KPs good in high population - KPs bad in low population - No KPs is good in low population - Page 2 — Guild Wars 2 Forums
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KPs good in high population - KPs bad in low population - No KPs is good in low population

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  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

    In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

    Simply put:
    If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

    Even if not, here is what I did:
    I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

    The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

    No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

    Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

    I agree with you.
    It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

    People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

    Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

    I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

    Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

    It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

    So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

    Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

    At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

    The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

    All you have to imagine is this:
    Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

    This conversation has somehow deviated far far away from where it started.

    My OP post was never about player reluctance to take the time and effort to train someone new.

    My OP post was about experienced players discriminating against experienced players because someone has 9000 LIs and someone else only has 6000.

    A veteran wanting to get his clear done quickly on a night rather than taking hours and hours to train new players is certainly reasonable. But veterans discriminating against other veterans over some diminutive difference in skill value, could only be viewed as ridiculous at best.

    Big difference there.

    They're kind of the same problem though: The veteran is so paranoid about having to help someone they're enforcing KP requirements above and beyond what is necessary. With willing people, sitting there in front of them. With at worst, slight issues clearing the content. They probably spent more time waiting than it would have for them to take that TINY chance on even an experienced player and explain something if necessary.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

    In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

    Simply put:
    If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

    Even if not, here is what I did:
    I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

    The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

    No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

    Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

    I agree with you.
    It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

    People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

    Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

    I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

    Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

    It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

    So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

    Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

    At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

    The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

    All you have to imagine is this:
    Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

    This conversation has somehow deviated far far away from where it started.

    My OP post was never about player reluctance to take the time and effort to train someone new.

    My OP post was about experienced players discriminating against experienced players because someone has 9000 LIs and someone else only has 6000.

    A veteran wanting to get his clear done quickly on a night rather than taking hours and hours to train new players is certainly reasonable. But veterans discriminating against other veterans over some diminutive difference in skill value, could only be viewed as ridiculous at best.

    Big difference there.

    They're kind of the same problem though: The veteran is so paranoid about having to help someone they're enforcing KP requirements above and beyond what is necessary. With willing people, sitting there in front of them. With at worst, slight issues clearing the content. They probably spent more time waiting than it would have for them to take that TINY chance on even an experienced player and explain something if necessary.

    What is your raid experience in this game?

    What is your fractal experience in this game including with CMs?

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 14, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

    I never said every chance. That's narrative control hun. I've posted in many places looking for a static and no one seems to want me, even though I've done many wings, seen almost all of all of them except two and have 12 boss kills under my belt. I'm fairly experienced, I feel I'm experienced enough to get through mechanics fairly quickly and I wouldn't be a drag to a static. In fact i know I won't because I've been invited to statics and we've still succeeded without wipes. You can't erase that fact. and Who knows, maybe just no one plays when I do, but most posts looking for more raiders are looking for people with tons and tons of KP. I'm done sitting through training sessions for hours with no intention of actually getting a kill. I'll still go my guild's every now and then, but your toxicity, assumptions about me etc, combined with my struggles getting a static when i believe I'm fairly skilled, based on my experience has me thinking "I should just pay those raid sellers to finish the coalescence collections just in case I ever get the LDS, and say screw it and WvW for the rest of my trinket leggies, slumbering conflux and conflux are equipable at the same time".

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

    I never said every chance. That's narrative control hun. I've posted in many places looking for a static and no one seems to want me, even though I've done many wings, seen almost all of all of them except two and have 12 boss kills under my belt. I'm fairly experienced, I feel I'm experienced enough to get through mechanics fairly quickly and I wouldn't be a drag to a static. In fact i know I won't because I've been invited to statics and we've still succeeded without wipes. You can't erase that fact. and Who knows, maybe just no one plays when I do, but most posts looking for more raiders are looking for people with tons and tons of KP. I'm done sitting through training sessions for hours with no intention of actually getting a kill. I'll still go my guild's every now and then, but your toxicity, assumptions about me etc, combined with my struggles getting a static when i believe I'm fairly skilled, based on my experience has me thinking "I should just pay those raid sellers to finish the coalescence collections just in case I ever get the LDS, and say screw it and WvW for the rest of my trinket leggies, slumbering conflux and conflux are equipable at the same time".

    aaaaand then people decide it isn't worth the hassle to participate in

    that's exactly what ends up happening, and community growth participation begins to drop through the floor

    higher the gates get set, the more frequently this begins happening

    for some reason some people don't seem to be understanding this

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

    I never said every chance. That's narrative control hun. I've posted in many places looking for a static and no one seems to want me, even though I've done many wings, seen almost all of all of them except two and have 12 boss kills under my belt. I'm fairly experienced, I feel I'm experienced enough to get through mechanics fairly quickly and I wouldn't be a drag to a static. In fact i know I won't because I've been invited to statics and we've still succeeded without wipes. You can't erase that fact. and Who knows, maybe just no one plays when I do, but most posts looking for more raiders are looking for people with tons and tons of KP. I'm done sitting through training sessions for hours with no intention of actually getting a kill. I'll still go my guild's every now and then, but your toxicity, assumptions about me etc, combined with my struggles getting a static when i believe I'm fairly skilled, based on my experience has me thinking "I should just pay those raid sellers to finish the coalescence collections just in case I ever get the LDS, and say screw it and WvW for the rest of my trinket leggies, slumbering conflux and conflux are equipable at the same time".

    Sorry to break it to you bud 12 boss kills is not fairly experienced, I got over 1000 and would say Im just fairly in experienced.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

    I never said every chance. That's narrative control hun.

    You became so hyper-fixated on training coming only from the LFG. If you see no training groups in the LFG then that apparently meant that veteran players do not train new players. You then brought up KP for some reason, in regards to training, when groups that require that are looking to do clears. They are not looking to train players.

    I've posted in many places looking for a static and no one seems to want me, even though I've done many wings, seen almost all of all of them except two and have 12 boss kills under my belt. I'm fairly experienced, I feel I'm experienced enough to get through mechanics fairly quickly and I wouldn't be a drag to a static. In fact i know I won't because I've been invited to statics and we've still succeeded without wipes. You can't erase that fact. and Who knows, maybe just no one plays when I do, but most posts looking for more raiders are looking for people with tons and tons of KP. I'm done sitting through training sessions for hours with no intention of actually getting a kill.

    Sorry but 12 boss kills is nowhere near experienced. This is exactly why groups require KP. It's also why a lot of static groups won't take you because you're still in the learning process. I don't hold much weight to an individual player's performance in a static solely based on whether the static was successful without wipes. This is because it's very possible for a static to carry a player so using that as a basis is unreliable.

    I'll still go my guild's every now and then, but your toxicity, assumptions about me etc, combined with my struggles getting a static when i believe I'm fairly skilled, based on my experience has me thinking "I should just pay those raid sellers to finish the coalescence collections just in case I ever get the LDS, and say screw it and WvW for the rest of my trinket leggies, slumbering conflux and conflux are equipable at the same time".

    Exactly where have I been toxic? Disagreeing with you is not toxicity.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

    I never said every chance. That's narrative control hun.

    You became so hyper-fixated on training coming only from the LFG. If you see no training groups in the LFG then that apparently meant that veteran players do not train new players. You then brought up KP for some reason, in regards to training, when groups that require that are looking to do clears. They are not looking to train players.

    I've posted in many places looking for a static and no one seems to want me, even though I've done many wings, seen almost all of all of them except two and have 12 boss kills under my belt. I'm fairly experienced, I feel I'm experienced enough to get through mechanics fairly quickly and I wouldn't be a drag to a static. In fact i know I won't because I've been invited to statics and we've still succeeded without wipes. You can't erase that fact. and Who knows, maybe just no one plays when I do, but most posts looking for more raiders are looking for people with tons and tons of KP. I'm done sitting through training sessions for hours with no intention of actually getting a kill.

    Sorry but 12 boss kills is nowhere near experienced. This is exactly why groups require KP. It's also why a lot of static groups won't take you because you're still in the learning process. I don't hold much weight to an individual player's performance in a static solely based on whether the static was successful without wipes. This is because it's very possible for a static to carry a player so using that as a basis is unreliable.

    I'll still go my guild's every now and then, but your toxicity, assumptions about me etc, combined with my struggles getting a static when i believe I'm fairly skilled, based on my experience has me thinking "I should just pay those raid sellers to finish the coalescence collections just in case I ever get the LDS, and say screw it and WvW for the rest of my trinket leggies, slumbering conflux and conflux are equipable at the same time".

    Exactly where have I been toxic? Disagreeing with you is not toxicity.

    How about assuming my methods for finding groups for one? It's been ages since i used lfg for raids. Your automatic assumptions assume i'm picking the worst possible method. That's basically assuming i'm an idiot. There's other things i could go into, but you just aren't worth my time. Any intelligent person can see them.

    This isn't the first time you've made assumptions about me. I absolutely LOVE that someone, probably Cy, upvoted your comment. Like kitten all of you.

    I'm so glad anet can see your toxicity in full display at the top of this forum page for who knows how much longer. It'll do wonders for their will to crank out more raid content i'm sure. Who knows mayne they won't let a bad apple spoil the bunch. Or maybe they will....

    Tot ziens!

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

    I never said every chance. That's narrative control hun.

    You became so hyper-fixated on training coming only from the LFG. If you see no training groups in the LFG then that apparently meant that veteran players do not train new players. You then brought up KP for some reason, in regards to training, when groups that require that are looking to do clears. They are not looking to train players.

    I've posted in many places looking for a static and no one seems to want me, even though I've done many wings, seen almost all of all of them except two and have 12 boss kills under my belt. I'm fairly experienced, I feel I'm experienced enough to get through mechanics fairly quickly and I wouldn't be a drag to a static. In fact i know I won't because I've been invited to statics and we've still succeeded without wipes. You can't erase that fact. and Who knows, maybe just no one plays when I do, but most posts looking for more raiders are looking for people with tons and tons of KP. I'm done sitting through training sessions for hours with no intention of actually getting a kill.

    Sorry but 12 boss kills is nowhere near experienced. This is exactly why groups require KP. It's also why a lot of static groups won't take you because you're still in the learning process. I don't hold much weight to an individual player's performance in a static solely based on whether the static was successful without wipes. This is because it's very possible for a static to carry a player so using that as a basis is unreliable.

    I'll still go my guild's every now and then, but your toxicity, assumptions about me etc, combined with my struggles getting a static when i believe I'm fairly skilled, based on my experience has me thinking "I should just pay those raid sellers to finish the coalescence collections just in case I ever get the LDS, and say screw it and WvW for the rest of my trinket leggies, slumbering conflux and conflux are equipable at the same time".

    Exactly where have I been toxic? Disagreeing with you is not toxicity.

    How about assuming my methods for finding groups for one? It's been ages since i used lfg for raids.

    Assuming that you used LFG to find training groups isn’t toxic. The only reason I came to that conclusion was because you were so hyper-fixated on them in the first place. Every time options that new players had to be trained by veterans were given, you always went back to how the LFG didn’t have training groups. In another instance you brought up The advertisements that requires KP which were for clears and had nothing to do with training.

