3 more months at being at bottom of benchmark

Honest question, does anet actually look at the benchmarks. The only necro benchmark is 30k specing full dps, and is below support warrior at 31k with ea and banners.And what do they do, buff support warrior damage and further nerf necro.What the nerf mean in raidsFeast of corruption lost 2 stacks of tormentDhuumfire you must now wait to activate other shroud skills or lose dps.

Someone needs to be at the bottom of a list, in this case, it´s necro.Though, you can still do raids as a scourge or power-reaper, as long as you run with a dedicated group, which makes being at the bottom endurable, I guess.

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:Honest question, does anet actually look at the benchmarks. The only necro benchmark is 30k specing full dps, and is below support warrior at 31k with ea and banners.And what do they do, buff support warrior damage and further nerf necro.What the nerf mean in raidsFeast of corruption lost 2 stacks of tormentDhuumfire you must now wait to activate other shroud skills or lose dps.

where did they buff support warrior dps?

@sigur.9453 said:

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:Honest question, does anet actually look at the benchmarks. The only necro benchmark is 30k specing full dps, and is below support warrior at 31k with ea and banners.And what do they do, buff support warrior damage and further nerf necro.What the nerf mean in raidsFeast of corruption lost 2 stacks of tormentDhuumfire you must now wait to activate other shroud skills or lose dps.

They didn't, warrior got increased support option for PvP/WvW and PvE dps nerf (which isn't necessarily a bad thing)

You guys should actually try power reaper, maybe the players in my group are just bad but the numbers are comparatively decent, scored top dps on VG and competing with a weaver on gors right now

It's the bottom but.. it's still good enough.

@Blocki.4931 said:It's the bottom but.. it's still good enough.

it was on the bottom.. now no longer relevant to do benchmark for it

@Arzurag.7506 said:Someone needs to be at the bottom of a list, in this case, it´s necro.Though, you can still do raids as a scourge or power-reaper, as long as you run with a dedicated group, which makes being at the bottom endurable, I guess.

But 99% of groups don't want people , that play the worst option DPS wise.And it shouldn't be always necro at the bottom. Just remember back hot...

I dropped my necro as a main a few patches ago and switched to Mesmer for a main. Haven't regretted it yet. I think that is their general plan, honestly.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Arzurag.7506" said:Someone needs to be at the bottom of a list, in this case, it´s necro.Though, you can still do raids as a scourge or power-reaper, as long as you run with a dedicated group, which makes being at the bottom endurable, I guess.

But thats arguing a moot point. If every build had at least 50k DPS, "someone" would STILL be on the bottom of an ordered list. If you want to build a relevant argument, build it around the how far a build is from Baseline (in the case of Raids, 30k DPS seems to be the target). If every other build except Weaver is doing 31k, and the Weaver does 41k, that doesn't mean every other class automatically fails at DPS.

I would take that even further, and argue about the problem of Group comp and total DPS. I bet if they found a way to cap incoming damage on the Boss side, suddenly the incentive to slot as many high risk DPS builds as possible is gone, and the entire puzzle shifts toward fitting in as much sustain as you can while still keeping at the DPS cap.

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Arzurag.7506" said:Someone needs to be at the bottom of a list, in this case, it´s necro.Though, you can still do raids as a scourge or power-reaper, as long as you run with a dedicated group, which makes being at the bottom endurable, I guess.

It's funny because this shows where the actual elitism in this game lies: The people who believe that you can't clear raids with around 22k DPS and up. Is it great? No. But it's certainly enough.

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Arzurag.7506" said:Someone needs to be at the bottom of a list, in this case, it´s necro.Though, you can still do raids as a scourge or power-reaper, as long as you run with a dedicated group, which makes being at the bottom endurable, I guess.

See here's the thing though, in a game like WoW that has a competent balance team, almost no classes get shunned, and in cases where they do it's usually only one out of the 3 or 4 specializations which are equivalent to our elite specs. Demonology was the worst part of warlock for all of legion and even then you could still raid as a demolock and people wouldn't bitch about it as long as you did it well and didn't screw up mechanics, and if at any time you got sick of feeling subpar you could just instantly swap to affliction or destruction and do great.

