I don't like the state of thief

I have been maiming thief for 4 months now, playing it exclusively since I crafted bolt and incinerator for it. I am very sad to say that while I had a tonne of fun for the first month or so, I find thief just not fun.

Here are my 2 cents.

1) dead eye. This is not fun to me. I don't like stealthing forever and trying to one shot gimmick some noob looking at map. That's all this elite spec does.

2) I HATE how broken dagger storm is.... but concede that it is our only saving grace currently. Nerf after nerf after buff jk nerf. I hit like a wet noodle. In full marauder gear with berserker trinkets my larceneous strike criteria for 6-7k~ with around 20+ stacks of might.

My reaper shroud auto hits for way harder not to mention faster with trait. Soul beast auto can critical for 10k+ from range. We have nothing else that is on part with other classes. Dagger storm is so unfun to press for 4 and a half seconds of dodge and good damage with no counter play and it's not fun to be dagger stormed on.

3) I hate not having a role. We in zergs with every other medium class, and roaming is just getting 1v4 or 1v zerged. I'll have around 1 GOOD fightsevery 5-10 minutes or so. Maybe not bad to some but it's just a pitiful amount of action when compared to other games.

Fixes? I don't know. We have had so many nerfs over such a long period of time that we have gone the opposite direction of power creep.... power.... decay? With marauder gear I have 15k-16k hp.... what!?!

I don't know how to fix it but I'll be playing ranger for now.... pew pew long bow 2....

I don't want to jump on the thief I'd trash bandwagon but I feel like I've been deluding myself that the class is fun. It requires 100% concentration to play and one mistake you are deadededed.

As a thief main... seriously. Nerf dagger storm. It's not fun. And buff thief somehow to compensate.

@LaFurion.3167 said:I have been maiming thief for 4 months now, playing it exclusively since I crafted bolt and incinerator for it. I am very sad to say that while I had a tonne of fun for the first month or so, I find thief just not fun.

Here are my 2 cents.

1) dead eye. This is not fun to me. I don't like stealthing forever and trying to one shot gimmick some noob looking at map. That's all this elite spec does.

2) I HATE how broken dagger storm is.... but concede that it is our only saving grace currently. Nerf after nerf after buff jk nerf. I hit like a wet noodle. In full marauder gear with berserker trinkets my larceneous strike criteria for 6-7k~ with around 20+ stacks of might.

My reaper shroud auto hits for way harder not to mention faster with trait. Soul beast auto can critical for 10k+ from range. We have nothing else that is on part with other classes. Dagger storm is so unfun to press for 4 and a half seconds of dodge and good damage with no counter play and it's not fun to be dagger stormed on.

3) I hate not having a role. We in zergs with every other medium class, and roaming is just getting 1v4 or 1v zerged. I'll have around 1 GOOD fightsevery 5-10 minutes or so. Maybe not bad to some but it's just a pitiful amount of action when compared to other games.

Fixes? I don't know. We have had so many nerfs over such a long period of time that we have gone the opposite direction of power creep.... power.... decay? With marauder gear I have 15k-16k hp.... what!?!

I don't know how to fix it but I'll be playing ranger for now.... pew pew long bow 2....

I don't want to jump on the thief I'd trash bandwagon but I feel like I've been deluding myself that the class is fun. It requires 100% concentration to play and one mistake you are deadededed.

As a thief main... seriously. Nerf dagger storm. It's not fun. And buff thief somehow to compensate.

I agree thief core/DD being underperforming now after so many yrs of nurfs but get ready for a lot to f DE players and non thief players roasting u saying their in a great spot lol

T_T so sad.... I wish it was better.

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:

@LaFurion.3167 said:I have been maiming thief for 4 months now, playing it exclusively since I crafted bolt and incinerator for it. I am very sad to say that while I had a tonne of fun for the first month or so, I find thief just not fun.

Here are my 2 cents.

1) dead eye. This is not fun to me. I don't like stealthing forever and trying to one shot gimmick some noob looking at map. That's all this elite spec does.

2) I HATE how broken dagger storm is.... but concede that it is our only saving grace currently. Nerf after nerf after buff jk nerf. I hit like a wet noodle. In full marauder gear with berserker trinkets my larceneous strike criteria for 6-7k~ with around 20+ stacks of might.