    Your automatic assumptions assume i'm picking the worst possible method. That's basically assuming i'm an idiot. There's other things i could go into, but you just aren't worth my time. Any intelligent person can see them.

    I’m sorry but this isn’t my fault. Nowhere in my posts did I equate someone’s intelligence to the method that they find training groups.

    This isn't the first time you've made assumptions about me. I absolutely LOVE that someone, probably Cy, upvoted your comment. Like kitten all of you.

    I make assumptions based on the information that’s made available. The reason that I asked for your raid experience was because you made comments about the impact an inexperienced player would have on a group doing clears.

    I'm so glad anet can see your toxicity in full display at the top of this forum page for who knows how much longer. It'll do wonders for their will to crank out more raid content i'm sure. Who knows mayne they won't let a bad apple spoil the bunch. Or maybe they will....

    Tot ziens!

    Well so far the toxicity isn’t coming from me. All that I have done is disagreed with you which isn’t toxicity.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 15, 2020

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

    I never said every chance. That's narrative control hun.

    You became so hyper-fixated on training coming only from the LFG. If you see no training groups in the LFG then that apparently meant that veteran players do not train new players. You then brought up KP for some reason, in regards to training, when groups that require that are looking to do clears. They are not looking to train players.

    I've posted in many places looking for a static and no one seems to want me, even though I've done many wings, seen almost all of all of them except two and have 12 boss kills under my belt. I'm fairly experienced, I feel I'm experienced enough to get through mechanics fairly quickly and I wouldn't be a drag to a static. In fact i know I won't because I've been invited to statics and we've still succeeded without wipes. You can't erase that fact. and Who knows, maybe just no one plays when I do, but most posts looking for more raiders are looking for people with tons and tons of KP. I'm done sitting through training sessions for hours with no intention of actually getting a kill.

    Sorry but 12 boss kills is nowhere near experienced. This is exactly why groups require KP. It's also why a lot of static groups won't take you because you're still in the learning process. I don't hold much weight to an individual player's performance in a static solely based on whether the static was successful without wipes. This is because it's very possible for a static to carry a player so using that as a basis is unreliable.

    I'll still go my guild's every now and then, but your toxicity, assumptions about me etc, combined with my struggles getting a static when i believe I'm fairly skilled, based on my experience has me thinking "I should just pay those raid sellers to finish the coalescence collections just in case I ever get the LDS, and say screw it and WvW for the rest of my trinket leggies, slumbering conflux and conflux are equipable at the same time".

    Exactly where have I been toxic? Disagreeing with you is not toxicity.

    How about assuming my methods for finding groups for one? It's been ages since i used lfg for raids.

    Assuming that you used LFG to find training groups isn’t toxic. The only reason I came to that conclusion was because you were so hyper-fixated on them in the first place. Every time options that new players had to be trained by veterans were given, you always went back to how the LFG didn’t have training groups. In another instance you brought up The advertisements that requires KP which were for clears and had nothing to do with training.

    I take it you don't look at postings looking for people for statics or RA much, do you? I believe when i looked on guild postings here too the ones I found were also requesting highly experienced people. Funny you think you're so qualified to talk about this but don't seem to be interacting with other avenues.

    Your automatic assumptions assume i'm picking the worst possible method. That's basically assuming i'm an idiot. There's other things i could go into, but you just aren't worth my time. Any intelligent person can see them.

    I’m sorry but this isn’t my fault. Nowhere in my posts did I equate someone’s intelligence to the method that they find training groups.

    You kinda do, you're assuming that they don't know what they're doing. Whether intended or not, you're assuming that the other person must be doing everything wrong and is only having issues due to THEIR problems. That is the most toxic way to approach anyone having issues with anything.

    This isn't the first time you've made assumptions about me. I absolutely LOVE that someone, probably Cy, upvoted your comment. Like kitten all of you.

    I make assumptions based on the information that’s made available. The reason that I asked for your raid experience was because you made comments about the impact an inexperienced player would have on a group doing clears.

    See comments about interactions with community.

    I'm so glad anet can see your toxicity in full display at the top of this forum page for who knows how much longer. It'll do wonders for their will to crank out more raid content i'm sure. Who knows mayne they won't let a bad apple spoil the bunch. Or maybe they will....

    Tot ziens!

    Well so far the toxicity isn’t coming from me. All that I have done is disagreed with you which isn’t toxicity.

    You've done far more than that.

    Also, come to think about it, plenty of guilds in WoW when posting for new players, even like really good guilds, will just state the role they're looking for. They don't talk about "Mythic last season" etc. That doesn't mean they don't vet at all, but alot of the constructs in the GW2 community are just plain weird. Like the idea of a training run. No one raids in WoW not trying to kill the boss. (o kitten, the one DPS died, everyone, GG now!) I mean sure, if the person is critical there's not a lot of choice, but outside that?

    One time, I got invited to a mythic level raiding guild, just for being on a mount that was exclusive to heroic mode. And they didn't even ask me if I bought the run. I didn't raid with them because of the time commitment that entailed, but these barriers people throw up, are just insane. The WoW community is toxic in a lot of other ways, but strangley enough, the culture around raiding is actually not that bad.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

    I never said every chance. That's narrative control hun.

    You became so hyper-fixated on training coming only from the LFG. If you see no training groups in the LFG then that apparently meant that veteran players do not train new players. You then brought up KP for some reason, in regards to training, when groups that require that are looking to do clears. They are not looking to train players.

    I've posted in many places looking for a static and no one seems to want me, even though I've done many wings, seen almost all of all of them except two and have 12 boss kills under my belt. I'm fairly experienced, I feel I'm experienced enough to get through mechanics fairly quickly and I wouldn't be a drag to a static. In fact i know I won't because I've been invited to statics and we've still succeeded without wipes. You can't erase that fact. and Who knows, maybe just no one plays when I do, but most posts looking for more raiders are looking for people with tons and tons of KP. I'm done sitting through training sessions for hours with no intention of actually getting a kill.

    Sorry but 12 boss kills is nowhere near experienced. This is exactly why groups require KP. It's also why a lot of static groups won't take you because you're still in the learning process. I don't hold much weight to an individual player's performance in a static solely based on whether the static was successful without wipes. This is because it's very possible for a static to carry a player so using that as a basis is unreliable.

    I'll still go my guild's every now and then, but your toxicity, assumptions about me etc, combined with my struggles getting a static when i believe I'm fairly skilled, based on my experience has me thinking "I should just pay those raid sellers to finish the coalescence collections just in case I ever get the LDS, and say screw it and WvW for the rest of my trinket leggies, slumbering conflux and conflux are equipable at the same time".

    Exactly where have I been toxic? Disagreeing with you is not toxicity.

    How about assuming my methods for finding groups for one? It's been ages since i used lfg for raids.

    Assuming that you used LFG to find training groups isn’t toxic. The only reason I came to that conclusion was because you were so hyper-fixated on them in the first place. Every time options that new players had to be trained by veterans were given, you always went back to how the LFG didn’t have training groups. In another instance you brought up The advertisements that requires KP which were for clears and had nothing to do with training.

    I take it you don't look at postings looking for people for statics or RA much, do you? I believe when i looked on guild postings here too the ones I found were also requesting highly experienced people. Funny you think you're so qualified to talk about this but don't seem to be interacting with other avenues.

    So you were referring specifically to the "Looking for Group" sub-forum on these forums and not the LFG in the game? When you said LFG, it's the in-game one that I immediately think of. The vast majority of players do not visit the forums and the very few that do go to that sub-forum. This is evident by the frequency of threads/posts and the views.

    Your automatic assumptions assume i'm picking the worst possible method. That's basically assuming i'm an idiot. There's other things i could go into, but you just aren't worth my time. Any intelligent person can see them.

    I’m sorry but this isn’t my fault. Nowhere in my posts did I equate someone’s intelligence to the method that they find training groups.

    You kinda do, you're assuming that they don't know what they're doing. Whether intended or not, you're assuming that the other person must be doing everything wrong and is only having issues due to THEIR problems. That is the most toxic way to approach anyone having issues with anything.

    Not knowing how to do something in the game is not the same as someone's intelligence. Someone's intelligence is not measured by them being able to do X in a game.

    This isn't the first time you've made assumptions about me. I absolutely LOVE that someone, probably Cy, upvoted your comment. Like kitten all of you.

    I make assumptions based on the information that’s made available. The reason that I asked for your raid experience was because you made comments about the impact an inexperienced player would have on a group doing clears.

    See comments about interactions with community.

    Sorry but I'm not going to go out and find some random post of yours and especially that it likely would not have anything to do by someone that could be potentially inexperienced with raids making claims on how an inexperienced player would impact groups which take them. There are mechanics in a large percentage of raids where a single player could potentially harm the group if not cause an outright wipe.

    I'm so glad anet can see your toxicity in full display at the top of this forum page for who knows how much longer. It'll do wonders for their will to crank out more raid content i'm sure. Who knows mayne they won't let a bad apple spoil the bunch. Or maybe they will....

    Tot ziens!

    Well so far the toxicity isn’t coming from me. All that I have done is disagreed with you which isn’t toxicity.

    You've done far more than that.

    Nope. I haven't. It's possible you're reading a little too much into what I said instead of just taking it at face value.

    Also, come to think about it, plenty of guilds in WoW when posting for new players, even like really good guilds, will just state the role they're looking for. They don't talk about "Mythic last season" etc. That doesn't mean they don't vet at all, but alot of the constructs in the GW2 community are just plain weird. Like the idea of a training run. No one raids in WoW not trying to kill the boss. (o kitten, the one DPS died, everyone, GG now!) I mean sure, if the person is critical there's not a lot of choice, but outside that?

    One time, I got invited to a mythic level raiding guild, just for being on a mount that was exclusive to heroic mode. And they didn't even ask me if I bought the run. I didn't raid with them because of the time commitment that entailed, but these barriers people throw up, are just insane. The WoW community is toxic in a lot of other ways, but strangley enough, the culture around raiding is actually not that bad.

    This isn't WoW. GW2 raids are not the same as WoW raids. WoW also has a bigger community so there will be more visibility for things. If GW2 had the population of WoW then certainly the number of raiders would increase proportionally which would mean more opportunities for players to get trained. Unfortunately that's not the case and the PvE game is designed where the pinnacle of open world content is standing at a boss' foot with a mass of players auto-attacking it until it dies. That are swarming around a map with a group of players from one area to another while greatly overwhelming any enemies in the path. Riveting...

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    Also, come to think about it, plenty of guilds in WoW when posting for new players, even like really good guilds, will just state the role they're looking for. They don't talk about "Mythic last season" etc. That doesn't mean they don't vet at all, but alot of the constructs in the GW2 community are just plain weird. Like the idea of a training run. No one raids in WoW not trying to kill the boss. (o kitten, the one DPS died, everyone, GG now!) I mean sure, if the person is critical there's not a lot of choice, but outside that?

    One time, I got invited to a mythic level raiding guild, just for being on a mount that was exclusive to heroic mode. And they didn't even ask me if I bought the run. I didn't raid with them because of the time commitment that entailed, but these barriers people throw up, are just insane. The WoW community is toxic in a lot of other ways, but strangley enough, the culture around raiding is actually not that bad.

