch a warrior or a ranger in a flat plane in WvW. Because when their dashes can actually go the full distance without such annoying things as inclines shortening their effective mobility, well then ranger and warrior just move more in less time.

    Even when you crunch the numbers on the movement skills it doesn't add up.

    Warrior movement from skills over one minute; 16,550
    Soulbeast Movement from skills over one minute: 12,600
    Daredevil movement from skills over one minute: 19,650

    Lets address a few things all at once here. First, movement from skills isnt as important as movement from skills over time. Second, there is no way Daredevil got anywhere close to 19650. Off of shortbow 5 alone, thats 2 at the start, and one every 6 seconds. So, 12. 10800 from that. Then you add 2 shadowsteps, which is 2400. And then ... youre running dry. Even if you add perfect about face roll for initiative, thats 1800 +1160. Even using both of those (which no one does anymore) youre 3000 short. On the other hand, you severely underestimated Rangers movement. Just from Swoop + Gazelles charge + bird swoop alone, Ranger gets 1200 every 12 seconds, and then 1200 every 9 seconds (you alternate the 2). In a minute, that amounts to 6 swoops and 7 pets charges. Thats 15600, not 12600. And if we maximise movement like you did with thief, we get to add monarchs leap and lightning Zephyr.

    But we dont need to. See more important than just the raw values, is how much time it took to travel that. And thats where Ranger pulls ahead. Infiltrators arrow takes 1 second to travel, for 900 units. Swoop and the pet dashes take 1 second to travel for 1200 range. Every time ranger moves 33% more during that bit. And well, I think you can see how they pull ahead now.

    I was able to do a variation Foefire lap test in 48 seconds with Daredevil+Shadow Arts+Shadow Step+Roll For Initiative. Warrior I got it down to 57 seconds, and that was taking Greatsword, Warrior's Sprint, Bulls Charge in addition to using plus using Sword Balanced Stance and Featherfoot Grace for even more movement speed. And the terrain doesn't especially favor thief. Soulbeast I got down to 55 seconds and that's with Sword+Warhorn+Greatsword+Deer Charge and enough nonmeta utilities to give 100% Swiftness uptime. If you aren't careful inclines will screw over your Infiltator's Arrows. And as long as your latency is fine slopes and inclines don't hamper dashing movement, it's actually pretty fair to do a lap around Foefire for testing purposes.

    Yeah turns out if you use a vertical map the class that has a vertical advantage has ... an advantage. No duh. The terrain heavily favours thief. Inclines of any kind reduce the effectiveness of a dash. They do not reduce the effectiveness of infiltrators arrow. We saw this beautifully illustrated in Trevors shoddy attempt, where multiple dashes moved half the distance or less thanks to an incline. What fair is a perfectly flat stretch the likes of which you only find in WvW. So try it out in WvW.

    Daredevil dodge dash is a 450 movement skill, not even counting permanent swiftness it provides.

    I figured youd do that, but here is the issue. If you include the enhanced dodges, I include the regular dodges. That only closes the gap by 150 each time. Thats a total of, what, 1350? Youre still a few thousand behind, even before the time factor comes in.

    Trevor's dashes failed not because of inclines, but because of clear latency issues causing that sort of positioning lag most prominent using physical movement skills. My attempts had 0 issue with any dash type skill not fully providing it's entire movement with 50ms.

    No, its because inclines mess with dashes. What latency might have explained is the time he got completely stuck, but that wasnt an incline.

    I genuinely do not know what you are talking about with "inclines mess with dashes". You use a 1200 unit dash skill you go 1200 units. I only notice skills acting peculiarly when latency becomes an issue at which point movement skills sometimes fail regardless of the shape of terrain.

    To give an example, I went to Lions Arch. You know the central glass thing next to the bank? Take the ramp towards the bank. If I use infiltrators arrow down at max range (900) and use double heartseeker back up (900), I end up at least 50 units short of where I started. And every time, too. Thats what it means.

    You mean like this?

    Seems like this is unique to heartseeker. Even on flat terrain 2x Heartseekers doesn't cover the same distance as 1x Infiltrator's Arrow. Or rather, the strike distance is including on the listed "range" of the skill, which is a bit farther than the movement the skill actually provides to the player.

    Thats odd, because I also made a taste on flat ground to compare, and in Lions arch it covered the same distance perfectly. It might be something about that part of Divinities reach then? Though for the record, I also did the same test with Blink and Mirage Thrust, and it also fell short.

