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Why did we get an xpac weapon that does nothing?

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  • XxsdgxX.8109XxsdgxX.8109 Member ✭✭✭

    Hammer is at least fun. Good vs mobs and AFK people, trash tier vs good players.
    The 1200 range helps alot so yeah Renegade should have gotten Long Bow at the very least but whatever... dont expect anything to be done, only a full redesign could save it.

  • Nath Forge Tempete.1645Nath Forge Tempete.1645 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 10, 2017

    Well 8k / s on shortbow while I do 16k /s on mace/axe (on a random 5 men fractal team) on the same gear... yeah it needs some improvement ... (since it has only one CC and is very slow)

  • Carighan.6758Carighan.6758 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @otto.5684 said:
    Tell me any scenario where it is good to use. Needs improvement is understatement of the year.

    Ah, the good old "It's broken" -debate. Been there since the dawn of multiplayer games.

    Face it: The shortbow works. You kill enemies with it. Yes, in PvP it puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Yes, in speedruns it will not be optimal. And yet you will have 0 issues camping it 100% in open world PvE. On a power build.

    Of course, that speaks more for how much the damage mudflation from HoT and PoF have made PvE meaningless as a balance scenario, but hey, can't truly complain in that case. If balance has no meaningful impact, the upside is that imbalance doesn't have one, either.

    Outside of PVP. Which, as we know, only 30% play as their main game mode. So that's not exactly priority #1, really.

  • @otto.5684 said:

    @Lucifer.7289 said:

    @Flauvious.6195 said:

    @Lahmia.2193 said:
    Because Rev was missing a ranged condition weapon. Yes it needs improving but stop being a drama queen about it. It's not that bad.

    It is though. Even if you land all of its slow clunky abilities its damage is terrible.

    The damage is pretty good on SB, it's the slow god awful animations that kill it for Spvp/wvw. SB number 2/3 hit like a truck with condi, 7 instant torrment stacks/bleeds ect. Number 5 knock down is pretty nice as well.

    Good luck landing Sb 3 or 4 against anything. Even 2 is bugged. Add lack of mobility, blocks or evades, Sb is the epitome of garbage weapon.

    Yeah, I was agreeing with you it sucks for pvp/wvw because the slow animations, can't hit anything. I was just stating the damage on SB is actually pretty nice.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:
    I saw Justine's videos kicking heads using a glass cannon hammer build for roaming, and yesterday Byrevanent was using hammer + sword + shield in matches with double Scourge in the enemy team at PvP with great effect.

    Odd you mention Hammer Rev Roaming, because i killed like 4 today with ease. Hammer is VERY easy to counter and you would have to be fighting someone AFK or someone know doesnt know how to counter Hammer to win. The moment you go melee, they are forced into swapping weapon because it loses all its threat.

    I personally don't play hammer, but short bow has nothing remotely comparable to the degree of usefulness the hammer provides:

    Not to mention that in guild vs guild scrims hammer Revenant was (is?) one of the main force multipliers in terms of dps (both sustained and burst). You probably killed raid heralds going to assemble with their fellow clan members. Revenant's raid WvW builds can't do a kitten without being holding by the hand for a Guardian. Anyway, as I said, I do roam with sword + axe + staf, I won't change any of them to a hammer, but I would chose hammer over short bow any time of the day, including condi builds, because at least prodives 50% uptime projectile negation, an evade and some nice cc/breackbar tools.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    @Carighan.6758 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Tell me any scenario where it is good to use. Needs improvement is understatement of the year.

    Ah, the good old "It's broken" -debate. Been there since the dawn of multiplayer games.

    Face it: The shortbow works. You kill enemies with it. Yes, in PvP it puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Yes, in speedruns it will not be optimal. And yet you will have 0 issues camping it 100% in open world PvE. On a power build.

    Of course, that speaks more for how much the damage mudflation from HoT and PoF have made PvE meaningless as a balance scenario, but hey, can't truly complain in that case. If balance has no meaningful impact, the upside is that imbalance doesn't have one, either.

    Outside of PVP. Which, as we know, only 30% play as their main game mode. So that's not exactly priority #1, really.