@Blocki.4931 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Arzurag.7506" said:Someone needs to be at the bottom of a list, in this case, it´s necro.Though, you can still do raids as a scourge or power-reaper, as long as you run with a dedicated group, which makes being at the bottom endurable, I guess.

And here is the next problem.Even though you are able to pull that 22k golem DPS and someone else is doing 40k.In a real raid. The 22k guy will be at 11-13k and the 40k guy will do 20-30k

And 11-13 sometimes just isn't enough to kill a boss

Btw the title should be 3 more month of instakick on grouojoin in fractals and raids

@Ceit.7619 said:I dropped my necro as a main a few patches ago and switched to Mesmer for a main. Haven't regretted it yet. I think that is their general plan, honestly.

Thinking of doing the same thing. Comes a point after so many years you get tired of always being mistreated balance wise. I'm also sick of knowing that whenever Necromancer is doing decent benchmark wise it's due to gimmicks and swiftly nerfed. Happened in HoT with Lich Form minions, happened again at PoF launch with Scourge shades bugged and now with epi bouncing.

@Autumn.8043 said:

Thinking of doing the same thing. Comes a point after so many years you get tired of always being mistreated balance wise. I'm also sick of knowing that whenever Necromancer is doing decent benchmark wise it's due to gimmicks and swiftly nerfed. Happened in HoT with Lich Form minions, happened again at PoF launch with Scourge shades bugged and now with epi bouncing.

The irony to me though is that Epi-bouncing has always been able to exist. It's a core skill and it's always been strong, even when they have changed it over the years. This nerf basically just came because the raid team released a few bosses where necro shined with it, and they just couldn't have that, now could they? I hated the idea of bringing a class just because of epi, which is why I switched to Mesmer. Now they took epi from necro, it really has no desirable trait to want for a raid. Sure, you could beat raid bosses with a full necro team if they were all good at mechanics and geared, but that isn't relevant to the conversation. The conversation is BALANCE. Necro has always been viewed as a selfish class in how they lack good party buffs or utility, and yet there is no benefit for that selfish playstyle. They have bottom tier dps, no relevant party buffs, there is just no reason to bring one.

@Blocki.4931 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Arzurag.7506" said:Someone needs to be at the bottom of a list, in this case, it´s necro.Though, you can still do raids as a scourge or power-reaper, as long as you run with a dedicated group, which makes being at the bottom endurable, I guess.

Raids may also be the prime reason behind the atrocious balancing in the game. If raids never existed, perhaps the actual game balance would be better. A very small fraction of the player base participates in raids, so why build any semblance of balance around it (if that is indeed what Anet is doing). Which to me looks like they're doing when we see the meteor nerf that happened a little while ago. Which in real-time was a slight boost to dps in WvW but nerf when it comes to raids in hitting stationary targets with large hit boxes.

So perhaps the problem is raids themselves and shouldn't exist.

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Arzurag.7506" said:Someone needs to be at the bottom of a list, in this case, it´s necro.Though, you can still do raids as a scourge or power-reaper, as long as you run with a dedicated group, which makes being at the bottom endurable, I guess.

That argument is useless since skill splits between gamemodes exist though.

@Shadowmoon.7986 said:Honest question, does anet actually look at the benchmarks.

Maybe they don't.Maybe they do and choose not to balance the game around them.

Benchmarks don't show the data Anet has access to. They are extremely focused tests under set conditions that often don't paint a complete picture of how a class can actually perform.If a weaver could do 41k dps, but 98% most of them could only sustain 20 without getting smoked for a too complex rotation it wouldn't be smart to balance around the benchmarks.But if 60% of weavers were out-damaging every other damage spec by 30% then you certainly would do a balance pass. (these numbers are, of course, FMA just to illustrate)

The odds are that Arenanet has much better information than the scores from people smacking on a single golem that doesn't fight back. Odds are that data is used for balancing.

I'm not saying benchmarks have no value, but calling for buffs and nerfs based on them is what armchair devs do. Actual devs have better data and balance accordingly.

