New playable race & new weapon types limitation talk

[derd.6413]

@"Dantert.1803" said:Do you guys think that for arenanet to focus on expanding on the already existing races would be better than having a new race?Like for example adding more content and more racial armor sets to each race and a rework and expansion of the racial skills to make them actually useful would be interesting enough?

we're on the official forums and some ppl think development involves magic. to me adding a race is one of those "when anet feels like it" deals. or to promote something else like revamped new player experience or something (unlikely tho).

as for your suggestions:

• racial content?
• don't need more racial armor (regular is fine)
• racial skills need a rework to something anet doesn't need to keep being punched into the dirt as to not conflict with their design philosophy. (i.e. something non combat related)

[Leo G.4501]

@"Dantert.1803" said:Do you guys think that for arenanet to focus on expanding on the already existing races would be better than having a new race?Like for example adding more content and more racial armor sets to each race and a rework and expansion of the racial skills to make them actually useful would be interesting enough?

Personally, I think it's better to expand races because it's not an either or game. You can do both. You do both and you open more avenues for monitization.

An idea I considered as a means to cover the cost of adding a single new race: have an account upgrade bundle that you can purchase that unlocks the new race. You might say many people might not buy it, so why not bundle the option with a specific "new character" upgrade, i.e. it unlocks all customization options in the total makeover kit at character creation + the new race as well. And so long as people choose not to delete their old characters (birthday gifts), and Anet keeps releasing new hair/face/etc options, people will still buy and use the total makeover kits. You literally didn't have to lose anything but get people to buy the new race anyway.

[blackheartgary.8605]

....Grr.okay hopefully I read the OP correctly. a new race option but with limited content to that race(example used was armor/outfits, i believe)let's back up a second here and take a look at how character creation works. not the character you play, a character in general.any character, be it in film, books, comics, games, cartoons, even in theatrical productions, has to be considered a seperate entity, not a carbon copy of another character(unless twins, then sure, fine)this mean, the character is conceptualized, fleshed out, has a back story, has a view on the world, and has, ultimately, something to do. those are the basics. that is the FIRST THING. even an extra in a movie has to be fleshed out, and has to have something that he/she/it is doing. and before you go there, YES I KNOW we're talking about an entire race, not just one character. but it actually starts with one character concept.that said,while the concept of having a restricted story when it comes to guild wars 2 might seem a little off, it makes sense. this race would be newly discovered, or introduced to an already existing world with an existing history that, unless otherwise noted, did not include that race. so yes, I am not going to expect a tengu race going through the zhaitan/mordy/balthy/joko story, as if that was the case, we would have been able to play them by now, or they would have been a dominant part of all subsequent storylines. if however, we introduced them as a race that was explorable, able to level, and able to co-exist in the world of tyria with those restrictions present, yeah, id be cool with it, and yes THAT part would be possible.however, understand that with every single new race that is playable, there has to be 2 versions, male and female, as that is the selectable options in the existing character creation screen, and people will riot if that ever changes. that race has to be modeled with 9 playable classes and 18 existing elite specs, technically using 3 pairs of each armor class. they also must have unique vocal stylings and mannerisms so as to set the race apart from the others. and... they have to be fleshed out historically. They cannot just POOF! and there they are.in this aspect, having limited skins for that race, in my opinion, is out of the question, and also in my opinion, illogical.as for some people thinking it's a good idea? noted :) as for people hating the idea? Noted:)as for the saltiness in this thread? dually noted. :)

[Dantert.1803]

