I don't like the state of thief — Guild Wars 2 Forums

I don't like the state of thief

LaFurion.3167LaFurion.3167 Member ✭✭✭

I have been maiming thief for 4 months now, playing it exclusively since I crafted bolt and incinerator for it. I am very sad to say that while I had a tonne of fun for the first month or so, I find thief just not fun.

Here are my 2 cents.

1) dead eye. This is not fun to me. I don't like stealthing forever and trying to one shot gimmick some noob looking at map. That's all this elite spec does.

2) I HATE how broken dagger storm is.... but concede that it is our only saving grace currently. Nerf after nerf after buff jk nerf. I hit like a wet noodle. In full marauder gear with berserker trinkets my larceneous strike criteria for 6-7k~ with around 20+ stacks of might.

My reaper shroud auto hits for way harder not to mention faster with trait. Soul beast auto can critical for 10k+ from range. We have nothing else that is on part with other classes. Dagger storm is so unfun to press for 4 and a half seconds of dodge and good damage with no counter play and it's not fun to be dagger stormed on.

3) I hate not having a role. We in zergs with every other medium class, and roaming is just getting 1v4 or 1v zerged. I'll have around 1 GOOD fightsevery 5-10 minutes or so. Maybe not bad to some but it's just a pitiful amount of action when compared to other games.

Fixes? I don't know. We have had so many nerfs over such a long period of time that we have gone the opposite direction of power creep.... power.... decay? With marauder gear I have 15k-16k hp.... what!?!

I don't know how to fix it but I'll be playing ranger for now.... pew pew long bow 2....

I don't want to jump on the thief I'd trash bandwagon but I feel like I've been deluding myself that the class is fun. It requires 100% concentration to play and one mistake you are deadededed.

As a thief main... seriously. Nerf dagger storm. It's not fun. And buff thief somehow to compensate.

<1

Comments

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2019

    @LaFurion.3167 said:
    I have been maiming thief for 4 months now, playing it exclusively since I crafted bolt and incinerator for it. I am very sad to say that while I had a tonne of fun for the first month or so, I find thief just not fun.

    Here are my 2 cents.

    1) dead eye. This is not fun to me. I don't like stealthing forever and trying to one shot gimmick some noob looking at map. That's all this elite spec does.

    2) I HATE how broken dagger storm is.... but concede that it is our only saving grace currently. Nerf after nerf after buff jk nerf. I hit like a wet noodle. In full marauder gear with berserker trinkets my larceneous strike criteria for 6-7k~ with around 20+ stacks of might.

    My reaper shroud auto hits for way harder not to mention faster with trait. Soul beast auto can critical for 10k+ from range. We have nothing else that is on part with other classes. Dagger storm is so unfun to press for 4 and a half seconds of dodge and good damage with no counter play and it's not fun to be dagger stormed on.

    3) I hate not having a role. We in zergs with every other medium class, and roaming is just getting 1v4 or 1v zerged. I'll have around 1 GOOD fightsevery 5-10 minutes or so. Maybe not bad to some but it's just a pitiful amount of action when compared to other games.

    Fixes? I don't know. We have had so many nerfs over such a long period of time that we have gone the opposite direction of power creep.... power.... decay? With marauder gear I have 15k-16k hp.... what!?!

    I don't know how to fix it but I'll be playing ranger for now.... pew pew long bow 2....

    I don't want to jump on the thief I'd trash bandwagon but I feel like I've been deluding myself that the class is fun. It requires 100% concentration to play and one mistake you are deadededed.

    As a thief main... seriously. Nerf dagger storm. It's not fun. And buff thief somehow to compensate.

    I agree thief core/DD being underperforming now after so many yrs of nurfs but get ready for a lot to f DE players and non thief players roasting u saying their in a great spot lol

  • LaFurion.3167LaFurion.3167 Member ✭✭✭

    T_T so sad.... I wish it was better.

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @LaFurion.3167 said:
    I have been maiming thief for 4 months now, playing it exclusively since I crafted bolt and incinerator for it. I am very sad to say that while I had a tonne of fun for the first month or so, I find thief just not fun.

    Here are my 2 cents.

    1) dead eye. This is not fun to me. I don't like stealthing forever and trying to one shot gimmick some noob looking at map. That's all this elite spec does.

    2) I HATE how broken dagger storm is.... but concede that it is our only saving grace currently. Nerf after nerf after buff jk nerf. I hit like a wet noodle. In full marauder gear with berserker trinkets my larceneous strike criteria for 6-7k~ with around 20+ stacks of might.

    My reaper shroud auto hits for way harder not to mention faster with trait. Soul beast auto can critical for 10k+ from range. We have nothing else that is on part with other classes. Dagger storm is so unfun to press for 4 and a half seconds of dodge and good damage with no counter play and it's not fun to be dagger stormed on.