    Oh give me a break. There is far more vetting in WoW than here. There is far more ability to inspect and pre judge a person in WoW than here without that person even knowing about it. People don't have to ask about last season mystic clears, they can simply look those up in the armory. The constructs here are exactly BECAUSE we don't have as intrusive systems as WoW so please don't turn this around as some kind of twisted benefit.

    I get you are frustrated, but please keep the WoW love and bs in check. Guess what, if we had an armory system the way WoW does, with all past clears easily presented as well as players entire gear for everyone to see, I can guarantee you that no one would ask for KP.

    So yes, let's get rid of KP at the cost of an all encompassing armor and achievement tracker that WoW has, after all as you claim WoW's approach is far better. Somehow I doubt that is in the interest of most players though...

    I love how both you and Ay will tell me my experiences are invalid or didn't happen because it doesn't fit your world view. I only had 1 clear. In heroic, you can choose not to believe me, but it did happen. You can call "bs" as much as you want!

    There's literally no point to talk to you about my experiences because you're on EU servers Cy. Or you've proactively blocked me. But I think the former is true. If you're in a completely different continent, with a completely different culture, you can't tell me what life is or isn't like on my servers.

    Also Ay isn't even a member of RA. That's probably why she assumed I went here for LFG as like my only thing and ignored my obvious refereence to them. Neither of you are qualified to talk to me about my experiences. You can disbelieve me that's fine, but arguing with me when you're not even involved in the communities I'm supposed to be interacting with isn't helpful. I've been searching for a static, and unable to find one (in fact, scrolling through the statics again in RA, there's lots of repeat posts, people are struggling to fill, I could assume for reasons the OP states, because there's spreads in experience and RA has frozen their static creation).

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

    With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but without content locust padding a large part of that number).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Firebeard.1746Firebeard.1746 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    Most statics form on a far far far higher experience level than you posess (based on what you have cleared). In fact, most statics form around full clearing either the old wings (w1-4) or all 7 wings and usually fill up key positions. That's for statics that fill up, which are in general the ones searching for players on forums directly.

    Not to be mean, but with 12 LI, not even 1 week worth of boss kills, you are hardly static material for any of those yet. If you want a static, you have 3 approaches:
    1. Make your own
    2. Join a guild which does regular raids, become a fixed memeber of their raid roster
    3. Get lucky in finding that 1 static which forums around players wanting to train and get better together, but most of those are guild internal between members and very rarely search outside of their direct social connections

    The easiest to think of is this: statics forum around common goals. Think of which goal in a static is important to you, then think about which goal might be important to others and how you are a benefit to them in accomplishing that goal.

    If the common goal is to full clear, then you can hardly bring something to others and there are far more candidates with more experience (aka thebdtatics that just fill up their roster constantly).

    If the common goal is to get better at raiding, think of where those might be found (regular guild raids often meet this requirement).

    If the goal is to have fun with others on a regular basis, then get to know people you enjoy playing with and see if some of them are interested in playing together regularly.

    Or a combination of those factors (say joining a guild, playing with people regularly while getting to know them, become a fixed member of the roster).

    As with all things when you want something from others consider: what am I bringing to the table in return for what I want?

    I get the mentality, I really do, but here's issue: I've seen all bosses except maybe 6-8 total. The other 21 (I'm counting all raid encounters here) require special knowledge and/or training. The bosses I don't have down I don't believe is due to a lack of my skill. Like yes I had some wipes on those training runs that were my fault, but I normally wasn't the reason we wiped. Basically if I stick to training runs, where if I'm with a bunch of other people learning, I'll be seeing maybe 1 boss a week and I'll lose that expertise on every other boss over time. That's not frequent enough to actually learn the skills/keep the practice to reliably kill a boss.

    The reality is the only sane way to learn these in an efficient way and not lose the skill would be to start a group and start clearing a wing, get good at that wing and start branching out. Which is what progression raiding is. But like you said, 12 LI is paltry in terms of what the community wants so I'm kinda stuck in no man's land.

    If I wanted to become a raider, it feels like it'd be almost like starting a full time job. Train every boss every week, only succeed some of the time, hopefully catch up in LIs enough to be "liked".

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 16, 2020

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I get the mentality, I really do, but here's issue: I've seen all bosses except maybe 6-8 total.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I've posted in many places looking for a static and no one seems to want me, even though I've done many wings, seen almost all of all of them except two and have 12 boss kills under my belt.

    So which is it? You've seen all but two bosses as you stated earlier in the thread or you've seen all but 6-8 which you just now stated?

    Never mind. It looks like I missed that one was referring to wings and not bosses.

  • Fueki.4753Fueki.4753 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I get the mentality, I really do, but here's issue: I've seen all bosses except maybe 6-8 total.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I've posted in many places looking for a static and no one seems to want me, even though I've done many wings, seen almost all of all of them except two and have 12 boss kills under my belt.

    So which is it? You've seen all but two bosses as you stated earlier in the thread or you've seen all but 6-8 which you just now stated?

    I think the two referred to the number of wings he/she didn't see, while 6-8 referred to the numbers of bosses.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Fueki.4753 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I get the mentality, I really do, but here's issue: I've seen all bosses except maybe 6-8 total.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I've posted in many places looking for a static and no one seems to want me, even though I've done many wings, seen almost all of all of them except two and have 12 boss kills under my belt.

    So which is it? You've seen all but two bosses as you stated earlier in the thread or you've seen all but 6-8 which you just now stated?

    I think the two referred to the number of wings he/she didn't see, while 6-8 referred to the numbers of bosses.

    Ah. I missed that. Thanks for pointing it out.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

    With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but without content locust padding a large part of that number).

    Just want to chime in here because this is a good example of what I've been saying.

    Yes, you're right in your comments here. But ask yourself: "Why is the learning process so tedious/painful that players wouldn't want to stick around?"

    In the beginning of HoT when raids were first released, a progression began to happen which has led to what we have now:

    • Raids are first released and there are no expectations being placed on players. Everyone begins participating in raids because it is easy to get into a group.
    • During first few days/first week, people begin figuring out comp methods to deal with certain bosses. Every guild is experimenting with different types of things that work for them. Expectations rise a little bit here for players now. Groups want players to run certain things for a functional comp, but they are still in a phase where everyone is being really lenient with allowing players time to learn.
    • First month/months go by and certain guilds begin mastering the raids while recording speed run times. They begin sharing their methods on stream/video/website. A solid meta begins to form with solid techniques to be used with those meta comps. Now this is where an important change occurs, where players lose all patience for new players/groups who are organically learning the raids. They watch the streams/videos/websites and want to use the exact same method that the fast guilds are using, which is great honestly, and it does give the player base a reference point for organizational purposes to go off of. However, this is a double bladed sword. The strongest veterans within the community begin to isolate themselves into groups of other identified veterans. Now when new players show up to the scene, they are not allowed in groups unless they are running a very specific build and if a group even wants that build in the comp. Organization time begins to go up with raids. People who are new during this phase are not taken in so generously as they would have been during first week release. These new players in this phase are finding it more difficult to even get a chance to join a group and train at all.
    • 6 months to first year goes by. KP checks turn from a reasonable method to gauge general experience & ability to complete content, into a way to make sure squad joins are doing everything perfectly. DPS meters come heavy into the scene and exasperate the problem. Now it isn't enough to form a group with players running the right builds who are capable of completing the content. Now squads are looking for players who can do it nearly perfectly. During this phase, this is where pandora's box is opened. All of the veterans and even new players, are being told by commercial streams/channels/websites that "This is how you run the raids" and they begin to believe that in full. No one tolerates anyone or anything in their group that isn't ridiculously exactly copy/pasted from a meta site. Guys that would have been the pioneers during week one and first month of raid release, who were the ones carrying the strategy & methods of their groups, are now being booted out of squads very seriously because some commander notices he has a difference in his utility skills. And now in this phase when new players show up, even if they are wise enough to watch videos first and show up with proper builds, no one wants to touch them with a 10ft pole because they are inexperienced, and people are tunnel visioning dps meters and KP checks. It begins to become excruciatingly frustrating and an enormous waste of time for new players showing up on the scene to attempt to participate. They often get stuck in these phases of join guild who says they train new players - guild schedules training raid nights - nothing ever gets done because some of the people in the training group are extremely subpar players in general - and the guild won't let the new join who is actually GOOD join the normal team in normal raids even though he is ready - he is permanently caught in the noob fiesta zone because he began play a year late and doesn't have a stock of KPs to ping, even though he is ready to participate with those kinds of players. During this phase many players just leave the scene and don't come back, even though they really really wanted to get involved and possessed all of the skill necessary to do so. They deem that "it isn't worth the time & hassle" if the real boss fight is the community and not the creatures in the raids.
    • Years and years go on, and it brings us to where we are now. In our a current phase, there isn't just a separation of "Experienced Veterans vs. Casuals & New Players" oooooh no, now we have a system of hierarchy going on, where there are like: Super Elites - Elites - Veterans - Guys Who At Least Know Mechanics - New Players. And everyone of these hierarchal categories are working with different expectations and KP checks. The problem with that, is that every hierarchal category refuses to play with a category lower than them. So Super Elites don't want to play with anyone. Elites aren't allowed in with Super Elites and they don't want to play with general Veterans. The Veterans think both the Elites and Super Elites are ridiculous but they act the very same way when they refuse to play with lesser experienced players. Guys who at least know the mechanics are very frustrated because Veterans and Elites and Super Elites won't let them stay in squads even though they know they are capable of completing content. And New Players show up on the scene and very seriously cannot find a group that will play with them at all. Eventually people just get tired and exhausted of the social stigma and segregation and eventually walk away, which usually happens really fast nowadays. This phase is nothing like the first week or month or even first year phase. The expectation and segregation is unbelievably strong in year 9, which certainly doesn't help the speed of squad formation & general participation levels, or the ease of entry for new players to have an incentive to stay and play whatsoever. It's a miracle that anyone would stick around this seen at all to be honest.

    The very important thing to note is that KPs in this game mode have been like a tsunami tidal wave. The players who were lucky enough to have been present during the first couple of era phases were able to benefit the community leniency to allow everyone time to learn. Organization and acceptance was easy back then. The players who played avidly began building KP and it rose up and up and up and those old veterans who had been playing from way back when rose up with it, riding the top of the tsunami tidal wave. It kept growing higher and taller and taller, and everyone underneath it got sucked up in it, losing all their footing & ground & basis for being able to participate. Now that we're in year 9, we can see the damage that the tsunami tidal wave has done. There are entire lobbies of players standing around in LFG or in guilds, trying to form squads, who refuse to play together, because of the walls & gates of hierarchal social stigma.

    This hierarchal social stigma is caused primarily by 3x things: 1) KPs - 2) DPS Meters - 3) Meta Sites & Sources of reference that make everyone even new players believe that it must be done correctly & perfectly or it isn't worth doing at all or that it can't be done.

    What makes the raid game mode difficult, isn't the boss fight content, it's battling the social stigma which makes participation unbelievably impractical in 2020. And before any old veterans disagree with me who have been riding the top of the tidal wave for so long, ask yourselves this: "If you were a new player now in 2020 who had no KPs who knew no one, would you even stick around to participate when joining a decent squad was always met with being kicked, guilds with any real training were so so hard to find and infrequent to be able to participate with, and all the vets tell you to go join your own squad and learn on your own, which ends up being impossible to do because no one will join your new player squad and there are no new player squads to join?"