@"blackheartgary.8605" said:....Grr.okay hopefully I read the OP correctly. a new race option but with limited content to that race(example used was armor/outfits, i believe)let's back up a second here and take a look at how character creation works. not the character you play, a character in general.any character, be it in film, books, comics, games, cartoons, even in theatrical productions, has to be considered a seperate entity, not a carbon copy of another character(unless twins, then sure, fine)this mean, the character is conceptualized, fleshed out, has a back story, has a view on the world, and has, ultimately, something to do. those are the basics. that is the FIRST THING. even an extra in a movie has to be fleshed out, and has to have something that he/she/it is doing. and before you go there, YES I KNOW we're talking about an entire race, not just one character. but it actually starts with one character concept.that said,while the concept of having a restricted story when it comes to guild wars 2 might seem a little off, it makes sense. this race would be newly discovered, or introduced to an already existing world with an existing history that, unless otherwise noted, did not include that race. so yes, I am not going to expect a tengu race going through the zhaitan/mordy/balthy/joko story, as if that was the case, we would have been able to play them by now, or they would have been a dominant part of all subsequent storylines. if however, we introduced them as a race that was explorable, able to level, and able to co-exist in the world of tyria with those restrictions present, yeah, id be cool with it, and yes THAT part would be possible.however, understand that with every single new race that is playable, there has to be 2 versions, male and female, as that is the selectable options in the existing character creation screen, and people will riot if that ever changes. that race has to be modeled with 9 playable classes and 18 existing elite specs, technically using 3 pairs of each armor class. they also must have unique vocal stylings and mannerisms so as to set the race apart from the others. and... they have to be fleshed out historically. They cannot just POOF! and there they are.in this aspect, having limited skins for that race, in my opinion, is out of the question, and also in my opinion, illogical.as for some people thinking it's a good idea? noted :) as for people hating the idea? Noted:)as for the saltiness in this thread? dually noted. :)

You are right sir.If a new playable race has to happen, it has to be at least introduced in some way, I would hate to have another Revenant situation like "there is this new race of ponies but it's secret why they come into the story".It would be awesome if they would introduce it within the living world story.

[Illconceived Was Na.9781]

@Leo G.4501 said:

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:There's a presumption in the thread that ANet has not considered the idea of "budget races," i.e. ones that have limited access to skins, dialogue, stories, or other aspects that interest players. In fact, ANet has explicitly said they won't do it this way: if there's going to be a new race or a new profession, it will be done to their high standards, not some sort of minimalist effort that pays lip service to the concept.

Regardless of how the OP or others phrase it, a new race is an enormous amount of work. At best, we're discussing a reduction from "enormous" to "almost enormous." There's a huge list of mechanics that make up a new race and dropping a few of them won't reduce the cost enough to make up for the lost benefits. Drop too many and now we're not even looking at a new race in any sort of meaningful way.

Well, for one, Anet never indicated to what extent or quality standard. AFAIK, the way they described it was doing it "right". Even if we're to assume right means all qualities that the current races have, that isn't indicative of the quanity. So your argument against a presumption is a presumption of what Anet consided their standard of quality while making a presumption of what "budget races" means.

I'm pointing out that ANet has already considered the ideas at different levels and they have explicitly said they plan on not working on a new race or new profession any time soon. You're welcome to ignore what they said or to look for a loophole in their phrasing so you can hold on to the hope that we might see a new race before 2020.

[derd.6413]

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:There's a presumption in the thread that ANet has not considered the idea of "budget races," i.e. ones that have limited access to skins, dialogue, stories, or other aspects that interest players. In fact, ANet has explicitly said they won't do it this way: if there's going to be a new race or a new profession, it will be done to their high standards, not some sort of minimalist effort that pays lip service to the concept.

Regardless of how the OP or others phrase it, a new race is an enormous amount of work. At best, we're discussing a reduction from "enormous" to "almost enormous." There's a huge list of mechanics that make up a new race and dropping a few of them won't reduce the cost enough to make up for the lost benefits. Drop too many and now we're not even looking at a new race in any sort of meaningful way.

Well, for one, Anet never indicated to what extent or quality standard. AFAIK, the way they described it was doing it "right". Even if we're to assume right means all qualities that the current races have, that isn't indicative of the quanity. So your argument against a presumption is a presumption of what Anet consided their standard of quality while making a presumption of what "budget races" means.

I'm pointing out that ANet has already considered the ideas at different levels and they have explicitly said they plan on not working on a new race or new profession any time soon. You're welcome to ignore what they said or to look for a loophole in their phrasing so you can hold on to the hope that we might see a new race before 2020.