@DeadlySynz.3471 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Arzurag.7506" said:Someone needs to be at the bottom of a list, in this case, it´s necro.Though, you can still do raids as a scourge or power-reaper, as long as you run with a dedicated group, which makes being at the bottom endurable, I guess.

I have the opposite opinion. Raids are THE test for balance in PvE because they really measure the group value of various profession builds. Those with more value are in higher demand. Those with less are discarded.

We can claim that raids only measure the best builds and not misshapened ones but balancing based on the poor builds is pointless.

@Nimon.7840 said:

@Blocki.4931 said:

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Nimon.7840 said:

@"Arzurag.7506" said:Someone needs to be at the bottom of a list, in this case, it´s necro.Though, you can still do raids as a scourge or power-reaper, as long as you run with a dedicated group, which makes being at the bottom endurable, I guess.

I wasn't talking about golem, but it's a valid point.

Its easy to say that someone has to be in the bottom when necromancer was always in the bottom, lol

But still, necro is still the option when the fight needs epidemic. Maybe the problem is that people still obey stupid raid sites which tell them what class to use and what class to dont.

@"Conqueror.3682" said:Its easy to say that someone has to be in the bottom when necromancer was always in the bottom, lol

But still, necro is still the option when the fight needs epidemic. Maybe the problem is that people still obey stupid raid sites which tell them what class to use and what class to dont.

It's just the reality of competitive gameplay with factions. Now, I'm not saying that Necromancer needs to always be at the bottom (though I keep hearing that Revenant is really the bottom) but let's not act like saying there is always going to be a bottom is sacrilege and something a person should never ever ever ever say. It's ok to say that someone is going to be at the bottom because someone is going to be the bottom. If it's not Necromancer then it would have been someone else.

But I do agree with you on the matter of people obeying "stupid raid sites" as I personally think folks should play what they find fun and more people should be open to allowing people to play whats fun. I don't think everything in the game needs to be about the most DPS you can put out. I main Engineer and Revenant. While Revenant is not the best of the best its loads of fun for me. I have Necromancer as one of my more frequently played back up alts (the other being Elementalist). It really should be the case that more people are accepting of folks who don't care about top DPS.

@Conqueror.3682 said:Its easy to say that someone has to be in the bottom when necromancer was always in the bottom, lol

But still, necro is still the option when the fight needs epidemic. Maybe the problem is that people still obey stupid raid sites which tell them what class to use and what class to dont.

Scourge is also difficult to use and reaper is frustrating for healers. So both cases they are headaches. If they're not good while being difficult and frustrating for other players why should you bring them?

U cant expect each class with the same balances. There will be always atleast 1 class wich will do less dmg than others... its normal... wrong would be if u couldnt kill anything... then i would agree.

Then ArenaNET should buff each class <% without changing skill cooldowns etc... just buff all classes and thats all... and then game will be booring a/f, because u could kill everything EZ... now u need to challange urself to be better, to make ur character better...

@mikeeens.3542 said:U cant expect each class with the same balances. There will be always atleast 1 class wich will do less dmg than others... its normal... wrong would be if u couldnt kill anything... then i would agree.

Then ArenaNET should buff each class <% without changing skill cooldowns etc... just buff all classes and thats all... and then game will be booring a/f, because u could kill everything EZ... now u need to challange urself to be better, to make ur character better...

So it's right that necro is always at the bottom? And other classes aren't allowed to be at the bottom, only necro?Sure there will be someone doing less dmg than others, but it's the difference that matters. But it doesn't have to be always necro. And that's how it was and is. Necro was only good when unintended things happened.-horrors-dhuumfire bug-epi bounceThat's the only 3 times when necro was good and instant got nerfed to be at the bottom again.I only play for 3years now. So i started before hot.And necro was always bottom. And from what people tell me, necro was bottom from the beginning of gw2,While ele was always top.

@Dace.8173And if anyone says that rev is bad or bottom, this guy makes me mad.Sure it has its problems but it's super good in PvP and wvw.And In dmg it's way above necro. So why should it be worse than necro?