    I actually tried Mirage Thrust in this location and 2x Mirage Thrust actually travels a bit farther than Blink.

    So this seems like something more pronounced and unique with thief and heartseeker than any sort of inclines negatively impacting dashes.

    Im thinking its more that spot being wonky. But Id have to look into it more.

  • darren.1064darren.1064 Member ✭✭✭

    The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

  • Bazsi.2734Bazsi.2734 Member ✭✭✭

    @darren.1064 said:
    The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

    The debate about thief mobility is kind of pointless. In the context of conquest, the meta thief build is the most mobile build there is period.

    And having this mobility is the reason of it not having anything else. The +1-s and decaps already make the class mandatory in any organised team. It can only fill one predetermined role, but it's very good at it. So thief is anything but dead, you just don't get to actually fight with it. If fighting is your thing, you have 8 other classes to chose from. As a thief you play catch and bully people.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Bazsi.2734 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

    The debate about thief mobility is kind of pointless. In the context of conquest, the meta thief build is the most mobile build there is period.

    And having this mobility is the reason of it not having anything else. The +1-s and decaps already make the class mandatory in any organised team. It can only fill one predetermined role, but it's very good at it. So thief is anything but dead, you just don't get to actually fight with it. If fighting is your thing, you have 8 other classes to chose from. As a thief you play catch and bully people.

    Basically, yeah. Which does however mean that new elite specs have a major hurdle to jump through, and pretty kitten limited design. Even ignoring Deadeyes flaws (of which it has many), the fact that its designed to be used for prolonged fighting meant it never had a chance in sPvP.

  • Hahaha. i accept defeat.

  • Highlie.7641Highlie.7641 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Wow weird arguement. Thief is faster than ranger on any plane. Ranger does have great mobility, as it should but it doesn't match thief's which it shouldn't for a variety of reasons which should be obvious to most players.Sure wars and rangers can keep up to thief for a distance but thief would pull a head over time 100%. Rogue like are usually the highest mobility archetype in mmo's and gw2 is no different.

    You know this test was already done at launch right? over long distances warrior is faster then thief then ranger. over short distances ie the spvp maps thief is faster. properly use your abilities and you will probably see the same results. What People fail to understand is both warriors and rangers have defensives ontop of there mobility while thief does not. making there kitten mobility arguement useless. which is what there really debating.

  • @darren.1064 said:
    The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

    It's not really a debate.

    There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    War and rang definitely can keep up to teef over a short distance but as the chase goes on thief will definitely pull a head, except DE, rang and war may beat out a DE but definitely not core or DD. Rang specifically doesn't need to keep up to a thief, just needs to stay in lb range lol course once uve swapt to lb ur mobility isnt great. Both warrior and ranger have great mobility considering their kits but definitely not in par with teef nor should they be. Is this discussion really worth the pages? Lol

  • KrHome.1920KrHome.1920 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    In the context of conquest, the meta thief build is the most mobile build there is period.

    Not only in this context. ANet should allow build changes in PvP for one week. The roamers in WvW are used to it, but the PvP folks should see this too:

    Dash speed rune daredevil can reset any fight within seconds, change its build template, continue the fight, reset, change its build, continue the fight ... I've fought daredevils that changed their build 3 or more times in one single fight. That was incredible. I mean you need a bit of skill to do this as it requires some good timing, but it simply shouldn't be possible at all.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

    It's not really a debate.

    Correct, because this is an old well known fact in WvW.

    There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

    This however is wrong. Ask any avid WvW player and they tell you the same thing. You also didnt explain to my why it isnt true (on the other hand I did explain to you why it is true), and the only video made was by you, with methodology so unbelievably shoddy that I was able to save 10 seconds without even trying much, and a gap that was pretty close despite a vertical map. Now if Im not mistaken, I believe you found a flat stretch in PvE that you wanted to test it on. Yet we have not seen the result. Care to explain why?

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

    It's not really a debate.

    Correct, because this is an old well known fact in WvW.

    There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

    This however is wrong. Ask any avid WvW player and they tell you the same thing. You also didnt explain to my why it isnt true (on the other hand I did explain to you why it is true), and the only video made was by you, with methodology so unbelievably shoddy that I was able to save 10 seconds without even trying much, and a gap that was pretty close despite a vertical map. Now if Im not mistaken, I believe you found a flat stretch in PvE that you wanted to test it on. Yet we have not seen the result. Care to explain why?

