[Spoiler] So, what now?

[ThatOddOne.4387]

Anyone who says the Elder Dragons are more interesting antagonists than actual people aka Joko, Lazarus and even Balthazar don't know what an interesting villain is.

An interesting villain has motivations beyond "eat magic, get fat, sleep, wake up, eat magic, get fat, sleep" repeatedly.

Joko's speech to the Commander in an example of this, what he says is, at the end of the day, true. It -was- monumentally stupid to kill two Elder Dragons and a God (Ex-God or not). And the reason he took credit for the Commander's deeds was simply because he would never do it himself. You'll never get an Elder Dragon holding up a mirror to the Commander in such a fashion. Mordremoth came close but we all know that kind of Elder Dragon won't be used again as Mordremoth's whole 'Mind' thing was part of his sphere, we won't be outright holding a conversation with any of the other Dragons I'm pretty sure.

Actually, scratch previous statement, there was an interesting Elder Dragon: Mordremoth because, surprise surprise, he talked. Kralkatorrik is not as interesting as Mordremoth, Joko or Balthazar, sorry.

[Feanor.2358]

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Anyone who says the Elder Dragons are more interesting antagonists than actual people aka Joko, Lazarus and even Balthazar don't know what an interesting villain is.

An interesting villain has motivations beyond "eat magic, get fat, sleep, wake up, eat magic, get fat, sleep" repeatedly.

Joko's speech to the Commander in an example of this, what he says is, at the end of the day, true. It -was- monumentally stupid to kill two Elder Dragons and a God (Ex-God or not). And the reason he took credit for the Commander's deeds was simply because he would never do it himself. You'll never get an Elder Dragon holding up a mirror to the Commander in such a fashion. Mordremoth came close but we all know that kind of Elder Dragon won't be used again as Mordremoth's whole 'Mind' thing was part of his sphere, we won't be outright holding a conversation with any of the other Dragons I'm pretty sure.

Actually, scratch previous statement, there was an interesting Elder Dragon: Mordremoth because, surprise surprise, he talked. Kralkatorrik is not as interesting as Mordremoth, Joko or Balthazar, sorry.

Yeah, because "rawwwwrrrr, must kill dragons to steal their power" is the pinnacle of storytelling. Also "I was dumb enough to trust a fallen god who left me to rot in the Domain of the Lost, then you didn't help me so I'm using a biological weapon of mass destruction to eradicate your kind from the face of the planet". Talk about monumental stupidity. Oh, and that little speech he gave? Which part of it came as a surprise to you?

Sorry, Kralkatorrik is more interesting than either of these. For one simple reason - we can't afford to kill him.

[Fenella.2634]

I wonder if Joko really knew of the EDs' nature beforehand, or if this little speech was just another bluff. It's so easy to call killing dragons stupid now. A few years ago, however, it seemed to be a very logical and good route for the Pact and the Commander to take. The players and Joko now scold the PC for killing dragons. Think back a few years ago, when our main concern was the order in which to kill dragons. :)So, given Joko's general intellect, his ressources and his habit of tweaking facts to fit his agenda, I am far from certain he knew anything more than we did until recently.

[Walhalla.5473]

@Fenella.2634 said:I wonder if Joko really knew of the EDs' nature beforehand, or if this little speech was just another bluff. It's so easy to call killing dragons stupid now. A few years ago, however, it seemed to be a very logical and good route for the Pact and the Commander to take. The players and Joko now scold the PC for killing dragons. Think back a few years ago, when our main concern was the order in which to kill dragons. :)So, given Joko's general intellect, his ressources and his habit of tweaking facts to fit his agenda, I am far from certain he knew anything more than we did until recently.

The only way to know if Joko knows more than he lets on would be to focus more on him, to get more knowledge on this matter. That Lich is quite old and we don't know where he came from. Also he knew that the commander would not believe any claim he would make and telling the commander true facts while knowing that they would never believe him would also be a method to screw with them.

Sadly Joko is now fertilizer and the only way to get to know more about him would be through records or something...