I just want a new race before the servers get shut down

[Zeike.7469]

@derd.6413 said:As for restricted story: it would make more sense.If they didn't they would need to retcon things go make a new race make sense. (Why did the tengu shoot at their own during the breachmaker attack? Why would trahearn need to keep co-operation with the largos a secret if the commander is one? Etc.) A better aproache would be to not allow a new race to play previous xpac/core story and instead give a smaller story on how the race joined the dragon wars + how we joined dragons watch. The only thing they would need to say in that situation would be that their previous accomplishments where done without the commander / the commander died. which would be easier to swallow since the commander is a nebulous entity already.Plus asking a voice actor to record a couple of years worth of dialouge in a small time frame would just be unreasonable

Completely agree here. A nice pre story of how they joined the dragon wars would be great. Could go into their contribution and move on from there. Being a newer race it could have a lot of the other options instead of HAVING to do the older xpacs. The races could be unlockable through a series of achievements or events to unlock it. Bottom line, an addition to the races doesn't mean it has to start from the beginning of the GW2 Story.

I'd love Tengu, I've loved their appearance in GW1 <3

[Rasimir.6239]

@derd.6413 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:There's a presumption in the thread that ANet has not considered the idea of "budget races," i.e. ones that have limited access to skins, dialogue, stories, or other aspects that interest players. In fact, ANet has explicitly said they won't do it this way: if there's going to be a new race or a new profession, it will be done to their high standards, not some sort of minimalist effort that pays lip service to the concept.

Regardless of how the OP or others phrase it, a new race is an enormous amount of work. At best, we're discussing a reduction from "enormous" to "almost enormous." There's a huge list of mechanics that make up a new race and dropping a few of them won't reduce the cost enough to make up for the lost benefits. Drop too many and now we're not even looking at a new race in any sort of meaningful way.

Well, for one, Anet never indicated to what extent or quality standard. AFAIK, the way they described it was doing it "right". Even if we're to assume right means all qualities that the current races have, that isn't indicative of the quanity. So your argument against a presumption is a presumption of what Anet consided their standard of quality while making a presumption of what "budget races" means.

I'm pointing out that ANet has already considered the ideas at different levels and they have explicitly said they plan on not working on a new race or new profession any time soon. You're welcome to ignore what they said or to look for a loophole in their phrasing so you can hold on to the hope that we might see a new race before 2020.

I just want a new race before the servers get shut downWhy? What does a new race give to you that the existing ones don't?

[derd.6413]

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:There's a presumption in the thread that ANet has not considered the idea of "budget races," i.e. ones that have limited access to skins, dialogue, stories, or other aspects that interest players. In fact, ANet has explicitly said they won't do it this way: if there's going to be a new race or a new profession, it will be done to their high standards, not some sort of minimalist effort that pays lip service to the concept.

Regardless of how the OP or others phrase it, a new race is an enormous amount of work. At best, we're discussing a reduction from "enormous" to "almost enormous." There's a huge list of mechanics that make up a new race and dropping a few of them won't reduce the cost enough to make up for the lost benefits. Drop too many and now we're not even looking at a new race in any sort of meaningful way.

Well, for one, Anet never indicated to what extent or quality standard. AFAIK, the way they described it was doing it "right". Even if we're to assume right means all qualities that the current races have, that isn't indicative of the quanity. So your argument against a presumption is a presumption of what Anet consided their standard of quality while making a presumption of what "budget races" means.

I'm pointing out that ANet has already considered the ideas at different levels and they have explicitly said they plan on not working on a new race or new profession any time soon. You're welcome to ignore what they said or to look for a loophole in their phrasing so you can hold on to the hope that we might see a new race before 2020.

I just want a new race before the servers get shut downWhy? What does a new race give to you that the existing ones don't?

Because it'd be fun.