    Nope sorry , he explained to you with videos and words , that's he is right
    As i said , i willing to buy 2 accounts and put you in low pop WvWvW server to prove him wrong in a race , but you alway back away , finding an excuse
    You could in reallity show him , how to '' save 10 seconds without even trying much''

    All talk , no action:)

    https://i.ytimg.com/vi/IpNgah-e6v4/hqdefault.jpg

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

    It's not really a debate.

    Correct, because this is an old well known fact in WvW.

    There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

    This however is wrong. Ask any avid WvW player and they tell you the same thing. You also didnt explain to my why it isnt true (on the other hand I did explain to you why it is true), and the only video made was by you, with methodology so unbelievably shoddy that I was able to save 10 seconds without even trying much, and a gap that was pretty close despite a vertical map. Now if Im not mistaken, I believe you found a flat stretch in PvE that you wanted to test it on. Yet we have not seen the result. Care to explain why?

    Nope sorry , he explained to you with videos and words , that's he is right
    As i said , i willing to buy 2 accounts and put you in low pop WvWvW server to prove him wrong in a race , but you alway back away , finding an excuse

    I figured after everyone told you youre wrong, you wouldve given up on trolling, but kitten. He didnt explain anything other than the very first time. Which was with a lot of errors that I fixed, and once I fixed them, turns out his math proved that Ranger and Warrior were faster. He never answered afterwards. And the one video he provided is of course shoddy and also worthless. And buying accounts is against the ToS. Im not gonna get banned because some troll thinks its an argument.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

    It's not really a debate.

    Correct, because this is an old well known fact in WvW.

    There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

    This however is wrong. Ask any avid WvW player and they tell you the same thing. You also didnt explain to my why it isnt true (on the other hand I did explain to you why it is true), and the only video made was by you, with methodology so unbelievably shoddy that I was able to save 10 seconds without even trying much, and a gap that was pretty close despite a vertical map. Now if Im not mistaken, I believe you found a flat stretch in PvE that you wanted to test it on. Yet we have not seen the result. Care to explain why?

    Nope sorry , he explained to you with videos and words , that's he is right
    As i said , i willing to buy 2 accounts and put you in low pop WvWvW server to prove him wrong in a race , but you alway back away , finding an excuse

    I figured after everyone told you youre wrong, you wouldve given up on trolling, but kitten. He didnt explain anything other than the very first time. Which was with a lot of errors that I fixed, and once I fixed them, turns out his math proved that Ranger and Warrior were faster. He never answered afterwards. And the one video he provided is of course shoddy and also worthless. And buying accounts is against the ToS. Im not gonna get banned because some troll thinks its an argument.

    Show in action how to save 10 sec
    Have a duel

    If you win , i will give you the account for free :)

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

    It's not really a debate.

    Correct, because this is an old well known fact in WvW.

    There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

    This however is wrong. Ask any avid WvW player and they tell you the same thing. You also didnt explain to my why it isnt true (on the other hand I did explain to you why it is true), and the only video made was by you, with methodology so unbelievably shoddy that I was able to save 10 seconds without even trying much, and a gap that was pretty close despite a vertical map. Now if Im not mistaken, I believe you found a flat stretch in PvE that you wanted to test it on. Yet we have not seen the result. Care to explain why?

    Nope sorry , he explained to you with videos and words , that's he is right
    As i said , i willing to buy 2 accounts and put you in low pop WvWvW server to prove him wrong in a race , but you alway back away , finding an excuse

    I figured after everyone told you youre wrong, you wouldve given up on trolling, but kitten. He didnt explain anything other than the very first time. Which was with a lot of errors that I fixed, and once I fixed them, turns out his math proved that Ranger and Warrior were faster. He never answered afterwards. And the one video he provided is of course shoddy and also worthless. And buying accounts is against the ToS. Im not gonna get banned because some troll thinks its an argument.

    Show in action how to save 10 sec

    I already explained how to save 10 seconds. It was trivial. Now stop trolling.

  • Naqam a.6521Naqam a.6521 Member ✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

    It's not really a debate.

    Correct, because this is an old well known fact in WvW.

    There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

    This however is wrong. Ask any avid WvW player and they tell you the same thing. You also didnt explain to my why it isnt true (on the other hand I did explain to you why it is true), and the only video made was by you, with methodology so unbelievably shoddy that I was able to save 10 seconds without even trying much, and a gap that was pretty close despite a vertical map. Now if Im not mistaken, I believe you found a flat stretch in PvE that you wanted to test it on. Yet we have not seen the result. Care to explain why?

