Necromancers and Raids — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Necromancers and Raids

Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭
edited August 10, 2018 in Necromancer

Guess all raiders want that statement. Or at least all raiding necromancers.
So just answer this question:

Why is necro not allowed to have either:
1. Around the same DPS that all other classes do
2. Have proper support that is desirable in raids

So specifically, dont you want necromancers to be able to raid?

I'm curious. Necro was never intended to be anywhere near good in raidscene.

Hot release:

Shambling horrors: unintended, nerfed into oblivion

POF release:

Dhuumfire bug: unintended, fixed very fast

Epi bounce: unintended, nerfed to the ground, so epi sometimes can't even kill trash anymore. In addition made almost all conditions builds pretty bad so everyone is playing power again = indirect nerf to epi

So from hot release until today, necro was only wanted 3 times for a very short duration before nerfs/ fixes came that pushed necro out of real viability again.

If the current design keeps you from giving necro more dmg or support, why can't necro get a rework like mesmer and thief did? A rework esp. For deathshroud or shroud mechanic is wanted and asked for by so many necro main players, that its strange why nothing happens.

But for the time being, just answer these questions please

Comments

  • maddoctor.2738maddoctor.2738 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    2. Have proper support that is desirable in raids

    Three words: Chrono, Druid and Warrior! With major emphasis on Chrono.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭

    Necro is just really good in bad groups.

  • @yann.1946 said:
    Necro is just really good in bad groups.

    Thats probably the whole point here. Scourge support is great to train noobs for raiding and then loses relevance (like the whole class basically) the better you get. I for my part am not fine with being labeled as the low effort group content leech only because theme and playstyle of this one particular profession happened to suit me the most.

  • Auri.1365Auri.1365 Member ✭✭

    I think one reason necro doesn't get close to the top dps builds is that necro is quite tanky due to shroud or barrier. So the only chance I see to get a really good dps option for necro would be with the next elite specialisation that has neither shroud nor barrier. Then maybe we necros can get a real dps build. Or instead of a dps elite spec, a spec that buffs others could be nice as well.

  • Swamurabi.7890Swamurabi.7890 Member ✭✭✭

    @Auri.1365 said:
    I think one reason necro doesn't get close to the top dps builds is that necro is quite tanky due to shroud or barrier. So the only chance I see to get a really good dps option for necro would be with the next elite specialisation that has neither shroud nor barrier. Then maybe we necros can get a real dps build. Or instead of a dps elite spec, a spec that buffs others could be nice as well.

    And how is the tankiness of Necro equal the block/evade/immunity/invulnerability of other classes when dealing with high damage?

  • polvere.2805polvere.2805 Member ✭✭✭

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:
    And how is the tankiness of Necro equal the block/evade/immunity/invulnerability of other classes when dealing with high damage?

    What dps classes have this block/evade/immunity/invulnerability in their kit ? Renegade doesn't even have a single condi cleanse, only evades are the 2 dodges.
    Deadeye only has death blossom (and 10k hp) --> dps loss
    Daredevil, DH and mirage are the only exceptions (lot of dodges that suit in the rotation more or less, guard has a shield)
    Holosmith dps has defensives ? Ele got defensives ? Ranger dps got defensive ? Warrior dps got defensive ?

    I am not here to say that that Necro is in a good spot overall, but please don't spread misinformation. All dps classes sacrifice EVERYTHING in order to do dps. The real culript of this is the chrono/druid combo (only chrono in reality) that allow classes to drop all defensive tools and keeps them alive trough aegis share, distortion, and sheer healing.
    If you nerf chrono and their raidwide survivability then suddendly the tankiness of necro would not be considered unnecessary anymore.

    Also as said in my previous post right now Necro is a niche pick that see uses in coordinated teams. We use it in my static on some bosses, epi is still good, the barriers are still good. It doesn't mean that he is fine, but he is not in such a dire situation that he deserves to be called "useless"

  • Ceit.7619Ceit.7619 Member ✭✭✭

    How is the tankiness of a necro equal to the near constant evasion of a mirage who is doing way more damage than it? lol

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 10, 2018

    @Auri.1365 said:
    I think one reason necro doesn't get close to the top dps builds is that necro is quite tanky due to shroud or barrier.

    That is only meaningful in bad groups. In good ones you will have competent healer (and you're not expected to facetank damage anymore, because most of the time doing that would kill you anyway, shroud or no shroud). And with a good healer, shroud is actually a disadvantage, because you cannot be healed while in it.

    Also, as already mentioned, necros do not have any active defenses. No blocks, evades, invulns... and in any more meaningful content those are much more useful than a bigger hp buffer.