    I wonder how long it will take for people to realize that Anet isn't balancing because of weapon performance in specific parts of the game, so the "Sbow sucks outside of openworld PVE" really means very little ... I would say that as a running concern for PVP/WvW, it's not about if a particular weapon/skill/trait is good, it's about if there is at least one build (ideally more than that) that has decent performance. People using PVP/WvW performance to justify a weapon buff don't really get it.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Jack Skywalker.5674Jack Skywalker.5674 Member ✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    Anet gives no -f--u--c--k--s- about PvP. This has been the case since HoT,where after Beta it became obvious to most PvE'rs that their main role in raids is to play the buff bot.
    Renegade is PvE "viable"only.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Carighan.6758 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Tell me any scenario where it is good to use. Needs improvement is understatement of the year.

    Ah, the good old "It's broken" -debate. Been there since the dawn of multiplayer games.

    Face it: The shortbow works. You kill enemies with it. Yes, in PvP it puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Yes, in speedruns it will not be optimal. And yet you will have 0 issues camping it 100% in open world PvE. On a power build.

    Of course, that speaks more for how much the damage mudflation from HoT and PoF have made PvE meaningless as a balance scenario, but hey, can't truly complain in that case. If balance has no meaningful impact, the upside is that imbalance doesn't have one, either.

    Outside of PVP. Which, as we know, only 30% play as their main game mode. So that's not exactly priority #1, really.

    I wonder how long it will take for people to realize that Anet isn't balancing because of weapon performance in specific parts of the game, so the "Sbow sucks outside of openworld PVE" really means very little ... I would say that as a running concern for PVP/WvW, it's not about if a particular weapon/skill/trait is good, it's about if there is at least one build (ideally more than that) that has decent performance. People using PVP/WvW performance to justify a weapon buff don't really get it.

    Well, renegade does not have a viable sPvP build either. But even in open world PvE I would not consider Sb function. The main two damage skills cannot reliably hit and the third one is a bit bugged. Only the aa works properly.

    Honestly, out of all PoF elite weapons rev Sb is the worst by a large margin. So is renegade, which is nothing more that a multiplier buff to what was already function raid PvE build.

  • Pre PoF,most people complained that Hammer AA was slow, ignoring the fact that hammer AA combo'ed with hammer 4 can cause said AA to restore some of our health. Also I never tested to see is SB 5 can deal breakbar damage (because I do not own PoF) - in the instance that it does,well it's a very easy to target ranged break bar damage (hammer ones have aoe target,that make's them harder to aim in my oppinion vs click boss and press 5).

  • @Buran.3796 said:
    I personally don't play hammer, but short bow has nothing remotely comparable to the degree of usefulness the hammer provides:

    Against anyone that knows how to play. Hammer offers nothing. Get Melee. Boom it loses most of its damage. It will do well against bad players which luckily is what Anet have targeted this game towards now. They have shown through FORCED bad balance that promotes builds over skill that Anet doesnt care what so ever about having SKILLED players. They would happily lose all the good players for bad players if it meant more Gem store purchases.

    They know they CAN'T have the game being skill based because too much of the player base rely on it NOT being balanced for their builds to carry them to victory.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Carighan.6758 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Tell me any scenario where it is good to use. Needs improvement is understatement of the year.

    Ah, the good old "It's broken" -debate. Been there since the dawn of multiplayer games.

    Face it: The shortbow works. You kill enemies with it. Yes, in PvP it puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Yes, in speedruns it will not be optimal. And yet you will have 0 issues camping it 100% in open world PvE. On a power build.

    Of course, that speaks more for how much the damage mudflation from HoT and PoF have made PvE meaningless as a balance scenario, but hey, can't truly complain in that case. If balance has no meaningful impact, the upside is that imbalance doesn't have one, either.

    Outside of PVP. Which, as we know, only 30% play as their main game mode. So that's not exactly priority #1, really.

    I wonder how long it will take for people to realize that Anet isn't balancing because of weapon performance in specific parts of the game, so the "Sbow sucks outside of openworld PVE" really means very little ... I would say that as a running concern for PVP/WvW, it's not about if a particular weapon/skill/trait is good, it's about if there is at least one build (ideally more than that) that has decent performance. People using PVP/WvW performance to justify a weapon buff don't really get it.

    Well, renegade does not have a viable sPvP build either. But even in open world PvE I would not consider Sb function. The main two damage skills cannot reliably hit and the third one is a bit bugged. Only the aa works properly.

    Honestly, out of all PoF elite weapons rev Sb is the worst by a large margin. So is renegade, which is nothing more that a multiplier buff to what was already function raid PvE build.