[Rasimir.6239]

@derd.6413 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:There's a presumption in the thread that ANet has not considered the idea of "budget races," i.e. ones that have limited access to skins, dialogue, stories, or other aspects that interest players. In fact, ANet has explicitly said they won't do it this way: if there's going to be a new race or a new profession, it will be done to their high standards, not some sort of minimalist effort that pays lip service to the concept.

Regardless of how the OP or others phrase it, a new race is an enormous amount of work. At best, we're discussing a reduction from "enormous" to "almost enormous." There's a huge list of mechanics that make up a new race and dropping a few of them won't reduce the cost enough to make up for the lost benefits. Drop too many and now we're not even looking at a new race in any sort of meaningful way.

Well, for one, Anet never indicated to what extent or quality standard. AFAIK, the way they described it was doing it "right". Even if we're to assume right means all qualities that the current races have, that isn't indicative of the quanity. So your argument against a presumption is a presumption of what Anet consided their standard of quality while making a presumption of what "budget races" means.

I'm pointing out that ANet has already considered the ideas at different levels and they have explicitly said they plan on not working on a new race or new profession any time soon. You're welcome to ignore what they said or to look for a loophole in their phrasing so you can hold on to the hope that we might see a new race before 2020.

I just want a new race before the servers get shut downWhy? What does a new race give to you that the existing ones don't?

Because it'd be fun.What would be fun? I'm sorry, but I still can't figure out what exactly the fun is that relies on playing with a new race instead of putting a new spin on one of the existing ones.

[derd.6413]

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:There's a presumption in the thread that ANet has not considered the idea of "budget races," i.e. ones that have limited access to skins, dialogue, stories, or other aspects that interest players. In fact, ANet has explicitly said they won't do it this way: if there's going to be a new race or a new profession, it will be done to their high standards, not some sort of minimalist effort that pays lip service to the concept.

Regardless of how the OP or others phrase it, a new race is an enormous amount of work. At best, we're discussing a reduction from "enormous" to "almost enormous." There's a huge list of mechanics that make up a new race and dropping a few of them won't reduce the cost enough to make up for the lost benefits. Drop too many and now we're not even looking at a new race in any sort of meaningful way.

Well, for one, Anet never indicated to what extent or quality standard. AFAIK, the way they described it was doing it "right". Even if we're to assume right means all qualities that the current races have, that isn't indicative of the quanity. So your argument against a presumption is a presumption of what Anet consided their standard of quality while making a presumption of what "budget races" means.

I'm pointing out that ANet has already considered the ideas at different levels and they have explicitly said they plan on not working on a new race or new profession any time soon. You're welcome to ignore what they said or to look for a loophole in their phrasing so you can hold on to the hope that we might see a new race before 2020.

I just want a new race before the servers get shut downWhy? What does a new race give to you that the existing ones don't?

Because it'd be fun.What would be fun? I'm sorry, but I still can't figure out what exactly the fun is that relies on playing with a new class instead of putting a new spin on one of the existing ones.

Are we talking races or classes? Don't switch between them pls it's just confusing

[Rasimir.6239]

@derd.6413 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:There's a presumption in the thread that ANet has not considered the idea of "budget races," i.e. ones that have limited access to skins, dialogue, stories, or other aspects that interest players. In fact, ANet has explicitly said they won't do it this way: if there's going to be a new race or a new profession, it will be done to their high standards, not some sort of minimalist effort that pays lip service to the concept.

Regardless of how the OP or others phrase it, a new race is an enormous amount of work. At best, we're discussing a reduction from "enormous" to "almost enormous." There's a huge list of mechanics that make up a new race and dropping a few of them won't reduce the cost enough to make up for the lost benefits. Drop too many and now we're not even looking at a new race in any sort of meaningful way.

Well, for one, Anet never indicated to what extent or quality standard. AFAIK, the way they described it was doing it "right". Even if we're to assume right means all qualities that the current races have, that isn't indicative of the quanity. So your argument against a presumption is a presumption of what Anet consided their standard of quality while making a presumption of what "budget races" means.

