Spoilers - Resurrection of a certain character — Guild Wars 2 Forums

Spoilers - Resurrection of a certain character

cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

So, in countless discussion threads there has been mention of Aurene's resurrection "invalidating" the emotions created in this episode. "Cheesy writing." "Deus ex machina." Countless others expert critiques on the matter.

But how many have actually stopped to weigh the decision of resurrecting her could have and how much sense it already makes to do so?

  1. Ogden mentions the death of a lich is part of the prophecy.
  2. Aurene eats Joko - a lich - that up until that point has never been able to actually die. Because he was consumed by a being that actually eats magic itself. A being that is also known to be able to use said magic - example: Any elder dragon using deceased elder dragon magic, Balth and Aurene both being able to enter and exit the mists as they please due to Balthazar's magic.
  3. Years worth of bonding with this character and being a part of her destiny to fulfill this prophecy that was reinforced in this very episode.
  4. Glint pulling Aurene aside to mention that there are other aspects of Ascenscion that she needs to hear about and that we won't understand.
  5. We have no other back-up story-wise right now that will allow us to fix the damage that will be done if we finish Kralk off, and as easy I can see them finding a way for us to finish Kralk off story-wise if he isn't just slowly bleeding out already we don't technically have a guaranteed way to kill him leaving us needing to find a solution for that first. (A solution that could span an entire season which at the current rate could be two real-life years for all we know. In which we, what? Have this wounded, almost dead elder dragon just chilling out while we find some magical solution that could have worked without Aurene making Aurene's plot entirely pointless?
  6. We have the branding of Caithe, as well as seeing Aurene earlier in the trials come back from her talk with Glint as changed and glowing herself.
  7. Aurene isn't shattered like Glint when she's dead, she isn't crystallized like Glint and Vlast were before-hand... which we've also been communicating with throughout this entire journey due to said crystallization upon-death.
  8. We have an awakened Sylvari in this very same episode acknowledging that a minion or elder dragon descendent can in fact be awakened, meaning whatever magic Joko uses is strong enough or operates on some level that makes it able to resurrect things created from elder dragons. And if a prospective elder dragon happens to gain said magic, what implications might that have?

If Aurene is resurrected and becomes the solution to our Kralk problem, whether after we recklessly defeat him because we know we have to due to his devouring of the mists and we know this is the best opportunity we may get right now or she helps us in that final fight.... how would the emotions we were expected to feel this episode be lessened or negated completely as people imply?

  1. Her death in this episode and revival next episode would lessen the deus-ex-dragon stigma she's been branded with ever since she ate Joko, and it would validate Joko's death as well as Ogden's words this episode of his death being part of the prophecy.
  2. Kralk may be prophetic and able to sense things, but would he really sense Joko dying or know that it's even possible for Aurene to return to life due to said magic? Doesn't seem like he would, which would give us an advantage to finishing him off in the next episode.
  3. The emotions of her death this episode could be what fuels us to finish Kralk off next episode, and Aurene's revival can come after the fact to clean up the mess, so it will have still served a purpose.
  4. We don't know what her and Glint talked about, and death may have been necessary for her Ascenscion?
  5. The death in this episode may be part of their general plan to separate us from Aurene moving forward, so that she CAN fulfil the role of an Elder Dragon without being this be-all solution for us in future plots. Perhaps this very death is what severs our bond with Aurene moving forward, despite being resurrected, and that's part of what this scene with Caithe is really about. It could be about showing us that this bond between us is broken. So if she comes back to life, she's free from that bond. She's free to take her own place as an Elder Dragon without responsibility toward us. She's fulfilled her destiny and now we're on our own. She can't just sense when we're in trouble and send us some flowery branded back-up. She has essentially mirrored what Kormir did in the first game. This death may allow her to sever all her bonds and her current ties, and between this and the talk she had with Glint about Ascenscion this may just be exactly what is needed to prep her for becoming Kralk's replacement. This would also be a good story excuse for what she's not just swooping in and saving us in future fights. (Which, again, she only did thus far ultimately because it's what her destiny led her to do while on the path to becoming an elder dragon.)
  6. Keep in mind, all we really see is Aurene impaled, Caithe saying the connection is gone and her branding falling off, and Taimi screaming. Then it just cuts out, straight to black. It would seem if their goal was to have some huge emotional response to her death, they would have had follow up banter per usual with the rest of our team. They would have created a time for us to mourn after this encounter. But following it up with pitch black and ending it right there? Why do that unless to pick up right where it left off next episode? (Granted that's something they've never done and for some reason always default to mail or comms and to some degree understandably because if you start the story in the middle of lion's arch it would be a little weird trying to teleport the player back into the previous instance. One reason why these kinds of cliffhangers are annoying and not really fit for this style of story-telling imo.)