    Nope sorry , he explained to you with videos and words , that's he is right
    As i said , i willing to buy 2 accounts and put you in low pop WvWvW server to prove him wrong in a race , but you alway back away , finding an excuse

    I figured after everyone told you youre wrong, you wouldve given up on trolling, but kitten. He didnt explain anything other than the very first time. Which was with a lot of errors that I fixed, and once I fixed them, turns out his math proved that Ranger and Warrior were faster. He never answered afterwards. And the one video he provided is of course shoddy and also worthless. And buying accounts is against the ToS. Im not gonna get banned because some troll thinks its an argument.

    Show in action how to save 10 sec

    I already explained how to save 10 seconds. It was trivial. Now stop trolling.

    Have a duel please
    You have tried on your own and you saved 10 sec , 15 min after the video was released
    You can show us in action

    Or you afraid ?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

    It's not really a debate.

    Correct, because this is an old well known fact in WvW.

    There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

    This however is wrong. Ask any avid WvW player and they tell you the same thing. You also didnt explain to my why it isnt true (on the other hand I did explain to you why it is true), and the only video made was by you, with methodology so unbelievably shoddy that I was able to save 10 seconds without even trying much, and a gap that was pretty close despite a vertical map. Now if Im not mistaken, I believe you found a flat stretch in PvE that you wanted to test it on. Yet we have not seen the result. Care to explain why?

    Nope sorry , he explained to you with videos and words , that's he is right
    As i said , i willing to buy 2 accounts and put you in low pop WvWvW server to prove him wrong in a race , but you alway back away , finding an excuse

    I figured after everyone told you youre wrong, you wouldve given up on trolling, but kitten. He didnt explain anything other than the very first time. Which was with a lot of errors that I fixed, and once I fixed them, turns out his math proved that Ranger and Warrior were faster. He never answered afterwards. And the one video he provided is of course shoddy and also worthless. And buying accounts is against the ToS. Im not gonna get banned because some troll thinks its an argument.

    Show in action how to save 10 sec

    I already explained how to save 10 seconds. It was trivial. Now stop trolling.

    Have a duel please
    You have tried on your own and you saved 10 sec , 15 min after the video was released
    You can show us in action

    Or you afraid ?

    lol yeah I noticed that too.

    It was like 5 minutes after I posted the video, he responds with telling me he just went out and ran his own full test with all 3 classes.

    It wasn't even enough time for him to have watched the full video, let alone run any organized standard of testing.

    Amazing.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    Non-horizontal map. Did not use swiftness on Soulbeast. Did not maximise speed on Soulbeast. Multiple mistakes on warrior and soulbeast. Poorly optimised pathing on warrior and soulbeast. Gee wiz, I wonder why you got that result with how shoddy your methodology was. Now try it again in WvW, on a perfectly flat stretch of land, in a straight line, without making mistakes.

    Edit: oh and nice blatant lie at the end. Daredevil would slow down quite a bit as well, warrior would slow down a lot less.

    The daredevil wouldn't slow down much dude. We are talking a margin of 3% it would slow down or something from what is in the video. It has 50% movement while stealthed. The war and range on the other hand, would slow down drastically from only 25% in combat war sprint and 30% beast merge. Even if they had perma swiftness it's only 33% which hits extremely hard in combat vs. 50%. Notice the sheer uptime of stealth that the daredevil gets in the video, it's almost 100% uptime. And I wasn't even going out of my way to coordinate it so the stealth 50% was being used only when regening init. So pretty much you could organize it so whenever the daredevil has to WASD move, it will be in stealth 100% of that time. <- Realistically in combat, that is an enormously large amount of movement over the war or range. I mean you are trying to argue out of combat horizontal racing and the daredevil still is winning. In combat however there is absolutely no comparison, the daredevil will move a great deal faster than war or range due to that 50% while stealthed.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Naqam a.6521 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @darren.1064 said:
    The irony of this post that I'd like everybody to look at is that thief is acknowledged only for it's speed nowadays. The damage is so bad that it is made "feasible" only because thief has --possibly-- the best speed in the game as is being debated right now. However, what is all the speed in the world if you go into even a +1 and do the damage of a wet noodle?

    It's not really a debate.

    Correct, because this is an old well known fact in WvW.

    There is literally just one guy in the entire community base who believes warriors & rangers can outrun a thief, despite everyone else making videos for him and explaining to him why it isn't true.