    ~ Think it over a bit.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

    With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but without content locust padding a large part of that number).

    Just want to chime in here because this is a good example of what I've been saying.

    Yes, you're right in your comments here. But ask yourself: "Why is the learning process so tedious/painful that players wouldn't want to stick around?"

    In the beginning of HoT when raids were first released, a progression began to happen which has led to what we have now:

    • Raids are first released and there are no expectations being placed on players. Everyone begins participating in raids because it is easy to get into a group.
    • During first few days/first week, people begin figuring out comp methods to deal with certain bosses. Every guild is experimenting with different types of things that work for them. Expectations rise a little bit here for players now. Groups want players to run certain things for a functional comp, but they are still in a phase where everyone is being really lenient with allowing players time to learn.
    • First month/months go by and certain guilds begin mastering the raids while recording speed run times. They begin sharing their methods on stream/video/website. A solid meta begins to form with solid techniques to be used with those meta comps. Now this is where an important change occurs, where players lose all patience for new players/groups who are organically learning the raids. They watch the streams/videos/websites and want to use the exact same method that the fast guilds are using, which is great honestly, and it does give the player base a reference point for organizational purposes to go off of. However, this is a double bladed sword. The strongest veterans within the community begin to isolate themselves into groups of other identified veterans. Now when new players show up to the scene, they are not allowed in groups unless they are running a very specific build and if a group even wants that build in the comp. Organization time begins to go up with raids. People who are new during this phase are not taken in so generously as they would have been during first week release. These new players in this phase are finding it more difficult to even get a chance to join a group and train at all.
    • 6 months to first year goes by. KP checks turn from a reasonable method to gauge general experience & ability to complete content, into a way to make sure squad joins are doing everything perfectly. DPS meters come heavy into the scene and exasperate the problem. Now it isn't enough to form a group with players running the right builds who are capable of completing the content. Now squads are looking for players who can do it nearly perfectly. During this phase, this is where pandora's box is opened. All of the veterans and even new players, are being told by commercial streams/channels/websites that "This is how you run the raids" and they begin to believe that in full. No one tolerates anyone or anything in their group that isn't ridiculously exactly copy/pasted from a meta site. Guys that would have been the pioneers during week one and first month of raid release, who were the ones carrying the strategy & methods of their groups, are now being booted out of squads very seriously because some commander notices he has a difference in his utility skills. And now in this phase when new players show up, even if they are wise enough to watch videos first and show up with proper builds, no one wants to touch them with a 10ft pole because they are inexperienced, and people are tunnel visioning dps meters and KP checks. It begins to become excruciatingly frustrating and an enormous waste of time for new players showing up on the scene to attempt to participate. They often get stuck in these phases of join guild who says they train new players - guild schedules training raid nights - nothing ever gets done because some of the people in the training group are extremely subpar players in general - and the guild won't let the new join who is actually GOOD join the normal team in normal raids even though he is ready - he is permanently caught in the noob fiesta zone because he began play a year late and doesn't have a stock of KPs to ping, even though he is ready to participate with those kinds of players. During this phase many players just leave the scene and don't come back, even though they really really wanted to get involved and possessed all of the skill necessary to do so. They deem that "it isn't worth the time & hassle" if the real boss fight is the community and not the creatures in the raids.
    • Years and years go on, and it brings us to where we are now. In our a current phase, there isn't just a separation of "Experienced Veterans vs. Casuals & New Players" oooooh no, now we have a system of hierarchy going on, where there are like: Super Elites - Elites - Veterans - Guys Who At Least Know Mechanics - New Players. And everyone of these hierarchal categories are working with different expectations and KP checks. The problem with that, is that every hierarchal category refuses to play with a category lower than them. So Super Elites don't want to play with anyone. Elites aren't allowed in with Super Elites and they don't want to play with general Veterans. The Veterans think both the Elites and Super Elites are ridiculous but they act the very same way when they refuse to play with lesser experienced players. Guys who at least know the mechanics are very frustrated because Veterans and Elites and Super Elites won't let them stay in squads even though they know they are capable of completing content. And New Players show up on the scene and very seriously cannot find a group that will play with them at all. Eventually people just get tired and exhausted of the social stigma and segregation and eventually walk away, which usually happens really fast nowadays. This phase is nothing like the first week or month or even first year phase. The expectation and segregation is unbelievably strong in year 9, which certainly doesn't help the speed of squad formation & general participation levels, or the ease of entry for new players to have an incentive to stay and play whatsoever. It's a miracle that anyone would stick around this seen at all to be honest.

    The very important thing to note is that KPs in this game mode have been like a tsunami tidal wave. The players who were lucky enough to have been present during the first couple of era phases were able to benefit the community leniency to allow everyone time to learn. Organization and acceptance was easy back then. The players who played avidly began building KP and it rose up and up and up and those old veterans who had been playing from way back when rose up with it, riding the top of the tsunami tidal wave. It kept growing higher and taller and taller, and everyone underneath it got sucked up in it, losing all their footing & ground & basis for being able to participate. Now that we're in year 9, we can see the damage that the tsunami tidal wave has done. There are entire lobbies of players standing around in LFG or in guilds, trying to form squads, who refuse to play together, because of the walls & gates of hierarchal social stigma.

    This hierarchal social stigma is caused primarily by 3x things: 1) KPs - 2) DPS Meters - 3) Meta Sites & Sources of reference that make everyone even new players believe that it must be done correctly & perfectly or it isn't worth doing at all or that it can't be done.

    What makes the raid game mode difficult, isn't the boss fight content, it's battling the social stigma which makes participation unbelievably impractical in 2020. And before any old veterans disagree with me who have been riding the top of the tidal wave for so long, ask yourselves this: "If you were a new player now in 2020 who had no KPs who knew no one, would you even stick around to participate when joining a decent squad was always met with being kicked, guilds with any real training were so so hard to find and infrequent to be able to participate with, and all the vets tell you to go join your own squad and learn on your own, which ends up being impossible to do because no one will join your new player squad and there are no new player squads to join?"

    ~ Think it over a bit.

    We'll their the infrequent raid releases become a problem because a new release generates more new statics etc.

    Tbh I wouldn't ever have started raiding in this game if I didn't know people. But tbh that's also sort off the point. It requires social interaction.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited October 17, 2020

    @yann.1946 said:
    Tbh I wouldn't ever have started raiding in this game if I didn't know people. But tbh that's also sort off the point. It requires social interaction.

    Yes. Statics (especially statics with friends/guildies) are the best option for raid training. And LFGs are probably the worst.

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

    With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but without content locust padding a large part of that number).

    Just want to chime in here because this is a good example of what I've been saying.

    Yes, you're right in your comments here. But ask yourself: "Why is the learning process so tedious/painful that players wouldn't want to stick around?"

    Because most players are not willing to

    • completely change their playing style (like builds etc) just to adjust to a new content
    • adhere to a specific playing schedule (like designating several hours at predefined time for training every week).
    • be willing to spend a lot of time on golem/selftraining in order to improve their skill with their class
    • keep attempting the content over and over again, while constantly failing (and often not seeing immediate improvements).

    Additionally, theres one more point, that is also extremely damaging for static training teams - people advance at a different speed. Someone may need 2-3 attempts and an explanation (and some time spent on golem) to get to the "kill ready" state. Someone else may require many weeks of constantly wiping, and still being at a level where he is barely passable in a group of friends, but not good enough to join random squads (because everyone plays a bit differently, and even the same strat used by a different group may have some small differencies that may throw you off). And that's for a single boss. By the time your static group gets to the end of first wing, you may well find that the better players in said group are already pugging, or found themselves a different, better skilled static. Which, obviously, makes it faster for them, but slows down everyone else.

    Thus, while the players more naturally suited to the type of content and gameplay may get through training relatively easy, for others it will be a long, painful and tedious process. And the latter group is much bigger than the former.
    In other MMOs this can be partially skipped by the expedience of outgearing the content, but GW2 doesn't have that option.

    In the beginning of HoT when raids were first released, a progression began to happen which has led to what we have now:

    (cut for brevity)
    ~ Think it over a bit.

    I did think it out. But my experience tells me something different. I was getting through training in a relatively early part (when the number of LI asked for was still relatively low - at around ~50 or so), and i was doing that training throug statics with friends and guildies, which completely bypassed any LI/KP requirements, and allowed us to freely decide on what builds/setups/strategies to use.
    And here's the hint: it didn't make the training any easier. Our training group was still shedding the players right and left, because many just couldn't take the pressure. Training phase simply wasn't fun for any of us, and we just weren't able to progress through it fast enough before some players got too discouraged and quit.

    Hete's the second hint: that was not the only time i went through that. I ended up repeating the process a few times more later on. And, even though those attempts included several veterans to help the new players, which made the training progress faster and easier, the key point didn't change - still only a fraction of new people were able to get through that.

    I'll remind you, again, that at no point KP/LIs were ever an issue there. That the people that started all those trainings were already at above-average level as far as GW2 goes. And that all this took place in an extremely friendly environment. And yet still most players that tried to go through this gave up.

    The hard truth is that ultimately raids in GW2 failed, because they are simply suited to too small a group of players. It's the content itself that is not inclusive enough to be appealing to large enough number of players. KP/LI requirements are not a cause, but merely a byproduct of this.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Its not that bad

  • kamikharzeeh.8016kamikharzeeh.8016 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

    but i think he's partly correct, still.

    i even don't do the cm's for all the strike and drm things mostly, because it's just superrandom who you get into. i don't even try to explain to people who go "ping KP" that i'll have 20 times the apm they have as i'm only playing Wvw. still not done a single raid, but i can copy every build, as done on alacrene and straight done some CMs... half of the time goes pretty smooth, other times some people mess hard up.

    i can just adapt where i press which button to get which effect. just Wvw has no killproofs... cannot ping the 2k kills per week lol. kinda know from that how slow many people are... and since i have been in a strong gvg guild, i also know how minmaxed timing works.

    while technically it is true that this might be solveable by just joining a pvE guild. i still have most of my guild slots unused... one wvw guild, one dead pvE guild...

    but what made me ultimately saying "nope, not gonna happen" towards raids... u need to plan like 3h learntime for each try with newbie group, and i'd fall asleep during that... for what? for finally legendary armor? i have one yet from wvw, i just have to say i don't really see the big use.... my legendary gear does in fact not swap stats very often. the legy-legs actually are minstrel since over a year by now thaha.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2021

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

    but i think he's partly correct, still.

    He’s not. Veterans raiders are often teaching in the training guilds/discords. There’s even a training event going on if you go to Reddit.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 23, 2021

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

    but i think he's partly correct, still.

    He’s not. Veterans raiders are often teaching in the training guilds/discords. There’s even a training event going on if you go to Reddit.

    And that's where it is only partly correct. There are indeed training guilds and discords, and some veterans help new wound-be raiders trhrough those, or through in-guild trainings. It is also equally true that most veterans don't do that, and that the training capacity the community does have doesn't come even close to the actual needs for it.

