New playable race & new weapon types limitation talk

Hello everyone,

I was talking with a friend of mine about the good ol' topic of having a new playable race and weapon types in Gw2.I think that it would be possible to have them if they are not retroactive, what I mean by that is that you get a new race but it starts with a few armors (and obviously all outfits) and has no access to the old armor sets. Same with the weapons, you get a new weapon type but that weapon type doesn't get added to the older sets.This would mean a lot less work on the character/weapon team, less problems with armor clipping and so on.Also this topic wuld be applied to the base story. Not being able to play the Gw2 vanilla and expansions that came before the release of the race or being able to play them but with just a few tweaks to justify the introduction of a new race.

My question is, would you be fine with this?
Personally I would be totally fine with those limitations.I'm just saying this if we ever get new races or weapons I'm not saying that we will get them. I heard already the people that think that they prefer not to have a new race or that they think it's too much work for arenanet, thia is not the point of this post, so if that is your reply you can save yourself some time and avoid this thread :D

I'm just saying this if we ever get new races or weapons I'm not saying that we will get them. I heard already the people that think that they prefer not to have a new race or that they think it's too much work for arenanet, thia is not the point of this post, so if that is your reply you can save yourself some time and avoid this thread :D

If you only want people who agree with you to post then it’s not a discussion but a mutual congratulation society.

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

I'm just saying this if we ever get new races or weapons I'm not saying that we will get them. I heard already the people that think that they prefer not to have a new race or that they think it's too much work for arenanet, thia is not the point of this post, so if that is your reply you can save yourself some time and avoid this thread :D

I'm sure if it were a subject you were defending, you'd probably support the notion of avoiding unnecessary retreading of old arguments (the "beating a dead horse" argument), similar to the very post you present here (because you and I already know the OP has no power to regulate who can or cannot post on the thread but go ahead and retread that old argument).

As for the OP, I've presented that avenue for new races, even going so far as to limit them to ONLY outfits upon release until more armor is created for the game going forward. The problem is that no one wants to discuss what compromises they are willing to make for certain content. It's weird, because usually ideas have to have compromises to fit in with the current environment. People will just argue why something won't happen or present their preferred content they want focus on.

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

I'm just saying this if we ever get new races or weapons I'm not saying that we will get them. I heard already the people that think that they prefer not to have a new race or that they think it's too much work for arenanet, thia is not the point of this post, so if that is your reply you can save yourself some time and avoid this thread :D

I want the conversation to be focused on the topic, that is would you be fine with it or not, pros and cons not hearing the same old answers.

@Leo G.4501 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

I'm just saying this if we ever get new races or weapons I'm not saying that we will get them. I heard already the people that think that they prefer not to have a new race or that they think it's too much work for arenanet, thia is not the point of this post, so if that is your reply you can save yourself some time and avoid this thread :D

Well, you sir are actually adding to the topic, saying that you would be fine even with just outfits.Imo just outfits would make the new race feel like being closed behind 2 walls, the first would be buying the expansion that introduces the race and the second wall being the fact that if you don't own many outfits you are very limited.I would be fine with 4 or 5 armors to start with though. I think that it would be smart for anet, if they ever implement something like that, to fit all the outfits to the new race, otherwise people will complain about not being able to use the stuff that they paid.

The Devs would have to retro-fit Legendary Armor, as well, as I don't think players would be happy with not being able to use their Legendary Armor(s).Also, create animations for each Mount, and Gliders. Maybe, emotes, as well; especially if emotes are used in upcoming content, as in the past.I don't know how much extra time it would add to each new content release, having to develop for 2 extra character-types. Extra VO, extra NPCs, extra armors, etc. Some players aren't satisfied with how long content takes to develop, already.

Would they add all the dialogue retroactively too? Like having only jumping/dodging and hit grunts at first?

@Dantert.1803 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:

I'm just saying this if we ever get new races or weapons I'm not saying that we will get them. I heard already the people that think that they prefer not to have a new race or that they think it's too much work for arenanet, thia is not the point of this post, so if that is your reply you can save yourself some time and avoid this thread :D

Well, the way I would prefer it, it wouldn't just be 1 race made available but 2-3. If it was a must, I'd definitely see an expansion release with some in-game reward opening up one of the new races to play while the other 1 (2) would be unlocked via purchase in the gem store (or even more outrageously, as an account upgrade only purchasable with cash). The race unlocked in the expansion would be given a handful of armors (likely cultural armor) and an outfit for that race only. IMO, it's not about what walls its closed behind but rather if such a cosmetic option can be monitized to fund its creation. The other (2) race(s) would be the ones mainly blocked into outfits only as its something that is for people who want to spend money on cosmetics.