[Vyrek.5019]

I like the idea that we can still kill the elder dragons, but Aurene is our ace in the hole. She can absorb their magic and take their place in the balance of things when they are gone. I think that was Glint's plan all along. The big question is if our bond is strong enough to keep her from being corrupted by it all.

[Walhalla.5473]

@elitegamerz.4965 said:I like the idea that we can still kill the elder dragons, but Aurene is our ace in the hole. She can absorb their magic and take their place in the balance of things when they are gone.

And the World would still be gone.

[Vyrek.5019]

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@elitegamerz.4965 said:I like the idea that we can still kill the elder dragons, but Aurene is our ace in the hole. She can absorb their magic and take their place in the balance of things when they are gone.

And the World would still be gone.

Killing the dragons isn't the problem, its the massive release of raw magic into the world that is causing harm. The dragons I think are basically the primordial keepers of magic on Tyria. They aren't good or evil, they are forces of nature. They are there to keep the magic in the world in check. Too much of a surplus of magic and Tyria tears itself apart. Every few thousands of years when the supply of magic in the world gets too high they awaken, consume it to maintain the balance, and go back to sleep. As long as something is keeping the balance by eating magic Tyria will be fine. That something I think will end up being Aurene.

[Walhalla.5473]

@elitegamerz.4965 said:

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@elitegamerz.4965 said:I like the idea that we can still kill the elder dragons, but Aurene is our ace in the hole. She can absorb their magic and take their place in the balance of things when they are gone.

And the World would still be gone.

Killing the dragons isn't the problem, its the massive release of raw magic into the world that is causing harm. The dragons I think are basically the primordial keepers of magic on Tyria. They aren't good or evil, they are forces of nature. They are there to keep the magic in the world in check. Too much of a surplus of magic and Tyria tears itself apart. Every few thousands of years when the supply of magic in the world gets too high they awaken, consume it to maintain the balance, and go back to sleep. As long as something is keeping the balance by eating magic Tyria will be fine. That something I think will end up being Aurene.

It isn't just magic. Otherwise Balthazar killing Kralkatorrik and instantly absorbing its magic would be awesome or we could just use Asura magitech to sore it somewhere. But the Dragons are bound to the All and with it basically the pillars of the world and we wrecked just 2 of them and with this destabilized the world. Also Tyria got even more unstable after Kralkatorrik munched up the rest of Balthazar's magic.

While the balance of magic is important to Tyria, its not the only thing that can throw the world out of balance.

[maxwelgm.4315]

@elitegamerz.4965 said:

@Walhalla.5473 said:

@elitegamerz.4965 said:I like the idea that we can still kill the elder dragons, but Aurene is our ace in the hole. She can absorb their magic and take their place in the balance of things when they are gone.

And the World would still be gone.

Killing the dragons isn't the problem, its the massive release of raw magic into the world that is causing harm. The dragons I think are basically the primordial keepers of magic on Tyria. They aren't good or evil, they are forces of nature. They are there to keep the magic in the world in check. Too much of a surplus of magic and Tyria tears itself apart. Every few thousands of years when the supply of magic in the world gets too high they awaken, consume it to maintain the balance, and go back to sleep. As long as something is keeping the balance by eating magic Tyria will be fine. That something I think will end up being Aurene.

Both your view and Walhalla's are going all the way back to the Movement of the World and to the visions we got from the Machine all the way back then. By now the developers seem to have left this view for good (and the writers are also not the same if I recall, I'm sure Ree has left for one and it shows since this season). The Elder Dragons being a force of nature thing or being particularly precious to the balance of the world is just a misconception on behalf of Tyrians not having much to go by other than their mythology. Mordremoth, which is the most interesting ED of them all, seems to have his own views of the world and yes, he is pretty damn evil himself and he does have a clear moral compass. He's not acting out of instinct or because "lol nature". He deliberately taunts you and very purposefully organize and spread his Mordrem with meaningful levels of coordination. His relationship to the Sylvari, to the Dream and to the Pale tree are still not completely clear, but we know he's a willing agent in all of it. If anything their role of keeping magic in check inside Tyria is more accidental than a "greater thing" as far as we know, and our dear Asurans ex machinae will probably eventually find a way to replace them permanently. They are no longer acting nor being treated as cosmic horrors not even speaking in literature terms. Unfortunately they have already killed the ED that would have been the best to present us with more insight about their own nature (Mordremoth, in some of his last lines, does seem to believe he is the world in itself, and asks a resounding "what have you done?" to the PC when he is close to death). My only hope for this particular plot ever developing is if the sphere of mind Mordremoth had was absorbed by Jormag or the DSD.