    On the other hand, it's not like the lack of enough training options is the main issue here. Even if raiding community as a whole would be far more inclusive than it is now, it would not be enough - that's because it's the content itself that's too exclusive for majority of this game's players.

    So, partial truth. Some veterans are teaching new players. Those teaching opportunities are still very limited. But even if they weren't, it doesn't mean the community would start growing.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Ayrilana.1396Ayrilana.1396 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

    but i think he's partly correct, still.

    He’s not. Veterans raiders are often teaching in the training guilds/discords. There’s even a training event going on if you go to Reddit.

    And that's where it is only partly correct. There are indeed training guilds and discords, and some veterans help new wound-be raiders trhrough those, or through in-guild trainings. It is also equally true that most veterans don't do that, and that the training capacity the community does have doesn't come even close to the actual needs for it.

    Whether most veterans teach or not wasn’t what they were saying. Are the trainers on the training discord’s would inundated with requests that they are unable to help? Are players using those discords unable to get assistance? I don’t recall either of those mentioned so it’s a bit odd that you suddenly bring it up as a fact out of the blue.

    On the other hand, it's not like the lack of enough training options is the main issue here. Even if raiding community as a whole would be far more inclusive than it is now, it would not be enough - that's because it's the content itself that's too exclusive for majority of this game's players.

    Not related to what I said in my post although you do counter what the poster had said that the lack of training is why the raiding community doesn’t grow.

    So, partial truth. Some veterans are teaching new players. Those teaching opportunities are still very limited. But even if they weren't, it doesn't mean the community would start growing.

    Limited or not doesn’t really matter if the number of players actually seeking them is limited as well. Unless the existing options are unable to fulfill requests, you really cannot state that.

  • Hackuuna.4085Hackuuna.4085 Member ✭✭✭

    All the people I know that run fractal CMs regularly started out by doing it with friends or guildies. They eventually got the LNHB or DwD or KP to run solo and eventually just stopped playing together.

    In the end, you're going to need to do the same thing. For what it's worth, the majority of LNHB and DwD title holders I've played with are competent but nothing special. They run meta builds, and know what utility/boons/cc are useful and at what time. Your aim is to find equally competent people at the hours you play. LFG is only a starting point, since you're rolling the dice.

  • Aridon.8362Aridon.8362 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2021

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

    With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but without content locust padding a large part of that number).

    I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learn, sure you may die a lot during training runs, but it's really just people making mistakes, not that the raid is tedious. If it were tedious I'd hear people sobbing in tears on discord, but realistically most of these boss mechanics are not aggressively tedious to work with. I would add that Dhumm CM is probably the most aggressive I've seen.

    In contrast I AM THANKFUL, EXTREMELY THANKFUL, that it's not like wow where you need like 80 tries on a boss in mythic before you're able to kill it. I swear when I did that kitten I was ready to give up at try #40; still was fun though. The challenge is always the beauty.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 5, 2021

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learn

    For you. Rather obviously, the current raiders are mostly those that do find it okay. Because those that thought otherwise more often than not never became the raiders in the first place.

    If it were tedious I'd hear people sobbing in tears on discord

    You wouldn't, because we're talking about people that aren't raiding. They are not on your discord.

    In contrast I AM THANKFUL, EXTREMELY THANKFUL, that it's not like wow where you need like 80 tries on a boss in mythic before you're able to kill it. I swear when I did that kitten I was ready to give up at try #40; still was fun though. The challenge is always the beauty.

    Lol, that only underscores how different the experience of different players is.
    My anecdotal example is VG, which took our group over 2 months to kill for the first time (and another month before we were able to get to the point where replicating this "feat" became something expected). I don't know when we passed 40 tries, but i'm quite sure that it took us literally several hundred of those before we managed to get the boss on farm status. And that's even when we ignore all the tries that were too short to notice, because something went bad in the very beginning.

    And VG is not a "mythic difficulty" equivalent - it's the entry boss.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

    With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but without content locust padding a large part of that number).

    I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learn

    It's not that it's tedious to learn, it's that it's tedious to organize.

    The point of this thread was to point out that heavy KP expectation exasperates this problem in a low population community.

  • Sobx.1758Sobx.1758 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2021

    Soooooo we're repeating this thread?
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/119910/impossible-for-new-players-raids/

    It's not tedious to learn, if you want to learn and get into raiding you will. If you don't want to learn, then you have noone and nothing to blame.
    "KPs bad in low pop" -maybe, but then again maybe not. Seeing how all it does is providing the way to distinguish players that are experienced/inexperienced (not a fool-proof method, sure, but it's... something), I'm not sure not having kps would somehow make anything better. You'd get into raid party, instantly show you don't know what is happening and get kicked. You lost time and learned nothing, party lost time and need to "rng in another player". Not a fan of KP, but it seems that the problem isn't so much KP as it is player attitude. You want a new player squad? Make one. You want no kp req chill squad? Make one. You want training squad? Read up and make one or wait for others to make one. KPs don't really seem to be the problem, they just seem to be the thing that helps people get into their respective raiding squad according to their preferences. Unless your preference is just to get carried, then huh, no comments.

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learn

    For you. Rather obviously, the current raiders are mostly those that do find it okay. Because those that thought otherwise more often than not never became the raiders in the first place.

    If people aren't willing to learn, there's pretty much nothing you or anet can do to make them want to learn.

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @kamikharzeeh.8016 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    You’re assuming that the reason that the raiding community isn’t growing is because veteran players are not teaching new players every chance that they get. You’re wrong.

    but i think he's partly correct, still.

    He’s not. Veterans raiders are often teaching in the training guilds/discords. There’s even a training event going on if you go to Reddit.

    True, you're correct and the person you've answered to is just not. There's plenty of resources, guilds and even ""random"" squads that are willing to teach the players. Not 24/7? Sure. But nobody is bound to be some kind of "on duty teacher" because the new player isn't willing to read up or watch a video. Claiming that raids aren't growing because of veteran players is some... bold claim to make.

  • Vilin.8056Vilin.8056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 6, 2021

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

    In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

    Simply put:
    If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

    Even if not, here is what I did:
    I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

    The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

    No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

    Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

    I agree with you.
    It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

    People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

    Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

    I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

    Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

    It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

    So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

    Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

    At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

    The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

    All you have to imagine is this:
    Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

    This conversation has somehow deviated far far away from where it started.

    My OP post was never about player reluctance to take the time and effort to train someone new.

    My OP post was about experienced players discriminating against experienced players because someone has 9000 LIs and someone else only has 6000.

    A veteran wanting to get his clear done quickly on a night rather than taking hours and hours to train new players is certainly reasonable. But veterans discriminating against other veterans over some diminutive difference in skill value, could only be viewed as ridiculous at best.

    Big difference there.

    9000 and 6000 LIs? I guess making an unrealistic assumption to judge a community isn't ridiculous to you.

    Kill Proofs simply represent a means to bypass the trust barrier when strangers joining a squad for something that is only meant for players of a certain skill level. Even eliminating all KPs doesn't meant there won't be trust issues among different level of players, veteran players will still find a way to filter out undesired players in order to make the squad functional.

    Either way, I don't see experienced and skilled players with low KPs getting kicked often either, these people often communicate well, and know their role enough to convince the squad leader.

    And finally, what is the point in this thread?
    It's not going to convince any veteran Raid commanders because obviously you're not part of that crowd. Nor would anyone here to convince you otherwise. Continuously complaining in the forum wouldn't change the outcome nor the practice that's already been going on for years. It's what you CAN do inside the game that matters.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2021

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Soooooo we're repeating this thread?
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/119910/impossible-for-new-players-raids/

    It's not tedious to learn, if you want to learn and get into raiding you will. If you don't want to learn, then you have noone and nothing to blame.
    "KPs bad in low pop" -maybe, but then again maybe not. Seeing how all it does is providing the way to distinguish players that are experienced/inexperienced (not a fool-proof method, sure, but it's... something), I'm not sure not having kps would somehow make anything better. You'd get into raid party, instantly show you don't know what is happening and get kicked.

    ^ Exactly

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

    In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

    Simply put:
    If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

    Even if not, here is what I did:
    I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

    The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

    No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

    Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

    I agree with you.
    It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

    People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

    Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

    I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

    Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

    It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

    So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

    Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

    At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

    The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

    All you have to imagine is this:
    Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

    This conversation has somehow deviated far far away from where it started.

    My OP post was never about player reluctance to take the time and effort to train someone new.

    My OP post was about experienced players discriminating against experienced players because someone has 9000 LIs and someone else only has 6000.

    A veteran wanting to get his clear done quickly on a night rather than taking hours and hours to train new players is certainly reasonable. But veterans discriminating against other veterans over some diminutive difference in skill value, could only be viewed as ridiculous at best.

    Big difference there.

    9000 and 6000 LIs? I guess making an unrealistic assumption to judge a community isn't ridiculous to you.

    Kill Proofs simply represent a means to bypass the trust barrier when strangers joining a squad for something that is only meant for players of a certain skill level. Even eliminating all KPs doesn't meant there won't be trust issues among different level of players, veteran players will still find a way to filter out undesired players in order to make the squad functional.

    ^ Exactly

    So what you're looking at without KPs, is that everyone gets a chance to prove themselves at least once. And then players can remember each other by account/character name. This is a much more realistic gauge of actual efficiency level, regardless of how many KPs a person has or does not have or is willing to fake ping. Removing KPs entirely would usher in a short phase of the community reevaluating everyone from a true skill standpoint like this, rather than a KP number. Some players may find this to be a frustrating phase, but it would serve as a remedy for the lack of raid participation in general.

    Look, you've got 3 different types of players when it comes to raids, concerning level of efficiency. 1) You have experienced players who have been doing it for a long time. 2) You have good players who are willing to watch videos and try hard, who know they as an individual are good enough to learn quickly even though they are inexperienced. 3) You have players doing everything wrong, who won't ever get much done. Now what you have happening with a KP system such as LIs, is that the system is good at distinguishing player type 1 from 2 & 3, but it is not good at distinguishing player type 2 from 3. The player type 1 then builds a wall of KPs around itself, to block out type 2 and type 3, so that runs are faster and more efficient, which works great in higher population. In a higher population there are plenty of 1s to maintain a sound active player base inside of the KP fortress, and there are enough 2s showing up on the scene to find each other and eventually build other fortresses in other places. However, with low population the active numbers inside the type 1 fortress begin to dwindle, and rather than lower the KP gates to allow more in, for some reason the KP gate keeps getting higher. Outside of the gates, the type 2s are also in lower population, and it is becoming much much more difficult for 2s to form groups of 2s. So new 2s show up on the scene and can't get into the gates of the KP walls, so they are forced to play with 3s. When the 2s are forced to play with 3s, even though the 2s know the content and are ready to complete it to build KPs, they can't. Then the 2s end up deciding the raids are neither fun or worth the time to organize. <- This is because there aren't enough 2s to play with and the 1s rarely let them in either. And then the participation rates and population in general, dies off.

    Some of you are still not identifying this, and some of you are actively trying to fight this fact. The fact of the matter is, that wall of Kill Proofs and the eminence front that it is, in most cases prevents types 1s from bringing in type 2s, and it prevents type 2s from playing with type 1s so they maintain interest and stick around.