My reaper shroud auto hits for way harder not to mention faster with trait. Soul beast auto can critical for 10k+ from range. We have nothing else that is on part with other classes. Dagger storm is so unfun to press for 4 and a half seconds of dodge and good damage with no counter play and it's not fun to be dagger stormed on.

3) I hate not having a role. We in zergs with every other medium class, and roaming is just getting 1v4 or 1v zerged. I'll have around 1 GOOD fightsevery 5-10 minutes or so. Maybe not bad to some but it's just a pitiful amount of action when compared to other games.

Fixes? I don't know. We have had so many nerfs over such a long period of time that we have gone the opposite direction of power creep.... power.... decay? With marauder gear I have 15k-16k hp.... what!?!

I don't know how to fix it but I'll be playing ranger for now.... pew pew long bow 2....

I don't want to jump on the thief I'd trash bandwagon but I feel like I've been deluding myself that the class is fun. It requires 100% concentration to play and one mistake you are deadededed.

As a thief main... seriously. Nerf dagger storm. It's not fun. And buff thief somehow to compensate.

I main an engie...cry me a river.

What role do you want to have?

It amazes me a class can receive so many nurfs that it is a class now relegated to a +1 decap role. The numerous nurfs over the yrs has changed thief to a degree that it’s very own in game description no longer applies to its current iteration.ive heard many top thief players on streams etc raging over fellow thief players trying to 1v1 and getting downed, even the top players don’t want to chance a 1v1. So before people start saying I and others must suck and that they can duel against any class,than why do these really skilled players avoid duels and only +1?how is an average player gonna fare? It has been brought to arenet attention that thief’s in game discription is opisite of their current playstyle and their reply was thief isn’t meant to duel but is meant to be a +1 fighter. That seems like a excuse for not admitting they went too far with nurfs and now it’s in a state that it has to fight opponents distracted or injured to not be st a disadvantage? That’s not a role that should even exist imho.i could see classes that are strait bruisers taking on 1v2 being a thing but a role that’s +1? A class widely known as a +1 is literally stating it is at a disadvantage in a 1v1 no? Thief relies on quick burst and back stabs to down opponents and that was balanced by low hp/sustain and ur defensive strategy was using ur mobility to avoid damage. Over the yrs damage and mobility have been lowered all they while other classes saw increase in damage and mobility with blocks and invulnerability thrown ontop so now thief players are left with a shell of what they once were pitted up against these new powercrept classes. DE uses perma stealth tactics to be most effective and core/DD use their quickness to +1 an opponent or down already injured opponents which produces more salty players than other playstyles so non thief players will always rally for thief nurfs. I also am not a DE fan and I apologize for the wall of text

Sneaky DE complaint thread.

You use stealth, you don't worry about.

Take Basilik Venom.

Another common cry is how they are able to reset fights and how annoying it is to fight a thief resetting and want thiefs mobility nurfed further yet no one mentions any compensation for the loss of mobility and low hp/sustain,the reason thief resets in first place is due to it not being able to sustain fights passed its burst because it can’t take a hit. Plus now soulbeast,mesmers and holo’s can reset as well lol

@"LaFurion.3167" said:I have been maiming thief

LOL

If you look at the buff pattern/nerf pattern of ANet, you can clearly draw the line that you either play Deadeye or you are severely handicapping yourself. At one point about a year back, ANet was actually buffing Deadeye trait line and nerfing all other core Thief and hard nerfing DD (RIP Dash) thereby moving all the special improvements to DE thereby forcing the Deadeye's mechanics. So here you are in the state of Thief today...after a core mechanic of survivability of thief being nerfed.

With WvW players whining about an overpowered Rifle trait (rightfully so) allowing easy perma-stealth amongst other things but what ANet did to fix in the more recent months update was not to modify the overpowered rifle trait problem but instead nerf all thief stealth builds. Thanks to the stealth nerf with Detected!, Anet does not even want core Thief played in this game mode at the moment since they dialed stealth nerf too high which means now the only truly good Thief build is now Staff evasion (which pales in comparison to Mirage). You can still run a loner/roamer Thief build and do OK in WvW but ...

TL;DR Until DE burst/rifle is nerfed, Thief remains at the bottom and only the best/most dedicated Thief players remain. Warrior is not far behind. Best move on to a new class or a new ... well ... you know.