Aurene stays dead:

  1. We are left with a grief-ridden team including a dying Asura that just had a close friend die, and now everything in her life is just death death death and misery....
  2. The entire prophecy was a lie, or just some necessary step to lead us to plan b.
  3. The story has been based around this character for the past few years, and in the end amounted to her just being some martyr that leads us to our next destination.
  4. Aurene enters the mists and fulfills the exact same role that Glint does, but for some reason both of them being in the mists now allows them to fulfill the prophecy and kill Kralk. (Because for some reason Glint couldn't do this on her own and the key to their success was being in the same plane of existence and giving each other emotional support.)
  5. We spent years getting to this point only to have to turn in a different direction, and spend another year or two years (still far less time than the time we've spent with Aurene and her as an egg), trying to find another solution. We find one, and then everything beforehand just feels cheesy and unnecessary.
  6. Said solution we find may be something you think is cool like the staff of the mists, the weapon Vlast talked about - the weapon that does the work of elder dragons. - Okay, great, so the people complaining about Aurene being the solution to all future problems just got a weapon introduced that has no personality or story background with us and can solve all future elder dragon problems. Great trade, and it only took a few short episodes to get.

This is a bit of a mess, but ultimately, it's just frustrating seeing people reiterate that Aurene's resurrection would trash the story of this episode, without taking into account the many ways it's already been hinted at or the many ways it already makes perfect sense. And from my point of view the only sense. It's the best way that I'm seeing from a story perspective to resolve this plot with Kralk, which could be a very long and rewarding pay-off for years worth of story development that didn't just involve Airship blasting tails and wings or assaulting the mind and body of a dragon. Not only does it create a rewarding pay-off for those years worth of story, but it also creates a blank slate moving forward.

There are parts of this game's story that make far less sense than Joko's magic resurrecting/repairing Aurene and the parts of it that do not make sense can be far more easily explained than going in a different direction and then attempting to justify that direction change. Sorry, but as cheesy or however much it undermined the "emotional impact" of this episode, having this entire prophecy and bonding with this character only exist as a mere step guiding us in a different direction toward the real resolution or a setback among many setbacks on the way there instead of the actual resolution would be far worse for me.

Comments

  • The title is allready a spoiler...

  • Narcemus.1348Narcemus.1348 Member ✭✭✭

    I agree with you that reviving due to Joko's magic would make sense, except for 1 thing. Joko was never allowed to die and then be resurrected by his magic. His magic just kept him alive indefinitely. When we think we kill him, he just slowly stands up and pops his bones back into place, whereas in this episode we are pretty driven to see that Aurene is dead, going as far as to break Caithe's connection to her. I'm not saying that it is impossible, but all I keep thinking about from the replayability standpoint is going through this episode and the next episode and viewing this terrible scene and feeling dread and depression about the future and then starting the next episode to hear a comm from Taimi saying "It's okay Commander! Aurene is back to life! We can do this!"

    I feel like for the impact of this death to make any sense there at least needs to be 1 or 2 episodes of grieving before we can just bring her right back from the dead, which is exactly what Joko's magic would have done. I understand that you may disagree with me on this subject, and that is fine. I just feel like us players have been asking for actual meaningful deaths of characters rather than just meeting a character to watch it die the next episode ever since the Mentors. And I feel like ArenaNet deserves credit for giving us a death that truly emotionally impact nearly every player.

  • ugrakarma.9416ugrakarma.9416 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Something so explicit and "easy" will become a very poor narrative. If it is so simple("hey its all fine, remember she had joko powers") to ressuscitate aurene, so why killed it? i doubt its goes that way.

    "It's a testament to the folly of the humans and their gods. They say Arah was sacred, but all I see is one big dragon nest."(Rytlock Brimstone)

  • I'm glad to see someone thinking along the same lines as I was! As soon as Aurene ate Joko, I thought to myself, "Well, that was on purpose. We're going to see that come back at us, sooner or later."

    I don't think Aurene will be immediately resurrected in the next episode...or if she is, it won't be "her." I.e. it will be Joko's mind. (And wouldn't that be a scary thing.) But considering we've been tagging along behind her for years since literally Labyrinthine Cliffs, sweeping her out of the story now just doesn't seem logical. And the simplest way to bring her back into play would be Joko's necrotic energy.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    Something so explicit and "easy" will become a very poor narrative. If it is so simple("hey its all fine, remember she had joko powers") to ressuscitate aurene, so why killed it? i doubt its goes that way.

    The character making the assumption she can just be brought back wouldn’t happen because the character doesn’t think like the player. And as far as the player goes the reason for her death in this episode can be explained just as well as changing direction and finding some other solution out of thin air.