I'm pointing out that ANet has already considered the ideas at different levels and they have explicitly said they plan on not working on a new race or new profession any time soon. You're welcome to ignore what they said or to look for a loophole in their phrasing so you can hold on to the hope that we might see a new race before 2020.

I just want a new race before the servers get shut downWhy? What does a new race give to you that the existing ones don't?

Because it'd be fun.What would be fun? I'm sorry, but I still can't figure out what exactly the fun is that relies on playing with a new class instead of putting a new spin on one of the existing ones.

Are we talking races or classes? Don't switch between them pls it's just confusingSorry, typo, races of course. That's what this thread is about, isn't it?

[derd.6413]

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Rasimir.6239 said:

@derd.6413 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:

@Illconceived Was Na.9781 said:There's a presumption in the thread that ANet has not considered the idea of "budget races," i.e. ones that have limited access to skins, dialogue, stories, or other aspects that interest players. In fact, ANet has explicitly said they won't do it this way: if there's going to be a new race or a new profession, it will be done to their high standards, not some sort of minimalist effort that pays lip service to the concept.

Regardless of how the OP or others phrase it, a new race is an enormous amount of work. At best, we're discussing a reduction from "enormous" to "almost enormous." There's a huge list of mechanics that make up a new race and dropping a few of them won't reduce the cost enough to make up for the lost benefits. Drop too many and now we're not even looking at a new race in any sort of meaningful way.

Well, for one, Anet never indicated to what extent or quality standard. AFAIK, the way they described it was doing it "right". Even if we're to assume right means all qualities that the current races have, that isn't indicative of the quanity. So your argument against a presumption is a presumption of what Anet consided their standard of quality while making a presumption of what "budget races" means.

I'm pointing out that ANet has already considered the ideas at different levels and they have explicitly said they plan on not working on a new race or new profession any time soon. You're welcome to ignore what they said or to look for a loophole in their phrasing so you can hold on to the hope that we might see a new race before 2020.

I just want a new race before the servers get shut downWhy? What does a new race give to you that the existing ones don't?

Because it'd be fun.What would be fun? I'm sorry, but I still can't figure out what exactly the fun is that relies on playing with a new class instead of putting a new spin on one of the existing ones.

Are we talking races or classes? Don't switch between them pls it's just confusingSorry, typo, races of course. That's what this thread is about, isn't it?

The fun of a new race, besides the astetical change is that it adds lore, culture, politics and characters in the game that the other races can't add.

[Diescream.8053]

@Leo G.4501 said:Well, the way I would prefer it, it wouldn't just be 1 race made available but 2-3.

I think that would be a great idea. For example, the next xpac could be set in a new area with 3 new races to choose from. And their personal story would get you up to speed with the current events going on in the rest if the world.

Only gem store items would need to be reworked to fit them. And instead of new weapons, we would get new skins: so a greataxe would actually just be a elite skin for a greatsword. Perhaps make it so equiping the skin changes only the name of the abilites, and their icons?

They could even hold a contest where the community helps design the new armors for the new races, so more people are satified and fewer armors need to be created for the new races.

• So same weapons, just elite skins that can also be used in the rest of the game.
• New racial armors that the community helps design. Maybe add gem store items for the base races that want to wear them. And have another contest to see which base armor skins should be added to the gem store for the new races.
• I don't really think the new races need to have access to previous LW events. Just hop on an alt for that.

As for the base races:

• Norn transformations should be their passive ability. No bonus stats or skills, just transform whenever they're in combat long enough. Same with asura, give them mech suits. And you can turn it off in the options menu.
• The other racial skills should be rebalanced and made available to every race. That way there's no racial bias. Just more option for building your skill bar.

[Diescream.8053]

@Dantert.1803 said:...the topic is how much can be cut from a content like a new race to be acceptable and if something like that is even worth it.

That's hard to say, tonics are pretty popular but are they better than adding a new racial experience? WoW's success seems to say that adding races isn't a bad thing. Maybe tonics should be reworked and given the mount treatment (the same skills underneath the hood, but a fresh coat of dyes and visuals).