[ThatOddOne.4387]

@Feanor.2358 said:

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Anyone who says the Elder Dragons are more interesting antagonists than actual people aka Joko, Lazarus and even Balthazar don't know what an interesting villain is.

An interesting villain has motivations beyond "eat magic, get fat, sleep, wake up, eat magic, get fat, sleep" repeatedly.

Joko's speech to the Commander in an example of this, what he says is, at the end of the day, true. It -was- monumentally stupid to kill two Elder Dragons and a God (Ex-God or not). And the reason he took credit for the Commander's deeds was simply because he would never do it himself. You'll never get an Elder Dragon holding up a mirror to the Commander in such a fashion. Mordremoth came close but we all know that kind of Elder Dragon won't be used again as Mordremoth's whole 'Mind' thing was part of his sphere, we won't be outright holding a conversation with any of the other Dragons I'm pretty sure.

Actually, scratch previous statement, there was an interesting Elder Dragon: Mordremoth because, surprise surprise, he talked. Kralkatorrik is not as interesting as Mordremoth, Joko or Balthazar, sorry.

Yeah, because "rawwwwrrrr, must kill dragons to steal their power" is the pinnacle of storytelling. Also "I was dumb enough to trust a fallen god who left me to rot in the Domain of the Lost, then you didn't help me so I'm using a biological weapon of mass destruction to eradicate your kind from the face of the planet". Talk about monumental stupidity. Oh, and that little speech he gave? Which part of it came as a surprise to you?

Sorry, Kralkatorrik is more interesting than either of these. For one simple reason - we can't afford to kill him.

You're correct, "steal dragon power" would be just as bad. But it's not just that, the reasoning and the background behind it is also vastly more interesting, there is nothing else to "eat magic, sleep, wake up, repeat" that the dragons do. -Nothing-. It's a natural cycle. A natural disaster. Boring. Actual characters with motivations and reasons are more interesting - And definitely ones that actually have a point to what they are saying and what they are trying to do. A justification beyond "That's just how the world works bro".

Hence why all the humanoid enemies so far have been far more interesting than the Elder Dragons.

None of Joko's speech came as a surprise (Where did I say it was a surprise?) precisely because he's the first one in game to outright say to the Commander they are messing it up by killing the dragons and even an ex-God. Which is what everyone observing the story (us) has been saying this whole time. Actually seeing it given a voice and brought up in the story is nice. And one of the few saving graces of this episode.

So yeah, nice try, but strawman'ing my argument so you can try and counter it didn't work.

[castlemanic.3198]

@"Feanor.2358" said:Sorry, Kralkatorrik is more interesting than either of these. For one simple reason - we can't afford to kill him.

But that doesn't make Kralkatorrik interesting. Kralkatorrik has the personality of a hurricane in this circumstance. There's nothing that is specific to Kralkatorrik that makes him interesting the way the motivations of Joko (force this entire continent to bow down to my whims such that they make me their god-king, I'm immortal so nothing can stop me) and Balthazar (The other gods stripped me of my power because I sought a war with the elder dragons that would destroy the entire world that our followers live on, I must then regain my power at all costs and exact revenge on the rest of the pantheon) make them interesting. Kralkatorrik is only interesting because other characters have a vested interest in him and because he's a threat that cannot be dealt with directly. Kralkatorrik (as presented in the game, I haven't read Edge of Destiny) hasn't even said a word. He as no motivation (besides eating magic and branding things to... feed him more magic). By that logic, Primordus, Jormag and Bubbles are equally as interesting because they all are massive forces of nature that can't be killed if we want to have a planet to live on. They, in and of themselves, as unique entities, aren't as interesting and don't have motivations like Joko, Balthazar, Lazarus and other characters of the franchise that make them interesting.

