[Spoiler] So, what now?

Just finished the story of Episode 3 and after we killed of Joko, what will the rest of LS4 bring. Are we going to deal with Kralkatorrik as part of the LS as well and then move on to something else? I kinda think that this will be the case. We will tend to Aurene and help her through puberty, then she will find kralk for us and we will put him back to sleep by one of taimis wonderous, day saving inventions.

What do you think will happen in the LS from here on? I thought that Joko will take most of the space in this LS and that we might kill him off at the end, chapter 5 or 6 or something along those lines, but now we're halfway in and the lich has become dragon fodder...what now?

Now that we are established in Kourna, I guess we will move on Kralkatorrik and deal with the aftermath of Joko’s demise.

Order of Shadows, Awakened/Loyalists and Sunspears are still out there.

I may have missed it but Troopmarshal Olori Ogun could still be around, as is Wurmmarshal Osa Ekolo.

And then there is the original Order of Whispers, focused on dragons.

I don't really believe that Joko is killed, hard to explain what just happened in last mission, maybe Aurene ate some random Awakened posed as Joko and controlled by him? Anyway I'm pretty sure Joko is still alive and everything goes as he planned.

To be honest given how bad and rushed that episode and ending was, I find myself wondering do I care. I want to, but time and again the writers show little respect for either the story or the lore, that any hope I might have for where we could go, will be smashed against the rocks.

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Rap Tiger.1257 said:

@"cNd.1096" said:I don't really believe that Joko is killed, hard to explain what just happened in last mission, maybe Aurene ate some random Awakened posed as Joko and controlled by him? Anyway I'm pretty sure Joko is still alive and everything goes as he planned.

@Randulf.7614 said:To be honest given how bad and rushed that episode and ending was, I find myself wondering do I care. I want to, but time and again the writers show little respect for either the story or the lore, that any hope I might have for where we could go, will be smashed against the rocks.

I'm not being rude, the point is we can not waste time with Joko, have another story ahead and also other elders dragons to worry about, would you extend this story with joko until another expansion? Scarlet delayed because he needed a strategy to wake up an elder dragon, Zaithan died very easy and there he lacked creativity ... but anyway ...

I would extend this story to the final or penultimate episode. Konig wrote an excellent post on how Joko needed more screen time and why characters like lazarus and Joko deserve so much more than what they get - ie mini boss status, thrown away just for the sake if a quick closure.

The story of Joko, elona and the plague was immediate and important enough to be given much more time than it was. GW2 is full of unfulfilled stories and the hope was Joko, bring so entrenched in the franchise would not suffer the same fate as many other plots

As I was speculating for few months that Joko will be killed in 3rd episode.

Good that ANet writers want to carry the story on more interesting enemy- Kralkatorrik.

Aurene very interests me, and this eating Joko was way way way WAY too much!!! She is turning into some vicious creature like hyena, I'm very concerned about her and Canach made a very good point about her.

Aurene's Kralk part is waking up and it may lead to very complicated situations.

Joko was just a ruse to wake up her still hidden beast inside her.

I think Aurene's and ours connection will break up at some point, and Aurene will turn into a villain.

@Randulf.7614 said:I would extend this story to the final or penultimate episode. Konig wrote an excellent post on how Joko needed more screen time and why characters like lazarus and Joko deserve so much more than what they get - ie mini boss status, thrown away just for the sake if a quick closure.

The story of Joko, elona and the plague was immediate and important enough to be given much more time than it was. GW2 is full of unfulfilled stories and the hope was Joko, bring so entrenched in the franchise would not suffer the same fate as many other plots

Maybe some people may say he died too soon, but the cinematic in the end with his facial expression and everything was just amazing, and we cannot tell that it was as bad as Lazarus' plot.

I think it was an excelent ending!!

I am so glad they brought back such cinematics!!

@Gorgaan Peaudesang.8324 said:Now that we are established in Kourna, I guess we will move on Kralkatorrik and deal with the aftermath of Joko’s demise.

Order of Shadows, Awakened/Loyalists and Sunspears are still out there.

I may have missed it but Troopmarshal Olori Ogun could still be around, as is Wurmmarshal Osa Ekolo.

And then there is the original Order of Whispers, focused on dragons.

Well, I noticed that Troopmarshal Olori Ogun is actually on the bounty board in the Allied Encampent.

But onto the topic at hand. I would like to think that Joko isn't quite dead quite yet. I mean, he even said, just before he became dragon chow: 'Rumors of my immortality are understated'. And I am sure all those that came before us have tried to destroy his body and maybe even soul, and they failed. So something tells me Joko is still around in one form or another. After all, traditional liches cannot be killed until the phylactery is destroyed. I know that GW liches don't follow that trend, but if all you had to do is destroy the soul, I am sure a lot of necromancer/ritualists and other 'ghost-eater' type of professions would have put an end to him in the several hundred years he was gracing Tyria.