    This however is wrong. Ask any avid WvW player and they tell you the same thing. You also didnt explain to my why it isnt true (on the other hand I did explain to you why it is true), and the only video made was by you, with methodology so unbelievably shoddy that I was able to save 10 seconds without even trying much, and a gap that was pretty close despite a vertical map. Now if Im not mistaken, I believe you found a flat stretch in PvE that you wanted to test it on. Yet we have not seen the result. Care to explain why?

    Nope sorry , he explained to you with videos and words , that's he is right
    As i said , i willing to buy 2 accounts and put you in low pop WvWvW server to prove him wrong in a race , but you alway back away , finding an excuse

    I figured after everyone told you youre wrong, you wouldve given up on trolling, but kitten. He didnt explain anything other than the very first time. Which was with a lot of errors that I fixed, and once I fixed them, turns out his math proved that Ranger and Warrior were faster. He never answered afterwards. And the one video he provided is of course shoddy and also worthless. And buying accounts is against the ToS. Im not gonna get banned because some troll thinks its an argument.

    Show in action how to save 10 sec

    I already explained how to save 10 seconds. It was trivial. Now stop trolling.

    Have a duel please
    You have tried on your own and you saved 10 sec , 15 min after the video was released
    You can show us in action

    Or you afraid ?

    lol yeah I noticed that too.

    It was like 5 minutes after I posted the video, he responds with telling me he just went out and ran his own full test with all 3 classes.

    Your post: September 4th, 1:20 AM. My first reply, 1:28 AM. My first reply containing my results where I shaved 10 seconds off your time, 2:09 am. Almost an hour later. Maybe if youre gonna lie, dont go for such an easily disproven lie?

    It wasn't even enough time for him to have watched the full video, let alone run any organized standard of testing.

    Yes, obviously 49 minutes arent enough. Seriously, what were you thinking was going to happen if you lie so obviously?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    I am willing to stream it as well. I'll play the Thief. And yes, I want to put gold down on this.

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @ArthurDent.9538 said:
    The obvious solution to this is get Trevor on thief and unowen on ranger/warrior in the same foefire custom arena together and have them foot race from one Lord room to the other (no porting over the cliffs in the middle). As for me I'll gladly bet 100g on thief winning, any takers?

    Which part of "perfectly horizontal" are you not quite getting? The point was that specifically sPvPs non-horizontal map design is why thieves mobility beats ranger and warrior, while WvWs perfectly flat planes make warrior and ranger win.

    We can do it in pvp, in wvw, in a pve dungeon, in a plane, on a train, it won't matter. The Thief will always win.

    Find a friend on soulbeast and warrior and do it then. And do it properly, like I did a while back. Odds are youll get the same result, which is warrior and ranger winning. Do watch out if youre trying to do it around castle in EBG though, sometimes you get the no valid path thing there, which might ruin the race. But no, thief will never win on a perfectly horizontal plane. Thats what the math shows, and thats what a couple tests I did showed as well.

    No, I need you to help me do this race so it gets done properly. I want to play the Thief and you be on the Soulbeast.

    What if I say no? Ive seen how this goes before, even when they get proven wrong, people dont admit it.

    Funny you mention that.

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:
    @Trevor Boyer.6524
    I would bet gold on that too, if it comes to that I bet 300g on tif, if there are any takers.
    If mathematician doesnt kitten out, makes sure to record so we all can have a good laugh, dont be selfish plx.

    Time to ante up boys.

    @FrownyClown.8402 said:
    Dont make him repeat himself pls

    Too late.

    And on that day, a fine test sample was ran for everyone's enjoyment:

    Non-horizontal map. Did not use swiftness on Soulbeast. Did not maximise speed on Soulbeast. Multiple mistakes on warrior and soulbeast. Poorly optimised pathing on warrior and soulbeast. Gee wiz, I wonder why you got that result with how shoddy your methodology was. Now try it again in WvW, on a perfectly flat stretch of land, in a straight line, without making mistakes.

    Edit: oh and nice blatant lie at the end. Daredevil would slow down quite a bit as well, warrior would slow down a lot less.

    The daredevil wouldn't slow down much dude. We are talking a margin of 3% it would slow down or something from what is in the video. It has 50% movement while stealthed. The war and range on the other hand, would slow down drastically from only 25% in combat war sprint and 30% beast merge. Even if they had perma swiftness it's only 33% which hits extremely hard in combat vs. 50%. Notice the sheer uptime of stealth that the daredevil gets in the video, it's almost 100% uptime. And I wasn't even going out of my way to coordinate it so the stealth 50% was being used only when regening init. So pretty much you could organize it so whenever the daredevil has to WASD move, it will be in stealth 100% of that time. <- Realistically in combat, that is an enormously large amount of movement over the war or range. I mean you are trying to argue out of combat horizontal racing and the daredevil still is winning. In combat however there is absolutely no comparison, the daredevil will move a great deal faster than war or range due to that 50% while stealthed.