    3) I hate not having a role. We in zergs with every other medium class, and roaming is just getting 1v4 or 1v zerged. I'll have around 1 GOOD fightsevery 5-10 minutes or so. Maybe not bad to some but it's just a pitiful amount of action when compared to other games.

    Fixes? I don't know. We have had so many nerfs over such a long period of time that we have gone the opposite direction of power creep.... power.... decay? With marauder gear I have 15k-16k hp.... what!?!

    I don't know how to fix it but I'll be playing ranger for now.... pew pew long bow 2....

    I don't want to jump on the thief I'd trash bandwagon but I feel like I've been deluding myself that the class is fun. It requires 100% concentration to play and one mistake you are deadededed.

    As a thief main... seriously. Nerf dagger storm. It's not fun. And buff thief somehow to compensate.

    ... non thief players roasting u saying their in a great spot lol

    So true

  • Jaruselka.5943Jaruselka.5943 Member ✭✭✭

    I main an engie...cry me a river.

  • Israel.7056Israel.7056 Member ✭✭✭✭

    What role do you want to have?

  • It amazes me a class can receive so many nurfs that it is a class now relegated to a +1 decap role. The numerous nurfs over the yrs has changed thief to a degree that it’s very own in game description no longer applies to its current iteration.ive heard many top thief players on streams etc raging over fellow thief players trying to 1v1 and getting downed, even the top players don’t want to chance a 1v1. So before people start saying I and others must suck and that they can duel against any class,than why do these really skilled players avoid duels and only +1?how is an average player gonna fare? It has been brought to arenet attention that thief’s in game discription is opisite of their current playstyle and their reply was thief isn’t meant to duel but is meant to be a +1 fighter. That seems like a excuse for not admitting they went too far with nurfs and now it’s in a state that it has to fight opponents distracted or injured to not be st a disadvantage? That’s not a role that should even exist imho.i could see classes that are strait bruisers taking on 1v2 being a thing but a role that’s +1? A class widely known as a +1 is literally stating it is at a disadvantage in a 1v1 no? Thief relies on quick burst and back stabs to down opponents and that was balanced by low hp/sustain and ur defensive strategy was using ur mobility to avoid damage. Over the yrs damage and mobility have been lowered all they while other classes saw increase in damage and mobility with blocks and invulnerability thrown ontop so now thief players are left with a shell of what they once were pitted up against these new powercrept classes. DE uses perma stealth tactics to be most effective and core/DD use their quickness to +1 an opponent or down already injured opponents which produces more salty players than other playstyles so non thief players will always rally for thief nurfs. I also am not a DE fan and I apologize for the wall of text

  • kash.9213kash.9213 Member ✭✭✭

    Sneaky DE complaint thread.

    You use stealth, you don't worry about.

    Take Basilik Venom.

    Northern Shiverpeaks [EL]

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 2, 2019

    Another common cry is how they are able to reset fights and how annoying it is to fight a thief resetting and want thiefs mobility nurfed further yet no one mentions any compensation for the loss of mobility and low hp/sustain,the reason thief resets in first place is due to it not being able to sustain fights passed its burst because it can’t take a hit. Plus now soulbeast,mesmers and holo’s can reset as well lol

  • Artaz.3819Artaz.3819 Member ✭✭✭

    @Jaruselka.5943 said:
    I main an engie...cry me a river.

    https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scrapper_-_Med_Kit_Scrapper

    Plenty of other options too with Holosmith for roaming ... I get it, core Engin is kind of meh but condi Engin is still pretty darn good for roaming.

  • @Artaz.3819 said:

    @LaFurion.3167 said:
    I have been maiming thief

    LOL

    If you look at the buff pattern/nerf pattern of ANet, you can clearly draw the line that you either play Deadeye or you are severely handicapping yourself. At one point about a year back, ANet was actually buffing Deadeye trait line and nerfing all other core Thief and hard nerfing DD (RIP Dash) thereby moving all the special improvements to DE thereby forcing the Deadeye's mechanics. So here you are in the state of Thief today...after a core mechanic of survivability of thief being nerfed.

    With WvW players whining about an overpowered Rifle trait (rightfully so) allowing easy perma-stealth amongst other things but what ANet did to fix in the more recent months update was not to modify the overpowered rifle trait problem but instead nerf all thief stealth builds. Thanks to the stealth nerf with Detected!, Anet does not even want core Thief played in this game mode at the moment since they dialed stealth nerf too high which means now the only truly good Thief build is now Staff evasion (which pales in comparison to Mirage). You can still run a loner/roamer Thief build and do OK in WvW but ...

    TL;DR Until DE burst/rifle is nerfed, Thief remains at the bottom and only the best/most dedicated Thief players remain. Warrior is not far behind. Best move on to a new class or a new ... well ... you know.