    It's like I'm talking to a wall here ... SB not being good is not a reason Anet seems to respond to because their balancing efforts are not based only on performance, no more than any other weapon ingame that isn't good is also not the focus of some balancing effort. It has a purpose; maybe that purpose isn't too great, but it still has that purpose. Every class has a 'worst' weapon. It's simply a consequence of having 'best' ones.

    Revenant not having a decent PVP build ... a more significant, but not relevant to the reason SB exists and how it performs; whether that's true I think is debatable and not in this thread. People are trying to magnify the complexity to justify their ideas about how important it is to address this problem. It's not complicated though ... SB is a ranged condi weapon, this is it's purpose and it does what it's intended to do. Whether it does it good or bad, seems completely secondary.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @otto.5684 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @Carighan.6758 said:

    @otto.5684 said:
    Tell me any scenario where it is good to use. Needs improvement is understatement of the year.

    Ah, the good old "It's broken" -debate. Been there since the dawn of multiplayer games.

    Face it: The shortbow works. You kill enemies with it. Yes, in PvP it puts you at a competitive disadvantage. Yes, in speedruns it will not be optimal. And yet you will have 0 issues camping it 100% in open world PvE. On a power build.

    Of course, that speaks more for how much the damage mudflation from HoT and PoF have made PvE meaningless as a balance scenario, but hey, can't truly complain in that case. If balance has no meaningful impact, the upside is that imbalance doesn't have one, either.

    Outside of PVP. Which, as we know, only 30% play as their main game mode. So that's not exactly priority #1, really.

    I wonder how long it will take for people to realize that Anet isn't balancing because of weapon performance in specific parts of the game, so the "Sbow sucks outside of openworld PVE" really means very little ... I would say that as a running concern for PVP/WvW, it's not about if a particular weapon/skill/trait is good, it's about if there is at least one build (ideally more than that) that has decent performance. People using PVP/WvW performance to justify a weapon buff don't really get it.

    Well, renegade does not have a viable sPvP build either. But even in open world PvE I would not consider Sb function. The main two damage skills cannot reliably hit and the third one is a bit bugged. Only the aa works properly.

    Honestly, out of all PoF elite weapons rev Sb is the worst by a large margin. So is renegade, which is nothing more that a multiplier buff to what was already function raid PvE build.

    It's like I'm talking to a wall here ... SB not being good is not a reason Anet seems to respond to because their balancing efforts are not based only on performance, no more than any other weapon ingame that isn't good is also not the focus of some balancing effort. It has a purpose; maybe that purpose isn't too great, but it still has that purpose. Every class has a 'worst' weapon. It's simply a consequence of having 'best' ones.

    Revenant not having a decent PVP build ... a more significant, but not relevant to the reason SB exists and how it performs; whether that's true I think is debatable and not in this thread. People are trying to magnify the complexity to justify their ideas about how important it is to address this problem. It's not complicated though ... SB is a ranged condi weapon, this is it's purpose and it does what it's intended to do. Whether it does it good or bad, seems completely secondary.

    Yes you are talking to a wall, it is the wall of whatever box you are talking to yourself inside.

    And, by the way thanks for letting us know that SB is a ranged condi ranged weapon. That was a brilliant revelation.

    The whole point of this thread is to comment on SB efficiency, and how it impacts renegade effectiveness as a whole. If you do not have anything useful to add then do not post to this thread. However coming here to argue that other posters should not leave feedback that you do not agree with, is the definition of trolling. Also, please do not try to dictate how feedback should be provided. I (and everyone posted here) have bought the game, and have the right to leave feedback in whatever format we like. Anet does not have a prescribed a specific format to leave feedback regarding class balance. Unless you are on the dev team, I do not give a flying kitten about how you think feedback should be provided.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    Apparently, based on the posts of most posters in this thread, letting you guys know that SB is a ranged condi weapons WAS a significantly useful revelation. After all, it seems this wasn't clear enough to gleen from the skills it has for many of you.

    Frankly, it's seems that it's terribly useful to point out that Anet isn't rushing to buff weapons that aren't highly performing (or lowest either), though I would think that after 5 years, people would be aware of the obvious facts. No one is saying how you should give feedback ... with the exception of Anet of course; Consider it more of a PSA that if you actually CARE about the state of something, you try to do a better job at giving feedback than supporting the "OMG this weapon doesn't do anything" threads. Sensationalism is a terrible way to express what you think is wrong with something.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Halikus.1406Halikus.1406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    Frankly, it's terribly useful to point out that Anet isn't rushing to buff weapons that aren't highly performing, though i would think that after 5 years, people would be aware of the obvious.