The other issues crop up when you go beyond the cosmetic aspects of it (IMO, posters overblow the whole part about all the work with the armor and refitting and what not...because they could simply skip that...). I'd personally want to also have a personal story go with a new race (not THE personal story like we have now but race specific ones that act as an intro for that character into Tyria). Voiceover work, I also feel people overblow considering it's usually not writing a new string of dialog but just using a different voice actor. I'm sure all the work involved isn't nothing but its hardly the hurdle people paint it to be.

with the story i'd be fine if they do it right (that is if they give us a small "personal" story on how we join the current story and not pull a season 1 and say "just imagine it happened") but since most ppl want a new race for fashion wars i doubt they'd like that their favorite skin isn't available.

also instead of saying "only reply if you agree" say it's an "what if" scenario.

People keep coming up with ways to shoehorn new races in by making “second class races” that don’t have all the features of the current races. Considering that according to gw2efficiency the percent of players that make and play non human races trail behind the human race by a substantial amount, a race that will inevitably be seen as a budget cut race will be played even less, making the new races a loss and the money spent on it would be better spent on other features. A new race that has only a handful of armors will be a race that isn’t played much in a game where the endgame is collecting cosmetics.

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:People keep coming up with ways to shoehorn new races in by making “second class races” that don’t have all the features of the current races. Considering that according to gw2efficiency the percent of players that make and play non human races trail behind the human race by a substantial amount, a race that will inevitably be seen as a budget cut race will be played even less, making the new races a loss and the money spent on it would be better spent on other features. A new race that has only a handful of armors will be a race that isn’t played much in a game where the endgame is collecting cosmetics.

And all of players that play non human races still outnumber the players that only play human. Whether an option is considered "second class" or not is beside the point when they are grasping at any opportunity for custom options to even request battle tonics. What you call "shoehorn" others call "brainstorm". Beside the argument that something will be more work, any argument beyond that is merely being averse to work...and unless you want your product to have less work put into it, what's the point of pointing out something will be "more work".

I also find it amusing how people take this whole "the endgame is collecting cosmetics" thing seriously. People only say that to justify GW2 having no endgame. People play the game because its fun, not because of some "endgame". The whole game is "endgame".

@Leo G.4501 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:People keep coming up with ways to shoehorn new races in by making “second class races” that don’t have all the features of the current races. Considering that according to gw2efficiency the

percent of players that make and play non human races

trail behind the human race by a substantial amount, a race that will inevitably be seen as a budget cut race will be played even less, making the new races a loss and the money spent on it would be better spent on other features. A new race that has only a handful of armors will be a race that isn’t played much in a game where the endgame is collecting cosmetics.

Less say your new race is as popular as the Charr. That’s 12% of characters and 9% of playtime. Or maybe as popular as sylvari. 16% of characters, 15% of playtime. Do you actually think ANet can make money on a feature that attracts so few customers?

But will it be as popular as one of the older races? Maybe there will be an initial burst of enthusiasm but how about afterwards when the limitations are obvious. They’ll be dropped in favor of a race with full access to the wardrobe, that can play any story line, that has a unique voice and not a generic voice, or doesn’t have any one of the limitations and reduced features that have been suggested on various threads.

On top of that will be the reaction of the player base that buys a new race then finds out that it’s lesser in what it can do or wear. Do you actually think that the players won’t consider a bare bones race a cash grab and lazy design on ANet’s part? That they won’t complain bitterly about the limitations of their new toy? If you do then you haven’t seen the threads complaining about clipping on Charr armor.

I can just see the advertisements selling these bare bones races based on the suggestions made in previous threads. (They’ll have to bring up the limitations you know)

“New races! With fewer features than before! 3 whole sets of armor per profession (that’s total armor guys. but don’t worry, you can buy outfits for your new race to wear). No access to personal story. Generic voice acting. Only $X, plus $10 for a new character slot. Buy now!”