    I had explained this before, but more important than your swiftness degree is how much of your movement is done using dashes. Their speed doesnt change at all. And Ranger and Warior spend more of it.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    Nope you're right. You didn't make an actual statement until about 40 minutes later.

    But arguing that 50% movement in combat is somehow not a large advantage over 33% is ridiculous my dude ^^

    You don't have to use Dash when the 50% movement is on from stealth, and even if you did it wouldn't matter. It's virtually the same speed.

    Should I make an in-combat video for you?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Nope you're right. You didn't make an actual statement until about 40 minutes later.

    Yes, because you totally didnt know that, because you totally dont have a way of checking that. And this totally isnt backtracking.

    But arguing that 50% movement in combat is somehow not a large advantage over 33% is ridiculous my dude ^^

    Its an advantage, yes. But here is the thing. Its not as big of an advantage as spending more times in dashes. Imagine for example you had a class that moved exclusively through fixed distance dashes. In combat and out of combat, their mobility is literally identical. Those dashes dont get slower. Your movement speed however does.

    You don't have to use Dash when the 50% movement is on from stealth, and even if you did it wouldn't matter. It's virtually the same speed.

    You do actually, its faster than moving.

    Should I make an in-combat video for you?

    Given your shoddy methodology so far, I have negative confidence your result wont be just as worthless.

  • Guys... owen wins, trev wins, we all win, now letz go for ice cream
    No?

  • I really want to know how ranger can outrun thieves. Perhaps I can finally catch them then.

    It's a bit hard to catch a class that not only has like 3 teleports in a row, but also 3 dodges, that travel further than normal dodges, ontop of Swiftness ontop of the shadow art tree.

    I really wanna know how.

    Because my Swoop does not cover the same distance, last I checked. Even with Gazelle there is no way in Tyria I can catch up to a thief that really wants to flee.

  • Ronald McDonald.8165Ronald McDonald.8165 Member ✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    I had explained this before, but more important than your swiftness degree is how much of your movement is done using dashes. Their speed doesnt change at all. And Ranger and Warior spend more of it.

    I don't understand how you're willing to argue this for days but refuse to make a video to prove your point. It's time to either put up or shut up.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    I had explained this before, but more important than your swiftness degree is how much of your movement is done using dashes. Their speed doesnt change at all. And Ranger and Warior spend more of it.

    I don't understand how you're willing to argue this for days but refuse to make a video to prove your point. It's time to either put up or shut up.

    this is what happens when you use your pride.
    he knows he is wrong but he is too full of kitten to admit it.

  • @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    I had explained this before, but more important than your swiftness degree is how much of your movement is done using dashes. Their speed doesnt change at all. And Ranger and Warior spend more of it.

    I don't understand how you're willing to argue this for days but refuse to make a video to prove your point. It's time to either put up or shut up.

    this is what happens when you use your pride.
    he knows he is wrong but he is too full of kitten to admit it.

    Well we humans are humans, we will defend something that we know is wrong, just because we do not want to be wrong.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    I had explained this before, but more important than your swiftness degree is how much of your movement is done using dashes. Their speed doesnt change at all. And Ranger and Warior spend more of it.

    I don't understand how you're willing to argue this for days but refuse to make a video to prove your point. It's time to either put up or shut up.

    Given the last time I tried to install recording software, the debugging would take too long and be way too annoying to be worth it.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Leonidrex.5649 said:

    @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    I had explained this before, but more important than your swiftness degree is how much of your movement is done using dashes. Their speed doesnt change at all. And Ranger and Warior spend more of it.

    I don't understand how you're willing to argue this for days but refuse to make a video to prove your point. It's time to either put up or shut up.

    this is what happens when you use your pride.
    he knows he is wrong but he is too full of kitten to admit it.

    No I know Im right, but Im not gonna bother wasting my time and patience to prove those who have shown they dont care about the truth, and will never admit when theyre wrong. Youre one of them, you should know that.

