Please give guardian a valid tank build

It's absurd that a light armor class like mesmer is the one and only tank in raids, I get it that they also give boons and support but is it hard to give these options to guardians also?

??? Firebrand has 0 issues with tanking bosses.Firebrand has issues with being as brokenly OP as chrono. It comes close, but chrono is just so broken it's not replacable.

"Just buff everything to that level QQ" yeah no. Lets just give every support 100% quickness + alac + more than half the boons in the game + 1k breakbar damage + best pull in the game + a good amount of defensives even on "DPS" variants.

I've tanked VG, gorse and SH on firebrand. Absolutely no issues. Mostly did it because i was going heal fb and couldn't drop toughness low enough (VG / gorse, was meme raid anyways) or because one chrono couldn't tank (SH).

@Zaraki.5784 said:It's absurd that a light armor class like mesmer is the one and only tank in raids, I get it that they also give boons and support but is it hard to give these options to guardians also?

So your solution to the problem is to recreate the exact same problem, except with different class? The Chrono tank is just a symptom of the bigger issue.... and thats a raid structure that wants to be a classic trinity, and all the team comp incentive that comes with it.

@starlinvf.1358 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:It's absurd that a light armor class like mesmer is the one and only tank in raids, I get it that they also give boons and support but is it hard to give these options to guardians also?

I agree with it being a problem but in years nothing changed and nothing will change about chronotank, apparently anet is fine with that gameplay, so we can only ask them to give other classes the same tools to tank like a chronomancer.

The issue is that the CEO of ANet plays mesmer so it must be top tier in pvp/wvw with mirage and in pve with chrono :-1:

Guardian is absolutely capable of tanking, the problem is a chrono tank can do it just as well and provide utility that a guardian can't even hold a match to. That's generally how it is for chrono tank vs. any other tank so people always default to chronos.

@"Etheri.5406" said:??? Firebrand has 0 issues with tanking bosses.Firebrand has issues with being as brokenly OP as chrono. It comes close, but chrono is just so broken it's not replacable.

"Just buff everything to that level QQ" yeah no. Lets just give every support 100% quickness + alac + more than half the boons in the game + 1k breakbar damage + best pull in the game + a good amount of defensives even on "DPS" variants.

I've tanked VG, gorse and SH on firebrand. Absolutely no issues. Mostly did it because i was going heal fb and couldn't drop toughness low enough (VG / gorse, was meme raid anyways) or because one chrono couldn't tank (SH).

@Arcaedus.7290 said:Guardian is absolutely capable of tanking, the problem is a chrono tank can do it just as well and provide utility that a guardian can't even hold a match to. That's generally how it is for chrono tank vs. any other tank so people always default to chronos.

Please share your recommended tank builds.

You are going off topic, I didn't opened this thread to discuss if guardian is or is not capable of tanking (it is in many cases), I opened this thread with the hope of moving opinions toward giving or not giving the same amount of group support while tanking which chrono has.

@Zaraki.5784 said:You are going off topic, I didn't opened this thread to discuss if guardian is or is not capable of tanking (it is in many cases), I opened this thread with the hope of moving opinions toward giving or not giving the same amount of group support while tanking which chrono has.

The only thing Guard (FB) really need to be a competible tank is for the mantra bug to be fixed. This is the main reason why FB is not a more prevalently used as healer nr. 2 or as tank. If (or hopefully when) this is fixed we will see them used alot more. If we are lucky they fix barrier from necro at the same time, since they are bugged in the same way.

@TheAgedGnome.7520 said:

@"Etheri.5406" said:??? Firebrand has 0 issues with tanking bosses.Firebrand has issues with being as brokenly OP as chrono. It comes close, but chrono is just so broken it's not replacable.

"Just buff everything to that level QQ" yeah no. Lets just give every support 100% quickness + alac + more than half the boons in the game + 1k breakbar damage + best pull in the game + a good amount of defensives even on "DPS" variants.

I've tanked VG, gorse and SH on firebrand. Absolutely no issues. Mostly did it because i was going heal fb and couldn't drop toughness low enough (VG / gorse, was meme raid anyways) or because one chrono couldn't tank (SH).

@Arcaedus.7290 said:Guardian is absolutely capable of tanking, the problem is a chrono tank can do it just as well and provide utility that a guardian can't even hold a match to. That's generally how it is for chrono tank vs. any other tank so people always default to chronos.

Full Minstrel's, Valor/Honor/Firebrand, Mace/Shield. I remember someone from qT putting out a video showing a River of Souls solo running a similar build. At any rate, I'm sure it is capable of tanking but chrono can do everything this build can and provide more boons, alacrity and can match or exceed the quickness uptime.

