ArenaNet, can I get banned for using this?

https://www.reddit.com/r/Guildwars2/comments/8gkd7u/release_incqol_sell_your_trash_now/

A very clever reddit user has made a third-party tool which enables you to mark items such as minor/major sigils and runes, which can then be sold through the "sell junk" button. This tool would massively increase my enjoyment of the game and improve my QoL, not to mention saving me some major finger strain.

The guy who made the tool reached out to Chris Cleary but was given an uncertain answer in regards to the compliancy of his addon. I will not download this and risk a ban until I get a concrete answer, but I would really like a firm and concrete answer (not postulating from users).

I can tell you this. ANet is not going to come on the forum and tell you that [some unnamed addon] by [some unknown person] from some Reddit post is ok to use. The creator needs to contact ANet and hash it out.

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:I can tell you this. ANet is not going to come on the forum and tell you that [some unnamed addon] by [some unknown person] from some Reddit post is ok to use. The creator needs to contact ANet and hash it out.

Well apparently they have ignored him for about a month now. It's irritating I have to hurt my hands until they decide to give the go ahead for a feature that should rightly already be in the game. Manually clicking every sigil and rune is absolutely horrible.

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:I can tell you this. ANet is not going to come on the forum and tell you that [some unnamed addon] by [some unknown person] from some Reddit post is ok to use. The creator needs to contact ANet and hash it out.

"Manually clicking"

But you can just click the "sell item" button 20 times without any effort put in

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:I can tell you this. ANet is not going to come on the forum and tell you that [some unnamed addon] by [some unknown person] from some Reddit post is ok to use. The creator needs to contact ANet and hash it out.

Yah. I know. But if they haven’t ok’d it with the creator then they’re not going to come on the forum to ok it. For all he knows there is a backlog of addons to check out and it just takes time.

@Blocki.4931 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:I can tell you this. ANet is not going to come on the forum and tell you that [some unnamed addon] by [some unknown person] from some Reddit post is ok to use. The creator needs to contact ANet and hash it out.

The answer will be: At your own risk.

This is the same question again and again, corresponding to a standard and famous case: The owner has a contract in place (in this case Anet) with its customer (in this case the players), and the customer wants to do something that is not according to contract in place (can be with involvement of a 3rd party, but not necessarily).

For the owner, the case is clear: Even if they know that the deviation is OK and will do no harm, they can in no way allow it officially. Reason: If they do, and that something goes wrong, they are fully responsible although it is something happening out of the contract in place! The potential consequences can be enormous.

The risk is even higher in the case of a 3rd party involved, because the owner has no control on the 3rd party out of a contractual agreement. In such a case, if something goes wrong, the customer will tell the owner: "You told me officially that I can use it, please fix the problem" and the 3rd party will tell the owner "You did allow it officially, responsibility is with you to fix the trouble", and even if all this is not true, at the end, especially if it turns into a big money story, on the paper, the owner is stuck and will "pay for all".

Sorry, this was long and boring, but this is to explain that even in a game, with something that seems as easy as simple little software from a 3rd party, the risk behind the front scene is enormous for the owner, in our case Anet. And that's why whatever they are writing, it will always finish with "At your own risk" like you can see at the very bottom of the link you provided.

Personally, my opinion is that to get banned or not should not be the main worry. This provided link is clear enough to close the issue. The true thing to worry about is: What happens if something goes wrong?For example, what if the 3rd party program causes a trouble (for whatever reason, nobody can be 100% sure) and we can not start GW2 anymore? What do we do then? Where do we get help? We cannot ask Anet. It was at our own risk and it is a 3rd party program they don't know. Even if they would like to help, they can't. It is out of their control because it is not their program. Of course we can then contact the 3rd party who did the software, and they will probably want to help, but to what extent? Do they have the resources to manage 1000 of players asking help? Do they have sufficient competencies to fix the issue, whatever it is? And if it needs cooperation from Anet what get rejected? Then what? Stuck!

All that to say: Of course we can use 3rd party program, especially if they respect the rules as per the link you provided, but at the end, there is a risk: If technically something goes wrong, we are left alone with it. To manage that risk and be ready to live with the potential consequences is our own decision. Nobody can take it for us. And maybe that in 95% of the cases everything will be fine, but for the rest 5% that can be bad and nobody can tell who will be the 5%.

Sorry if it was much now, but I believe that too many people does not have a clear and realistic picture of the implication of using a 3rd party software. And this was not to tell not to do it. This was just to say: Be aware and clear about what it means.

'Unlikely' to me means 'you should totally do it', since I really wanted to do it, and took his advice and completed my project.

:/

@"Dreamy Lu.3865" said:The answer will be: At your own risk.

This is the same question again and again, corresponding to a standard and famous case: The owner has a contract in place (in this case Anet) with its customer (in this case the players), and the customer wants to do something that is not according to contract in place (can be with involvement of a 3rd party, but not necessarily).

For the owner, the case is clear: Even if they know that the deviation is OK and will do no harm, they can in no way allow it officially. Reason: If they do, and that something goes wrong, they are fully responsible although it is something happening out of the contract in place! The potential consequences can be enormous.