    Please, someone tell that I didn't just read this...

    That's why I usually don't bother answering to forums too much. rofl

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    @Halikus.1406 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    buff weapons that aren't highly performing

    Please, someone tell that I didn't just read this...

    That's why I usually don't bother answering to forums too much. rofl

    If you don't think that's useful, you obviously missed the previous posts in this thread ... seems that a few people have the wrong idea about how Anet prioritizes their efforts.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Halikus.1406Halikus.1406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    I could point everything wrong with your "arguments" on previous posts and make an essay like I usually do but I really don't feel like diving into a pointless discussion with someone that says "SB is condi ranged weapon" as main argument. Feedback can be given in any format that people want it to, of course some times it is done with hot tempers but it illustrates the frustation of the person and that's something to be taken into account.

    It is anet's job to filter the good from the bad ones, not yours. So unless you're one of their employees you have no rights to say how people express themselves here.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    No one is attempting to filter anything; If people want to put their efforts forward by taking the kitten out of Anet, let them do it. Those are the easiest threads for them to ignore as feedback and the most entertaining. It's too bad people don't care enough to actually put some thinking into their complains other than single line quips. The problem is when those ideas are probed deeper to get more meaningful content, it's regularly the case that it's as simply a shallow idea as it appeared in the first place.

    No, SB is not the best weapon, but to pretend it's got no purpose and doesn't do anything is rather meaningless. I'm sure there is a deeper reason than 'it's bad' to have Anet look at the SB ... so what is it ye unhappy Revenant nation? ... or is "doesn't do anything" the best you got? To be fair, if the argument of "doesn't do anything" is acceptable to people, then "SB is a condition ranged weapon" is addressing the same level of thoughtfulness the thread deserves.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Halikus.1406Halikus.1406 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    1) Don't talk about people putting something into their complains when you only came here so far to charge at them without adding anything useful for the discussion. So if you don't know how, or don't want, to contribute for the discussion like a civilized person you can simply do like me and stay out of it watching.

    2) The point here is not if the weapon has a purpose or not, the problem is if it can perform well that given role or not. And right now SB doesn't do anything significantly useful at all to be taken into accoun't in any game mode.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 11, 2017

    I would disagree with that statement. As ANOTHER poster already observed, there was a desire by the community to have a ranged condi weapon to compliment the Mace ... the SB is it ... if I recall correctly, it wasn't even out of a PVP/WvW interest.

    Significantly useful (a vague enough term to begin with) speaks to performance; you haven't been paying attention to the game for the last 5 years if you think Anet gives us a plethora of weapons because they are all achieving some players subjective assessment of being significantly useful.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Set.7461Set.7461 Member ✭✭✭

    Feedback for SB(and Renegade)was given since beta weekend. They've ignored it all. The main issue since PoF was the PvP effectiveness of SB/Renegade. Instead we got a horizontal offhand sword change and some arbitrary number tweaks. These "single line quips" are a reflection of what we got from the devs. We gave lots of meaningful feedback. They gave us a whooping 1 sec extra bleed duration to SB2! Not to mention the other HUGE buffs we were asking for. Like SB5 getting .5 extra seconds of SLOW! I'll probably cream my pants if I list them all. SB and Renegade OP now. /s

    This forum have always been skewed towards PvP/WvW. The PvErs are on reddit posting their kitten art or memes. So, yes. Shortbow has a purpose. You can use it to AFK kill an Awakened NPC a whole second faster. Much DEEPS. So purposeful. Feedback well received. Thanks ANET!

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I would argue that feedback != Anet taking action, so be careful when you make that correlation. See, when the feedback is mostly threads like THIS, you can't, at all, be surprised it's ignored. Players need to step up and call these threads out, EVEN if you think SBow isn't good. These threads have a NEGATIVE impact in Anet using our experience to help them out.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Set.7461Set.7461 Member ✭✭✭

    Considering all the constructive posts we had on PoF beta/launch, are you surprised? There's no sugar-coating a bad thing. And you know things are bad when OTHER classes, who usually cry about classes besides their main, complains about the performance of SB/Renegade.

    Most of the posters I saw during launch have stopped making the types of constructive threads you are gatekeeping for. And they do exist. You're just new here. What you're seeing is the novelty of an expansion waning and thief/necro/etc. mains trying out Renegade. They're here posting complaints that's not new, just new to them.