    As to joko never actually dying, I believe Arenanet said in Guild chat that Aurene was a corpse? But what did they say specifically? Because Joko was undead and technically a corpse.... Besides, the screen cuts to black as soon as we see Aurene, it’s probably the same amount of time that passes between when we defeated Joko in Kourna and when he started getting back up and reassembling.

    We also don’t know when Joko got his lich abilities or how. He could have got them pre-death meaning that whatever his magic is would only make him as a living being susceptible to one death. There is too much we don’t know about Joko and his magic to discredit the idea that Aurene is capable of coming back with it.

  • perilisk.1874perilisk.1874 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Narcemus.1348 said:
    I agree with you that reviving due to Joko's magic would make sense, except for 1 thing. Joko was never allowed to die and then be resurrected by his magic. His magic just kept him alive indefinitely.

    Technically, Joko was already undead when we met him, and continued to be undead. Transitioning from alive to dead to Awakened may be a little different.

    @ugrakarma.9416 said:
    Something so explicit and "easy" will become a very poor narrative. If it is so simple("hey its all fine, remember she had joko powers") to ressuscitate aurene, so why killed it? i doubt its goes that way.

    Well, it makes for a powerful conclusion to the episode -- and just because it's "easy" (in the sense that the Commander doesn't have to do anything to bring her back) doesn't mean that it can't cause the plot to go a different direction that it would have if she survived (much like the plot would have gone a very different direction if the Commander found a different way to kill Joko, or sealed him away, or their battle ended in a stalemate).

    Notwithstanding the opportunity for some good character moments, the Commander and Aurene are reading off of different pages (the Commander fears Aurene will die, but Aurene fears being corrupted, and they even perceive the vision in Ep4 differently as a result). Glint acknowledges it briefly, but deliberately avoids setting the Commander straight, even though she could have easily told the Commander "Make sure she doesn't get Branded. If she dies, well, no biggie.". That suggests that the Commander's false belief that Aurene is dead will end up playing a role in the prophecy, the same way that the antagonism between the Commander and Joko did.

  • Damacon.1906Damacon.1906 Member
    edited January 21, 2019

    In a certain part of the fight against Kralk someone says: "I am getting the reading that Kralk is using Zaithan's magic". This endorses your theory that Aurene could actually use the magic of Palawa Joko.

  • @Damacon.1906 said:
    In a certain part of the fight against Kralk someone says: "I am getting the reading that Kralk is using Zaithan's magic". This endorses your theory that Aurene could actually use the magic of Palawa Joko.

    Not really. We've known since Season 3 that Elder Dragons can take up the domains of the killed Elder Dragons. Primordus took plant and shadows, while Kralkatorrik took mind and death by what we've seen. It was revealed in Season 3 that Mordremoth also took death magic from Zhaitan, and Jormag tried to take plant and death but was too far away to successfully get a lot of it. Kralkatorrik also took power from Balthazar. Aurene also took some magic from Mordremoth and Balthazar, too.

    But unlike Joko, these are grand beings of cosmic powers that they're taking domains from. The only real oddity is Balthazar giving Kralkatorrik and Aurene dimension-hopping abilities - which should be noted that neither got fire magic despite Balthazar being all about fire and war, and while it's hard to depict what "war magic" would look like, we see nothing of that sort either.

    We see the Elder Dragons take in more mundane magic all the time, such as Zhaitan consuming Orrian artifacts. We also know that they siphon off of the ley lines, which is all Tyrian magic combined; Primordus being awake 50 years before Jormag, 100 before Zhaitan, and 200 before Kralk and Mordremoth, by all rights should have been capable of stealing some ice, death, shadow, crystal, plant, mind, and whatever Jormag's and Kralkatorrik's second domains are. Despite having clear access. And with no means of them consuming the magic, there's no reason for him to put it aside for the others (they're not exactly allies).

    It ultimately depends on the form of Joko's magic. if it was mundane, then there's zero reason it would give Aurene special powers, since all Elder Dragons have been eating all sorts of magic, and not just the magic of their domains. If "eat magic, gain magic" was the rule, then there wouldn't be an "Elder Fire Dragon" or "Elder Crystal Dragon" they'd all primarily be thematically the same.

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  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Joko doesn't have invincible magic.. he was a Lich.
    There's a lot of speculation regarding how Liches work in Gw2 but the general rule in a lot of fantasy games and works of fiction is that they put their soul into an item or phylactery.. and the only way to truly kill a Lich is to destroy the item binding them to the world after death.