Now, you can say that Aurene (being a dragon) devoured his magical essence, and ergo killed him. But, with his boast, and later reveal that he knows everything about anything, I think he is still alive or at the very least still be a plot device. He could around merely in spirit, like Vlast. So you collect Shards of Joko (?) to realize how to combat Kralk, or heal Aurene.

Another reason I don't Joko is dead just yet, is because it does not fit his character. He is known to ridiculously deceptive and manipulative. He has conquered nations, practically only with guile and treachery. I think Joko being eaten alive, in his own palace is very unlikely. If anything I'd wager he planned all of this. A plot I would like to see is him somehow coming back, being the Resurection of Joko, to fight the true evil that is the Commander, or at least how Palawan propaganda would make it out to be. By the sound of things, Joko is trying to become the hero, by throwing the Commander under the chariot. The fact that Joko was devoured by a scion of the Crystal Dragon, is also very convinient, marking him as a martyr among those that are still loyal to the God-King.

Just a disclaimer: This is all speculation <3

tl;dr: He will be back in one form or another.

@Arden.7480 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:I would extend this story to the final or penultimate episode. Konig wrote an excellent post on how Joko needed more screen time and why characters like lazarus and Joko deserve so much more than what they get - ie mini boss status, thrown away just for the sake if a quick closure.

The story of Joko, elona and the plague was immediate and important enough to be given much more time than it was. GW2 is full of unfulfilled stories and the hope was Joko, bring so entrenched in the franchise would not suffer the same fate as many other plots

I will certainly concede that the cinematic and dialogue was indeed exceptional, well until Aurene turned up to ruin it.

@Randulf.7614 said:

@Arden.7480 said:

@Randulf.7614 said:I would extend this story to the final or penultimate episode. Konig wrote an excellent post on how Joko needed more screen time and why characters like lazarus and Joko deserve so much more than what they get - ie mini boss status, thrown away just for the sake if a quick closure.

The story of Joko, elona and the plague was immediate and important enough to be given much more time than it was. GW2 is full of unfulfilled stories and the hope was Joko, bring so entrenched in the franchise would not suffer the same fate as many other plots

Jup. I know they needed something big to kill him, and yes I believe he is dead now. But I would have apreciated if we just had a second round with the lich then kill him for good. Or maybe a cinematic, where all our friends rush in and everyone works together to deal the final blow(I know, ripped off of the last 10 years of marvel/dc/sw/st movies, but hey it works ;)).

Obviously we move on to the actual big bad of this narrative, Kralkatorik, and finding a way to stop him without destroying the planet.

i liked it because it was unexpected. I hate the "power rangers" endings when good beats evil with friendship and the power of love. Aurene was badass

I think the ending was rushed. The whole instance was fun, Joko's last dialogue was brilliant - until Aurene came. Finally someone told the commander they aren't a hero and how funny it was everyone was buying what Joko sold, namely that he did all the stuff the commander aktually did. The PC aktually became a grey character. Just imagine as ending of this last instance that Joko told us those things while the commander only was able to listen. And then we get this "And scene" from the trailer and Joko kicks us out of that palace thing of his. It would have all just been a little game for him and he even told us the whole fight how bad we are so in his eyes we aren't a worthy enemy. And then imagine he just set this fight up because he needed a distraction. After he kicked us out it would have been amazing if we got a small trailer of how ships with the third generation scarab plague on bord sailed off to Tyria. That would have been an ending I'd like because the scarab plague would aktually threaten Tyria. But now we had a few seconds creen time for the third generation before the ghosts dealt with it off-screen.I really liked Joko as enemy and I really liked the instances of this chapter but I heavily dislike the ending.

The dialogues with companions after Joko Death, suggest that role of Aurene/Commander would be put in question in future. Rox talk something about "dont let the fight define themselfes". Canach especulate about Aurene. Taimi talks about the ghosts, and the rift, suggesting that last one can cause trouble.

I think going for Kralkatorrik is the next logical step, however, considering what happened, I really do think that Episode 4 should deal with the aftermath of what happened in Episode 3.First off, Elona is a nation right? And nation needs a leader. So far, Joko has been the ruler. But what now? Who's going to take his place now? I think this is the best time for the Order of Shadows to play a role again. Their main purpose was to end Joko's reign after all (at least so some of them claimed), so now, when he's gone, they might want to step in, trying to seize the power in Elona, and we might find out that they might not be such good guys as they presented themselves (there were already some hints about their shadowy motives). Then we have another group that wanted to see Joko gone... the Sunspears. Now, both sides want to see Elona reborn, but both most likely in a different way. There's just so much to deal with now that Joko's become a dragon's dinner. Going directly for Kralky would hurt the story I believe.