    It IS a positive thing. If thieves, necros, guardians, etc. come here saying how underwhelming shortbow/renegade is, it shows that we're not just delusional whiners. It is legit bad.

  • Obtena, how can you say a forum discussion isn't a place to make discussion of discontent? What is so wrong with this thread? is it that many people agree on something that you necessarily don't? say something of substance, please. And you know nothing of the subject matter it seems so how is your input any more valid? The thing is that the rev community, at least the vocal portion, wanted a ranged condi weapon that was going to provide a use. Just because the weapon applies conditions doesn't make it a useful condition weapon. The fact that the mace/axe combo can hit at 600-900 range and does good damage already makes it so the shortbow doesn't provide anything the mace/axe can. You can argue that all the skills on the sb are 900 range thus giving you more options to use at long range and being more of a ranged threat, but it runs into a problem because the skills are clunky, hard to hit with, and provides no methods to keep combat at range. So now we clarified that shortbow does abysmal damage to any moving target, doesn't provide utility, and has no defensive capabilities, I ask why would one take it? Even on a condi build, hammer could prove more useful just for the fact that it is 1200 range and you could use a couple skills before the enemy closes in on you. So when people say that shortbow is useless, serves no purpose, and has no place in pretty much any game mode, they aren't wrong. There have been many threads discussing this so the issues are known, but it's important to keep bringing up unresolved issues if we ever hope to get change. And yes, I think the community as a whole has come to the conclusion of the uselessness of the sb, and the complete lacklusterness, or should I say boringness, of the renegade spec as a whole.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:
    I personally don't play hammer, but short bow has nothing remotely comparable to the degree of usefulness the hammer provides:

    Against anyone that knows how to play. Hammer offers nothing. Get Melee. Boom it loses most of its damage. It will do well against bad players which luckily is what Anet have targeted this game towards now. They have shown through FORCED bad balance that promotes builds over skill that Anet doesnt care what so ever about having SKILLED players. They would happily lose all the good players for bad players if it meant more Gem store purchases.

    Maybe you should take a look at Bryvanent streams on twitch, because He's beating necros with hammer at platinum tiers in season 9... I known, I known: is not legend tier, but happens that NA legend tier doesn't exist because the population is so low that there's less than 10 dudes at that rank. Soo... albeit sub-optimal for the task, currently hammer can beat very good necro players (and some others)if used smartly, in part due He doesn't pair it with staff but with sword + shield, which means that still can kill things in mele.

  • Buran.3796Buran.3796 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I would disagree with that statement. As ANOTHER poster already observed, there was a desire by the community to have a ranged condi weapon to compliment the Mace ... the SB is it ... if I recall correctly, it wasn't even out of a PVP/WvW interest.

    Uhhh... I was one of the most vocal beggars pleading for a condi ranged weapon even before the PoF leaks that happened in January of this year. The reason was clear: condi Revenant was useles in both PvP and WvW roaming due lacked mobility enough to keep the pace of Thieves, Mesmers, Rangers and Warriors, so they were able kite at range and kill us effortlesly without the condi Rev being able to put any condi pressure over then.

    Then the shortbow was known and I was happy: "they heard us".

    Finally the beta arrived... and I had to throw up. The weapon wasn't only sub par in terms of performance (pure damage), and lacked any usable and meaningful tool for player vs player interaction (blocks, evades, movement skills... ) but also was so clunky in the way it releases it's sub par skills even in PvE (with all the random obstacles which prevents any use of #3, #4 and #5) that I entirely stopped to run both the short bow, Kalla and even the traitline in less than two weeks after the PoF release. I mean, Wooden Potatoes in the beta review of the Renegade fell in downed state two times fighting vs a bot in the Hall of Mist. The beta also cleared my mind because before the expansion was looking at the possibility to craft Chuka & Champawat, so being the spec and its weapon so dysmally bad for PvP/WvW helped me to save ~3.000 gold coins.

    Was also a mind opener because showed me how clueless the devs seems to be about the competitive gamemodes. I mean: you see Harada playing it's own Tekken games and you known that He knowns what's doing. I can't remember the lastest time I saw an ANet programmer playing WvW/PvP, much less at high level playing.

  • otto.5684otto.5684 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Buran.3796 said:

    @ArmageddonAsh.6430 said:

    @Buran.3796 said:
    I personally don't play hammer, but short bow has nothing remotely comparable to the degree of usefulness the hammer provides:

    Against anyone that knows how to play. Hammer offers nothing. Get Melee. Boom it loses most of its damage. It will do well against bad players which luckily is what Anet have targeted this game towards now. They have shown through FORCED bad balance that promotes builds over skill that Anet doesnt care what so ever about having SKILLED players. They would happily lose all the good players for bad players if it meant more Gem store purchases.