Character depth makes interesting characters, not whether or not we can afford to kill that character. I agree that the situation surrounding Kralkatorrik is interesting. Can we afford the massive casualties that are about to ensue because Kralkatorrik has become empowered, or do we risk destroying the entire world? That is an interesting situation, it's a dilemma that arenanet carefully need to think about. It does not solely reflect on Kralkatorrik's personality, as it's a dilemma that faces us about all the elder dragons.

The hurricane comparison is intentional btw. We either choose to weather the storm and suffer major but localized destruction, or nuke the hurricane and risk destroying all of human civilization.

I wasn't kidding.

[Fenom.9457]

@elitegamerz.4965 said:I like the idea that we can still kill the elder dragons, but Aurene is our ace in the hole. She can absorb their magic and take their place in the balance of things when they are gone. I think that was Glint's plan all along. The big question is if our bond is strong enough to keep her from being corrupted by it all.

First, we don’t know if aurene is as powerful as any elder dragon (or rather, if she can be later) I’d say the reveal that she’s related to Kralk is a setup that enough magic can make her ED level, but even then she’s only the solution for one dragon. If we try to jam 4 dragons of magic in her she’ll probably die, release the magic, then we all die. So we need to find 3 more dragons, artifacts, or other beings to take dragon power. I for one would love an expansion into entirely new lands with no lore precedent (to help explain why we never heard of things we find there), and the land has lots of “regular” (not ED level) dragons. I mean, where are they? Every other fantasy setting has thousands but there are like 3 in guild wars - kuunavang, glint, and I know I’m forgetting some (I don’t count vlast and aurene here because I’m talking about answering the questions of where dragons are and we know they’re from glint). Wyverns have been amazing to see (hope we see more and get more lore for them), but that’s still only one species (with subspecies to be fair). A land of dragons expansion would be amazing. Anyway I expect our solution will be something else. Artifacts are unlikely, so what 3 life forms could absorb magic from primordus joe mag and DSD?

[derd.6413]

@Fenom.9457 said:

@elitegamerz.4965 said:I like the idea that we can still kill the elder dragons, but Aurene is our ace in the hole. She can absorb their magic and take their place in the balance of things when they are gone. I think that was Glint's plan all along. The big question is if our bond is strong enough to keep her from being corrupted by it all.

First, we don’t know if aurene is as powerful as any elder dragon (or rather, if she can be later) I’d say the reveal that she’s related to Kralk is a setup that enough magic can make her ED level, but even then she’s only the solution for one dragon. If we try to jam 4 dragons of magic in her she’ll probably die, release the magic, then we all die. So we need to find 3 more dragons, artifacts, or other beings to take dragon power. I for one would love an expansion into entirely new lands with no lore precedent (to help explain why we never heard of things we find there), and the land has lots of “regular” (not ED level) dragons. I mean, where are they? Every other fantasy setting has thousands but there are like 3 in guild wars - kuunavang, glint, and I know I’m forgetting some (I don’t count vlast and aurene here because I’m talking about answering the questions of where dragons are and we know they’re from glint). Wyverns have been amazing to see (hope we see more and get more lore for them), but that’s still only one species (with subspecies to be fair). A land of dragons expansion would be amazing. Anyway I expect our solution will be something else. Artifacts are unlikely, so what 3 life forms could absorb magic from primordus joe mag and DSD?

we need to find 5 DE magic vessels. mordry and zhaitans magic are still tearing up the place. but in POF (in the forgotten cut-scene) it was specifically mentioned they wanted to use glint's offspring to replace the dragons. and when have the forgotten ever been wrong?

[Fenom.9457]

@derd.6413 said:

@Fenom.9457 said:

@elitegamerz.4965 said:I like the idea that we can still kill the elder dragons, but Aurene is our ace in the hole. She can absorb their magic and take their place in the balance of things when they are gone. I think that was Glint's plan all along. The big question is if our bond is strong enough to keep her from being corrupted by it all.