So, what I would like to see in Episode 4:

• Another map in Kourna, north of the last one, containing places like the original Chantry of Secrets that so many people wanted to visit, fortress of Jahai, the place where Turai Ossa defeated Joko, and so on...
• Order of Shadows stepping in, revealing their true motives, possibly getting in conflict with us...
• A conflict about who will take the place as Elona's ruler... we might have a conflict between the Sunspears and their allies (us, and maybe also the original Order of Whispers?), Order of Shadows, and some remaining Awakened officers who, with their master gone, saw their chance to seize the power themselves...
• Learning something more about Joko, like his origin, maybe even some of his motives/knowledge that we had no idea about...
• Either at the end of Episode 4, or in Episode 5, Kralky will cause harm again, reminding us what a threat he is, and finally shifting the story focus towards him...

Side villain or not, Joko had an impact on Elona,Will there be at least some party?What are you suspears will do now that their nemesis is gone?What will be the fate of Tahlkora and other notable awakened?Will there be revenge on the non-awakened who have allied with Joko?In Kourna we deliver a traitor to the care of the sunspears.

@"Lurana.7506" said:Finally someone told the commander they aren't a hero and how funny it was everyone was buying what Joko sold, namely that he did all the stuff the commander aktually did. The PC aktually became a grey character.Unfortunately, no. Don't fall for his little twists and tricks there. :)As much as the PC should be called out on their habit of throwing the world into chaos without much consideration, that's not really what Joko did here.

He does take credit for the PCs achievements, true. And he is being viewed as a villain, whereas the PC is a "hero", also true. However, he is not seen as a villain for killing elder dragons. Quite the opposite. He was actually using the PCs achievements to make himself appear as a hero to the Elonians. Everything that makes him a villain is stuff he did himself.

That ending monologue was a nice try, though, and it did have some truth to it.

we will figure out how to replace an elder dragon and fix the zhaitan/mordremoth fallout

Praise Joko, he will return!

@"Fenella.2634" said:Unfortunately, no. Don't fall for his little twists and tricks there. :)As much as the PC should be called out on their habit of throwing the world into chaos without much consideration, that's not really what Joko did here.

He does take credit for the PCs achievements, true. And he is being viewed as a villain, whereas the PC is a "hero", also true. However, he is not seen as a villain for killing elder dragons. Quite the opposite. He was actually using the PCs achievements to make himself appear as a hero to the Elonians. Everything that makes him a villain is stuff he did himself.

That ending monologue was a nice try, though, and it did have some truth to it.

Sure, I didn't want to say he was seen as a villain for killing elder dragons :) You're right, that wasn't the reason. What I was trying to say ist this: because he told the Commander that people believed him, who was seen as someone who loved bringing chaos, one might think about the Commander as a grey character because they brought so much chaos to the world. Of course it's his perspective because he knew about the importance of elder dragons and called the Commander stupid for killing them. But I loved how Joko told the Commander they are a villain but not because the Commander fought against Joko (then he wouldn't have been a villain in reality but only for Joko) but because they killed the elder dragons and therefor being a threat for everyone in Tyria.I would like the story to explore morally grey areas and Joko saying this to the Commander was one step in the right direction - before he was killed.

This said I totally agree with you! Maybe I didn't express what I was trying to say properly :)

@Lurana.7506 said:I would like the story to explore morally grey areas and Joko saying this to the Commander was one step in the right direction - before he was killed.

This said I totally agree with you! Maybe I didn't express what I was trying to say properly :)Yup, totally. Still, he was just trashtalking in this scene. See, even though he says and knows killing elder dragons is not a very smart thing to do - which, btw, is easy to say in retrospect - he still claims to have killed them himself. A little contradictory, isn't he?He was not really making a point here, unfortunately, but just trying to confuse the PC. I wish there had been more to it and I wish the PC will start actually thinking about their impact at some point, but for now they seem to be as sure of their heroship as ever. Well, we'll see. Maybe another episode and another team of writers will be a bit smarter with that. Someday.

Paul Joko will be back. I can't see him being completely gone after this episode.

Personally, I feel as if this whole Season hasn't been planned out in full. I'm sure they made a roadmap like: 'Episodes 1, 2 and 3 focus on Joko. Episodes 4, 5 and 6 focus on Kralkatorrik', but aside from that, everything feels so disjointed and rushed. Some things feel weak in development, and other things feel too focused on for no real reason. If this comes from the fact that each Team has its own sub-team of writers, they really need to change how this works. They need to have the same team of writers doing the whole narrative, with the same quality control. It just feels as if there's limited communication between the various Teams, which is strange for an episodic storyline, which relies on a lot of moving parts working cohesively.