  • Leonidrex.5649Leonidrex.5649 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @GoldenPants.1870
    some of us do, some of us dont, shrug. It is how it is, and it will be how it is.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    Also, as it pertains to the ranger MH sw2 cast time, it really does matter. The very sticky delays on both sword 3 and about-face sword 2 for mobility really cut into that combo's ability to move rangers across the field. I've practiced that opening many times in many matches, and guess what? Teammates just running in a straight line out of spawn can easily match me, and outright beat me if they have swiftness. What you dismiss as a mere cast time animation is 100% relevant here, as it significantly slows movement.

    Yeah Im gonna easily call kitten. Actually, why are you talking sword? I ended up not using sword in any of the comparisions. For that matter, why are you using about-face on sword 2, its sword 3 that evades backwards.

    I only mentioned sword because early on in the thread (prior to any demonstrations), you mentioned ranger sword as if it would help in the foot race. When @Trevor Boyer.6524 correctly pointed out that the wack animations on the associated sword movement skills invalidated your point, you just essentially said "eh not really it's still fast." I merely wanted to add that I've extensively tested (short of using macros, I can't help but see them as cheats and refuse to get into them) using them out of combat, and the clunky animations do indeed prevent that sword 3-2 combo from being the super movement skill you seemed to think it is. Just running in a straight line seems to match it, and running with swiftness beats it.

    And your comment on about face just reinforces the point that you don't know how to use that combo. Sword 3 is indeed the one that evades backwards, so no matter what after you use sword 3 if you want to keep moving in the same direction, you about-face and use sword 2.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    Also, as it pertains to the ranger MH sw2 cast time, it really does matter. The very sticky delays on both sword 3 and about-face sword 2 for mobility really cut into that combo's ability to move rangers across the field. I've practiced that opening many times in many matches, and guess what? Teammates just running in a straight line out of spawn can easily match me, and outright beat me if they have swiftness. What you dismiss as a mere cast time animation is 100% relevant here, as it significantly slows movement.

    Yeah Im gonna easily call kitten. Actually, why are you talking sword? I ended up not using sword in any of the comparisions. For that matter, why are you using about-face on sword 2, its sword 3 that evades backwards.

    I only mentioned sword because early on in the thread (prior to any demonstrations), you mentioned ranger sword as if it would help in the foot race. When @Trevor Boyer.6524 correctly pointed out that the wack animations on the associated sword movement skills invalidated your point, you just essentially said "eh not really it's still fast." I merely wanted to add that I've extensively tested (short of using macros, I can't help but see them as cheats and refuse to get into them) using them out of combat, and the clunky animations do indeed prevent that sword 3-2 combo from being the super movement skill you seemed to think it is. Just running in a straight line seems to match it, and running with swiftness beats it.

    I mentioned it would (Though not by much), but I also said "We dont need it, so Ill ignore it from here". Or something along those lines.

    And your comment on about face just reinforces the point that you don't know how to use that combo. Sword 3 is indeed the one that evades backwards, so no matter what after you use sword 3 if you want to keep moving in the same direction, you about-face and use sword 2.

    Yeah except thats not how you phrased it. You said "sword 3 and about-face sword 2". Implying sword 2 is the one that evades backwards, if you meant that they both need about-face, youd either mention it on both, or not at all.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    Yeah except thats not how you phrased it. You said "sword 3 and about-face sword 2". Implying sword 2 is the one that evades backwards, if you meant that they both need about-face, youd either mention it on both, or not at all.

    Nope. I was just describing what I usually do in combat. I try to play with escape in mind, so if I'm against someone on a node that I think has a good chance of pushing me into escape and reset, I already have my back to a direction I can evade out to. So the sequence becomes:

    (1) sword 3 (no about face needed because I'm already oriented properly), followed by
    (2) about face, followed by
    (3) sword 2.

    Nice try.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    Yeah except thats not how you phrased it. You said "sword 3 and about-face sword 2". Implying sword 2 is the one that evades backwards, if you meant that they both need about-face, youd either mention it on both, or not at all.

    Nope. I was just describing what I usually do in combat. I try to play with escape in mind, so if I'm against someone on a node that I think has a good chance of pushing me into escape and reset, I already have my back to a direction I can evade out to. So the sequence becomes:

    (1) sword 3 (no about face needed because I'm already oriented properly), followed by
    (2) about face, followed by
    (3) sword 2.

    Nice try.

    Odd that you would use that in a context about out of combat mobility, but sure, I guess.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    Yeah except thats not how you phrased it. You said "sword 3 and about-face sword 2". Implying sword 2 is the one that evades backwards, if you meant that they both need about-face, youd either mention it on both, or not at all.