    This isn't a hypothesis. This is certainly what is happening and as much is obvious to anyone who takes the time to seriously evaluate it.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Soooooo we're repeating this thread?
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/119910/impossible-for-new-players-raids/

    It's not tedious to learn, if you want to learn and get into raiding you will. If you don't want to learn, then you have noone and nothing to blame.
    "KPs bad in low pop" -maybe, but then again maybe not. Seeing how all it does is providing the way to distinguish players that are experienced/inexperienced (not a fool-proof method, sure, but it's... something), I'm not sure not having kps would somehow make anything better. You'd get into raid party, instantly show you don't know what is happening and get kicked.

    ^ Exactly

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

    In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

    Simply put:
    If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

    Even if not, here is what I did:
    I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

    The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

    No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

    Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

    I agree with you.
    It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

    People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

    Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

    I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

    Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

    It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

    So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

    Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

    At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

    The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

    All you have to imagine is this:
    Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

    This conversation has somehow deviated far far away from where it started.

    My OP post was never about player reluctance to take the time and effort to train someone new.

    My OP post was about experienced players discriminating against experienced players because someone has 9000 LIs and someone else only has 6000.

    A veteran wanting to get his clear done quickly on a night rather than taking hours and hours to train new players is certainly reasonable. But veterans discriminating against other veterans over some diminutive difference in skill value, could only be viewed as ridiculous at best.

    Big difference there.

    9000 and 6000 LIs? I guess making an unrealistic assumption to judge a community isn't ridiculous to you.

    Kill Proofs simply represent a means to bypass the trust barrier when strangers joining a squad for something that is only meant for players of a certain skill level. Even eliminating all KPs doesn't meant there won't be trust issues among different level of players, veteran players will still find a way to filter out undesired players in order to make the squad functional.

    ^ Exactly

    So what you're looking at without KPs, is that everyone gets a chance to prove themselves at least once. And then players can remember each other by account/character name. This is a much more realistic gauge of actual efficiency level, regardless of how many KPs a person has or does not have or is willing to fake ping. Removing KPs entirely would usher in a short phase of the community reevaluating everyone from a true skill standpoint like this, rather than a KP number. Some players may find this to be a frustrating phase, but it would serve as a remedy for the lack of raid participation in general.

    Look, you've got 3 different types of players when it comes to raids, concerning level of efficiency. 1) You have experienced players who have been doing it for a long time. 2) You have good players who are willing to watch videos and try hard, who know they as an individual are good enough to learn quickly even though they are inexperienced. 3) You have players doing everything wrong, who won't ever get much done. Now what you have happening with a KP system such as LIs, is that the system is good at distinguishing player type 1 from 2 & 3, but it is not good at distinguishing player type 2 from 3. The player type 1 then builds a wall of KPs around itself, to block out type 2 and type 3, so that runs are faster and more efficient, which works great in higher population. In a higher population there are plenty of 1s to maintain a sound active player base inside of the KP fortress, and there are enough 2s showing up on the scene to find each other and eventually build other fortresses in other places. However, with low population the active numbers inside the type 1 fortress begin to dwindle, and rather than lower the KP gates to allow more in, for some reason the KP gate keeps getting higher. Outside of the gates, the type 2s are also in lower population, and it is becoming much much more difficult for 2s to form groups of 2s. So new 2s show up on the scene and can't get into the gates of the KP walls, so they are forced to play with 3s. When the 2s are forced to play with 3s, even though the 2s know the content and are ready to complete it to build KPs, they can't. Then the 2s end up deciding the raids are neither fun or worth the time to organize. <- This is because there aren't enough 2s to play with and the 1s rarely let them in either. And then the participation rates and population in general, dies off.

    Some of you are still not identifying this, and some of you are actively trying to fight this fact. The fact of the matter is, that wall of Kill Proofs and the eminence front that it is, in most cases prevents types 1s from bringing in type 2s, and it prevents type 2s from playing with type 1s so they maintain interest and stick around.

    This isn't a hypothesis. This is certainly what is happening and as much is obvious to anyone who takes the time to seriously evaluate it.

    The 2s can do what you say no kp will do.
    Group together use friend list to add good people and build up a big enough nr of 2 to play with right?

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2021

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Soooooo we're repeating this thread?
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/119910/impossible-for-new-players-raids/

    It's not tedious to learn, if you want to learn and get into raiding you will. If you don't want to learn, then you have noone and nothing to blame.
    "KPs bad in low pop" -maybe, but then again maybe not. Seeing how all it does is providing the way to distinguish players that are experienced/inexperienced (not a fool-proof method, sure, but it's... something), I'm not sure not having kps would somehow make anything better. You'd get into raid party, instantly show you don't know what is happening and get kicked.

    ^ Exactly

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

    In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

    Simply put:
    If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

    Even if not, here is what I did:
    I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

    The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

    No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

    Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

    I agree with you.
    It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

    People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

    Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

    I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

    Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

    It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

    So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

    Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

    At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

    The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

    All you have to imagine is this:
    Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

    This conversation has somehow deviated far far away from where it started.

    My OP post was never about player reluctance to take the time and effort to train someone new.

    My OP post was about experienced players discriminating against experienced players because someone has 9000 LIs and someone else only has 6000.

    A veteran wanting to get his clear done quickly on a night rather than taking hours and hours to train new players is certainly reasonable. But veterans discriminating against other veterans over some diminutive difference in skill value, could only be viewed as ridiculous at best.

    Big difference there.

    9000 and 6000 LIs? I guess making an unrealistic assumption to judge a community isn't ridiculous to you.

    Kill Proofs simply represent a means to bypass the trust barrier when strangers joining a squad for something that is only meant for players of a certain skill level. Even eliminating all KPs doesn't meant there won't be trust issues among different level of players, veteran players will still find a way to filter out undesired players in order to make the squad functional.

    ^ Exactly

    So what you're looking at without KPs, is that everyone gets a chance to prove themselves at least once. And then players can remember each other by account/character name. This is a much more realistic gauge of actual efficiency level, regardless of how many KPs a person has or does not have or is willing to fake ping. Removing KPs entirely would usher in a short phase of the community reevaluating everyone from a true skill standpoint like this, rather than a KP number. Some players may find this to be a frustrating phase, but it would serve as a remedy for the lack of raid participation in general.

    Look, you've got 3 different types of players when it comes to raids, concerning level of efficiency. 1) You have experienced players who have been doing it for a long time. 2) You have good players who are willing to watch videos and try hard, who know they as an individual are good enough to learn quickly even though they are inexperienced. 3) You have players doing everything wrong, who won't ever get much done. Now what you have happening with a KP system such as LIs, is that the system is good at distinguishing player type 1 from 2 & 3, but it is not good at distinguishing player type 2 from 3. The player type 1 then builds a wall of KPs around itself, to block out type 2 and type 3, so that runs are faster and more efficient, which works great in higher population. In a higher population there are plenty of 1s to maintain a sound active player base inside of the KP fortress, and there are enough 2s showing up on the scene to find each other and eventually build other fortresses in other places. However, with low population the active numbers inside the type 1 fortress begin to dwindle, and rather than lower the KP gates to allow more in, for some reason the KP gate keeps getting higher. Outside of the gates, the type 2s are also in lower population, and it is becoming much much more difficult for 2s to form groups of 2s. So new 2s show up on the scene and can't get into the gates of the KP walls, so they are forced to play with 3s. When the 2s are forced to play with 3s, even though the 2s know the content and are ready to complete it to build KPs, they can't. Then the 2s end up deciding the raids are neither fun or worth the time to organize. <- This is because there aren't enough 2s to play with and the 1s rarely let them in either. And then the participation rates and population in general, dies off.

    Some of you are still not identifying this, and some of you are actively trying to fight this fact. The fact of the matter is, that wall of Kill Proofs and the eminence front that it is, in most cases prevents types 1s from bringing in type 2s, and it prevents type 2s from playing with type 1s so they maintain interest and stick around.

    This isn't a hypothesis. This is certainly what is happening and as much is obvious to anyone who takes the time to seriously evaluate it.

    The 2s can do what you say no kp will do.
    Group together use friend list to add good people and build up a big enough nr of 2 to play with right?

    No, they can't.

    There aren't enough 2s to form groups of 2s. I've already stated this. And when the one or two guys who are 2s are forced to play with a bunch of 3s, they lose interest and leave the scene. This is what is happening. I repeat, there are not enough 2s to group into groups of 2s. This is what those inside of the KP fortress are not understanding.

    There is a newer thread here -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/119910/impossible-for-new-players-raids and many of these statements, including the OP statement, are 100% detailing what I have explained to you here, but in other words.

    Again, this is all happening because of the KP wall. 2s are ready to complete content but they can't because they are forced to play with 3s and there aren't enough 2s to go around. Then the 2s lose interest and leave the scene. If the 2s who are ready, were allowed inside the gates, they would have fun and would maintain interest and stay, adding to the population of participants who can complete content. But they will never be allowed into those walls because the rare 2 cannot complete content with groups of 3s, and thus he will never be able to build KP to show. Even if he does occasionally snag an LI here or there, it will take WAY TOO LONG if it is even possible at all, to ever build enough to be "Trusted" in better groups, for the raids to ever be worth his time.

    Click on that link I posted and read just the first page. Finest example on the internet of what I've explained in this thread.

    And then you get statements like this:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    The groups that you see requiring LI are those trying to do clears. They're not intended for new players as they would slow things down and even possibly cause a wipe. Those players are free to create their own LFG with specifications that all are welcome. There are also training guilds/discords which will help teach players new to raids.

    The thing that the people who dwell within the KP fortress are not understanding, is that there aren't enough 2s for other 2s to play with. And 2s can't get anything done in groups of all 3s, so they leave the scene and don't come back. And this whole thing about "Just join a raid guild" has become a meme blanket statement within this community. The reality of raid guilds is that you get to wait and sit around for 7 days until someone happens to be in the mood to form a party of five type 1s, so they can train five type 2s. And that's if a person is lucky enough to even get a spot in a training run or two for that week. And that's not even guaranteeing the run will even last longer than an hour.

    It simply is no where even in the ballpark of practical for new 2s on the scene to stick around. It simply isn't worth the time neither in fun or reward. And this problem is mainly due to the KP fortress community.

    Look, you can argue to preserve your KP wall, that's fine. Just understand what I am saying. What I am saying is that there will be more participation in raids if KPs were removed entirely. Whether the elite community likes it or not, whether their runs in the LFG become more difficult or not, it is true.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2021

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Sobx.1758 said:
    Soooooo we're repeating this thread?
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/119910/impossible-for-new-players-raids/

    It's not tedious to learn, if you want to learn and get into raiding you will. If you don't want to learn, then you have noone and nothing to blame.
    "KPs bad in low pop" -maybe, but then again maybe not. Seeing how all it does is providing the way to distinguish players that are experienced/inexperienced (not a fool-proof method, sure, but it's... something), I'm not sure not having kps would somehow make anything better. You'd get into raid party, instantly show you don't know what is happening and get kicked.

    ^ Exactly

    @Vilin.8056 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    No, other games invalidate old content allowing skill less players to have a sense of success by beating content which otherwise would be unbeatable to them at a later point. Or they introduce difficulty tiers which are barely above free loot, to make even the worst players feel accomplished.