The irony is that the ranking of best to worst in terms of story IMO is: Episode 1, Episode 2, and then Episode 3 as the worst. The way to prove if this 'sub-team of writers' theory is correct is for Episode 4 to be the best of the Kralkatorrik chapters, and Episode 6 to be the worst. The issue that we have now is that they're so deep into development with the other chapters that it'll be difficult to actually change anything to do with the story, so I'd prepare to expect more of the same writing style, and loose ends that'll never be finished. Such as: The Re-organisation of Elona, The Sunspears, The Awakened's future, The backstory of Palawa Joko, The Exalted presence within the Crystal Desert, The Scarab Plague, The presence of the Asura in Fahranur, The Dwarven Ruins, How Joko was aware of the importance of the Dragons in our context...

I feel like this rushed story-telling is actually detrimental to the game's future. Guild Wars 2's world doesn't feel expansive, like an MMO or standard RPG should. It looks pretty, it has interesting creature designs, but it doesn't feel alive. The biggest problem with the Episode is actually the Joko cutscene. It's amazing, and really shows off a darker side to Guild Wars 2. However, now that we know that they can do that, we're just left wanting more of it. And we all know that it's not going to happen. It's back to a standard Disney adventure with family-friendly characters and representation for the sake of representation. Representation only works when the characters are hindered by their 'issue', it's wrong to glorify the issues and make them have no consequences. Gorrik is the obvious example. Gorrik doesn't have a flaw, and his supposed flaw doesn't prevent him from doing X and Y.

It's the sort of representation that can be summed up in this example: Daniel has lost a leg, but he has a magi-tech leg so he can walk properly. For the entirety of the story, Daniel's magi-tech leg won't short-circuit or break, because it's warded by a magical barrier. Daniel's an Asura, he can do this, duh. In any other story, Daniel would try to leap somewhere to avoid something inside a volcano, and the leg might overheat and stop working, meaning that he'd be hit by the object and suffer huge injuries. In Guild Wars 2, this wouldn't happen. He'd leap to safety, with no consequences. Does this sound a bit familiar?

Living World Season 3 Episode 5: Taimi is crippled. She has a Golem called Scruffy. Scruffy negates all of Taimi's issues. Scruffy carries Taimi into a volcano, but it's fine because he has a protective shield that prevents him from over-heating. Scruffy helps Taimi to avoid every bit of damage from Balthazar's hounds. Taimi and the Commander save the day, and it all ends happily.

Living World Season 4 Episode 3: Gorrik is imprisoned. The supposed issue that hinders him is his inability to adhere to social situations, he's more likely to be rude than the average person. In the Trial, this weakness is completely undermined by the fact that the Trial relies on the Commander. From the Wiki (obviously): 'He is on the autistic spectrum, often causing him to be misunderstood.' The problem is that it's not obvious enough. They try to play on this with:

Gorrik: And if I DON'T get out, you'll have massive casualties on your hands.Councilor Mayameen: Are—are you THREATENING me?

The issue with this is that he's not being misunderstood. It's just that Councilor Mayameen is actually the issue. She's trying to politicise his words, and turn them into threats. She has a political agenda to push off the larger powers in an independent storyline, and by making the Asura out to be enemies of Amnoon, she gets what she wants. He's just stating the obvious, in this dialogue about the Plague. Joko has the Plague, if he doesn't get out to research it, people will die. Everyone understands that. This is an example of bad writing, and where representation fails. In this instance, he's just autistic for the sake of having an autistic character in the Guild Wars 2 universe. A better example to make it more obvious is:

Gorrik: And if I DON'T get out, I can assure you that this Plague will find its way down your throat and silence every single person in this room.Councillor Mayameen: Are - are you THREATENING me?

I believe that my example shows that Gorrik's trying to state the obvious, but it sounds almost villainous. It's said with unintentional malice, and a rejection of the judicial process, making his case much worse. There's no way for Mayameen to not react in any other way, because it can be seen as an overt threat. It's a small difference, but it changes the entire scene. The problem with the 'massive casualties' aspect is that it doesn't feel firm enough. If Gorrik starts using his research to state how people die with the Plague, it shows that he's actually found the symptoms of each generation, and he's using it to free himself from imprisonment. However, he's used it to unintentionally threaten the Judge, whilst scientifically unearthing the stages of death from Joko's newest weapon to dramatise the narrative.

Though, now I'm rambling about multiple issues. Hopefully, you find some of like what I've said to be plausible. :D

I have a feeling the enemy for the rest of S3 is going to be Aurene. Rather, sorting out her aggression issues so she doesn't become another Elder Dragon. And we might have just ticked off the Order of Shadows, but who knows. The fact that the Olmakhan played such a role also makes me think we might be dealing with the Flame Legion later on.