Naw. I’ll pass. Thnks.

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:People keep coming up with ways to shoehorn new races in by making “second class races” that don’t have all the features of the current races. Considering that according to gw2efficiency the

percent of players that make and play non human races

trail behind the human race by a substantial amount, a race that will inevitably be seen as a budget cut race will be played even less, making the new races a loss and the money spent on it would be better spent on other features. A new race that has only a handful of armors will be a race that isn’t played much in a game where the endgame is collecting cosmetics.

Compared to what?

I can create a scenario where it can make money off of such a feature. The basis of your argument stems from statistical comparison. Could they make more money from investing in a new race + custom armor and outfits vs making only armor for human models? Or are you asking could they make more money just belting out skins and not trying any other options?

On top of that will be the reaction of the player base that buys a new race then finds out that it’s lesser in what it can do or wear. Do you actually think that the players won’t consider a bare bones race a cash grab and lazy design on ANet’s part? That they won’t complain bitterly about the limitations of their new toy? If you do then you haven’t seen the threads complaining about clipping on Charr armor.

Again, compared to what? Compared to just buying outfits and waiting for armor? Compared to tonics?

“New races! With fewer features than before! 3 whole sets of armor per profession (that’s total armor guys. but don’t worry, you can buy outfits for your new race to wear). No access to personal story. Generic voice acting. Only $X, plus $10 for a new character slot. Buy now!”

Naw. I’ll pass. Thnks.

And this is the same old argument without any actual consideration for what an idea could be. That's pretty typical for posts in these parts, really. I mean, you don't have to like every idea you come across but it's another thing to go out of your way to demean an idea for that reason. At this point in the game's lifecycle, I suppose its to be expected.

No, I don’t think these new races threads have considered the problems or considered the consequences of the fixes they propose. I don’t think people will be happy with races that (from this or from previous threads) start at max level and can’t be leveled by playing. Don’t have access to story lines. Have minimal cosmetic options. Don’t have a unique voice. Don’t have unique race specific animations, or any other subtractions from current races that they think will fix problems.

People don’t want to buy something that is less than what they’re used to. If they get a new race then they’re going to expect it to be equal to the old races in all its features. A new race that is bare bones will be a disappointment to the average player and will not be worth the costs to produce and the costs to maintain. If it doesn’t share the armor with another race then it will slow down new armor production on top of everything else.

So thanks for the suggestion, but no thanks. I prefer ANet put its money towards features that will benefit a larger proportion of the players.

If we look at what makes a new expansion in other games, most of the time is new races and or new races. That is an easy way to get new people involved in the game.In other games that added new races there are limitations, the pros are that you get something unique, a new look for a character and a chunk of story(most of the time just a few missions or map area) and lore. Not so many people complained about the revenant limitations, the fact that the revenant had little to no development for the underwater combat or that you couldn't change skills, those were big limitations, add to that the cheap introduction of the new class... the community was happy to have a new option, same goes for new races and weapon types.

@Dantert.1803 said:If we look at what makes a new expansion in other games, most of the time is new races and or new races. That is an easy way to get new people involved in the game.In other games that added new races there are limitations, the pros are that you get something unique, a new look for a character and a chunk of story(most of the time just a few missions or map area) and lore. Not so many people complained about the revenant limitations, the fact that the revenant had little to no development for the underwater combat or that you couldn't change skills, those were big limitations, add to that the cheap introduction of the new class... the community was happy to have a new option, same goes for new races and weapon types.

you might have wanted to use another example then rev

@derd.6413 said:

@Dantert.1803 said:If we look at what makes a new expansion in other games, most of the time is new races and or new races. That is an easy way to get new people involved in the game.In other games that added new races there are limitations, the pros are that you get something unique, a new look for a character and a chunk of story(most of the time just a few missions or map area) and lore. Not so many people complained about the revenant limitations, the fact that the revenant had little to no development for the underwater combat or that you couldn't change skills, those were big limitations, add to that the cheap introduction of the new class... the community was happy to have a new option, same goes for new races and weapon types.

^

Yeah that didn’t help his argument. According to gw2efficiency, the Revenant is second to last in numbers that play that profession and last (3.47%) in hours played.