    Maybe you should take a look at Bryvanent streams on twitch, because He's beating necros with hammer at platinum tiers in season 9... I known, I known: is not legend tier, but happens that NA legend tier doesn't exist because the population is so low that there's less than 10 dudes at that rank. Soo... albeit sub-optimal for the task, currently hammer can beat very good necro players (and some others)if used smartly, in part due He doesn't pair it with staff but with sword + shield, which means that still can kill things in mele.

    A bit off the main topic, but my experience as well that hammer does really good against scourges. It is not ideal solo, but if you keep your distance in a team fight, it plays like deadeye, dealing more damage with no setup and better mobility.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:
    I would argue that feedback != Anet taking action, so be careful when you make that correlation. See, when the feedback is mostly threads like THIS, you can't, at all, be surprised it's ignored. Players need to step up and call these threads out, EVEN if you think SBow isn't good. These threads have a NEGATIVE impact in Anet using our experience to help them out.

    Aaaaand he does it again...what a surprise.

  • Renegade is only useful if you don't take the Renegade-specific weapon and don't really use the Renegade-specific legend. That goes double in WvW and triple in PvP. Of all the PoF Elite Specs it's widely regarded as the worst because the only kitten good it does is Kalla's Fervor benefiting DPS of older builds and the F2-4 skills adding two decent support skills and a really weird to aim AoE burst. I mean just look at all the Elite specs from PoF and you'll see just how much Renegade falls short of all of them.
    Firebrand, Spellbreaker, and Scourge are so popular I don't even need to bring up what makes each so good, Holosmith, Deadeye, and Mirage have huge DPS increases with close range damage, range damage, and condi damage with their weapons and skills respectively, and Soulbeast and Weaver have huge class changing features that give them a lot of flexibility and add in a good number of alternative strategies. Meanwhile little Renegade has lower DPS when using almost anything related to Kalla's Legend besides group-share bleeds, has one of the worst trait lines in the game where only the Grandmaster traits dictate anything about the build (oh yeah two traits that activate when gaining Fury but Kalla's only access to fury is when you hit an enemy that's already halfway defeated), and was gifted with the awesome aspect of having AOEs with healthbars.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Obtena, how can you say a forum discussion isn't a place to make discussion of discontent?

    No, I'm saying that people should take a little more effort to present their discontent in a way that is discussable to begin with. For some reason, we get the opposite:

    "Yo Anet, Rev sucks, FIX IT" ... literally

    If you honestly care about how Anet regards this class and the collective feedback/opinion we have of it, threads like this should be getting SLAMMED into submission.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • JayAction.9056JayAction.9056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2017

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Obtena, how can you say a forum discussion isn't a place to make discussion of discontent?

    No, I'm saying that people should take a little more effort to present their discontent in a way that is discussable to begin with. For some reason, we get the opposite:

    "Yo Anet, Rev sucks, FIX IT" ... literally

    If you honestly care about how Anet regards this class and the collective feedback/opinion we have of it, threads like this should be getting SLAMMED into submission.

    There is nothing else to be said. Renegade and short bow are bad enough that 5 minutes on the pvp dummy or playing it against a semi decent PVE target would give you an idea of how bad it is.

    I think it's weird that it even need be brought to attention. It's been months.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @JayAction.9056 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Obtena, how can you say a forum discussion isn't a place to make discussion of discontent?

    No, I'm saying that people should take a little more effort to present their discontent in a way that is discussable to begin with. For some reason, we get the opposite:

    "Yo Anet, Rev sucks, FIX IT" ... literally

    If you honestly care about how Anet regards this class and the collective feedback/opinion we have of it, threads like this should be getting SLAMMED into submission.

    There is nothing else to be said. Renegade and short bow are bad enough that 5 minutes on the pvp dummy or playing it against a semi decent PVE target would give you an idea of how bad it is.

    I think it's weird that if even need be brought to attention. It's been months.

    How bad it is isn't relevant. I know that's a completely foreign concept to you but I can only point to the many places in this game where 'bad' stuff exists.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • @Obtena.7952 said:

    @JayAction.9056 said:

    @Obtena.7952 said:

    @ScottBroChill.3254 said:
    Obtena, how can you say a forum discussion isn't a place to make discussion of discontent?