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNApeSnsADFBjlCBWCBEEhlHCL79MfyA7zz8ZAFLAUB+AA-jhxGQB0T9HCq8DAnCghs/wEVCSunAoPgUAftSD-efull minstrel tank build with parma quickness

Unfortunately wont happen since since the issue with tanking in this game is actually issue of support roles and boons, not of the tanking itself. I'd rather see Anet "fix" boons in the game than just copy/paste chronomancer unto other classes

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNApeWnsADFBjNCDuDBEEhlHCDLA0A+A7zz8ZANr9MfyAA-jBiXABBr8Dalgh+EAoXfAA7PckaB6eKA8XVHSB43CA-e

Notice that you freely can change skill 8+9 to anything that you want to. Also the staff in swap can be dropped without a problem if you just want to run mace/shield.

However main problem stands, as long as mantras are bugged FB will never become a good tank/second healer :/

@Zaraki.5784 said:You are going off topic, I didn't opened this thread to discuss if guardian is or is not capable of tanking (it is in many cases), I opened this thread with the hope of moving opinions toward giving or not giving the same amount of group support while tanking which chrono has.

If that's the case, let's all chime in.

No thanks. Adding MORE broken and OP stuff to the game is nonsense ... and saying it's justified because there is already broken and OP'ed stuff in the game is as much nonsense as asking to add it.

I've tanked VG as a NON FB. I forget if I was using DH or core.

Also, what is the Mantra bug? I haven't been running any FB recently.

We don't need better support/tank, no more powercreep; we need Chrono and Druid balances.

@Sigfodr.9576 said:

@Zaraki.5784 said:You are going off topic, I didn't opened this thread to discuss if guardian is or is not capable of tanking (it is in many cases), I opened this thread with the hope of moving opinions toward giving or not giving the same amount of group support while tanking which chrono has.

What bugs ?

@Zhaid Zhem.6508 said:We don't need better support/tank, no more powercreep; we need Chrono and Druid balances.

I think Druid is about as balanced as it'll ever get. You can't really nerf the most valued aspects of it without devaluing the entire Ranger class. Which would be undeserved.

Chronomancer, and Mesmer in general, just does too much though, and there is space there for nerfing. Mesmer has no business sharing Aegis. I'm generally fine if another profession aside from Guardian has Aegis, or even can share it. Mesmer is just the absolute last class that needs it. The biggest culprit here is the trait Inspiring Distortion as the thing is basically a passive and comes on top of the entire Inspiration line that's picked anyway for Chronobunker. Well of Precognition is basically alright, they'd have to sacrifice an important utility slot to take it.

Right ... I see a bunch of builds going around. I recognise nike's heal fb build. I see a few with some poor choices.

Overall I use this altho I swap weapons, runes (altruism / monk / water) and traits very regularly. I also use concentration sigil to get to 67% boon dura then rest harrier. If you don't wanna tank (which you usually shouldn't) then go harrier, which is better. Even tanking I only run full minstrel on SH. That said full minstrel is a fine starting build especially if you wanna tank; since it can be used in WvW as well. Most bosses where i use FB don't have toughness tank (SH, matthias, sloth, samarog, ... )

http://gw2skills.net/editor/?vVAQNApeSnsADFBjFCBuDBEEhlHCDLA0A+AZvn5TGYfemPDoA-jByGQB97MAMk9HmoSQ6p+DBV6BgDBwSVGQuHAoPgUA+tSD-e

Don't use honorable staff. Heal on aegis is better on all bosses.Imo you NEED bane signet on any bosses with breakbar. You're trying to replace a chrono. You can't replace 1k+ breakbar damage and bring next to nothing.Imo MI in PvE is too broken to give up, especially for pugs. But if nobody dies then replace it for another mantra or something. Never run res signet over MI unless you're in PVP.

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" Guard mantras don't work by subgroup but by proximity. In raids you give the boons to the 5 closest people, not your own subgroup.

Buffing FB up to the level of chrono is almost impossible. Chrono plain needs NERFS.I think the healthiest way to "nerf" chrono is by putting alacrity and quickness behidn CHOICES through traits / skills; so they can choose between high quickness, high alacrity or a mix of both, but never 100% uptime on both. Keep in mind chrono has so much utility it will remain viable without any issues. Also nerf chaos some more.

Another problem is many bad players trying to pretend FB + ren is actually as good as chrono setups. The truth is it almost always underperforms, from "high end" to "low end" FB + ren virtually always ends up below chrono setups.