If the races are limited in any way, there is no point to them. I do t want something forced into the game, just to take away from one aspect, or set a precedent that it is okay for ANet to half ass aspects of their development. I'm not against new races, I would definitely make one, but I am totally against shoddy, lazy work.

I see you dont want people to come in with the same "no" responses as in the past, but the answers given have merit, and substance to them. "Its too expensive and time consuming" is a valid reason to say no. "Limit the races" is not a valid reason for doing something. If all of the yes people want real discussion, they need to come up with a real solution to implementing new races, ot just "do it because it would be cool." If you work out the kinks, and come up with a logical, coherent implementation, then you can write off the people that explain why it won't be done every time this topic comes up.

If ArenaNet wanted to go the cheap route, they'd just put an undead skin on a human, morph the voice and it'd be as simple as that. A cheap and popular race they could probably get away with is the original elf-like versions of the Sylvari. Chances are there will never be a new race however, because ArenaNet wants to be unique, so only something like the Tengu would be added, but unique races are also the most expensive to implement.

The trick with elite specializations is that they allow them to reuse the current weapons indefinitely. If they were going add one however, chances are they'd start with spears so they could reuse the underwater skins and animations.

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:No, I don’t think these new races threads have considered the problems or considered the consequences of the fixes they propose. I don’t think people will be happy with races that (from this or from previous threads) start at max level and can’t be leveled by playing. Don’t have access to story lines. Have minimal cosmetic options. Don’t have a unique voice. Don’t have unique race specific animations, or any other subtractions from current races that they think will fix problems.

People don’t want to buy something that is less than what they’re used to. If they get a new race then they’re going to expect it to be equal to the old races in all its features. A new race that is bare bones will be a disappointment to the average player and will not be worth the costs to produce and the costs to maintain. If it doesn’t share the armor with another race then it will slow down new armor production on top of everything else.

So thanks for the suggestion, but no thanks. I prefer ANet put its money towards features that will benefit a larger proportion of the players.

Other games have introduced races with limitations. But as games vary, so do the choosen limitations.

And the concept of brainstorming and exploring limitations is "considering the problems or consequences". It's extremely baffeling to be accused of not considering something when that is the very definition of what I and the OP are doing.

I'll do you a favor and disregard your claim as a statement for more than yourself, but the limits you brought up to support your claims, while individually not that big of a deal, collectively give your argument strength. But if a new race had everything the current races have except (for example), started at max level, I doubt anyone would care. If a new race had everything except a personal story, again not many would care. If a new race had everything except all the cosmetic options, some might care but it would depend on what cosmetic options were available. If a new race had everything except a unique voice (just borrowed one of the current voice overs), it likely would be jarring for some but people are already used to playing multiple of the same race with the exact same voice anyway so most people likely would manage and just enjoy playing a new PS, the old LW episodes, etc.

I don't think I have to go on. If you want to make a stronger argument, why not focus on the one present in the OP rather than conjuring up tangents? I mean, that's what people trying to solve a problem do. People that prefer to disrupt and destroy ideas are usually ones first willing to railroad discussion off topic.

So a player can only get half or less of the available armor skins for being the wrong race? I'm gonna have to hard pass, even if it means not getting a new race.

It might save the backlog of retooling existing skins, but would severely limit the new players' characters. Not just in fashion wars either. Without rare/unique skin rewards, the content that accesses these skins becomes more or less meaningless. There is already not enough reason to do dungeons, and if you can't wear the armor skin why bother at all? If you can't get the Fractal skins, why bother doing Fractals? If you can't use your Draconic armor, why bother crafting? If you can't get the Bladed or Sunspear skins.... you get the idea. Once again, hard pass.

You're considering how to make it work instead of whining that you need it, and that's excellent... but, sadly, this isn't the solution. What you're suggesting is creating a new game, and would be better off as one, rather than an expansion for Guild Wars.

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:People keep coming up with ways to shoehorn new races in by making “second class races” that don’t have all the features of the current races. Considering that according to gw2efficiency the

percent of players that make and play non human races

trail behind the human race by a substantial amount, a race that will inevitably be seen as a budget cut race will be played even less, making the new races a loss and the money spent on it would be better spent on other features. A new race that has only a handful of armors will be a race that isn’t played much in a game where the endgame is collecting cosmetics.