    @polvere.2805 said:
    I am not here to say that that Necro is in a good spot overall, but please don't spread misinformation. All dps classes sacrifice EVERYTHING in order to do dps.

    Necros do not have anything worthwhile to sacrifice, though.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Swamurabi.7890Swamurabi.7890 Member ✭✭✭

    @polvere.2805 said:

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:
    And how is the tankiness of Necro equal the block/evade/immunity/invulnerability of other classes when dealing with high damage?

    What dps classes have this block/evade/immunity/invulnerability in their kit ? Renegade doesn't even have a single condi cleanse, only evades are the 2 dodges.
    Deadeye only has death blossom (and 10k hp) --> dps loss
    Daredevil, DH and mirage are the only exceptions (lot of dodges that suit in the rotation more or less, guard has a shield)
    Holosmith dps has defensives ? Ele got defensives ? Ranger dps got defensive ? Warrior dps got defensive ?

    I am not here to say that that Necro is in a good spot overall, but please don't spread misinformation. All dps classes sacrifice EVERYTHING in order to do dps. The real culript of this is the chrono/druid combo (only chrono in reality) that allow classes to drop all defensive tools and keeps them alive trough aegis share, distortion, and sheer healing.
    If you nerf chrono and their raidwide survivability then suddendly the tankiness of necro would not be considered unnecessary anymore.

    Also as said in my previous post right now Necro is a niche pick that see uses in coordinated teams. We use it in my static on some bosses, epi is still good, the barriers are still good. It doesn't mean that he is fine, but he is not in such a dire situation that he deserves to be called "useless"

    Let me rephrase it this way then, Which raid does the tankiness of a Necro cause them to be the only one standing and they instarez the entire party, saving a wipe?

    Or better yet, in which raid are the squishy classes grateful a Necro is along because the Necro will stay alive long enough to prevent a wipe?

    Even with a Chrono nerf, would it change your answers above?

  • Blocki.4931Blocki.4931 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Necro is a support class, get over it. It doesn't have to be top dps.

    "May contain large quantities of snark and sarcasm. Handle with care."
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  • @Swamurabi.7890 said:

    @polvere.2805 said:

    @Swamurabi.7890 said:
    And how is the tankiness of Necro equal the block/evade/immunity/invulnerability of other classes when dealing with high damage?

    What dps classes have this block/evade/immunity/invulnerability in their kit ? Renegade doesn't even have a single condi cleanse, only evades are the 2 dodges.
    Deadeye only has death blossom (and 10k hp) --> dps loss
    Daredevil, DH and mirage are the only exceptions (lot of dodges that suit in the rotation more or less, guard has a shield)
    Holosmith dps has defensives ? Ele got defensives ? Ranger dps got defensive ? Warrior dps got defensive ?

    I am not here to say that that Necro is in a good spot overall, but please don't spread misinformation. All dps classes sacrifice EVERYTHING in order to do dps. The real culript of this is the chrono/druid combo (only chrono in reality) that allow classes to drop all defensive tools and keeps them alive trough aegis share, distortion, and sheer healing.
    If you nerf chrono and their raidwide survivability then suddendly the tankiness of necro would not be considered unnecessary anymore.

    Also as said in my previous post right now Necro is a niche pick that see uses in coordinated teams. We use it in my static on some bosses, epi is still good, the barriers are still good. It doesn't mean that he is fine, but he is not in such a dire situation that he deserves to be called "useless"

    Let me rephrase it this way then, Which raid does the tankiness of a Necro cause them to be the only one standing and they instarez the entire party, saving a wipe?

    Or better yet, in which raid are the squishy classes grateful a Necro is along because the Necro will stay alive long enough to prevent a wipe?

    Even with a Chrono nerf, would it change your answers above?

    Scourge has alot of Support options the only problem is Druid is better at support because of spirit and heals

  • derd.6413derd.6413 Member ✭✭✭✭

    probably because necro is pretty good in pvp/wvw

    I Have No friends, so I Must pug

  • Sephylon.4938Sephylon.4938 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Necro is a support class, get over it. It doesn't have to be top dps.

    You mean scourge, or are you saying reaper is a support spec too

    I am a giant tomato filled with love. I have come to sell you a house made out of pancakes.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Necro is a support class, get over it. It doesn't have to be top dps.

    Yes, a support class doesn't need top dps. It needs actual worthwhile support though, which necro also doesn't have. Also, as already mentioned, support is at best Scourge thing, not Necro - and Reaper is supposed to be a damage class. Which we know, because devs did tell us their design goals for it.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Bish.8627Bish.8627 Member ✭✭✭

    If Necro did high end DPS, then it would be meta, because shroud is a second health bar. I really hope necro gets a fully dedicated DPS build with a good mechanic like daredevil or mirage next elite. Playing Holo or mirage is a crazy different experience, Holo is basically glass canon, dodge or die and mirage is constant dodging, but miss time it and die. Shroud means I can sit in it and not worry, come out, DPS, go back in.