First, we don’t know if aurene is as powerful as any elder dragon (or rather, if she can be later) I’d say the reveal that she’s related to Kralk is a setup that enough magic can make her ED level, but even then she’s only the solution for one dragon. If we try to jam 4 dragons of magic in her she’ll probably die, release the magic, then we all die. So we need to find 3 more dragons, artifacts, or other beings to take dragon power. I for one would love an expansion into entirely new lands with no lore precedent (to help explain why we never heard of things we find there), and the land has lots of “regular” (not ED level) dragons. I mean, where are they? Every other fantasy setting has thousands but there are like 3 in guild wars - kuunavang, glint, and I know I’m forgetting some (I don’t count vlast and aurene here because I’m talking about answering the questions of where dragons are and we know they’re from glint). Wyverns have been amazing to see (hope we see more and get more lore for them), but that’s still only one species (with subspecies to be fair). A land of dragons expansion would be amazing. Anyway I expect our solution will be something else. Artifacts are unlikely, so what 3 life forms could absorb magic from primordus joe mag and DSD?

we need to find 5 DE magic vessels. mordry and zhaitans magic are still tearing up the place. but in POF (in the forgotten cut-scene) it was specifically mentioned they wanted to use glint's offspring to replace the dragons. and when have the forgotten ever been wrong?

I’m not sure about 5, but maybe 4. The world could deal with what’s going on now but it would be better if it was less. 4 or 5 would work. And the forgotten wanted to use glints children yes, but only aurene is left. They’ve never been wrong, no, but things have changed since they died out. All the other eggs died

[Lurana.7506]

@"ThatOddOne.4387" said:Anyone who says the Elder Dragons are more interesting antagonists than actual people aka Joko, Lazarus and even Balthazar don't know what an interesting villain is.

An interesting villain has motivations beyond "eat magic, get fat, sleep, wake up, eat magic, get fat, sleep" repeatedly.

Joko's speech to the Commander in an example of this, what he says is, at the end of the day, true. It -was- monumentally stupid to kill two Elder Dragons and a God (Ex-God or not). And the reason he took credit for the Commander's deeds was simply because he would never do it himself. You'll never get an Elder Dragon holding up a mirror to the Commander in such a fashion. Mordremoth came close but we all know that kind of Elder Dragon won't be used again as Mordremoth's whole 'Mind' thing was part of his sphere, we won't be outright holding a conversation with any of the other Dragons I'm pretty sure.

Actually, scratch previous statement, there was an interesting Elder Dragon: Mordremoth because, surprise surprise, he talked. Kralkatorrik is not as interesting as Mordremoth, Joko or Balthazar, sorry.

Exactly. Joko made a much better villain than the elder dragons - maybe put Mordremoth aside because of the mind-thingy and his control over Sylvari. A villain needs to have a personality, I mean the elder dragons are a natural desaster in a way. Natural desasters aren't good but they aren't villains because they lack personality and motives. And you can't hate them for what they do but you can hate Joko for what he did. At least, we could if there would have been any consequences or they wouldn't have made his threats a bluff.

@"Fenella.2634" said:I wonder if Joko really knew of the EDs' nature beforehand, or if this little speech was just another bluff. It's so easy to call killing dragons stupid now. A few years ago, however, it seemed to be a very logical and good route for the Pact and the Commander to take. The players and Joko now scold the PC for killing dragons. Think back a few years ago, when our main concern was the order in which to kill dragons. :)So, given Joko's general intellect, his ressources and his habit of tweaking facts to fit his agenda, I am far from certain he knew anything more than we did until recently.

For me it doesn't matter if he knew beforehand but I liked how finally somebody stepped up against the Commander in a personal way. The Commander is treated too much like a hero by everyone and it was nice to see that Joko changed that.

Like ThatOddOne said: "You'll never get an Elder Dragon holding up a mirror to the Commander in such a fashion."