    No, I'm saying that people should take a little more effort to present their discontent in a way that is discussable to begin with. For some reason, we get the opposite:

    "Yo Anet, Rev sucks, FIX IT" ... literally

    If you honestly care about how Anet regards this class and the collective feedback/opinion we have of it, threads like this should be getting SLAMMED into submission.

    There is nothing else to be said. Renegade and short bow are bad enough that 5 minutes on the pvp dummy or playing it against a semi decent PVE target would give you an idea of how bad it is.

    I think it's weird that if even need be brought to attention. It's been months.

    How bad it is isn't relevant. I know that's a completely foreign concept to you but I can only point to the many places in this game where 'bad' stuff exists.

    I don't think there is anybody NA that is doing better on rev than me. Hasn't been since like season 1. It obviously needs some buffs. Whatever else you are saying to justify it being bad is just smoke.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2017

    Sure it needs buffs ... but it being a bad weapon isn't the reason for it. Being bad is just a consequence of other weapons being good. That's intended by the design of the game; it can't BE any other way.

    Also, just stating the obvious, in a most sarcastic way doesn't help anyone here figure out what needs to be done ... Again "REV BAD, ... FIX NOW" ... so insightful. I don't take issue with what you are saying (though it's pretty thin on content to begin with), it's HOW you are saying it ... or more clearly, what you aren't saying.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • JayAction.9056JayAction.9056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2017

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    Sure it needs buffs ... but it being a bad weapon isn't the reason for it. Being bad is just a consequence of other weapons being good. That's intended by the design of the game; it can't BE any other way.

    Also, just stating the obvious, in a most sarcastic way doesn't help anyone here figure out what needs to be done ... Again "REV BAD, ... FIX NOW" ... so insightful.

    You look like an idiot straight up. You say it needs buffs but the reason for needing a buff is not because it's bad? For what other reason would something need buffs?

    Brah you live in the twilight zone.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 12, 2017

    You're the one making a thread about why SB is a bad weapon that does nothing ... and you say I'm the idiot because I recognize Anet has deeper reasons for changing how weapons work? Wow ... yes, you have this all figured out with your BRAH thread ... Anet is just stampeding to buff every single thing in this game ... just because BAD. I can't wait to see the results.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • It's a ranged condi weapon.

    It really should've been baseline though, since this essentially locks non-renegades out of range condi.

    Perhaps the bow needs some more tweaking, but it's by no means pointless. You just don't seem to like its role.

  • Kaizok.7839Kaizok.7839 Member ✭✭
    edited December 13, 2017

    I like the SB (I don't take mace + axe anymore). But, I must admit that it's a bad weapon.
    AA is ok.
    Skill 2 : there 1, or sometimes, 2 arrows that miss. Ground is problematic and can nullify the attack.
    Skill 3 : is the hardest skill to land on this entire game. A single step make you completely waste the skill. And like skill 2, ground and walls are a problem.
    Skill : 4 is slow, so you need to use #5 just before to knockdown your enemy or you will miss. And you can't use it without line of sight.
    Skill : 5 is decent, i like it.

    So, the skills have real problems. We don't have any evade or movement ability like sb of others class.
    And this is just for the weapon, Kalla have a lot of problems too.

  • @Obtena.7952 said:
    Sure it needs buffs ... but it being a bad weapon isn't the reason for it. Being bad is just a consequence of other weapons being good. That's intended by the design of the game; it can't BE any other way. [...]

    This only holds true to a certain degree in game design.

    A power gap is perfectly reasonable and something that will always happen in any game that gives you multiple options to build a character in. And that is totally fine as long as it doesn't go into extremes. If there is a difference in power between different talents/skills/classes that is more than~10-20% it will kick playstyles from 'not optimal, but viable' to 'not competitive' and people will generally want to avoid them; outliers (in either direction) need to be brought in line.

    If you read up on game design and look at change logs from other games over multiple patch cycles you can usually see this happen, especially in MMOs. If it doesn't, you tend to end up with "non-options": playstyles that exist on paper, but in real situations are so terrible in comparison to the alternatives that only die-hard fans will use them for their flair. This generally leads to severe under representation, which in turn will make developers less likely to spend a lot of time on the issue - making it even less likely to get said playstyles brought to a viable level.