[Steve The Cynic.3217]

@Leo G.4501 said:Personally? Because I think about 40% of the armor is gaudy garbage.

Sure, I tend to agree. We probably don't agree on which 40% is gaudy garbage, of course. Ask enough people, and you'll probably find that each person thinks 40% is gaudy garbage, but you'll find nothing that is in everybody's 40%.

Same for outfits.

And mount skins.

And character appearance options.

And a few people who pick armour set X precisely because it is gaudy garbage.

[b k.1648]

It's been said before in this thread, but it's true - regardless of whether there are a few people who'd play a bare-bones implementation of a race with hardly any wearable armour skins, most existing and potential customers are going to see that as a lazy cash-grab. You might get away with cutting out all of the personal story until expansion pack 3, perhaps (if it's a race you have to unlock).

But it would need all of the armour skins, outfits and face customization options available to other races or people are not going to enjoy playing it. Content that people don't like to play backfires.

So the odds of seeing playable races that will require a new rig do not seem favourable to me. Centaurs, quaggans, hylek and largos would be among that group.

The only two (popular) candidates I can see that would work with a bit of squash-and-stretch are kodan (on the norn rig) and tengu (on the charr).

[kharmin.7683]

@derd.6413 said:The fun of a new race, besides the astetical change is that it adds lore, culture, politics and characters in the game that the other races can't add.

Which, I believe, would take A LOT of dev work that I (and others in this thread alone) would prefer be better invested elsewhere. Existing content would stagnate as time/resources would be bent toward this request/feature. People are kittened off enough with the downtime between LS chapters. I think moving in this direction would drive a pretty big stake into GW2.

/me shrugs

[derd.6413]

@kharmin.7683 said:

@derd.6413 said:The fun of a new race, besides the astetical change is that it adds lore, culture, politics and characters in the game that the other races can't add.

Which, I believe, would take A LOT of dev work that I (and others in this thread alone) would prefer be better invested elsewhere. Existing content would stagnate as time/resources would be bent toward this request/feature. People are kittened off enough with the downtime between LS chapters. I think moving in this direction would drive a pretty big stake into GW2.

/me shrugs

wanna make clear that while i would like new races, i understand the issues with making them and that anet has their resources spread thin as is. i just find it an entertaining topic to discuss. (also i find that ppl who whine about the time between LS episodes are unreasonably impatient)

[Ardid.7203]

@Dantert.1803 said:Do you guys think that for arenanet to focus on expanding on the already existing races would be better than having a new race?Like for example adding more content and more racial armor sets to each race and a rework and expansion of the racial skills to make them actually useful would be interesting enough?

I would actually love this. IMO it shouldn't prevent a new playable race from happening... but given the scenario of choosing between the two for the next expansion, I would indeed prefer to have more racial specific stories, emotes, customization alternatives, dialogs and couple of new cultural armor sets for each species. A rework to the racial skills to make them useful (like making 5 visually distinct cultural versions for the same skill mechanics we already have in game, so everyone get the same possible builds) would also be amazing for me.

[Knuckle Joe.7408]

For new weapons, they could just use the base models we have now and work the animations from there, from the ones we already have as well.

If anet wanted to make a dervish for example, I don't see anything that could impede that. We already have staves that look like scythes and judging by the staff swing animations of daredevil, we can see they can come out with nice new animations.

Same with a greataxe, just grab the base model of a staff and put a blade on the end, make a new animations or even recycle a few of daredevil and there you have it.

Check the animation of staff 1 from guardian, or underwater spear 3 from warrior. with a little tweaks, those could easily pass up as lance stabs in land. Then look at Reaper's autoattack in shadow form. That''s greatsword animation and it looks alright for scythe.

But yeah, not enough recources™

[starlinvf.1358]

@Diescream.8053 said:

@"Dantert.1803" said:...the topic is how much can be cut from a content like a new race to be acceptable and if something like that is even worth it.