    This is accurate imho, instead of dialing in DE arenet nurfed core/DD further as if they only want thief players to invest in the DE spec.the only other explanation is they are so clueless on the thief class itself that they didn’t know how to reign in DE without negatively impacting core/DD. Op try travelers ruin on core guard or dh,obviously not as mobile but atleast u stand on equal ground in most 1v1 Roamer and u can contribute a bit to zergs as well

  • Ranger,mirage and holo are obviously ur other best Roamer but I find them boring so that’s why I said guard even tho it’s not a Roamer lol

  • Kaiser.9873Kaiser.9873 Member ✭✭✭

    I'd love them to make the "roaming"classes viable in the zerg, and the "zerg"classes viable as roamers. Then all the stealth this, mobility that arguments could go away.

  • Icy.2186Icy.2186 Member ✭✭

    Over the years whatever made thief unique and useful or fun or strong has slowly been given to other classes while thief has gotten nothing else but nerfs, this on top of the fact that from the get go when thief was a "strong" class some years ago ( yes thats how long its been utter kitten ) it was still considered a difficult class because its very active and has no passive mitigation makes thief currently below utter kitten tier.
    Its laughable how much effort and exhaustion thief has to put in to do a 1v1 properly and all of this because of what? Short bow 5?
    Hurdur thief is a mobile +1 class. These days every class is a mobile +1 class...

    Im not saying its impossible to win, but at this point it went from patting myself on the back for beating players in 1v1s or 2v1s in pvp and wvw to just thinking theyre flat out kitten and feeling depressed about my class. Yes i am ever so slightly upset.

  • IMHO the problem is that during nerfs Anet punish whole thief class instead of Elite spec. But of course commerce is first.

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    @LaFurion.3167 said:
    I'll have around 1 GOOD fightsevery 5-10 minutes or so.

    Is this some kind of new metric? GFPM?

    So what would make the thief good? 0.3 GFPM? 0.7 GFPM? Whats the GFPM rating of the other classes? At how low GFPM would a class be considered unbalanced? Do they share the same GFPM or is there some sort of individual threshhold?

    I demand answers!

  • Sylosi.6503Sylosi.6503 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 7, 2019

    There are no "roaming" or "zerg" classes.

    Mesmer has been a top roamer for the entire game, yet at worst it had a small niche role in zergs (veilbot) and much of the time it has been more than that as support, granted not exactly necro/guard levels, but still wanted in more numbers than it was simply as a veilbot and more than engy, ranger, thief have ever been.

    Same thing with warrior, compare to it engy for roaming, for much of the game it has been about as good or at times even better, yet it has fared way better in large scale.

    Then beyond that there is no comparison between effectiveness, you can roam on anything and do fine, even the weakest classes for roaming like necro are far stronger at that, than things like ranger, thief, engy have been at zergs pretty much the entire game.

    The difference is the things certain classes lack when it comes to roaming, mobility / disengage for instance, just mean they will die more because they can't pick their fights as often, but in most cases they can still fight as well as any other class, but in large scale some classes are simply a mile behind because of design (the game was not designed for the WvW fluff project) and mechanics that simply don't work in that situation.

    There is a delusion on this forum from some that they balance/design for WvW, they don't, at least not to any useful extent. The combat/mechanics/skills/traits were designed around PvP, because the Anet view at the start of the game was PvP was the serious bit and PvE/WvW were fluff. Then for 3 years they balanced virtually entirely around PvP (remember those Twitch streams at balance patches where nearly every change was down to PvP). Then with HoT they started to balance for PvE raids also, WvW just as always got nothing but the odd change and it has been that way ever since.

    "Balance" in WvW is simply whatever sticks from changes they make for PvP/PvE, which is why unlike PvP or PvE, class "balance" is non-existent and does not really change. And of course is one of the reasons the game mode is basically dead.

  • syszery.1592syszery.1592 Member ✭✭✭

    @LaFurion.3167 said:
    I have been maiming thief for 4 months now, playing it exclusively since I crafted bolt and incinerator for it. I am very sad to say that while I had a tonne of fun for the first month or so, I find thief just not fun.

    Maybe it's not due to the thief profession alone but also because WvW is in such a terrible spot at the moment?

    Here are my 2 cents.

    1) dead eye. This is not fun to me. I don't like stealthing forever and trying to one shot gimmick some noob looking at map. That's all this elite spec does.

    That's ok. Core S/D is much fun to play, Daredevil D/P also. And guess what: There are even people who like Deadeye... It's personal preference and in my opinion all of them should be viable.

    2) I HATE how broken dagger storm is.... but concede that it is our only saving grace currently. Nerf after nerf after buff jk nerf. I hit like a wet noodle. In full marauder gear with berserker trinkets my larceneous strike criteria for 6-7k~ with around 20+ stacks of might.
    My reaper shroud auto hits for way harder not to mention faster with trait. Soul beast auto can critical for 10k+ from range. We have nothing else that is on part with other classes. Dagger storm is so unfun to press for 4 and a half seconds of dodge and good damage with no counter play and it's not fun to be dagger stormed on.