[AegisFLCL.7623]

@"Lurana.7506" said:I think the ending was rushed. The whole instance was fun, Joko's last dialogue was brilliant - until Aurene came. Finally someone told the commander they aren't a hero and how funny it was everyone was buying what Joko sold, namely that he did all the stuff the commander aktually did. The PC aktually became a grey character. Just imagine as ending of this last instance that Joko told us those things while the commander only was able to listen. And then we get this "And scene" from the trailer and Joko kicks us out of that palace thing of his. It would have all just been a little game for him and he even told us the whole fight how bad we are so in his eyes we aren't a worthy enemy. And then imagine he just set this fight up because he needed a distraction. After he kicked us out it would have been amazing if we got a small trailer of how ships with the third generation scarab plague on bord sailed off to Tyria. That would have been an ending I'd like because the scarab plague would aktually threaten Tyria. But now we had a few seconds creen time for the third generation before the ghosts dealt with it off-screen.I really liked Joko as enemy and I really liked the instances of this chapter but I heavily dislike the ending.

The story would actually be interesting if something like this happened.

I was ticked off they started writing about Joko when Kralk was supposed to be an immediate threat, and three episodes later alongside weak dialogue/writing, Joko received almost no screen time and was potentially written out just as poorly as Lazarus.

It may just be me, but the way we've had to deal with dragons and the story related to them has turned them into the most BORING villains i've ever experienced in a game. I understand the conflicts with bringing the gods back into the limelight due to GW2 being based around multiple races, but anything is better than this slay/remove the dragon's crusade.

[Tanith.5264]

Well, folks, we had just finished a lengthy instance loaded with deceptive illusions, complete with a signet ring to dispel them.

Did it occur to anyone to punch that thing during Aurene's, ah, meal to make sure that was Joko she was chomping on?

(No, I didn't think of it either. I was too busy laughing at the reactions of the NPC's.)

[maxwelgm.4315]

@Tanith.5264 said:Well, folks, we had just finished a lengthy instance loaded with deceptive illusions, complete with a signet ring to dispel them.

Did it occur to anyone to punch that thing during Aurene's, ah, meal to make sure that was Joko she was chomping on?

(No, I didn't think of it either. I was too busy laughing at the reactions of the NPC's.)

Yes I have spammed the ring through and through during all of the instance, during the fight, after the cutscene, and long after every dialogue was done all the way back to the second to last room. It did not show anything other than Joko himself during all that time. I did not go all the way back to the entrance of the instance after it was beaten though. Maybe there were some easter eggs to be found there, but I highly doubt it. This particular writing team didn't do anything like that nor in LS3E3 nor in LS3E6. They just murdered some GW1 character and moved on like it never happened, so I have no reason to think the trend will not go on.

[Aaron Ansari.1604]

Do we know if the Living World teams are still going in the same order this season, or even if the same people are still on them? S3E6 was eleven months ago, S3E3 was nineteen months ago, and the company seems to have gone through considerable turnover in that time. For myself, this episode didn't feel like either of those two: the writing and mechanics were both solid, and going through the map didn't feel like drudgery and a mandatory grind. The only complaints that I'm seeing here are that Joko died, it happened through alleged draconis ex machina, and that no character we're invested in died, but I'd imagine those decisions are way above the level that a single living world team could decide on. I feel, all told, that the writers here did an admirable job making the best they could of a problematic story beat.

For what it's worth, I also agree with Braham. If someone who we need to kill is unkillable due to powerful magic that we don't understand, feeding them to an entity that consumes magic is the obvious thing to try. If it works, it makes sense that it'd work; if it doesn't, then we can scratch the idea off the list, but we wouldn't know in the few minutes we are allowed after Aurene finishes eating. It could've been foreshadowed more, perhaps with Aurene feeding on other Awakened and demonstrating that she drains the magic animating them, but that drives us into a thornier issue of why Joko didn't plan around Aurene after showing what she was capable of. I think they picked the lesser of two evils here.

On the conversation of what makes antagonists interesting... I don't get why the different views are being bandied about like they're mutually exclusive. An antagonist's personality can be interesting. The challenge of dealing with an antagonist in an unconventional way can be interesting. An antagonist's relevance to, and impact on, the overarching narrative can be interesting. None of those statements invalidates any of the others. Nor does the fact that different people will find different things interesting. Of course focusing on something that one person finds interesting and another does not will leave one of those people bored! When that thing is left behind, one person will be glad to be moving on and the other will be disappointed. That's just how opinions are. Voicing them is excellent, and can constitute valuable feedback for the devs, but why go to so much trouble to talk others out of their positions, or tell them that their opinions are wrong?