    Nox100. I agree but you're moving what i was saying a different direction. The refresh helps make getting into groups easier.

    No, it doesn't. Players who did not properly tackle challenging content gain NOTHING with gear depreciation in other MMOs in regards to improving game skill wise. What they gain is the ability to out-gear old content and experience it.

    In that regard GW2 is actually superior. There is no required "cut-off" point one has to wait for. If you want to take on challenging content, you can start doing so at any point in time. Most often all it requires is a different approach to content in this game, often ideally paired with a more social approach and making contacts, but even that is only beneficial and not needed.

    Simply put:
    If you lacked the knowledge, experience and underlying understanding how to approach challenging content, you are/were in the exact same spot in every other MMO even after a new gear set.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Cyninja.2954 said:
    We have that in GW2. We have that in lower tier fractals. What we do not have is the gear deprecation and dumbing down of content to the same extent, though power creep is certainly present.

    If you want to be successful in other MMOs and take on challenging content, the approach there is exactly the same as here: join a guild, practice, improve, succeed.

    What % of guilds are doing progression runs?

    Irrelevant in that most players who want to get into CMs never even take that approach. They demand others take them "as is" via LFG groups. You are demanding just that in this very thread. I linked you youtube video of a fractal training guild member/leader. There obviously are discord and guilds.

    Even if not, here is what I did:
    I asked guildies in one of my more casual guilds which were already doing T4 semi regularly if they would be interested in-trying CMs. I did so AFTER actually spending a ton of time as duo with a friend in learning how to run CMs. I trained up 3 roster worth of guildies to be able to run CMs because eventually people don't have time or take a break from the game or fractals, etc.

    The point is: the key in succeeding at this content is playing with other players regularly.

    @Firebeard.1746 said:
    As for your comment on time, if nourishing the community around raiding is too time consuming then the game mode isn't sustainable.

    No, a game mode becomes unsustainable if the amount of players playing it drops to far or the developers decide that they have to move on due to technical reasons (dungeons were by far not underpopulated but a mess code wise) which is far more related to updates that content receives.

    Nourishing happens, just not the way you like it: between random parties all the time constantly. It happens in social groups of different degree most of the time.

    I agree with you.
    It seems to me people always seem to confuse being friendly with being social.

    People don't just stroll to random people playing boardgames and ask then to teach it to them.

    Actually, that is usually how people learn new board games or card games. You go somewhere and people are playing a game and they want you to play so they sit you down and teach you. I've been watching it happen for 35+ years.

    I have never once sat down and read a ruleset for monopoly or scrabble or poker or hearts, nor basketball or soccer or baseball. I learned these games because there were people around who wanted to get others involved in them, rather than push them away.

    Strangely enough, I can't help to imagen that people wanting to teach other people these games, must have something to do with why these games are undying and have stood the test of time. And as much can be said in contrast for why raids are dying Guild Wars 2, because people want to isolate instead of create community cohesion.

    It truly is an interesting difference in sociology to evaluate. The difference between how things work IRL vs. an online video game, and why.

    So, if I was now to make the case that every person you walk up to is unsocial because they might not be interested to teach you a board game right at that very moment in time, I'd have a strong argument?

    Yes, friends or family teach each other new board games. It's a social interaction. Or people go to comic/board game/trading card game shops and play and teach others. That's on their terms. That is akin to taking a guild member along or doing a training run.

    At no point in time does this happen though when the other party is not interested or lacking time.

    The differences between RL and online video game are not that different, IF one accounts for the fact that in RL you have spacial distance which manages interest and goals. In online games you do not since it's basically a binar state: online or offline.

    All you have to imagine is this:
    Players who are not in the mood to train others are basically not in your spacial vacinity. In real lifey, you wouldn't have met them at that point in time, aka they wouldn'thave shown up to that game night. If you want something from them, do so at the appropriate time and place, just as you would when interacting with them im real life. Easy peasy.

    This conversation has somehow deviated far far away from where it started.

    My OP post was never about player reluctance to take the time and effort to train someone new.

    My OP post was about experienced players discriminating against experienced players because someone has 9000 LIs and someone else only has 6000.

    A veteran wanting to get his clear done quickly on a night rather than taking hours and hours to train new players is certainly reasonable. But veterans discriminating against other veterans over some diminutive difference in skill value, could only be viewed as ridiculous at best.

    Big difference there.

    9000 and 6000 LIs? I guess making an unrealistic assumption to judge a community isn't ridiculous to you.

    Kill Proofs simply represent a means to bypass the trust barrier when strangers joining a squad for something that is only meant for players of a certain skill level. Even eliminating all KPs doesn't meant there won't be trust issues among different level of players, veteran players will still find a way to filter out undesired players in order to make the squad functional.

    ^ Exactly

    So what you're looking at without KPs, is that everyone gets a chance to prove themselves at least once. And then players can remember each other by account/character name. This is a much more realistic gauge of actual efficiency level, regardless of how many KPs a person has or does not have or is willing to fake ping. Removing KPs entirely would usher in a short phase of the community reevaluating everyone from a true skill standpoint like this, rather than a KP number. Some players may find this to be a frustrating phase, but it would serve as a remedy for the lack of raid participation in general.

    Look, you've got 3 different types of players when it comes to raids, concerning level of efficiency. 1) You have experienced players who have been doing it for a long time. 2) You have good players who are willing to watch videos and try hard, who know they as an individual are good enough to learn quickly even though they are inexperienced. 3) You have players doing everything wrong, who won't ever get much done. Now what you have happening with a KP system such as LIs, is that the system is good at distinguishing player type 1 from 2 & 3, but it is not good at distinguishing player type 2 from 3. The player type 1 then builds a wall of KPs around itself, to block out type 2 and type 3, so that runs are faster and more efficient, which works great in higher population. In a higher population there are plenty of 1s to maintain a sound active player base inside of the KP fortress, and there are enough 2s showing up on the scene to find each other and eventually build other fortresses in other places. However, with low population the active numbers inside the type 1 fortress begin to dwindle, and rather than lower the KP gates to allow more in, for some reason the KP gate keeps getting higher. Outside of the gates, the type 2s are also in lower population, and it is becoming much much more difficult for 2s to form groups of 2s. So new 2s show up on the scene and can't get into the gates of the KP walls, so they are forced to play with 3s. When the 2s are forced to play with 3s, even though the 2s know the content and are ready to complete it to build KPs, they can't. Then the 2s end up deciding the raids are neither fun or worth the time to organize. <- This is because there aren't enough 2s to play with and the 1s rarely let them in either. And then the participation rates and population in general, dies off.

    Some of you are still not identifying this, and some of you are actively trying to fight this fact. The fact of the matter is, that wall of Kill Proofs and the eminence front that it is, in most cases prevents types 1s from bringing in type 2s, and it prevents type 2s from playing with type 1s so they maintain interest and stick around.

    This isn't a hypothesis. This is certainly what is happening and as much is obvious to anyone who takes the time to seriously evaluate it.

    The 2s can do what you say no kp will do.
    Group together use friend list to add good people and build up a big enough nr of 2 to play with right?

    No, they can't.

    There aren't enough 2s to form groups of 2s. I've already stated this. And when the one or two guys who are 2s are forced to play with a bunch of 3s, they lose interest and leave the scene. This is what is happening. I repeat, there are not enough 2s to group into groups of 2s. This is what those inside of the KP fortress are not understanding.

    There is a newer thread here -> https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/119910/impossible-for-new-players-raids and many of these statements, including the OP statement, are 100% detailing what I have explained to you here, but in other words.

    Again, this is all happening because of the KP wall. 2s are ready to complete content but they can't because they are forced to play with 3s and there aren't enough 2s to go around. Then the 2s lose interest and leave the scene. If the 2s who are ready, were allowed inside the gates, they would have fun and would maintain interest and stay, adding to the population of participants who can complete content. But they will never be allowed into those walls because the rare 2 cannot complete content with groups of 3s, and thus he will never be able to build KP to show. Even if he does occasionally snag an LI here or there, it will take WAY TOO LONG if it is even possible at all, to ever build enough to be "Trusted" in better groups, for the raids to ever be worth his time.

    Click on that link I posted and read just the first page. Finest example on the internet of what I've explained in this thread.

    And then you get statements like this:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    The groups that you see requiring LI are those trying to do clears. They're not intended for new players as they would slow things down and even possibly cause a wipe. Those players are free to create their own LFG with specifications that all are welcome. There are also training guilds/discords which will help teach players new to raids.

    The thing that the people who dwell within the KP fortress are not understanding, is that there aren't enough 2s for other 2s to play with. And 2s can't get anything done in groups of all 3s, so they leave the scene and don't come back. And this whole thing about "Just join a raid guild" has become a meme blanket statement within this community. The reality of raid guilds is that you get to wait and sit around for 7 days until someone happens to be in the mood to form a party of five type 1s, so they can train five type 2s. And that's if a person is lucky enough to even get a spot in a training run or two for that week. And that's not even guaranteeing the run will even last longer than an hour.

    It simply is no where even in the ballpark of practical for new 2s on the scene to stick around. It simply isn't worth the time neither in fun or reward. And this problem is mainly due to the KP fortress community.

    Look, you can argue to preserve your KP wall, that's fine. Just understand what I am saying. What I am saying is that there will be more participation in raids if KPs were removed entirely. Whether the elite community likes it or not, whether their runs in the LFG become more difficult or not, it is true.

    Remove KPs or even LIs and new players just hit another wall, if there is a wall that is. Titles, weapon skins, CM boxes, KP website and what not.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Now what you have happening with a KP system such as LIs, is that the system is good at distinguishing player type 1 from 2 & 3, but it is not good at distinguishing player type 2 from 3.

    and

    2s are ready to complete content but they can't because they are forced to play with 3s and there aren't enough 2s to go around.

    How do you propose we differentiate between 2s and 3s? Because KP, as you say, is used to separate 1s from 2s and 3s. But how can we put 1s and 2s on the same side, while making sure 3s remain on the other side? Removing KP won't accomplish this.

    Let's say there is no KP and players don't find something else to gate others, everyone is welcome. How will the situation of the 2s really change?
    Let's say, for the sake of argument, that out of 10 players, 2 are 2s and 8 are 3s. Without LI they will all try to join the squads formed for Raids. Given how statistics work, 2s won't get any easier into groups, the spots will be reserved by the 3s. This will lead to frustration for the 1s, as they won't be able to find competenet players and resort to kicking and actively monitoring anyone they invite, frustration by the 3s, which will be kicked and come here and post about toxicity, and frustration by the 2s themselves because they won't be able to get a spot anyway due to them being a minority overshadowed by the 3s.

    Eventually, after kicking 4-5 3s, the Raid squads will invite one of the 2s to replace them, but that's all gonna be a colossal waste of time for everyone involved. Or simply "suck it up" and finish the Raid with a few 3s anyway, many squads can finish the encounters with less than 10, which could, again, lead to neglect towards the 2s.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

    With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but without content locust padding a large part of that number).

    I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learn

    It's not that it's tedious to learn, it's that it's tedious to organize.