    Nope. I was just describing what I usually do in combat. I try to play with escape in mind, so if I'm against someone on a node that I think has a good chance of pushing me into escape and reset, I already have my back to a direction I can evade out to. So the sequence becomes:

    (1) sword 3 (no about face needed because I'm already oriented properly), followed by
    (2) about face, followed by
    (3) sword 2.

    Nice try.

    Odd that you would use that in a context about out of combat mobility, but sure, I guess.

    Makes even more sense out of spawn, then. Since you seem to require that level of explanation, here it is:

    (1) since there is a nice countdown timer before match start, I make sure my back is to the gate. then
    (2) sword 3, followed by
    (3) about face, followed by
    (4) sword 2.

    The point is, you seem to think you're being clever by saying that "about face sword 2" somehow implies that sword 2 is the backward jump. This idea of yours is completely invalidated by the fact that sword 3 and sword 2 are in opposite orientations, so to use them successively always requires an about face in between.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    Yeah except thats not how you phrased it. You said "sword 3 and about-face sword 2". Implying sword 2 is the one that evades backwards, if you meant that they both need about-face, youd either mention it on both, or not at all.

    Nope. I was just describing what I usually do in combat. I try to play with escape in mind, so if I'm against someone on a node that I think has a good chance of pushing me into escape and reset, I already have my back to a direction I can evade out to. So the sequence becomes:

    (1) sword 3 (no about face needed because I'm already oriented properly), followed by
    (2) about face, followed by
    (3) sword 2.

    Nice try.

    Odd that you would use that in a context about out of combat mobility, but sure, I guess.

    Makes even more sense out of spawn, then. Since you seem to require that level of explanation, here it is:

    (1) since there is a nice countdown timer before match start, I make sure my back is to the gate. then
    (2) sword 3, followed by
    (3) about face, followed by
    (4) sword 2.

    The point is, you seem to think you're being clever by saying that "about face sword 2" somehow implies that sword 2 is the backward jump. This idea of yours is completely invalidated by the fact that sword 3 and sword 2 are in opposite orientations, so to use them successively always requires an about face in between.

    The context is rotating around the map, so that doesnt work either. Again, odd context to use this, but you do you.

  • @UNOwen.7132 said:

    The context is rotating around the map, so that doesnt work either. Again, odd context to use this, but you do you.

    Ah, the ever shifting context/goalposts. Okay, I'll do me. You do you, which apparently includes weak logic and bad rangering.

  • Ronald McDonald.8165Ronald McDonald.8165 Member ✭✭
    edited September 16, 2020

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    I had explained this before, but more important than your swiftness degree is how much of your movement is done using dashes. Their speed doesnt change at all. And Ranger and Warior spend more of it.

    I don't understand how you're willing to argue this for days but refuse to make a video to prove your point. It's time to either put up or shut up.

    Given the last time I tried to install recording software, the debugging would take too long and be way too annoying to be worth it.

    There are so many free tools that are really easy to use. Windows 10 has a built in tool for recording games. Nvidia's Geforce Experience has a built in tool for recording. Then there are the literally hundreds of free options. Fraps is stupid easy to use.

    Wouldn't you rather jut prove everyone wrong with a video and end it?

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    @Ronald McDonald.8165 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    I had explained this before, but more important than your swiftness degree is how much of your movement is done using dashes. Their speed doesnt change at all. And Ranger and Warior spend more of it.

    I don't understand how you're willing to argue this for days but refuse to make a video to prove your point. It's time to either put up or shut up.

    Given the last time I tried to install recording software, the debugging would take too long and be way too annoying to be worth it.

    There are so many free tools that are really easy to use. Windows 10 has a built in tool for recording games. Nvidia's Geforce Experience has a built in tool for recording. Then there are the literally hundreds of free options. Fraps is stupid easy to use.

    Geforce Experience would require me to figure out what my login was. The windows 10 tool doesnt seem to work. Fraps loved to crash things. Thats the thing, the tools tend to bug out, and Im not about to spend time debugging.

  • UNOwen.7132UNOwen.7132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @voltaicbore.8012 said:

    @UNOwen.7132 said:

    The context is rotating around the map, so that doesnt work either. Again, odd context to use this, but you do you.

    Ah, the ever shifting context/goalposts. Okay, I'll do me. You do you, which apparently includes weak logic and bad rangering.

    Yeah except neither the context nor the goalposts were shifting. This is what it was about from the very start. This is just you backtracking after you made the error of not looking at what the context was. Weak logic is what youre doing.