    If you don't like DS then play Basilisk Venom. If you can't manage without DS then it's probably not broken OP but necessary in the current pew pew meta. It's basically like Rampage: Waste it and it does hardly anything for you or time it well and it wins fights... That's in my opinion ok for an elite. Also, no counter play is nonsense because there is after cast and (if you don't use another evade skill after) the opponent has a slight window to burst.
    The damage on S/D has been nerf'ed long time ago. But that is not the reason why people play these weapons. If you want big numbers, play 1-shot Daredevil/Deadeye or another class...

    3) I hate not having a role. We in zergs with every other medium class, and roaming is just getting 1v4 or 1v zerged. I'll have around 1 GOOD fightsevery 5-10 minutes or so. Maybe not bad to some but it's just a pitiful amount of action when compared to other games.

    As stated before: It sounds more like the game mode is the problem here. Take a break, play sPvP or try another class maybe?

    Fixes? I don't know. We have had so many nerfs over such a long period of time that we have gone the opposite direction of power creep.... power.... decay? With marauder gear I have 15k-16k hp.... what!?!

    Interesting. I have 17915 HP with full marauder's. Usually that should be enough. If you still need more HP you can use buff food or run Rune of Durability for 19773 HP. Yes, that lowers your damage even more but everyone has to decide whether go higher damage or more defense...

    I don't know how to fix it but I'll be playing ranger for now.... pew pew long bow 2....

    Good choice... Rangers are currently in a really good spot to roam and in small scale if you ask me. Great mobility, good damage and sustain plus some group support.

    I don't want to jump on the thief I'd trash bandwagon but I feel like I've been deluding myself that the class is fun. It requires 100% concentration to play and one mistake you are deadededed.

    As a thief main... seriously. Nerf dagger storm. It's not fun. And buff thief somehow to compensate.

    Dagger storm is 4 seconds on a 90s CD (which can be recharged with stealth+trait and good rng). If this skill where a problem at all then the whole game would be in a brilliant spot right now...

  • Belorn.2659Belorn.2659 Member ✭✭✭

    Thief is the best class within their themed specialty, which is to get quickly to a objective and take it solo without anyone catching them. It is the best class for wvw farming!

    For everything else, thief is between below average to the worst class for the role. It strength is in being the fastest class with the best escape tricks. Being fast in a zerg is unhelpful, and being able to escape death when everyone else is wiping is neat but not something the commander can use. Simply better to bring a other class if zerg play is what you want to do.

  • Well to be fair, most complaints in forum were against 3 classes; Mirage, DE and SB.
    One is Anet's pet - nothing to see here, one got butchered and one, well, ppl were too dumb to get out it's bubble so got that nerfed too.

  • Safandula.8723Safandula.8723 Member ✭✭✭

    If u don't want to play DE, than don't do it xD.
    I got the same feel about dagger storm, not fun to play with or against, but ur free to take basi(or thiefs guild kappa)
    But imo s/d is strong for roaming, no class should be able to kill any1, but s/d seems pretty balanced I think

  • The fact that there’s still a large chunk of the community that thinks thief is in a strong position leads me to think it will never get fixed lol just roll a different class or deal with an underperforming class unless u like DE playstyle

  • @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    The fact that there’s still a large chunk of the community that thinks thief is in a strong position leads me to think it will never get fixed lol just roll a different class or deal with an underperforming class unless u like DE playstyle

    The problem is twofold, in that the things people dislike about thief are the core things it's thematically built around; mobility, high damage, evades and stealth. The second issue is that thief has nothing else besides these concepts when it comes to build strengths. So you can't make everyone happy and have a functioning thief in PvP at the same time (especially when DE emphasises high damage and stealth, the most problematic combo of the core traits), because some people just hate it by default.

    Critical Kit, Deadeye.

  • Psycoprophet.8107Psycoprophet.8107 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 6, 2019

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    The fact that there’s still a large chunk of the community that thinks thief is in a strong position leads me to think it will never get fixed lol just roll a different class or deal with an underperforming class unless u like DE playstyle

    The problem is twofold, in that the things people dislike about thief are the core things it's thematically built around; mobility, high damage, evades and stealth. The second issue is that thief has nothing else besides these concepts when it comes to build strengths. So you can't make everyone happy and have a functioning thief in PvP at the same time (especially when DE emphasises high damage and stealth, the most problematic combo of the core traits), because some people just hate it by default.