    I do think Anet need to give us more details on Lich's in the Guildwars universe and go into detail on Joko's demise as well.
    So far the only 2 major Liches in Guildwars have died.. one to a Dragon through unspecified conditions and the other had his soul absorbed by a bloodstone way back in Guildwars 1 (although there is an ascended ring item in Gw2 which claims to be that lich's phylactery)

    I've a theory that Joko too had a phylactery and it was his mouth ring.. and odd piece of jewelry he has had for his entire run in the franchise and also the ony thing that could have been broken during his death.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Joko doesn't have invincible magic.. he was a Lich.
    There's a lot of speculation regarding how Liches work in Gw2 but the general rule in a lot of fantasy games and works of fiction is that they put their soul into an item or phylactery.. and the only way to truly kill a Lich is to destroy the item binding them to the world after death.

    I do think Anet need to give us more details on Lich's in the Guildwars universe and go into detail on Joko's demise as well.
    So far the only 2 major Liches in Guildwars have died.. one to a Dragon through unspecified conditions and the other had his soul absorbed by a bloodstone way back in Guildwars 1 (although there is an ascended ring item in Gw2 which claims to be that lich's phylactery)

    I've a theory that Joko too had a phylactery and it was his mouth ring.. and odd piece of jewelry he has had for his entire run in the franchise and also the ony thing that could have been broken during his death.

    Not really unspecified conditions though. She ate not just his body but all that fancy magic that kept him alive so long and made him what he was practically POPPED when she bit into him.

    From a logic-standpoint, it would seem pretty risky wearing the artifact that's giving you immortality on your face. Especially if you're getting into a bunch of fights and at any point you could take a spear or blunt object to the face and have it smash the ring or something. lol

    I really hate that the most we got from Joko and his backstory was some minor text at Halloween. Thus another reason why I'm hoping Aurene is brought back via Joko's magic, to give Arenanet the opportunity to at least give us somekind of vision or backstory on Joko and his involvement or his magic's involvement in the grand scheme of things. If they did that, it would also probably lessen some of the naysayer's saltiness about her coming back via Joko. It seems a lot of people think when this is suggested that it's non-sensical, rather due to the fact that Joko was "just a lich" or because they think she'll just pop back to life with no finesse from the writers. I think they could do some wonderful things with that story. Saying it's cheap favors one episode over an entire story arch, especially this entire season in which we first focused entirely on Joko.

  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2019

    I think people are focusing way too much on Joko when in regards to this topic. Liches in this games narrative have typically been powerful but nowhere near the level of Dragons and Gods. Just because Joko had a trick up his sleeve doesn't mean that either of these could've just snuffed him out any time they wanted. They just didn't really have a reason/opportunity to do so, and in regards to Balthazar, it made more sense for him to trap Joko rather than kill him. In the grand scheme of things, Joko was more a distraction for us than a main villain.

    A few things that come to mind:
    1. "the lich is dead" - None of this sentence has any indication that it needed to be Aurene that killed the lich. It could've just as well been Kralkatorrik(there's a good reason now why he didn't) or the Commander that did it. The only indication here is that Joko getting killed is a roadsign included in whatever prophecy Ogden is talking about. It's unclear what that prophecy is precisely, as the whole "Kralkatorrik seeing a world without him" is only revealed after this point in the story. It could be the same one but then it might not.
    2. As for "cheesy writing" and "Deus Ex Machina", I think there are worse things they could do storytelling-wise if we don't resurrect Aurene into the story. Personally I hate storytelling that comes out of nowhere, and that's exactly what they will have to do if resurrecting Aurene is out of the question.
    3. I have to add that resurrections were a thing back in the days of GW1, especially when in relation to Ascending, so lore-wise it fits while mostly associated with the gods. Just because the gods stopped doing it doesn't mean that there aren't others that can. Perhaps it's Glint that resurrects her daughter.

  • Teratus.2859Teratus.2859 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 22, 2019

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    @Teratus.2859 said:
    Joko doesn't have invincible magic.. he was a Lich.
    There's a lot of speculation regarding how Liches work in Gw2 but the general rule in a lot of fantasy games and works of fiction is that they put their soul into an item or phylactery.. and the only way to truly kill a Lich is to destroy the item binding them to the world after death.

    I do think Anet need to give us more details on Lich's in the Guildwars universe and go into detail on Joko's demise as well.
    So far the only 2 major Liches in Guildwars have died.. one to a Dragon through unspecified conditions and the other had his soul absorbed by a bloodstone way back in Guildwars 1 (although there is an ascended ring item in Gw2 which claims to be that lich's phylactery)

    I've a theory that Joko too had a phylactery and it was his mouth ring.. and odd piece of jewelry he has had for his entire run in the franchise and also the ony thing that could have been broken during his death.

    Not really unspecified conditions though. She ate not just his body but all that fancy magic that kept him alive so long and made him what he was practically POPPED when she bit into him.