  • Swamurabi.7890Swamurabi.7890 Member ✭✭✭

    Maybe if the title of the thread was RAIDS AND NECROMANCERS it would have stayed in the raid forum

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @polvere.2805 said:
    If you nerf chrono and their raidwide survivability then suddendly the tankiness of necro would not be considered unnecessary anymore.

    Honnestly, I doubt it. More likely, if chrono is nerfed in it's defensive role he will be replaced by guardian for this job and tankiness will still be left out of the picture. Raids are pretty straigthforward in their design and this make High DPS king. A profession which is 10% behind the 2nd worst in dps, whatever it's tankiness will just always be brushed off.

    Now, if you introduce different type of encounters in raid that are more based on survivability than dps, maybe tankiness might be valued but such encounter wouldn't really satisfy the raid community which is commited to the boss spanking idea.

    @Blocki.4931 said:
    Necro is a support class, get over it. It doesn't have to be top dps.

    Nope, professions aren't labelled as "support", "dps" or "tank" class. When anet sold their game they specifically said that there wouldn't be dedicated profession in order to avoid hours of waiting for a "monk" or whatever. They sold the game in such a way that any profession would be able to attend any role.

    And again, nobody asked necromancer to be top dps, people ask necromancer to be in the same range of dps than other professions which is between 32k and 34k.

  • Taqe.1342Taqe.1342 Member ✭✭

    Someone teach me how I can just stay in shroud and absorb all this damage? Is there some magical build that lets you stay in shroud for 5 min and recive no damage? Shroud is nothing, you enter it, boss looks at you and all your life force is gone, congratulations your shroud lasted whole 1 second... some ppl here rly think shroud is some OP thing that gives you infinite health... mesmer sword #2 last longer than shroud, warrior shield block last longer than shroud, warrior defy pain last longer, ranger signet last longer, while giving more dps than necro and way more support... "but its like second life bar" so how necro is no tank and can neven be a tank? becouse shroud can absorb lets say 20k dmg, while other classes I mentioned can absorb 1000000 dmg (potencial dmg) when used at the right time, thats why they always be better tanks.

  • Aetatis.5418Aetatis.5418 Member ✭✭✭

    @Taqe.1342 said:
    Someone teach me how I can just stay in shroud and absorb all this damage? Is there some magical build that lets you stay in shroud for 5 min and recive no damage? Shroud is nothing, you enter it, boss looks at you and all your life force is gone, congratulations your shroud lasted whole 1 second... some ppl here rly think shroud is some OP thing that gives you infinite health... mesmer sword #2 last longer than shroud, warrior shield block last longer than shroud, warrior defy pain last longer, ranger signet last longer, while giving more dps than necro and way more support... "but its like second life bar" so how necro is no tank and can neven be a tank? becouse shroud can absorb lets say 20k dmg, while other classes I mentioned can absorb 1000000 dmg (potencial dmg) when used at the right time, thats why they always be better tanks.

    difference is, in most coordinated, instanced pve (!because topic! - we all now its a different matter in pvp) scenarios, a ranger won't take the signet; a warrior won't be taking defy pain - nor a shield to block. just the mesmer chrono and mirage have built in defenses (and daredevil to some extent). chronos because it is THE support spec/build and mirage ... because (!)
    so looking at this specifically, necro has a lot more hp than the average profession.
    a good necro reaper (scourge is different again, can spam barrier for the group, when a big hit is imminent) however wont be using it as a buffer, and more as a burst.
    ...but when in danger or in doubt (and the cd is up), it can be used as a measure to soak up one or two big hits - preemptively.

    so i can understand if some players say "necro has the biggest healthpool and is forgiving. top dps is not justified". because the profession mechanic can be used defensively without sacrificing a weapon/utility/trait-slot/a lot of damage

    however, i dont understand why a full support warrior does more damage than my necro. remember, my necro doesnt bring (as) much (as others) to group content like raids.

    ultimatively (imo. and my opinion developed during the past 6 years) the whole necro dps issue is a thing, because (so many) mechanics can be extremely exploited.
    if content was as good designed, as it sounded when anet announced "everybody can chose to do any role", with much less loopholes like:

    • dps to skip phases.
    • burst on fractal bosses by stacking skills before the fight/mob spawns or similar.
    • chrono boonshare + druid healing that does everything from dmg mitigation/avoiding to buffing the grp into eternity - so that nobody else has to pick a skill to make up for it (defensive weapons/traits/utility skills).
      there could be potentially a lot more compositions of teams.