    I agree. People want thiefs damage to be mediocre due to the annoying methods it’s uses to do its damage yet none of these care about any compensation like a buff in hp/sustain etc to make it stand a chance tie to toe with other classes, they’d be ok with the class just sucking cuz they don’t like it in general

  • juno.1840juno.1840 Member ✭✭✭

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:

    @Jugglemonkey.8741 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    The fact that there’s still a large chunk of the community that thinks thief is in a strong position leads me to think it will never get fixed lol just roll a different class or deal with an underperforming class unless u like DE playstyle

    The problem is twofold, in that the things people dislike about thief are the core things it's thematically built around; mobility, high damage, evades and stealth. The second issue is that thief has nothing else besides these concepts when it comes to build strengths. So you can't make everyone happy and have a functioning thief in PvP at the same time (especially when DE emphasises high damage and stealth, the most problematic combo of the core traits), because some people just hate it by default.

    I agree. People want thiefs damage to be mediocre due to the annoying methods it’s uses to do its damage yet none of these care about any compensation like a buff in hp/sustain etc to make it stand a chance tie to toe with other classes, they’d be ok with the class just sucking cuz they don’t like it in general

    I don't think people are against compensation in trade for eliminating the most hated elements. You don't see those conversations because those would be "part 2". You can't get there without finishing "part 1" which is fixing the hated elements.

  • oOStaticOo.9467oOStaticOo.9467 Member ✭✭✭

    I have made mention of giving Thieves extra endurance for more dodges or halving the amount of endurance used for dodges. I have mentioned giving them more HP. I've even mention giving them more ways to evade. Heck I've even mentioned giving them more utilities to use on 6-10 to compensate for either removing Stealth altogether or reworking it so that you can't use Stealth while in combat. Every one of them have been shot down because Thieves want to keep the status quo with Perma-Stealth capability.

  • lodjur.1284lodjur.1284 Member ✭✭✭

    @Dawdler.8521 said:

    @LaFurion.3167 said:
    I'll have around 1 GOOD fightsevery 5-10 minutes or so.

    Is this some kind of new metric? GFPM?

    So what would make the thief good? 0.3 GFPM? 0.7 GFPM? Whats the GFPM rating of the other classes? At how low GFPM would a class be considered unbalanced? Do they share the same GFPM or is there some sort of individual threshhold?

    I demand answers!

    1 good fight /10 min while roaming seems unrealistically high. In good days I get about 1 fight that isn't just getting overrun by a zerg or killing solo players while doing something else on my secondary screen every 30-45 min, on bad days I can roam 3-4 hours and find literally nothing. Op is clearly lying

    Ögonen omges av vita och svarta penseldrag som gör att de ser större ut än vad de egentligen är. Baksidan av lodjurets öron kantas av svart päls som slutar i den karaktäristiska tofsen högst upp på örat. Lodjurets svans är kortare än de flesta andra kattdjurs.

  • syszery.1592syszery.1592 Member ✭✭✭

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    I have made mention of giving Thieves extra endurance for more dodges or halving the amount of endurance used for dodges. I have mentioned giving them more HP. I've even mention giving them more ways to evade. Heck I've even mentioned giving them more utilities to use on 6-10 to compensate for either removing Stealth altogether or reworking it so that you can't use Stealth while in combat. Every one of them have been shot down because Thieves want to keep the status quo with Perma-Stealth capability.

    It's funny that you thing you exactly know how to balance a game or class. All your suggestions are bad because you would completely destroy one way to play thief and buff the other one to god mode. S/D thief with even more HP and quicker endurance regeneration, one additional dodge and and an additional utility slot on top? You made my day.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @syszery.1592 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    I have made mention of giving Thieves extra endurance for more dodges or halving the amount of endurance used for dodges. I have mentioned giving them more HP. I've even mention giving them more ways to evade. Heck I've even mentioned giving them more utilities to use on 6-10 to compensate for either removing Stealth altogether or reworking it so that you can't use Stealth while in combat. Every one of them have been shot down because Thieves want to keep the status quo with Perma-Stealth capability.

    It's funny that you thing you exactly know how to balance a game or class. All your suggestions are bad because you would completely destroy one way to play thief and buff the other one to god mode. S/D thief with even more HP and quicker endurance regeneration, one additional dodge and and an additional utility slot on top? You made my day.

    The build it self is perfectly fine as it is imo, it's just 80% of the rest of the game.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Etterwyn.5263 said:

    @Psycoprophet.8107 said:
    Another common cry is how they are able to reset fights and how annoying it is to fight a thief resetting and want thiefs mobility nurfed further yet no one mentions any compensation for the loss of mobility and low hp/sustain,the reason thief resets in first place is due to it not being able to sustain fights passed its burst because it can’t take a hit. Plus now soulbeast,mesmers and holo’s can reset as well lol

    That is why stealth is a garbage mechanic. This started in GW1 with the Assassin (thief's predecessor) and its cheap shadow-stepping. Anet decided to 1-up the cheese in GW2 and allow characters to be completely invisible.

    Being able to disengage from combat at will throws the whole risk/reward concept out the window. I have no problem losing a fight. I'm used to it =) But I have a real grievance when gaining the upper hand advantage and my opponent just disappears.