@"kasoki.5180" said:Unfortunately wont happen since since the issue with tanking in this game is actually issue of support roles and boons, not of the tanking itself. I'd rather see Anet "fix" boons in the game than just copy/paste chronomancer unto other classes

That happens cause no matter what every utility type results in boon stack in very class (everything is a boons basicly), where they should have stayed based with the gw1 skill type system and their possible counters.

And we all know how mobs behave.... so everything that "puffs" boons at left and right will be good.

What do you guys thing about letting fb and rene hit 10 ppl with their alac and quickness share? Would knock off the vip boon support list without knocking off mesmer from the meta? Between the 2 of them, I think they should be able to put most of the boons chaos mesmer can anyway, and letting them hit 10 would let the 2 of them do the job of 2 mesmers. Would that affect wvw in any significant way?

@JDub.1530 said:Also, what is the Mantra bug? I haven't been running any FB recently.

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:What bugs ?

The bug is the FB mantras effect 5 random squadmembers (the 5 closest" and NOT the 5 members in the FB's sub squad. This mean that you cant replace a chrono with a FB as the FB's sub squad then cant be sure of having quickness all the time. The Scourge Barrier's are even worse though, they hit 5 random squad member or pets/minions...... without prioritising sub squad members or even players first... I really hope they fix these 2 bugs, and the sooner the better.

@"Etheri.5406" said:Imo you NEED bane signet on any bosses with breakbar. You're trying to replace a chrono. You can't replace 1k+ breakbar damage and bring next to nothing.

Buffing FB up to the level of chrono is almost impossible. Chrono plain needs NERFS.I think the healthiest way to "nerf" chrono is by putting alacrity and quickness behidn CHOICES through traits / skills; so they can choose between high quickness, high alacrity or a mix of both, but never 100% uptime on both. Keep in mind chrono has so much utility it will remain viable without any issues. Also nerf chaos some more.

Another problem is many bad players trying to pretend FB + ren is actually as good as chrono setups. The truth is it almost always underperforms, from "high end" to "low end" FB + ren virtually always ends up below chrono setups.

Generally agree with all you said, from you build I can see that we have come to the same decitions on what to bring. Something you (forgot) to mention is traited Sanctuary, its a "slow" cc skill, as it needs time to give of its full effect. But it is even stronger then Moa signet, as it do 1200 points of cc (moa do 1k). And since its on a shorter cd it become pretty strong.

Not sure if the FB + DPS/Sub ren combo is worse then a chrono, or to be precise, if the FB mantra bug was fixed I think it can be as good. The main draw back in that case will be that you need to have 2 people with very specific builds for it to work. Where a chrono is just 1 man. So for pugs, its easyer to just get a chrono. The FB+DPS/sub ren combo do however have the benefit that they heal more then the chrono/druid combo and also do more damage. But bring less cc since ren have crap cc.

Druid can also cover Might stacking for the entire 10-man raid via GotL. That's actually the only advantage of a druid currently that can't be replaced. If either Fb or ren could cover that role, the alternative duo might get some playtime. Soulbeast would probably retain a slot as a Fury generator/Spirit Slave.

@Sigfodr.9576 said:

@JDub.1530 said:Also, what is the Mantra bug? I haven't been running any FB recently.

@"Zhaid Zhem.6508" said:What bugs ?

@"Etheri.5406" said:Imo you NEED bane signet on any bosses with breakbar. You're trying to replace a chrono. You can't replace 1k+ breakbar damage and bring next to nothing.

Buffing FB up to the level of chrono is almost impossible. Chrono plain needs NERFS.I think the healthiest way to "nerf" chrono is by putting alacrity and quickness behidn CHOICES through traits / skills; so they can choose between high quickness, high alacrity or a mix of both, but never 100% uptime on both. Keep in mind chrono has so much utility it will remain viable without any issues. Also nerf chaos some more.

Another problem is many bad players trying to pretend FB + ren is actually as good as chrono setups. The truth is it almost always underperforms, from "high end" to "low end" FB + ren virtually always ends up below chrono setups.

Generally agree with all you said, from you build I can see that we have come to the same decitions on what to bring. Something you (forgot) to mention is traited Sanctuary, its a "slow" cc skill, as it needs time to give of its full effect. But it is even stronger then Moa signet, as it do 1200 points of cc (moa do 1k). And since its on a shorter cd it become pretty strong.

FB + ren has several issues. High-end meta is still 2 chrono 1 druid as 3 supports providing ALL required boons and a metric fuckton of CC.