The risk is even higher in the case of a 3rd party involved, because the owner has no control on the 3rd party out of a contractual agreement. In such a case, if something goes wrong, the customer will tell the owner: "You told me officially that I can use it, please fix the problem" and the 3rd party will tell the owner "You did allow it officially, responsibility is with you to fix the trouble", and even if all this is not true, at the end, especially if it turns into a big money story, on the paper, the owner is stuck and will "pay for all".

Sorry, this was long and boring, but this is to explain that even in a game, with something that seems as easy as simple little software from a 3rd party, the risk behind the front scene is enormous for the owner, in our case Anet. And that's why whatever they are writing, it will always finish with "At your own risk" like you can see at the very bottom of the link you provided.

Personally, my opinion is that to get banned or not should not be the main worry. This provided link is clear enough to close the issue. The true thing to worry about is: What happens if something goes wrong?For example, what if the 3rd party program causes a trouble (for whatever reason, nobody can be 100% sure) and we can not start GW2 anymore? What do we do then? Where do we get help? We cannot ask Anet. It was at our own risk and it is a 3rd party program they don't know. Even if they would like to help, they can't. It is out of their control because it is not their program. Of course we can then contact the 3rd party who did the software, and they will probably want to help, but to what extent? Do they have the resources to manage 1000 of players asking help? Do they have sufficient competencies to fix the issue, whatever it is? And if it needs cooperation from Anet what get rejected? Then what? Stuck!

All that to say: Of course we can use 3rd party program, especially if they respect the rules as per the link you provided, but at the end, there is a risk: If technically something goes wrong, we are left alone with it. To manage that risk and be ready to live with the potential consequences is our own decision. Nobody can take it for us. And maybe that in 95% of the cases everything will be fine, but for the rest 5% that can be bad and nobody can tell who will be the 5%.

Sorry if it was much now, but I believe that too many people does not have a clear and realistic picture of the implication of using a 3rd party software. And this was not to tell not to do it. This was just to say: Be aware and clear about what it means.

I mean, personally, I use ArcDPS and ArcBuilds. If someone goes wrong with them, it's on ME to figure it out and fix it. I know that and I'm comfortable with my modest technical knowledge to be able to use them. I always use these at my own risk, in terms of technical support.

I just want to be given the okay, to actually be ABLE to use it at my own risk.

@notebene.3190 said:'Unlikely' to me means 'you should totally do it', since I really wanted to do it, and took his advice and completed my project.

:/

Are you /u/Qouve, the author?

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:I can tell you this. ANet is not going to come on the forum and tell you that [some unnamed addon] by [some unknown person] from some Reddit post is ok to use. The creator needs to contact ANet and hash it out.

From the reddit post:

"It's unlikely that this would be ToS compliant, and there are a number of complications of an addon like this being distributed to players who don't understand exactly what is going on. The filtering of a player's inventory can be a very tricky task, especially considering how fluid the inventory can be and all the different bag types."

• ChrisCleary

Basically means: use at your own risk. Arenanet have not had the time to properly assess this tool yet but upon first inspection they are not recommending it (if we consider Chris's answer as Arenanets stance on this).

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:I can tell you this. ANet is not going to come on the forum and tell you that [some unnamed addon] by [some unknown person] from some Reddit post is ok to use. The creator needs to contact ANet and hash it out.

"It's unlikely that this would be ToS compliant, and there are a number of complications of an addon like this being distributed to players who don't understand exactly what is going on. The filtering of a player's inventory can be a very tricky task, especially considering how fluid the inventory can be and all the different bag types."

• ChrisCleary

I just feel like it's quite irresponsible to gave such a vague answer on this, because the temptation to get it is VERY strong, due to how much it would improve the game. But is it worth getting a ban? No way.

Even if they're not sure, I'd rather they just flat out said no, so I don't have to be tempted.

It's same type of autoclicker as arcdps build templates is. This means Anet shouldn't forbid it however it's unlikely they will ever respond to you. I feel like Chris Cleary already regrets ever talking about arc. Pandora box is opened.

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:I can tell you this. ANet is not going to come on the forum and tell you that [some unnamed addon] by [some unknown person] from some Reddit post is ok to use. The creator needs to contact ANet and hash it out.

"It's unlikely that this would be ToS compliant, and there are a number of complications of an addon like this being distributed to players who don't understand exactly what is going on. The filtering of a player's inventory can be a very tricky task, especially considering how fluid the inventory can be and all the different bag types."

• ChrisCleary

It's.... not vague. Chris said: not likely to happen. Because it's not likely to be TOS compliant.

Saying it's vague doesn't make it vague.

It would likely not be TOS compliant. If you get banned for it, please don't tie up the forum with 'why did this happen to me' posts.

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:I can tell you this. ANet is not going to come on the forum and tell you that [some unnamed addon] by [some unknown person] from some Reddit post is ok to use. The creator needs to contact ANet and hash it out.