    I'd be fine with damage and sustain buffs to compensate for nerfng stealth to oblivion. It should be a tool for movement, a tool for gaining the upper hand by allowing a first strike from an advantageous position, but not a way out of the very fight you initiated when things don't go your way.

    You won't like the sustain/dmg buff at all. There was a time where people could actually fight using staff acro/daredevil but that got nerfed too much, this was when people used dust strike/deliberating arc (forgot it's name) correctly and usefully and never even touching vault.

    Thievs will port away because there is nothing to fight for so they lose nothing, find a thief and then fight over a camp, he won't be able to port reset if he always wants to defend the camp too.

  • oOStaticOo.9467oOStaticOo.9467 Member ✭✭✭

    @syszery.1592 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    I have made mention of giving Thieves extra endurance for more dodges or halving the amount of endurance used for dodges. I have mentioned giving them more HP. I've even mention giving them more ways to evade. Heck I've even mentioned giving them more utilities to use on 6-10 to compensate for either removing Stealth altogether or reworking it so that you can't use Stealth while in combat. Every one of them have been shot down because Thieves want to keep the status quo with Perma-Stealth capability.

    It's funny that you thing you exactly know how to balance a game or class. All your suggestions are bad because you would completely destroy one way to play thief and buff the other one to god mode. S/D thief with even more HP and quicker endurance regeneration, one additional dodge and and an additional utility slot on top? You made my day.

    I never said give them ALL of what I mentioned. I am saying that every option I tried to suggest as a way to balance out Thief by removing Stealth or changing it was shot down. No way in hell would I give Thief all of those things for a change in the Stealth mechanic. You completely misunderstood what I wrote or just read into it what you wanted like a lot of people often do to try to validate their point of view. Stealth is a broken and lazy mechanic for fighting somebody.

  • Emi.4152Emi.4152 Member ✭✭

    what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what?

  • oOStaticOo.9467oOStaticOo.9467 Member ✭✭✭

    @Emi.4152 said:
    what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what?

    Hyperbolic much? You can say the same thing for Rangers. They have no place in a Zerg, 3rd tier for solo roaming because Mesmer is obviously 1st tier and thief is 2nd, and other classes are better at small group roaming as well. So...........

  • syszery.1592syszery.1592 Member ✭✭✭

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:

    @syszery.1592 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    I have made mention of giving Thieves extra endurance for more dodges or halving the amount of endurance used for dodges. I have mentioned giving them more HP. I've even mention giving them more ways to evade. Heck I've even mentioned giving them more utilities to use on 6-10 to compensate for either removing Stealth altogether or reworking it so that you can't use Stealth while in combat. Every one of them have been shot down because Thieves want to keep the status quo with Perma-Stealth capability.

    It's funny that you thing you exactly know how to balance a game or class. All your suggestions are bad because you would completely destroy one way to play thief and buff the other one to god mode. S/D thief with even more HP and quicker endurance regeneration, one additional dodge and and an additional utility slot on top? You made my day.

    I never said give them ALL of what I mentioned. I am saying that every option I tried to suggest as a way to balance out Thief by removing Stealth or changing it was shot down. No way in hell would I give Thief all of those things for a change in the Stealth mechanic. You completely misunderstood what I wrote or just read into it what you wanted like a lot of people often do to try to validate their point of view. Stealth is a broken and lazy mechanic for fighting somebody.

    Ok, besides that every single change would be a strait buff to S/D core which is already well balanced and actually should be a reference point for other classes here is why I am grateful that you are not responsible for balancing:
    By removing stealth you would completely destroy Deadeye in every game mode (all your ideas are no compensation for the stealth attacks). The PvE dagger and rifle build focusses on building Malice and then use big damaging stealth attack. And more or less that's also what the PvP build does but on top it utilizes stealth as a defensive tool to position and so on. It's a little better for Daredevil because at least the PvE staff build would stay untouched - but D/P PvP would be heavily nerf'ed and maybe unplayable (since the auto attack on dagger is terrible now). What's left is S/D core which is terrible in PvE and as I already said doing well enough in PvP and WvW...

  • oOStaticOo.9467oOStaticOo.9467 Member ✭✭✭

    @syszery.1592 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:

    @syszery.1592 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:
    I have made mention of giving Thieves extra endurance for more dodges or halving the amount of endurance used for dodges. I have mentioned giving them more HP. I've even mention giving them more ways to evade. Heck I've even mentioned giving them more utilities to use on 6-10 to compensate for either removing Stealth altogether or reworking it so that you can't use Stealth while in combat. Every one of them have been shot down because Thieves want to keep the status quo with Perma-Stealth capability.

    It's funny that you thing you exactly know how to balance a game or class. All your suggestions are bad because you would completely destroy one way to play thief and buff the other one to god mode. S/D thief with even more HP and quicker endurance regeneration, one additional dodge and and an additional utility slot on top? You made my day.