That's hard to say, tonics are pretty popular but are they better than adding a new racial experience? WoW's success seems to say that adding races isn't a bad thing. Maybe tonics should be reworked and given the mount treatment (the same skills underneath the hood, but a fresh coat of dyes and visuals).

But WoW also purposely deprecates its old content, and only wants people to congregate in the newest expansion. Its their business model to keep people on the newest content, coalesced in the current end game, fighting uphill against the current gear cycle. GW1's model from Factions forward actually makes the most sense for a system that wants to introduce new elements, while also maintaining high replay value of old content. Each campaign is self contained, and characters can freely migrate between content blocks at their leisure. New classes and skills can be back ported to old content, bringing new dynamics to how they're played.

This would had worked for GW2, had there not been the flaws of open world settings and the gear system, which hampers the need for player interaction. GW1 had an N'th effect with party comps whenever a new set of skills hit the game; and most players actively experimented with build concepts, and adjusted them around the type of enemies common to the area they are in. However, modern open world design calls for a high level of independence.... and our base class design has that in mind. The gear system also demands a large amount of investment into a build concept.... so logically players want to take it to a performance extreme and not have to carry N numbers of complete armor/trinkets to support it. We can easily see the results of this in how the meta obsesses with DPS benchmarks, since 90% of the game demands the same 4 types of effects...... Cleave/AOE for tagging, High damage output for fastest kills, Healing rebound on mistakes, and some combination of high impact/low cost defenses to mitigate or outsustain damage. The last 2 are easiest to address with the dedication of 1 or 2 skills/traits, or weighting into gear sets (like how Marauders "Zerks but with some defense". This frees up the rest of your investment into the most effective AOE DPS potential you can muster.

But there was also a problem with GW1's design...... its class maintenance requirements grow with each campaign as multiplicative in some areas, and exponential in others. Every class needs a new set of skills. The new classes have to avoid too much overlap with existing classes, but still needs some overlap to create new synergies. Every class needs a set of weapon and armor skins (which all but Staff and Scepter/Focus were not interchangeable for Class majors). A new set of unique crafting materials needed to be for the content block. Trophies were still a currency back then, and used to get desirable items. And thats not even starting on the Skill balance concerns.

Theres no arguing that the Especs are light years ahead of classic class designs in terms of production efficiency and game integration. Its also much, much better at maintaining character value, and the huge time and effort investments we're expected to put into each in order to properly deck them out. And unlike rolling a new character, everything I already have soul bound to my existing character has at least some potential for repurposing and cost savings. Not to mention its a lot harder to completely marginalize a class the more major build options they have.

But the nail in the cross with the WoW argument is Blizzards resources. They are one of the few companies that can afford to run an MMO and still develop enough content for it. Most others I've seen will spend huge amounts upfront, but then go into maintenance mode in less then 2 years, once the Executives realize MMOs cost a LOT to maintain any kind of stable growth. This is why so many MMOs switch gears so quickly, and end up trying to milk its most dedicated players for all their worth. Even GW2 was like this for over a year and a half, and is on a short list I can count on my hand that managed to get out of that hole and become a stable game. However, none of them have the level of rapid, sustained growth they want, and the main reason they're kept going is how their the company's only stable source of income.

So to conclude.... WoW makes for a difficult comparison in terms of business model, because its Eco-system is completely unique to itself. And its been repeatedly shown that copying WoW, without that ecosystem backing it, results in all the problems and a mere fraction of the gains. Blizzard can throw stupid amounts of money at something, have it fail, and not really suffer a risk over it. With a lot of other developers doing the same, and having it fail, can sink the whole studio. Its production is incredibly resource intensive, and made to churn out a massive block of content every 6 months; yet its grown so unsustainable, even Blizzard is struggling to keep up with it. I know its a long response to a short off handed comment.... but that context is a big deal, that is often taken for granted in these discussions. Players generally won't say "no" to "more stuff".... but many don't realize how much work/cost goes into the type of content we expect from even cheap games.