On top of that will be the reaction of the player base that buys a new race then finds out that it’s lesser in what it can do or wear. Do you actually think that the players won’t consider a bare bones race a cash grab and lazy design on ANet’s part? That they won’t complain bitterly about the limitations of their new toy? If you do then you haven’t seen the threads complaining about clipping on Charr armor.

“New races! With fewer features than before! 3 whole sets of armor per profession (that’s total armor guys. but don’t worry, you can buy outfits for your new race to wear). No access to personal story. Generic voice acting. Only $X, plus $10 for a new character slot. Buy now!”

Naw. I’ll pass. Thnks.

Your entire topic has been proposed before. If you don't want people retreading an argument that has been had 100 times, then don't post a counter-proposal that has been made JUST as often. What you seem to be looking for is people shaking your hand and going "great idea" because so far nothing anyone has said has been new, not even what you've posted so far. My answer is no, I only want all the way or nothing at all.

@Sojourner.4621 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:People keep coming up with ways to shoehorn new races in by making “second class races” that don’t have all the features of the current races. Considering that according to gw2efficiency the

percent of players that make and play non human races

trail behind the human race by a substantial amount, a race that will inevitably be seen as a budget cut race will be played even less, making the new races a loss and the money spent on it would be better spent on other features. A new race that has only a handful of armors will be a race that isn’t played much in a game where the endgame is collecting cosmetics.

On top of that will be the reaction of the player base that buys a new race then finds out that it’s lesser in what it can do or wear. Do you actually think that the players won’t consider a bare bones race a cash grab and lazy design on ANet’s part? That they won’t complain bitterly about the limitations of their new toy? If you do then you haven’t seen the threads complaining about clipping on Charr armor.

“New races! With fewer features than before! 3 whole sets of armor per profession (that’s total armor guys. but don’t worry, you can buy outfits for your new race to wear). No access to personal story. Generic voice acting. Only $X, plus $10 for a new character slot. Buy now!”

Naw. I’ll pass. Thnks.

For one, this isn't my thread. And two, I already know the proposal has been posted because I myself have posted it at least 3 times in the past as threads of my own and have responded to numerous more. And three, I never said I don't want people to retread arguments, I just point out when they do. And four, I'm not personally looking for anything as discussion usually never gets very far in these parts.

As for looking for people to affirm the idea, that's missing the point. We already know that people want more variety. The question is how and at what cost. So far, the points to be drawn from are that those that do desire more races desperately enough understand the impracticalities involved and are willing to sacrifice certain things to get something they want and the counterpoint is sacrificing anything will ruin the finished product beyond redeemability. I personally feel such a counterpoint is why adding more to the game, such as weapon types, armor sets, voice customization, animation customization, build customization, etc suffer because players expect more content more frequently for less cost. As a consumer, it's a no-brainer to use that counterpoint to leverage as best a payoff for the buck I spend, but those payoffs have consequences. It's why people no longer care about immersion in the game and only desire more flashy skins...because that's really the only payoff that's cost efficient enough to be viable. Now everything that could be produced has that level of efficacy hanging over it.

I'd like to discuss more but I doubt projecting my assumptions is something most here would care to read. It's easier to just hard pass on things.

As the OP requested: I might be interested in a new race if it were something new to GW2 -- that is, not Tengu, Kodan, Skritt, Quaggan, etc. None of those interest me. I would definitely not be interested in a race that did not partake of the full range of options available to the existing five races. So, no, I don't want a new race enough to accept a minimalist approach to race design. I would not pay for such a race, nor would I buy an XPac with a minimalist race as the major draw.

In other news: what reason is there to propose a minimalist race concept if not to bypass the feasibility issues inherent to a new race? By even considering accepting less from a race, are we not already buying into the feasibility limitations that have been amply discussed elsewhere?

@IndigoSundown.5419 said:In other news: what reason is there to propose a minimalist race concept if not to bypass the feasibility issues inherent to a new race? By even considering accepting less from a race, are we not already buying into the feasibility limitations that have been amply discussed elsewhere?

That goes without saying. Every addition proposal has feasibility limitations which is why many things that players desire we don't have yet. It's the very same chopping block your armor sets rest on but you consistently see posters requesting more and for outfits to be transformed into armor pieces despite the feasibility being capped by the limitations of how armor is created and maintained.