"It's unlikely that this would be ToS compliant, and there are a number of complications of an addon like this being distributed to players who don't understand exactly what is going on. The filtering of a player's inventory can be a very tricky task, especially considering how fluid the inventory can be and all the different bag types."

• ChrisCleary

It's vague. Let me show you how it is vague:

"Unlikely this is ToS compliant" / "This is not ToS compliant". It is vague because the word "unlikely" by definition leaves room for possibility. Because it leaves room for possibility, it isn't a concrete answer, and so it is a vague answer.

Anyway thanks for not reading my post, where I said I won't be downloading this and risking a ban until ArenaNet explicitly states it is fine for me to use. I won't be tying up the forum anytime soon (god forbid it's so busy around here).

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Just a flesh wound.3589 said:I can tell you this. ANet is not going to come on the forum and tell you that [some unnamed addon] by [some unknown person] from some Reddit post is ok to use. The creator needs to contact ANet and hash it out.

Lol, wow.

"It's unlikely that this would be ToS compliant,

• ChrisCleary

I think you mean that it's (a) not the answer you hoped for and (b) it leaves open the possibility that it might be in the future.That's not the same as "vague."

@"Illconceived Was Na.9781" said:

"It's unlikely that this would be ToS compliant,

• ChrisCleary

Vague, by definition, means "uncertain".

He said unlikely.

Now tell me in what bizarre universe do you live where "unlikely" isn't uncertain.

I wouldn't use that. Just not worth it.

Btw, the best solution to the rune problem is to buy two 20-slot craftsman bags and just hold all green runes at the bottom of your bags. You can even adjust the inventory window so that you don't see the runes.

@"ProverbsofHell.2307" said:Vague, by definition, means "uncertain".The point I was making is that "vague" might not have been a helpful word choice in making your case. But how about let's skip the war of definitions versus connotations, instead of digressing off topic. In the end, it really doesn't matter if either of us think the statement is vague or uncertain. What matters is that you're unsure about whether using the app would risk your account.

Here are the options for what they could say:(1) "it's not compliant until we say it is and we won't be saying it will be"(2) "it's not complaint until we say it is and we have no plans to review this particular utility"(3) "it's unlikely to be compliant because it ignores all these potential problems"(4) There is not a "(4)" because they aren't ever going to promise to review every app out there. It's a full time job and they have other things on their plate.

The first two are certain in the way that you prefer but they also rule out any possibility that it's okay to use this. The last is what Cleary actually said, and it leaves open a possibility. That means you can choose to risk your account by using it now.

Rather than calling it "irresponsible," you could take it as a sign that they aren't saying "absolutely not" and you have a window of opportunity in which you can make use of the shortcut.

Personally, I think it's a slick bit of code but I don't trust its developer to keep up with changes that ANet makes, so I wouldn't want to risk the items on my account by using it. (I'm sure the developer is reliable and bright, but they aren't under contract to maintain the tool and there's no telling what might break its functionality in a way that consumes items, rather than vendors them.)

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@Cyninja.2954 said:

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:

@"Just a flesh wound.3589" said:I can tell you this. ANet is not going to come on the forum and tell you that [some unnamed addon] by [some unknown person] from some Reddit post is ok to use. The creator needs to contact ANet and hash it out.

"It's unlikely that this would be ToS compliant, and there are a number of complications of an addon like this being distributed to players who don't understand exactly what is going on. The filtering of a player's inventory can be a very tricky task, especially considering how fluid the inventory can be and all the different bag types."

• ChrisCleary

What Chris said was, to expand it into absolutely clear and concrete terms:

The piece of software you have described, but not built, is not ToS compliant. However, because it does not actually exist, I can't say with absolute certainty that will be true when you are finished. So, you can build it, and ask again, but it is extremely unilkely that they answer will be anything other than "no" at that point in time.

Context matters, and while Chris could have been more firm, he opted for more precise. It's an occupational hazzard for software people. ;)

Anyway thanks for not reading my post, where I said I won't be downloading this and risking a ban until ArenaNet explicitly states it is fine for me to use. I won't be tying up the forum anytime soon (god forbid it's so busy around here).

Excellent plan. I would love it to be approved, but I am pretty sure it isn't going to happen.

It makes me think, if they won't approve it, why do they not add this feature in? Is the excessive clicking intended? I just don't get it. I just want to improve my game experience.

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:It makes me think, if they won't approve it, why do they not add this feature in? Is the excessive clicking intended? I just don't get it. I just want to improve my game experience.

Yes, it's intended. Sigils and runes are not considered junk so you have to sell them manually. My guess is since there is no way to select items or click the sell button programmatically this would get you banned for automation.

@ProverbsofHell.2307 said:It makes me think, if they won't approve it, why do they not add this feature in? Is the excessive clicking intended? I just don't get it. I just want to improve my game experience.

Because there is only so much time in a day and they have to prioritize what they work on. QoL items tend to fall low on the priority scale because the game is still playable without it. Bug fixing (especially of game breaking and progress breaking bugs) and adding new content typically fall higher than QoL.

Short answer: Dont use any 3rd party programs or softwares at all, just to be on the safe and good side. If you want to risk and take the chance, go ahead and use that program.