    That's what I mean.. it's unclear how this process works in the Guildwars universe.
    The magic Joko possessed was just extremely powerful Necromancy.. so his magic was much like anyone elses just more potent due to his knowledge and mastery of the art over the centuries he's been alive... undead.
    What was keeping him alive as a Lich is what isn't clear.. Gw2 is very unclear about souls tbh
    Theres a whole thing regarding Necromancers and life force as well.
    We can assume there is some kind of connection between souls, spirits and magic in Guildwars.. there are ghosts after all.
    I think it's fair to speculate that Liches in Gw2 do go by the traditional method of binding their souls to an object/phylactery rather than what they appear to be.. namely powerful immortal undead who can only be killed by special characters or objects such as a Dragon or Bloodstone.. that just feels excessive and if it were true you would think becoming a Lich would be far more common in the world.

    My theory in the mouth Ring does explain that pop of magic when his face got chomped down on.. the energy released from the broken ring being his soul set free.
    Aurine keeps his corpse out of sight as well conveniently preventing us from getting a close up to see if his model changed to have a broken ring.
    It wasn't until after she ate his corpse that she displayed any kind of behavior of absorbing magic from it.
    So I doubt she inherited any abilities from Joko.. just more power.
    Aurine has never once displayed any traits involving death magic or Necromancy so if she does magically come back to life because she ate Joko that would just be horrible and a really cheap cop out reason to bring her back imo.
    There's far better ways to write her back into the game ^^

    From a logic-standpoint, it would seem pretty risky wearing the artifact that's giving you immortality on your face. Especially if you're getting into a bunch of fights and at any point you could take a spear or blunt object to the face and have it smash the ring or something. lol

    It depends.. many liches tend to hide their artifacts but then all it takes is for someone to find it and break it or for it to be broken by any number of events (earthquakes, cave ins, volcano, damaged by an animal or careless adventurer).. it could end up stolen and sold and the Lich may spend the rest of his days in fear that at any moment he could die due to event's he could not predict.. owning a Lich's phylactery may even give you power over that Lich as well so I can completely see why someone like Joko might want to keep the ony thing that can kill him close by at all times.
    I also doubt anyone fighting him would think it significant to break the ring when they're more focused on trying to destroy his body.
    Joko also tends to play keep away during the fight as well.. calling in minions to do the fighting for him so it's not like he is himself a great warrior worth his renoun or anything.. but even so.. protecting your face and neck in a fight is a pretty common instinct so in a way it would be fairly easy for someone with Jokos abilities to protect the ring.

    I really hate that the most we got from Joko and his backstory was some minor text at Halloween. Thus another reason why I'm hoping Aurene is brought back via Joko's magic, to give Arenanet the opportunity to at least give us somekind of vision or backstory on Joko and his involvement or his magic's involvement in the grand scheme of things. If they did that, it would also probably lessen some of the naysayer's saltiness about her coming back via Joko. It seems a lot of people think when this is suggested that it's non-sensical, rather due to the fact that Joko was "just a lich" or because they think she'll just pop back to life with no finesse from the writers. I think they could do some wonderful things with that story. Saying it's cheap favors one episode over an entire story arch, especially this entire season in which we first focused entirely on Joko.

    Yeah I too want Anet to give us some serious backlore on Lich's in the Guildwars universe.. Joko is one of the oldest beings in the franchise so there is so much there they can work with.
    I don't want Aurine to come back that way though.. having an invincible OP dragon that can't even be killed would utterly destroy her character imo.
    Her deaths would mean nothing if we knew she could just revive herself every time.
    It's bad writing and that's one reason I'm glad that we didn't have like 50 different battles with Joko each time we win, he dies then comes back.. it would feel pointless.

    I think Bringing Aurine back as a Branded servent of Kralkatorrik is the best option.. having her as an enemy will throw a lot of fans into the deep end of the emotion pool.
    Plus it sets up a really good story arc involving the forgotten and the ritual they used to break Kralkatorriks corruption on Glint.. which is something I expect a lot of Guildwars lore fans like myself would love to finally see in the game.. not to mention the forgotten who are one of the few elder races that may still be alive somwehere.
    It would be great to see them again in Gw2 as an actual race not corrupted monsters.
    The Ritual we use to free Aurine and bring her back to our side could possibly then be adapted and weaponized against Kralkatorrik in the final encounter.. severing his connection to his minions and weakening his powers or something like that giving us the opening we need to finish him off once and for all.