@"Jaruselka.5943" said:I main an engie...cry me a river.

https://metabattle.com/wiki/Build:Scrapper_-_Med_Kit_Scrapper

Plenty of other options too with Holosmith for roaming ... I get it, core Engin is kind of meh but condi Engin is still pretty darn good for roaming.

@Artaz.3819 said:

@"LaFurion.3167" said:I have been maiming thief

Ranger,mirage and holo are obviously ur other best Roamer but I find them boring so that’s why I said guard even tho it’s not a Roamer lol

I'd love them to make the "roaming"classes viable in the zerg, and the "zerg"classes viable as roamers. Then all the stealth this, mobility that arguments could go away.

@"Kaiser.9873" said:I'd love them to make the "roaming"classes viable in the zerg, and the "zerg"classes viable as roamers. Then all the stealth this, mobility that arguments could go away.

That's why we are supposed to have elite specs, so we can have professions get a variety of roles. But no, let's make yet another cancerous roaming spec for thief with permastealth and rifle, instead of giving them a spec that is good in a zerg. Let's make another AoE bombing spec for necro with no mobility. Let's make another ele spec that needs full defensive stats to not die instantly, so they are forced to stick to the zerg again. You could go on and on.

Over the years whatever made thief unique and useful or fun or strong has slowly been given to other classes while thief has gotten nothing else but nerfs, this on top of the fact that from the get go when thief was a "strong" class some years ago ( yes thats how long its been utter shit ) it was still considered a difficult class because its very active and has no passive mitigation makes thief currently below utter shit tier.Its laughable how much effort and exhaustion thief has to put in to do a 1v1 properly and all of this because of what? Short bow 5?Hurdur thief is a mobile +1 class. These days every class is a mobile +1 class...

Im not saying its impossible to win, but at this point it went from patting myself on the back for beating players in 1v1s or 2v1s in pvp and wvw to just thinking theyre flat out retarded and feeling depressed about my class. Yes i am ever so slightly upset.

IMHO the problem is that during nerfs Anet punish whole thief class instead of Elite spec. But of course commerce is first.

@LaFurion.3167 said:I'll have around 1 GOOD fightsevery 5-10 minutes or so.Is this some kind of new metric? GFPM?

So what would make the thief good? 0.3 GFPM? 0.7 GFPM? Whats the GFPM rating of the other classes? At how low GFPM would a class be considered unbalanced? Do they share the same GFPM or is there some sort of individual threshhold?

I demand answers!

There are no "roaming" or "zerg" classes.

Mesmer has been a top roamer for the entire game, yet at worst it had a small niche role in zergs (veilbot) and much of the time it has been more than that as support, granted not exactly necro/guard levels, but still wanted in more numbers than it was simply as a veilbot and more than engy, ranger, thief have ever been.

Same thing with warrior, compare to it engy for roaming, for much of the game it has been about as good or at times even better, yet it has fared way better in large scale.

Then beyond that there is no comparison between effectiveness, you can roam on anything and do fine, even the weakest classes for roaming like necro are far stronger at that, than things like ranger, thief, engy have been at zergs pretty much the entire game.

The difference is the things certain classes lack when it comes to roaming, mobility / disengage for instance, just mean they will die more because they can't pick their fights as often, but in most cases they can still fight as well as any other class, but in large scale some classes are simply a mile behind because of design (the game was not designed for the WvW fluff project) and mechanics that simply don't work in that situation.

There is a delusion on this forum from some that they balance/design for WvW, they don't, at least not to any useful extent. The combat/mechanics/skills/traits were designed around PvP, because the Anet view at the start of the game was PvP was the serious bit and PvE/WvW were fluff. Then for 3 years they balanced virtually entirely around PvP (remember those Twitch streams at balance patches where nearly every change was down to PvP). Then with HoT they started to balance for PvE raids also, WvW just as always got nothing but the odd change and it has been that way ever since.

"Balance" in WvW is simply whatever sticks from changes they make for PvP/PvE, which is why unlike PvP or PvE, class "balance" is non-existent and does not really change. And of course is one of the reasons the game mode is basically dead.

@LaFurion.3167 said:I have been maiming thief for 4 months now, playing it exclusively since I crafted bolt and incinerator for it. I am very sad to say that while I had a tonne of fun for the first month or so, I find thief just not fun.

Maybe it's not due to the thief profession alone but also because WvW is in such a terrible spot at the moment?

Here are my 2 cents.