    TL;DR Yes, there will always be 'best' and 'worst' weapons, but in good game design the power gap between them cannot be literal country miles.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2017

    I'm not here to argue that SB isn't good or how wide the good/bad gap is. I've already said it's not a good weapon and I think it needs to be improved ... and I have no doubt that even if it takes years, changes are made. Therefore, there isn't any real value in just expressing how bad something is. My whole point is that the OP thinks he's doing some massive service for us by simply pointing this obvious fact out in his sensational, sarcastic manner. As a community, we need to demand more of ourselves if we expect Anet to take us seriously. Honestly, how does an Anet dev come to the forum and read this thread (and many others like it) and think they are getting good value for their time? Threads like this are a major disservice to anyone who cares enough to make thoughtful feedback. It's like adding a drop of the most pure water to a cesspool. Frankly, the OP doesn't care about the class enough to do this. He cares enough about making himself cool by making jokes though ... real helpful.

    I'm ticked off that people who seemingly care don't take the effort to give good feedback and CONTRIBUTE to threads such as this. Do yourselves a favour ... ignore this thread and post thoughtful ideas here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/20380/how-can-the-shortbow-be-improved#latest

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

  • Milan.9035Milan.9035 Member ✭✭✭

    @Obtena.7952 said:
    I'm not here to argue that SB isn't good or how wide the good/bad gap is. I've already said it's not a good weapon and I think it needs to be improved ... and I have no doubt that even if it takes years, changes are made. Therefore, there isn't any real value in just expressing how bad something is. My whole point is that the OP thinks he's doing some massive service for us by simply pointing this obvious fact out in his sensational, sarcastic manner. As a community, we need to demand more of ourselves if we expect Anet to take us seriously. Honestly, how does an Anet dev come to the forum and read this thread (and many others like it) and think they are getting good value for their time? Threads like this are a major disservice to anyone who cares enough to make thoughtful feedback. It's like adding a drop of the most pure water to a cesspool. Frankly, the OP doesn't care about the class enough to do this. He cares enough about making himself cool by making jokes though ... real helpful.

    I'm ticked off that people who seemingly care don't take the effort to give good feedback and CONTRIBUTE to threads such as this. Do yourselves a favour ... ignore this thread and post thoughtful ideas here: https://en-forum.guildwars2.com/discussion/20380/how-can-the-shortbow-be-improved#latest

    Hahaha, this dude is funny

    Anyways there is too much wrong with renegade. This is a aspec that should have been stopped at the brainstorming session. Now its too late to make it useable in pvp or wvw. Lets move on.

  • Aninika.6819Aninika.6819 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 13, 2017

    I get Obtena's point but the way you're arguing it is just as bad as the people you're complaining about. SB is in a bad place, and I don't have any constructive criticism for it because I won't touch it, but Anet will probably fix it next balance patch because their balance style is fixing under used traits/skills/weapons (which is why sword OH got changes that no one asked for). If no one, or barely anyone, is using SB, they'll fix it so that more people start using it.

  • @Aninika.6819 said:
    but Anet will probably fix it next balance patch because their balance style is fixing under used traits/skills/weapons (which is why sword OH got changes that no one asked for). If no one, or barely anyone, is using SB, they'll fix it so that more people start using it.

    No one using Renegade. Even people who use it (~1/50 revenants) don't use Kalla skill line - cause it is a pinnacle of mental impotence.
    It was clear when Renegade was in beta, and still nothing was changed.
    Nothing at all. So I would not rely on Anet fast reaction on .. anything. To be honest - I don't think that they will change anything. I just hope that person who is responsible for Renegade (especially utility skills) would not be allowed to ruin anything again.
    Next global update, new profession, something like that, in several years - could be.

  • JayAction.9056JayAction.9056 Member ✭✭✭
    edited December 14, 2017

    @Garr.1823 said:

    @Aninika.6819 said:
    but Anet will probably fix it next balance patch because their balance style is fixing under used traits/skills/weapons (which is why sword OH got changes that no one asked for). If no one, or barely anyone, is using SB, they'll fix it so that more people start using it.

    No one using Renegade. Even people who use it (~1/50 revenants) don't use Kalla skill line - cause it is a pinnacle of mental impotence.
    It was clear when Renegade was in beta, and still nothing was changed.
    Nothing at all. So I would not rely on Anet fast reaction on .. anything. To be honest - I don't think that they will change anything. I just hope that person who is responsible for Renegade (especially utility skills) would not be allowed to ruin anything again.
    Next global update, new profession, something like that, in several years - could be.

    im with it, co sign