Support ren easily gets 100% alac. Support FB easily gets 100% quickness. But both of those are IRRELEVANT because then you're stuck with 2 full healers which are STILL having worse CC, worse dmg modifiers (spirits, GoE, spotter, ...) AND worse boon uptime than chaos chrono + druid except aegis. Where do you get 100% fury? Eventually you have 4 supports instead of 3 which heal better, but do everything else worse, and are harder to play.

So high end? Not worth. Low end? Very difficult for mediocre to bad results too. In the middle? Still not going to happen.

You need a boss where players are stacked enough to reliably hit all mantras AND all the ren alac. You need bosses where you don't need full chaos boons... more doable nowadays. You need bosses where ren and FB are actually "good" as DPS options or they just fall off. Which leaves TWO bosses : sabetha and MO. Those two bosses? Chrono with DPS comps STILL win out.

Ren has great CC if you go staff. Fb has great CC if you spec into it. But can either of them, or the combo, do what chaos chrono does? Nope.

By all means its more than good enough to clear. It's just actually not better than chrono. Not in any way. Not the low end. Not the high end. Not in between. Not easier. Not situationally better. Just strictly worse (even if not that much in some situations).

Better to just run chrono chrono druid (+ off meta rev or FB depending on the boss) if you want to run 4 supports and carry pugs. If your good is group... Just go solo druid 2 chronos and it'll be better on almost everything.

@Etheri.5406 said:FB + ren has several issues. High-end meta is still 2 chrono 1 druid as 3 supports providing ALL required boons and a metric fuckton of CC.

Agree, for high end raids. Nothing atm beats 2*chrono + 1 condi druid.

However, very few groups can run this. And unless you are doing record runs, there is rarely a reason to do so either. So lets look at the more normal 2chrono (1 minstreal) + 2full heal druid settup that 99% of pug groups (and alot of static groups) run. Can they have a benefit (or equel) reason to swap a chono + druid out for a FB + Rev combo?

@Etheri.5406 said:Support ren easily gets 100% alac. Support FB easily gets 100% quickness. But both of those are IRRELEVANT because then you're stuck with 2 full healers which are STILL having worse CC, worse dmg modifiers (spirits, GoE, spotter, ...) AND worse boon uptime than chaos chrono + druid except aegis. Where do you get 100% fury? Eventually you have 4 supports instead of 3 which heal better, but do everything else worse, and are harder to play.

So high end? Not worth. Low end? Very difficult for mediocre to bad results too. In the middle? Still not going to happen.

You need a boss where players are stacked enough to reliably hit all mantras AND all the ren alac. You need bosses where you don't need full chaos boons... more doable nowadays. You need bosses where ren and FB are actually "good" as DPS options or they just fall off. Which leaves TWO bosses : sabetha and MO. Those two bosses? Chrono with DPS comps STILL win out.

Ren has great CC if you go staff. Fb has great CC if you spec into it. But can either of them, or the combo, do what chaos chrono does? Nope.

By all means its more than good enough to clear. It's just actually not better than chrono. Not in any way. Not the low end. Not the high end. Not in between. Not easier. Not situationally better. Just strictly worse (even if not that much in some situations).

Better to just run chrono chrono druid (+ off meta rev or FB depending on the boss) if you want to run 4 supports and carry pugs. If your good is group... Just go solo druid 2 chronos and it'll be better on almost everything.

Assuming we run 4 supports (like alot of groups generally do), 1 druid will be able to bring spirits for all. Might is easyly covered by 1 druid + the heal FB. Not to mention what extra a support/damage rev can add. Fury is covered by druid + FB (remember sword is 2*18 sec fury every 18 sec. quickness + alacrity is covered. The CC from FB is better then chrono.

So what are the benefits of FB+rev over chrono+druid in group 2? :Better condition control.Better cc.Better aegis uptime.Abit higher damage.

And the downsides:Harder to find people that play it.Atm buggy mantras.Harder to hit people with mantras

In my opinion druid nr. 2 is generally not needed, so it dont take alot to replace it. The hard part is to replace the chrono. But then again, we might not. If we just want the FB to tank, then the chrono can be there as support chrono and the FB can just have taken the spot of druid nr. 2. Is this better then 2chrono + 1 druid, no. But its prob better or as good as 2chrono + 2*druid.In the same way can support rev or support necro also tank if that is what people want to. And they to bring more then the normal second druid. Just like they can be healer nr. 2 and take that druids spot that way. And all 3 classes bring more then druid nr. 2 in any fight.