    That would be a far better way to bring Aurine back imo and a fitting debut for the forgotten.
    I also really like the idea of defeating Kralkatorrik entirely before we actually kill him.. I want him to experience all the pain.. fear and loneliness that he deserves before he dies.
    Kralkatorrik appears to be a vicious, selfish and cruel dragon by nature so he really does deserve to end in a vicious and cruel way.
    Severing his ties to his minions and stripping him of his power would be a fitting way to defeat him.
    He'd be alone.. weak.. surrounded by enemies and terrified.. and then we end him!
    It's perfect ^^

  • Just a little something regarding liches in the GW universe : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Khilbron's_Phylactery
    Not that it's factual proof that their magic works like in other fantasy universes, but it's a start.

    Doug Warobaz - Norn To Be Alive [NtbA]

  • Dawdler.8521Dawdler.8521 Member ✭✭✭✭

    kitten, I thought this thread was going to be about the possibility of the Commander walking into a into a dimly lit room and hearing a quiet whisper from the darkness...

    Apples, apples for sale...

    Dont look a gift Asura in the mouth.
    No seriously, dont. Shark teeth.

  • cptaylor.2670cptaylor.2670 Member ✭✭✭✭

    It is a shame we didn’t get any continuance of the deep stone fractal in thunder peaks. Especially given we had the light of Deldrimor.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited January 24, 2019

    @Warobaz.9543 said:
    Just a little something regarding liches in the GW universe : https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Khilbron's_Phylactery
    Not that it's factual proof that their magic works like in other fantasy universes, but it's a start.

    And then we have this: https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Palawan_Phylactery

    Which kind of changes the view of what a phylactery is in Tyria as it's unrelated to liches.

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  • I can't get over #7. Every dragon has 'shattered' on death. Auren has not, therefor I suspect her resilience has been (*severely) underestimated.

  • Konig Des Todes.2086Konig Des Todes.2086 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited February 22, 2019

    @Gwydeon.3580 said:
    I can't get over #7. Every dragon has 'shattered' on death. Auren has not, therefor I suspect her resilience has been (*severely) underestimated.

    Glint didn't either... She does seem crystallized, but that could be decay of flesh leaving the crystalline parts since it has been 11 years since her death.

    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.
    All these squares make a circle.

  • Aaron Ansari.1604Aaron Ansari.1604 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:

    @Gwydeon.3580 said:
    I can't get over #7. Every dragon has 'shattered' on death. Auren has not, therefor I suspect her resilience has been (*severely) underestimated.

    Glint didn't either... She does seem crystallized, but that could be decay of flesh leaving the crystalline parts since it has been 11 years since her death.

    The Claw of Jormag, Tequatl and ilk, Mouth of Mordremoth, and Zhaitan also leave behind intact corpses. At this point, the Shatterer and Vlast are in the clear minority.

    R.I.P., Old Man of Auld Red Wharf. Gone but never forgotten.

  • Hannelore.8153Hannelore.8153 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 23, 2019

    I like how people are making a big deal (elsewhere) about a potential resurrection when:
    1. Resurrection was ended since the days in GW1, and before this, GW2 was infamous for having mass death, to the point that many players found it excessive (example: Blish). Every character who has died up until now has stayed dead, even the Mary Sue.
    2. Literally only one character has ever been resurrected in GW2- The Commander.
    3. The few times where resurrection makes sense, the userbase goes into an uproar about how its going to ruin the story.

    So yes, it does make sense to bring her back..although I would prefer it to be in a unique way (undead, branded ,etc.).

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  • dusanyu.4057dusanyu.4057 Member ✭✭✭
    edited February 25, 2019

    I still think Ogden will bring her back, he is after all a monk that or Ritlock has access to Naomei's ashes ducks and runs

  • @Hannelore.8153 said:
    1. Resurrection was ended since the days in GW1, and before this, GW2 was infamous for having mass death, to the point that many players found it excessive (example: Blish). Every character who has died up until now has stayed dead, even the Mary Sue.
    So yes, it does make sense to bring her back..although I would prefer it to be in a unique way (undead, branded ,etc.).

    Yes, and Scarlet better stay dead, but resurrection has not become impossible, merely lost, as if Lyssa wiped the collective memory of how to use the shrines. Gaheron experimented with returning from the dead, as did other Flame Legion shamans with admittedly mixed results. Maybe Rhendak is truly coming back, after players kick his tail every ten minutes. Gaheron himself attempted a comeback and would have succeeded if not for Scholar Magg's explosive entry and a bunch of adventurers.

  • I think she had to die to go and gather more powers. She was a very young dragon and probably left to trigger a retribution for her death and then to return and help kill off Krak...restoring peace in Tyria..

    That's just my opinion

    @cptaylor.2670 said:

    So, in countless discussion threads there has been mention of Aurene's resurrection "invalidating" the emotions created in this episode. "Cheesy writing." "Deus ex machina." Countless others expert critiques on the matter.

    But how many have actually stopped to weigh the decision of resurrecting her could have and how much sense it already makes to do so?