    • just to name a few that come to mind immediately and are a thing right now, (unlike fiery GS which is a thing of the past)

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I see. that's how necro opinions get shut down by anet.

    Moving the thread to necro-sub so noone can see the truth

  • Dace.8173Dace.8173 Member ✭✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Guess all raiders want that statement. Or at least all raiding necromancers.
    So just answer this question:

    Why is necro not allowed to have either:
    1. Around the same DPS that all other classes do
    2. Have proper support that is desirable in raids

    So specifically, dont you want necromancers to be able to raid?

    I'm curious. Necro was never intended to be anywhere near good in raidscene.

    Hot release:

    Shambling horrors: unintended, nerfed into oblivion

    POF release:

    Dhuumfire bug: unintended, fixed very fast

    Epi bounce: unintended, nerfed to the ground, so epi sometimes can't even kill trash anymore. In addition made almost all conditions builds pretty bad so everyone is playing power again = indirect nerf to epi

    So from hot release until today, necro was only wanted 3 times for a very short duration before nerfs/ fixes came that pushed necro out of real viability again.

    If the current design keeps you from giving necro more dmg or support, why can't necro get a rework like mesmer and thief did? A rework esp. For deathshroud or shroud mechanic is wanted and asked for by so many necro main players, that its strange why nothing happens.

    But for the time being, just answer these questions please

    Do the developers actually answer questions in threads like these? I'm very curious to know.

  • Axl.8924Axl.8924 Member ✭✭✭✭

    In my opinion there should be a third separation classification:WVW and have it split between pvp and pve, so classes don't get hit with class destroying nerfs.

    The nerfs are seriously getting out of hands and so is the QQ

    Here is my list of characters i got so far:

    Elementalist 80 with tempest:Talman nul
    Necromancer 80 with reaper:Zex vokar
    Mesmer level 80 no chrono yet:Klanga voosh.
    Level 80 Ranger with druid spec Jedkhan.

  • Dadnir.5038Dadnir.5038 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Axl.8924 said:
    In my opinion there should be a third separation classification:WVW and have it split between pvp and pve, so classes don't get hit with class destroying nerfs.

    The nerfs are seriously getting out of hands and so is the QQ

    They can already split balance for all 3 gamemodes and they do it. The issue lie elsewhere. The issue lie in the fact that they only split numbers and not mechanisms. So if there is a need to touch a mechanism for 1 gamemode, all gamemodes are impacted.

  • Anchoku.8142Anchoku.8142 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Is being meta for casual comp's really meta? That has been a question for Necro mains and a source of derision from other profession mains since 2012.

  • Obtena.7952Obtena.7952 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited August 14, 2018

    @Dace.8173 said:

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    Guess all raiders want that statement. Or at least all raiding necromancers.
    So just answer this question:

    Why is necro not allowed to have either:
    1. Around the same DPS that all other classes do
    2. Have proper support that is desirable in raids

    So specifically, dont you want necromancers to be able to raid?

    I'm curious. Necro was never intended to be anywhere near good in raidscene.

    Hot release:

    Shambling horrors: unintended, nerfed into oblivion

    POF release:

    Dhuumfire bug: unintended, fixed very fast

    Epi bounce: unintended, nerfed to the ground, so epi sometimes can't even kill trash anymore. In addition made almost all conditions builds pretty bad so everyone is playing power again = indirect nerf to epi

    So from hot release until today, necro was only wanted 3 times for a very short duration before nerfs/ fixes came that pushed necro out of real viability again.

    If the current design keeps you from giving necro more dmg or support, why can't necro get a rework like mesmer and thief did? A rework esp. For deathshroud or shroud mechanic is wanted and asked for by so many necro main players, that its strange why nothing happens.

    But for the time being, just answer these questions please

    Do the developers actually answer questions in threads like these? I'm very curious to know.

    I think any game dev knows better than to answer questions in the specific way they are posed by the OP. Besides, the questions are assuming too much about the game to start with and are clearly framed in a way to prove something. No one should be assuming necros don't have the same damage as other classes because they aren't 'allowed' to and maybe Anet does think Necro has 'proper support desirable for raids'. Anything but a negative answer to the questions is just asking for a big argument.

    I think the more valid questions are related to whether Anet believes the current capabilities of all classes are appropriate for meta-compliant raiders.

    If you think balancing is only driven by performance and justified by comparisons to other classes then prepare to be educated:

    https://www.guildwars2.com/en/news/balance-updates-the-heralds-near-future-and-pvp-league-season-13/

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