[Egrimm Van Horstmann.7921]

One possibility is something like a undead (kind of like Awakened), body swapping (morphing into something else), or spiritual race (Exaulted or Ascalon Ghost kind of thing) type, where you accept the race change after already having a toon of the max level. This way your home can still be the normal if that's too much work, but you could get a new race type that isn't your current one. This wouldn't require a new story for the lower tiers and you could still play something different.

[Leo G.4501]

@Diescream.8053 said:

@Leo G.4501 said:Well, the way I would prefer it, it wouldn't just be 1 race made available but 2-3.

I think that would be a great idea. For example, the next xpac could be set in a new area with 3 new races to choose from. And their personal story would get you up to speed with the current events going on in the rest if the world.

Only gem store items would need to be reworked to fit them. And instead of new weapons, we would get new skins: so a greataxe would actually just be a elite skin for a greatsword. Perhaps make it so equiping the skin changes only the name of the abilites, and their icons?

They could even hold a contest where the community helps design the new armors for the new races, so more people are satified and fewer armors need to be created for the new races.

• So same weapons, just elite skins that can also be used in the rest of the game.
• New racial armors that the community helps design. Maybe add gem store items for the base races that want to wear them. And have another contest to see which base armor skins should be added to the gem store for the new races.
• I don't really think the new races need to have access to previous LW events. Just hop on an alt for that.

As for the base races:

• Norn transformations should be their passive ability. No bonus stats or skills, just transform whenever they're in combat long enough. Same with asura, give them mech suits. And you can turn it off in the options menu.
• The other racial skills should be rebalanced and made available to every race. That way there's no racial bias. Just more option for building your skill bar.

These are some interesting ideas I hadn't considered. The separate weapon skins would likely need to be accessible to every race though...the backlash of releasing a 2-handed axe for the new race and not everyone would be tremenous...but one aspect you could tailor for a new race would be animations for specific skins...like the scythe skins for staff, you can tailor the animations to favor scythe skin models.

Designing armors I could see not because it would aleviate any work, but because if old armor was the bottleneck for allowing players to submit designs, just create a new armor system for the new races that doesn't make the same mistakes as the old. What those mistakes and considerations are I am unsure but the current armor system might be too expanded to just patch it...so maybe a separate unique armor system could be a possible solution.

...I mean, the other option is just keep the system the same and make the devs work harder and pump out armor faster.

And if they made Norn transformation a passive transformation that turns on during combat while keeping your armor look and the ability to choose to turn it off temporarily or permanatly(or turn it on permanantly, for that matter), I might actually play Norn more.

[Leo G.4501]

@Ardid.7203 said:

@"Dantert.1803" said:Do you guys think that for arenanet to focus on expanding on the already existing races would be better than having a new race?Like for example adding more content and more racial armor sets to each race and a rework and expansion of the racial skills to make them actually useful would be interesting enough?

I would actually love this. IMO it shouldn't prevent a new playable race from happening... but given the scenario of choosing between the two for the next expansion, I would indeed prefer to have more racial specific stories, emotes, customization alternatives, dialogs and couple of new cultural armor sets for each species. A rework to the racial skills to make them useful (like making 5 visually distinct cultural versions for the same skill mechanics we already have in game, so everyone get the same possible builds) would also be amazing for me.

It really is a whole other discussion, but if this thread is any indication, it's a discussion that won't go beyond "they need to do it exactly like the rest and not deviate whatsoever". Like, for instance, more racial specific stories (I personally would prefer profession specific stories, to also emphasize that your character is a(n)[insert profession] as well as an [insert race]...kind of to give a racial depiction of what the races feel about those professions...like we were told toward the beginning that Charr are weary of magic users...but it's never touched upon later). To make such a thing a reality, it might be better to look at what is desired from such a feature and what limitations come with it. Keeping with this example, a desire for such story additions might be dialog options with some branching results but voice acting and cutscenes might limit the feature. So why not discuss about losing spoken dialog for that? You'd hit a wall because no consideration is paid to that and dismissed because the rest of the story has spoken dialog and so should this.