    1. Ogden mentions the death of a lich is part of the prophecy.
    2. Aurene eats Joko - a lich - that up until that point has never been able to actually die. Because he was consumed by a being that actually eats magic itself. A being that is also known to be able to use said magic - example: Any elder dragon using deceased elder dragon magic, Balth and Aurene both being able to enter and exit the mists as they please due to Balthazar's magic.
    3. Years worth of bonding with this character and being a part of her destiny to fulfill this prophecy that was reinforced in this very episode.
    4. Glint pulling Aurene aside to mention that there are other aspects of Ascenscion that she needs to hear about and that we won't understand.
    5. We have no other back-up story-wise right now that will allow us to fix the damage that will be done if we finish Kralk off, and as easy I can see them finding a way for us to finish Kralk off story-wise if he isn't just slowly bleeding out already we don't technically have a guaranteed way to kill him leaving us needing to find a solution for that first. (A solution that could span an entire season which at the current rate could be two real-life years for all we know. In which we, what? Have this wounded, almost dead elder dragon just chilling out while we find some magical solution that could have worked without Aurene making Aurene's plot entirely pointless?
    6. We have the branding of Caithe, as well as seeing Aurene earlier in the trials come back from her talk with Glint as changed and glowing herself.
    7. Aurene isn't shattered like Glint when she's dead, she isn't crystallized like Glint and Vlast were before-hand... which we've also been communicating with throughout this entire journey due to said crystallization upon-death.
    8. We have an awakened Sylvari in this very same episode acknowledging that a minion or elder dragon descendent can in fact be awakened, meaning whatever magic Joko uses is strong enough or operates on some level that makes it able to resurrect things created from elder dragons. And if a prospective elder dragon happens to gain said magic, what implications might that have?

    If Aurene is resurrected and becomes the solution to our Kralk problem, whether after we recklessly defeat him because we know we have to due to his devouring of the mists and we know this is the best opportunity we may get right now or she helps us in that final fight.... how would the emotions we were expected to feel this episode be lessened or negated completely as people imply?

    1. Her death in this episode and revival next episode would lessen the deus-ex-dragon stigma she's been branded with ever since she ate Joko, and it would validate Joko's death as well as Ogden's words this episode of his death being part of the prophecy.
    2. Kralk may be prophetic and able to sense things, but would he really sense Joko dying or know that it's even possible for Aurene to return to life due to said magic? Doesn't seem like he would, which would give us an advantage to finishing him off in the next episode.
    3. The emotions of her death this episode could be what fuels us to finish Kralk off next episode, and Aurene's revival can come after the fact to clean up the mess, so it will have still served a purpose.
    4. We don't know what her and Glint talked about, and death may have been necessary for her Ascenscion?
    5. The death in this episode may be part of their general plan to separate us from Aurene moving forward, so that she CAN fulfil the role of an Elder Dragon without being this be-all solution for us in future plots. Perhaps this very death is what severs our bond with Aurene moving forward, despite being resurrected, and that's part of what this scene with Caithe is really about. It could be about showing us that this bond between us is broken. So if she comes back to life, she's free from that bond. She's free to take her own place as an Elder Dragon without responsibility toward us. She's fulfilled her destiny and now we're on our own. She can't just sense when we're in trouble and send us some flowery branded back-up. She has essentially mirrored what Kormir did in the first game. This death may allow her to sever all her bonds and her current ties, and between this and the talk she had with Glint about Ascenscion this may just be exactly what is needed to prep her for becoming Kralk's replacement. This would also be a good story excuse for what she's not just swooping in and saving us in future fights. (Which, again, she only did thus far ultimately because it's what her destiny led her to do while on the path to becoming an elder dragon.)
    6. Keep in mind, all we really see is Aurene impaled, Caithe saying the connection is gone and her branding falling off, and Taimi screaming. Then it just cuts out, straight to black. It would seem if their goal was to have some huge emotional response to her death, they would have had follow up banter per usual with the rest of our team. They would have created a time for us to mourn after this encounter. But following it up with pitch black and ending it right there? Why do that unless to pick up right where it left off next episode? (Granted that's something they've never done and for some reason always default to mail or comms and to some degree understandably because if you start the story in the middle of lion's arch it would be a little weird trying to teleport the player back into the previous instance. One reason why these kinds of cliffhangers are annoying and not really fit for this style of story-telling imo.)