[Tyson.5160]

@Aaron Ansari.1604 said:Do we know if the Living World teams are still going in the same order this season, or even if the same people are still on them? S3E6 was eleven months ago, S3E3 was nineteen months ago, and the company seems to have gone through considerable turnover in that time. For myself, this episode didn't feel like either of those two: the writing and mechanics were both solid, and going through the map didn't feel like drudgery and a mandatory grind. The only complaints that I'm seeing here are that Joko died, it happened through alleged draconis ex machina, and that no character we're invested in died, but I'd imagine those decisions are way above the level that a single living world team could decide on. I feel, all told, that the writers here did an admirable job making the best they could of a problematic story beat.

For what it's worth, I also agree with Braham. If someone who we need to kill is unkillable due to powerful magic that we don't understand, feeding them to an entity that consumes magic is the obvious thing to try. If it works, it makes sense that it'd work; if it doesn't, then we can scratch the idea off the list, but we wouldn't know in the few minutes we are allowed after Aurene finishes eating. It could've been foreshadowed more, perhaps with Aurene feeding on other Awakened and demonstrating that she drains the magic animating them, but that drives us into a thornier issue of why Joko didn't plan around Aurene after showing what she was capable of. I think they picked the lesser of two evils here.

On the conversation of what makes antagonists interesting... I don't get why the different views are being bandied about like they're mutually exclusive. An antagonist's personality can be interesting. The challenge of dealing with an antagonist in an unconventional way can be interesting. An antagonist's relevance to, and impact on, the overarching narrative can be interesting. None of those statements invalidates any of the others. Nor does the fact that different people will find different things interesting. Of course focusing on something that one person finds interesting and another does not will leave one of those people bored! When that thing is left behind, one person will be glad to be moving on and the other will be disappointed. That's just how opinions are. Voicing them is excellent, and can constitute valuable feedback for the devs, but why go to so much trouble to talk others out of their positions, or tell them that their opinions are wrong?

We don’t even know what kind of magic Joko is using either, it would be interesting if Joko tries to corrupt Aurene from the inside and hijack her with his undead energy.

[Janderson.4670]

I wonder if Joko had planned for Aurene in that final fight. In the first instance, he calls us out for cheating because we had a dragon. So he was clearly aware of what Aurene was capable of. That on top of him talking about how understated is immortality really is, I feel like its possible his 'death' was just a ruse...

[Durzlla.6295]

@Janderson.4670 said:I wonder if Joko had planned for Aurene in that final fight. In the first instance, he calls us out for cheating because we had a dragon. So he was clearly aware of what Aurene was capable of. That on top of him talking about how understated is immortality really is, I feel like its possible his 'death' was just a ruse...

I'm of this boat too, especially with the whole deathy magic explosion on Aurene, not to mention i'm sure they've tried to dispell the magic holding his body together in the past and that didn't work, so i'm curious where this goes.

Worst case scenario, he's dead, but they're playing up the more animalistic side of Aurene which is a route i didn't think they'd take!

[maxwelgm.4315]

I'd like to point out that, from his last message to his loyalists, it seems pretty clear that he knows that dying to the PC (his specific wording makes me think he did realize he could become dragon poop) means his "magic has somehow become unbound", in other words, he knows that this means a final death. He doesn't go around the issue and lays it out pretty clear that the message means he is gone. In spite of that, I'm not really sure what "gone" means in this case. The most likely scenario, writers want Joko out, and Aurene ate his actual soul. If they have enough courage to do the other option though, it could be that Aurene simply ate the magic binding him to his own body (which is what a Lich is after all), therefore freeing his soul to the Underworld or even trapping it inside of herself. If Joko is really as old and as knowledgeable as he claims to be, his soul could probably grapple for Aurene's mind somehow. But bear in mind this is very unlikely and I do think that Joko is the next Malyck/Shadowstone/Exalted/Nightmare Court/Steam creatures/[insert abandoned loose plot here].

[Eekasqueak.7850]

Probably will involve dealing with the aftermath of his death, and hopefully we'll finally move on to Kralkatorric or something.

[Trevor Boyer.6524]

Hoping that wasn't the end of Joko.