1) dead eye. This is not fun to me. I don't like stealthing forever and trying to one shot gimmick some noob looking at map. That's all this elite spec does.

That's ok. Core S/D is much fun to play, Daredevil D/P also. And guess what: There are even people who like Deadeye... It's personal preference and in my opinion all of them should be viable.

2) I HATE how broken dagger storm is.... but concede that it is our only saving grace currently. Nerf after nerf after buff jk nerf. I hit like a wet noodle. In full marauder gear with berserker trinkets my larceneous strike criteria for 6-7k~ with around 20+ stacks of might.My reaper shroud auto hits for way harder not to mention faster with trait. Soul beast auto can critical for 10k+ from range. We have nothing else that is on part with other classes. Dagger storm is so unfun to press for 4 and a half seconds of dodge and good damage with no counter play and it's not fun to be dagger stormed on.

If you don't like DS then play Basilisk Venom. If you can't manage without DS then it's probably not broken OP but necessary in the current pew pew meta. It's basically like Rampage: Waste it and it does hardly anything for you or time it well and it wins fights... That's in my opinion ok for an elite. Also, no counter play is nonsense because there is after cast and (if you don't use another evade skill after) the opponent has a slight window to burst.The damage on S/D has been nerf'ed long time ago. But that is not the reason why people play these weapons. If you want big numbers, play 1-shot Daredevil/Deadeye or another class...

3) I hate not having a role. We in zergs with every other medium class, and roaming is just getting 1v4 or 1v zerged. I'll have around 1 GOOD fightsevery 5-10 minutes or so. Maybe not bad to some but it's just a pitiful amount of action when compared to other games.

As stated before: It sounds more like the game mode is the problem here. Take a break, play sPvP or try another class maybe?

Fixes? I don't know. We have had so many nerfs over such a long period of time that we have gone the opposite direction of power creep.... power.... decay? With marauder gear I have 15k-16k hp.... what!?!

Interesting. I have 17915 HP with full marauder's. Usually that should be enough. If you still need more HP you can use buff food or run Rune of Durability for 19773 HP. Yes, that lowers your damage even more but everyone has to decide whether go higher damage or more defense...

I don't know how to fix it but I'll be playing ranger for now.... pew pew long bow 2....

Good choice... Rangers are currently in a really good spot to roam and in small scale if you ask me. Great mobility, good damage and sustain plus some group support.

I don't want to jump on the thief I'd trash bandwagon but I feel like I've been deluding myself that the class is fun. It requires 100% concentration to play and one mistake you are deadededed.

As a thief main... seriously. Nerf dagger storm. It's not fun. And buff thief somehow to compensate.

Dagger storm is 4 seconds on a 90s CD (which can be recharged with stealth+trait and good rng). If this skill where a problem at all then the whole game would be in a brilliant spot right now...

Thief is the best class within their themed specialty, which is to get quickly to a objective and take it solo without anyone catching them. It is the best class for wvw farming!

For everything else, thief is between below average to the worst class for the role. It strength is in being the fastest class with the best escape tricks. Being fast in a zerg is unhelpful, and being able to escape death when everyone else is wiping is neat but not something the commander can use. Simply better to bring a other class if zerg play is what you want to do.

Well to be fair, most complaints in forum were against 3 classes; Mirage, DE and SB.One is Anet's pet - nothing to see here, one got butchered and one, well, ppl were too dumb to get out it's bubble so got that nerfed too.

If u don't want to play DE, than don't do it xD.I got the same feel about dagger storm, not fun to play with or against, but ur free to take basi(or thiefs guild kappa)But imo s/d is strong for roaming, no class should be able to kill any1, but s/d seems pretty balanced I think

The fact that there’s still a large chunk of the community that thinks thief is in a strong position leads me to think it will never get fixed lol just roll a different class or deal with an underperforming class unless u like DE playstyle

@Psycoprophet.8107 said:The fact that there’s still a large chunk of the community that thinks thief is in a strong position leads me to think it will never get fixed lol just roll a different class or deal with an underperforming class unless u like DE playstyle

The problem is twofold, in that the things people dislike about thief are the core things it's thematically built around; mobility, high damage, evades and stealth. The second issue is that thief has nothing else besides these concepts when it comes to build strengths. So you can't make everyone happy and have a functioning thief in PvP at the same time (especially when DE emphasises high damage and stealth, the most problematic combo of the core traits), because some people just hate it by default.