    Aurene stays dead:

    1. We are left with a grief-ridden team including a dying Asura that just had a close friend die, and now everything in her life is just death death death and misery....
    2. The entire prophecy was a lie, or just some necessary step to lead us to plan b.
    3. The story has been based around this character for the past few years, and in the end amounted to her just being some martyr that leads us to our next destination.
    4. Aurene enters the mists and fulfills the exact same role that Glint does, but for some reason both of them being in the mists now allows them to fulfill the prophecy and kill Kralk. (Because for some reason Glint couldn't do this on her own and the key to their success was being in the same plane of existence and giving each other emotional support.)
    5. We spent years getting to this point only to have to turn in a different direction, and spend another year or two years (still far less time than the time we've spent with Aurene and her as an egg), trying to find another solution. We find one, and then everything beforehand just feels cheesy and unnecessary.
    6. Said solution we find may be something you think is cool like the staff of the mists, the weapon Vlast talked about - the weapon that does the work of elder dragons. - Okay, great, so the people complaining about Aurene being the solution to all future problems just got a weapon introduced that has no personality or story background with us and can solve all future elder dragon problems. Great trade, and it only took a few short episodes to get.

    This is a bit of a mess, but ultimately, it's just frustrating seeing people reiterate that Aurene's resurrection would trash the story of this episode, without taking into account the many ways it's already been hinted at or the many ways it already makes perfect sense. And from my point of view the only sense. It's the best way that I'm seeing from a story perspective to resolve this plot with Kralk, which could be a very long and rewarding pay-off for years worth of story development that didn't just involve Airship blasting tails and wings or assaulting the mind and body of a dragon. Not only does it create a rewarding pay-off for those years worth of story, but it also creates a blank slate moving forward.

    There are parts of this game's story that make far less sense than Joko's magic resurrecting/repairing Aurene and the parts of it that do not make sense can be far more easily explained than going in a different direction and then attempting to justify that direction change. Sorry, but as cheesy or however much it undermined the "emotional impact" of this episode, having this entire prophecy and bonding with this character only exist as a mere step guiding us in a different direction toward the real resolution or a setback among many setbacks on the way there instead of the actual resolution would be far worse for me.

  • castlemanic.3198castlemanic.3198 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    It ultimately depends on the form of Joko's magic. if it was mundane, then there's zero reason it would give Aurene special powers, since all Elder Dragons have been eating all sorts of magic, and not just the magic of their domains. If "eat magic, gain magic" was the rule, then there wouldn't be an "Elder Fire Dragon" or "Elder Crystal Dragon" they'd all primarily be thematically the same.

    Maybe i'm wrong to think this way, but what if it has to do with physical size?

    Zhaitan was huge compared to many of the artifacts that he consumed, and that could ultimately mean that the magic is just broken down due to the significant size of Zhaitan and dilutes into his death and shadow domains. With the mouths of Zhaitan being directly tied to him, that magic could also get lost within that back and forth connection, killing the mouths (and eyes) is how we weakened zhaitan after all, so maybe that connection directly dilutes whatever magic is incoming.

    But Joko is significantly larger to Aurene compared to those artifacts zhaitan consumed to zhaitan. So if size does matter, maybe Aurene has lost her joko given immortality, since the sheer amount of magic she got from Kralkatorrik would outweigh anything Joko could have given her.

    I don't really have any facts to base this idea off of, to be fair.

    Whataboutism is disingenuous at best. If you join a debate and provide little to no proof when the other side provides lots of evidence, you can't then declare yourself the winner of that debate.

  • That would be very weird, to me, for physical size to influence whether or not one's absorbed enough magic to make use of it. Especially since the physical size comparison of Balthazar and Kralkatorrik is about as big - if not bigger - of a gap as the artifacts and Zhaitan.

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  • Yannir.4132Yannir.4132 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    That would be very weird, to me, for physical size to influence whether or not one's absorbed enough magic to make use of it. Especially since the physical size comparison of Balthazar and Kralkatorrik is about as big - if not bigger - of a gap as the artifacts and Zhaitan.

    Another fact supporting that size doesn't matter is that after absorbing all of Kralkatorriks magic, Aurene doesn't seem to grow into "ED proportions". She's larger than Glint but not even the size of Tequatl or the Shatterer. Atleast that's my impression although it's kinda hard to tell from the cinematic how far away she is.

  • Randulf.7614Randulf.7614 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Yannir.4132 said:

    @Konig Des Todes.2086 said:
    That would be very weird, to me, for physical size to influence whether or not one's absorbed enough magic to make use of it. Especially since the physical size comparison of Balthazar and Kralkatorrik is about as big - if not bigger - of a gap as the artifacts and Zhaitan.

    Another fact supporting that size doesn't matter is that after absorbing all of Kralkatorriks magic, Aurene doesn't seem to grow into "ED proportions". She's larger than Glint but not even the size of Tequatl or the Shatterer. Atleast that's my impression although it's kinda hard to tell from the cinematic how far away she is.

    It may not be an immediate thing. The magic could fuel a growth over a period of time. Perhaps the next time we see her, she will be a lot larger

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