    I never said give them ALL of what I mentioned. I am saying that every option I tried to suggest as a way to balance out Thief by removing Stealth or changing it was shot down. No way in hell would I give Thief all of those things for a change in the Stealth mechanic. You completely misunderstood what I wrote or just read into it what you wanted like a lot of people often do to try to validate their point of view. Stealth is a broken and lazy mechanic for fighting somebody.

    Ok, besides that every single change would be a strait buff to S/D core which is already well balanced and actually should be a reference point for other classes here is why I am grateful that you are not responsible for balancing:
    By removing stealth you would completely destroy Deadeye in every game mode (all your ideas are no compensation for the stealth attacks). The PvE dagger and rifle build focusses on building Malice and then use big damaging stealth attack. And more or less that's also what the PvP build does but on top it utilizes stealth as a defensive tool to position and so on. It's a little better for Daredevil because at least the PvE staff build would stay untouched - but D/P PvP would be heavily nerf'ed and maybe unplayable (since the auto attack on dagger is terrible now). What's left is S/D core which is terrible in PvE and as I already said doing well enough in PvP and WvW...

    Well of course you are. If you play or main Thief you obviously do not want any touches to your beloved class. I am not a Dev, I do not do balancing. They do. And what's to say that from my suggestions they couldn't find a way to balance Thief better. I did not name off specific ways to try to balance the class, just a broad suggestion on some things they could use to do so. It would be up to them to determine just which ones and how much would be needed to find a balance for it. Deadeye could get a buff to it's range, therefore turning it more into a sniper like most people suggest it is. Anything that relies on Stealth for damage could be reworked to include after dodge with a possible increase in dodges. Again, something for the Devs to figure out. I'm just giving out some examples. Things I would be willing to trade off for the removal or reworking of Stealth.

  • Fat Disgrace.4275Fat Disgrace.4275 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:

    @Emi.4152 said:
    what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what?

    Hyperbolic much? You can say the same thing for Rangers. They have no place in a Zerg, 3rd tier for solo roaming because Mesmer is obviously 1st tier and thief is 2nd, and other classes are better at small group roaming as well. So...........

    Ranger how ever can actually fight and has a far better chance at winning 1v1 compared to thief, it dosnt need to run off the slightest scratch because they can actually fight back.

  • oOStaticOo.9467oOStaticOo.9467 Member ✭✭✭

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:

    @Emi.4152 said:
    what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what?

    Hyperbolic much? You can say the same thing for Rangers. They have no place in a Zerg, 3rd tier for solo roaming because Mesmer is obviously 1st tier and thief is 2nd, and other classes are better at small group roaming as well. So...........

    Ranger how ever can actually fight and has a far better chance at winning 1v1 compared to thief, it dosnt need to run off the slightest scratch because they can actually fight back.

    Only if it is a sustained damage 1v1 does a Ranger win. Burst, Thief will win every time with their 1 shot from Stealth mechanic. Either they win from the lazy Stealth or they win because they keep resetting until they do.

  • Widmo.3186Widmo.3186 Member ✭✭✭

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:

    @Emi.4152 said:
    what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what?

    Hyperbolic much? You can say the same thing for Rangers. They have no place in a Zerg, 3rd tier for solo roaming because Mesmer is obviously 1st tier and thief is 2nd, and other classes are better at small group roaming as well. So...........

    Say what? Do you actually know nowadays state of Soulbeasts 1v1s? Its not even comparable to thief state, the only thing thief does better is more escape options and hit & run privilege. In everything else he is just pure imba, amount of healings, evades, damage, pressure, gap closers, even stealth (not mentioning permanent buff stacks). Its tier 1, same as mirage. Just dont start outnumbered fights and your roaming will be fine.

    Im talking solely about roaming and duels, nothing about zerging because there both thieves and rangers are at least not welcome.

    Dont mind me, I just randomly spam 35 skill-buttons

  • Arheundel.6451Arheundel.6451 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Only some time ago, WvW was plagued by pulmonary impact spammers and AA dagger doing absurd dmg...I don't miss them

    -A wise man once said- "Fight cheese with cheese or be cheesed in return, mind not those who will accuse you of being a cheese as they like cheese themselves"

  • Emi.4152Emi.4152 Member ✭✭

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:

    @Emi.4152 said:
    what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what?

    Hyperbolic much? You can say the same thing for Rangers. They have no place in a Zerg, 3rd tier for solo roaming because Mesmer is obviously 1st tier and thief is 2nd, and other classes are better at small group roaming as well. So...........

    rangers are actually a great 1 v 1 class Oo one of the best. mobility isn't far behind thief. I would argue its a better solo roamer and definitely far better in small groups. Would think mesmer, ranger, and warrior are better roamers. engi is incredible in small groups. If you think im just exaggerating, then please, what in your opinion should thieves actually be able to do in wvw? and are they able to do that now?