    The point of this thread was to point out that heavy KP expectation exasperates this problem in a low population community.

    How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ? Did you know that most raiders create statics and never bother with LFG unless they miss someone ? And how to fill the gap of the person that is missing ? I know some "elite" veteran players that don't even save their KP as they got their static and don't need to prove anything to their friends. However someone that wants to join that group to replace him on his occasional abscence should prove his ability to play that one time in his place somehow. And that is when KP comes in handy. It is only useful to players that don't have statics. Without KP they won't be even finding any groups if they don't want to integrate into statics. Because in that case what will happen is that statics will just recruit additional reserve players to fill the occasional gaps. What KP does is saving time. Please stop trashing raiders already. We have got enough hate on us already. We are normal people like you that want to enjoy our games, we don't want to barrier anyone because we are evil, just please make your own groups with no requirements if it is your thing and be happy, we can't gate you from doing that, can we ?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2021

    @Sobx.1758 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:
    I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learn

    For you. Rather obviously, the current raiders are mostly those that do find it okay. Because those that thought otherwise more often than not never became the raiders in the first place.

    If people aren't willing to learn, there's pretty much nothing you or anet can do to make them want to learn.

    If you took the effort to read what i said before, instead of quoting it out, you'd see that i do agree with this.

    To quote my earlier statement:

    The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end.

    So, basically, it's what you said, but with a small (but not unimportant) addition:
    "If people aren't willing to learn the content as it is now, there's pretty much nothing you or anet can do to make them want to learn, without making changes to the content itself".

    @Armen.1483 said:
    How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ?

    Well, that's what the devs told us. It's low enough they don't feel justified to make more raid content anymore, at the very least.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Armen.1483Armen.1483 Member ✭✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Armen.1483 said:
    How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ?

    Well, that's what the devs told us. It's low enough they don't feel justified to make more raid content anymore, at the very least.

    Any **official **quotes ? What I have read is that they have abandonned raids to concentrate into LW for the moment, but no reasons were given. And the "low cummunity" part was assumed by the players. And even if that were true, that would not be the cause, but the concequence.

  • Ryuk.6840Ryuk.6840 Member ✭✭
    edited February 7, 2021

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

    With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but without content locust padding a large part of that number).

    I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learn

    It's not that it's tedious to learn, it's that it's tedious to organize.

    The point of this thread was to point out that heavy KP expectation exasperates this problem in a low population community.

    How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ? Did you know that most raiders create statics and never bother with LFG unless they miss someone ? And how to fill the gap of the person that is missing ? I know some "elite" veteran players that don't even save their KP as they got their static and don't need to prove anything to their friends. However someone that wants to join that group to replace him on his occasional abscence should prove his ability to play that one time in his place somehow. And that is when KP comes in handy. It is only useful to players that don't have statics. Without KP they won't be even finding any groups if they don't want to integrate into statics. Because in that case what will happen is that statics will just recruit additional reserve players to fill the occasional gaps. What KP does is saving time. Please stop trashing raiders already. We have got enough hate on us already. We are normal people like you that want to enjoy our games, we don't want to barrier anyone because we are evil, just please make your own groups with no requirements if it is your thing and be happy, we can't gate you from doing that, can we ?

    "Don't trash us we are normal players"
    "Its their fault , for not having enough KP...- not working enough... to join us :P"
    https://www.thebeaverton.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/rich-guys-wealthy-snob-men-cigars-800x563.jpg

    The company should reward , with the Partner program the Training Guilds , instead
    They should also half the rewards , forcing the Raid community to Raid twice per week + their alts .
    While the Training Guilds will need one

    Or joining LFG a representative from that Guild , he cannot type anything in that description , welcoming anyone + rewards are increased +difficulty is reduced
    At 50% Hp of the last boss , the damage reduction buff is removed >wipping>getting the lesser reward >having a taste for the boss >try harder next time or see the cutscene on youtube

    15

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 7, 2021

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Armen.1483 said:
    How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ?

    Well, that's what the devs told us. It's low enough they don't feel justified to make more raid content anymore, at the very least.

    Any **official **quotes ?

    Sure.
    https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/97028/a-message-from-andrew-gray/p1

    Andrew flat out says here that raids attract small audience, and that this small audience is a challenge to devs wanting to support the content.

    Notice also, that when devs say things on forums that players might not like, they prefer to be as subtle as possible and not close any doors if they absolutely don't have to. So, if a dev on GW2 forum says that "the biggest challenge in creating more (raids) is the small audience they attract", you can safely interpret it as trying to nicely say "there's just not enough of you for us to justify making more raids".
    This is of course my interpretation - if you want to interpret abovementioned quotes as anything but an admission that raid community is low enough that GW2 devs are uncomfortable with it, then be my guest, but i'd have to say you would be grasping at straws.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    Now what you have happening with a KP system such as LIs, is that the system is good at distinguishing player type 1 from 2 & 3, but it is not good at distinguishing player type 2 from 3.

    and

    2s are ready to complete content but they can't because they are forced to play with 3s and there aren't enough 2s to go around.

    How do you propose we differentiate between 2s and 3s? Because KP, as you say, is used to separate 1s from 2s and 3s. But how can we put 1s and 2s on the same side, while making sure 3s remain on the other side? Removing KP won't accomplish this.

    Yes it would. For every reason I already stated. I already explained how it differentiates between 2s and 3s, through raw natural organic evaluation, in the same way I would judge if guys were good or bad at basketball, only after I showed up on a court and played with them. This way everyone gets a chance to at least play.

    Some of you guys are still missing the point here. I'm not stating that this is a better system. I am stating that it would increase raid participation rates. I'm stating that current population & participation rates are so low because players are waiting waaaay too long in line before getting to take a ride, and this is because of KPs.

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

    @Aridon.8362 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Firebeard.1746 said:

    @Ayrilana.1396 said:
    There’s a difference between players offering to teach you and expecting all of them to teach you.

    Board games are also very different as players are not driven for rewards compared to those doing raids/fractals. Progress for board/card games is nonexistent in the sense that you’re simply playing the game whereas progress in fractals/raids can be slowed or even halted with having new players.

    I don't expect all of them to teach me. The teaching doesn't happen enough. If I'm wrong the raiding community would grow. And I'm completely fine with being wrong.

    The raid community doesn't grow not because there's not enough players wanting to teach, or not enough opportunities to learn. It's because learning process itself is too tedious/painful for a majority of players, which results in not enough players being willing to stick with it to the end. Which is a byproduct of both content difficulty and the skill discrepancies within community. And those are a byproduct of the combat/skill/traits/gear system design Anet decided on.

    With whole game as it is, and the content being as it is, Raids being sustainable would require GW2 having way, way bigger playerbase than it has. Possibly even bigger than it ever had (, well, apart from maybe first months of the game, but without content locust padding a large part of that number).

    I disagree with you. It's not that tedious to learn

    It's not that it's tedious to learn, it's that it's tedious to organize.

    The point of this thread was to point out that heavy KP expectation exasperates this problem in a low population community.

    How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ?

    Oh please

    @Armen.1483 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Armen.1483 said:
    How do you know that the gw2 raiding community is low ?

    Well, that's what the devs told us. It's low enough they don't feel justified to make more raid content anymore, at the very least.

    Any **official **quotes ? What I have read is that they have abandonned raids to concentrate into LW for the moment, but no reasons were given. And the "low cummunity" part was assumed by the players. And even if that were true, that would not be the cause, but the concequence.

    You don't need official statements or a world renowned scientific researcher to explain the obvious.

  • sokeenoppa.5384sokeenoppa.5384 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Getting into raids requires you to have exotic gear and joining in a raid guild that i see posting their recry messages multiple times during the day ingame, facebook, Reddit etc.
    Players that want to raid can already do it easily with or without KPs.

    I'll have two number 9s, a number 9 large, a number 6 with extra dip, a number 7, two number 45s, one with cheese, and a large soda.

  • You can't change people's behaviour, no matter what barriers you remove for people to audit other players with there will always be something they can use to exclude those with less experience. You are never going to be able to alter the culture of gaming to fix a problem that exists in all mmo's when concerned with more difficult content.

    Now if you personally think that kp is a bad thing then ignore it, make no kp groups and move on with your life. If you can only play in really off-peak hours on an mmo then low playerbase and difficulty forming groups is also something you need to accept. Even WoW is very difficult to form groups for anything at 2-3 am.

    I feel like people keep telling the same anecdotal type stories when it comes to KP or raids in general and it's always to be some kind of "gotcha" moment to try to call out the entire community for not behaving the way you want.

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Trevor Boyer.6524 said:
    This way everyone gets a chance to at least play.

    And this is what I pointed out to you. Your "2s" will still have a very low chance of playing anyway. It will go like this:
    Let's pretend we have a team of 9 people looking for their 10th. Let's also pretend the team won't find another way to filter players (we all know they would, but let's play along shall we?) so, as you say, every gets a chance.

    Step 1: Open a "no requirements" LFG
    Step 2: We have 2 possible outcomes here:
    Step 2a: Team gets one of the 2s, team succeeds, everyone is happy. Huray!
    or
    Step 2b: Team gets one of the 3s. Now this splits into 2 possible outcomes again:
    Step 3a: Team succeeds anyway. The "3" manages to hide their incompetence through seer luck (no important mechanic used on them) or they weren't as much of a "3" after all.
    or
    Step 3b: Team fails. The "3" will get the blame anyway (even if it wasn't their fault), will be kicked, and the team will go back to step one.

    Since we already know that 3s will be the overwhelming majority, I don't think anyone can dispute this, we can see just how low the chances of a "2" will be in getting in a team anyway.

    through raw natural organic evaluation

    This is called a gigantic waste of time for everyone involved. You expect a team to "open up", get any rando out there, with the highest possibility, as already explained, of them being a useless player, "evaluate" them and then what? Create a gigantic block list of all the 3s you meet, so you don't have to evaluate them again, and expand your friend list with all the 2s you meet so you can invite them again later?

    Some of you guys are still missing the point here. I'm not stating that this is a better system. I am stating that it would increase raid participation rates. I'm stating that current population & participation rates are so low because players are waiting waaaay too long in line before getting to take a ride, and this is because of KPs.

    It wouldn't increase raid participation rates though. That will depend on how much time those making the teams would be willing to waste every time they want to Raid. At some point they will simply give up and either stop raiding altogether, or try to raid only if they have a full team. And that's all assuming that the teams won't try to find another way to exclude/filter other players so as not to waste their time.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @Psykewne.3025 said:
    You can't change people's behaviour, no matter what barriers you remove

    Are you sure though? Or are you so caught up in your current perspective that you have not well excavated the truths of another?

    What you said in your response is like saying:

    "Adding or removing a button in-game that allowed players to automatically DC each other, would not make a difference in the amount of players who were automatically DCing each other." <- and this couldn't be further from the truth because having a code that does this is entirely different than not having a code that does this.

  • Trevor Boyer.6524Trevor Boyer.6524 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 8, 2021

    @maddoctor.2738

    You've somehow missed the point of everything I have said entirely, and yet in the same breath with your own example given, you have proven my point that it would up raid participation rates by allowing everyone to have a chance again.

    ~ Anyways, I've said enough. Let this thread die and stop necro'ing it.