  • high risk, high reward, low risk, low reward.

    That is how it should be.

    Instead we got:
    thief (any thief class): no risk, high reward
    mirage: no risk, high reward
    soulbeast: no risk, high reward

    There would be easy things to solve the issue. Like removing stealth&perma evades. Or make losing clones doing damage to the mesmer is question.

  • DAN.7314DAN.7314 Member ✭✭

    I really like playing my thief, but unless you go the one trick pony 1 shot from stealth, you are at a disadvantage versus any class if you try and fight toe to toe. I am not a fan of in combat stealth. It's a really bad game design. There is no counter play. You stealth and go for the 1 shot, and if you fail you re-stealth and wait for cooldowns to reset and try again. I want fights. I avoid most fights on my thief, but just use it because of the great mobility to capture camps.

    I love the abilities of thief with S/D and shortbow (and the other weapon sets too), but just get straight up destroyed by most competent players on other classes. I actively see high rank players go after me on my thief, but they hesitate versus when I'm on other classes. They nerfed all thief builds because stealth made deadeye overpowered. Stealth was/is the problem, but now thief is so nerfed, asides for stealth, that if you don't use a stealth heavy build you are basically useless.

    Same story in PvP where thief has been designated to decap duties for a long time.

  • Nimon.7840Nimon.7840 Member ✭✭✭✭

    I really don't understand the QQ of thief mains. Well I play necro and QQ a lot as well.
    But I met a thief main, that never complained about thief, even in thief's current state (not speaking about deadeye). When he lost a fight, he told me, which mistake he made.
    But he said, that every class is beatable. Even against very good players, he considered all his matchups in favour of thief

  • @DAN.7314 said:
    I really like playing my thief, but unless you go the one trick pony 1 shot from stealth, you are at a disadvantage versus any class if you try and fight toe to toe. I am not a fan of in combat stealth. It's a really bad game design. There is no counter play. You stealth and go for the 1 shot, and if you fail you re-stealth and wait for cooldowns to reset and try again. I want fights. I avoid most fights on my thief, but just use it because of the great mobility to capture camps.

    I love the abilities of thief with S/D and shortbow (and the other weapon sets too), but just get straight up destroyed by most competent players on other classes. I actively see high rank players go after me on my thief, but they hesitate versus when I'm on other classes. They nerfed all thief builds because stealth made deadeye overpowered. Stealth was/is the problem, but now thief is so nerfed, asides for stealth, that if you don't use a stealth heavy build you are basically useless.

    Same story in PvP where thief has been designated to decap duties for a long time.

    So true!

  • @Nimon.7840 said:
    I really don't understand the QQ of thief mains. Well I play necro and QQ a lot as well.
    But I met a thief main, that never complained about thief, even in thief's current state (not speaking about deadeye). When he lost a fight, he told me, which mistake he made.
    But he said, that every class is beatable. Even against very good players, he considered all his matchups in favour of thief

    Haha yeah sounds legit

  • Emi.4152Emi.4152 Member ✭✭

    @Nimon.7840 said:
    I really don't understand the QQ of thief mains. Well I play necro and QQ a lot as well.
    But I met a thief main, that never complained about thief, even in thief's current state (not speaking about deadeye). When he lost a fight, he told me, which mistake he made.
    But he said, that every class is beatable. Even against very good players, he considered all his matchups in favour of thief

    although true to an extent but... pointless. by that logic, wheres the limit then? as a thief you'd have to go full on esports to beat any random bronze player you come across? at the moment it's already getting close to that!

  • Inoki.6048Inoki.6048 Member ✭✭✭
    edited January 8, 2019

    @syszery.1592 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:

    @Fat Disgrace.4275 said:

    @oOStaticOo.9467 said:

    @Emi.4152 said:
    what EXACTLY should a thief be able to do in wvw? because at the moment thief is barely 2nd tier for solo roaming only because of the ability to get away most of the time, 1 v 1 matchups are horrible for thief. small group roaming... there are at least 3 classes much better for this. zerging... useless. whats the point? are we just supposed to quit the game or what?

    Hyperbolic much? You can say the same thing for Rangers. They have no place in a Zerg, 3rd tier for solo roaming because Mesmer is obviously 1st tier and thief is 2nd, and other classes are better at small group roaming as well. So...........

    Ranger how ever can actually fight and has a far better chance at winning 1v1 compared to thief, it dosnt need to run off the slightest scratch because they can actually fight back.

    Only if it is a sustained damage 1v1 does a Ranger win. Burst, Thief will win every time with their 1 shot from Stealth mechanic. Either they win from the lazy Stealth or they win because they keep resetting until they do.

    Yes, ranger does not have good burst...

    What the hell happened there 😱

    This game is seriously going downhill. They're making it an FPS.

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