How to handle pugs

Hello, im a commander and the current MU im in our side of pugs seems to chaotic. they dont join squad take ages for them to respond when you move. when you stop for 3 seconds you get milions of afk. If there is anyone that could give me ticks and tricks would be awsome.

Most players seem to need a meat shield, they can cover behind and follow, not just a tag. What seems to work well is, if the commander is already part of a WvW guild, that provides the core of the zerg with a handfull of veterans.

Otherwise, it sounds like you're talking about the representative player base: casual oriented, also plays PvE or random small scale in WvW, joins a zerg only from time to time, doesn't want to play strictly meta-focussed (otherwise they would join a fight guild, I guess), doesn't want to just brain-afk follow commands (otherwise they would join the army or a semi-pro sports team, I guess). So, what exactly are your expectations when leading a public squad in WvW?

1. Tell them what you are about to do before you do it
2. Always expect a delay before they do what you want, and play accordingly
3. Stop regularly to allow them to catch up, but move before they lose attention
4. Make sure you are topped on supplies so you can drop gates/walls fast with lots of siege
5. Shake it up - don't just karmatrain or look for fights, do a little of both so everyone enjoys following you
6. Be nice and inspiring. This is a big factor for whether you get followers or not.
7. Do not lead them to their death over and over. If there's a fight you can't win (say they go for ogre tower and you try to defend it but fail 2-3 times, most commanders hop borders and lose a big chunk of players. The correct way of dealing with this is to go cap a tower in their corner or threateb their keep - by the time they get ogre you they will either rush to defend or attack your keep which is alot more defendable) then going at it from a different angle keeps squadmembers from burning out.
8. Be successful

There's alot more of these, but when it comes to people joining and staying in squad these ones are the major contributors.

@rng.1024 said:

1. Tell them what you are about to do before you do it
2. Always expect a delay before they do what you want, and play accordingly
3. Stop regularly to allow them to catch up, but move before they lose attention
4. Make sure you are topped on supplies so you can drop gates/walls fast with lots of siege
5. Shake it up - don't just karmatrain or look for fights, do a little of both so everyone enjoys following you
6. Be nice and inspiring. This is a big factor for whether you get followers or not.
7. Do not lead them to their death over and over. If there's a fight you can't win (say they go for ogre tower and you try to defend it but fail 2-3 times, most commanders hop borders and lose a big chunk of players. The correct way of dealing with this is to go cap a tower in their corner or threateb their keep - by the time they get ogre you they will either rush to defend or attack your keep which is alot more defendable) then going at it from a different angle keeps squadmembers from burning out.
8. Be successful

There's alot more of these, but when it comes to people joining and staying in squad these ones are the major contributors.

Great list!The first tip is especially useful at least for me.There is this really nice AZ guild charr on DB/GOM server that tags during off hours and he would type out his instructions before doing things.He was the only tag I obeyed willingly.

When I'm with other commanders, I did whatever I felt would best Ensure my survival and tag the most bags because they mostly use discord which I don't, and play closed squads, or alienate non meta specs.

When you pug command you get pugs.

You wont become a master commander until you learn how to herd what basicly amounts to a group of kittens.

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

@rng.1024 said:

1. Tell them what you are about to do before you do it
2. Always expect a delay before they do what you want, and play accordingly
3. Stop regularly to allow them to catch up, but move before they lose attention
4. Make sure you are topped on supplies so you can drop gates/walls fast with lots of siege
5. Shake it up - don't just karmatrain or look for fights, do a little of both so everyone enjoys following you
6. Be nice and inspiring. This is a big factor for whether you get followers or not.
7. Do not lead them to their death over and over. If there's a fight you can't win (say they go for ogre tower and you try to defend it but fail 2-3 times, most commanders hop borders and lose a big chunk of players. The correct way of dealing with this is to go cap a tower in their corner or threateb their keep - by the time they get ogre you they will either rush to defend or attack your keep which is alot more defendable) then going at it from a different angle keeps squadmembers from burning out.
8. Be successful

There's alot more of these, but when it comes to people joining and staying in squad these ones are the major contributors.

Oh boy do I miss the good old days of textmanding :)

I agree, the more relaxed about it the commander is the more likely I am to follow them. I guess the trick is to pick your fights winning the ones you can, and push your group a little against stronger groups once in a while. The good commanders usually quickly discover the limitations of their squad and either play accordingly or try to improve on it - atleast this is what separates those with 50 people following and those with 5.

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:The first tip is especially useful at least for me.There is this really nice AZ guild charr on DB/GOM server that tags during off hours and he would type out his instructions before doing things.He was the only tag I obeyed willingly.

When I'm with other commanders, I did whatever I felt would best Ensure my survival and tag the most bags because they mostly use discord which I don't, and play closed squads, or alienate non meta specs.

And this is a great example why many don't command.If someone tags up, puts in the effort of trying to do something together with the other players on the server. At least show some support by joining what ever vocal program they use, follow the tag and play for the squad and not your own personal bag fiesta.

@Zajo.5946 said:

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:The first tip is especially useful at least for me.There is this really nice AZ guild charr on DB/GOM server that tags during off hours and he would type out his instructions before doing things.He was the only tag I obeyed willingly.

When I'm with other commanders, I did whatever I felt would best Ensure my survival and tag the most bags because they mostly use discord which I don't, and play closed squads, or alienate non meta specs.

And now I feel bag...uh I mean bad XDslaps hand away from the shiny loot bag while standing 5 feet away from the tag

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:And now I feel bag...uh I mean bad XDslaps hand away from the shiny loot bag while standing 5 feet away from the tag

Nothing wrong with that if you play a class that's ment to be away from the tag.

Thanks for all response. i have done alot text commands before but now its just imposible to type and lead while in fights. and great list !

You can lead a horse to water....

Basically, you're only one person, so you have to adjust to what is happening, as opposed to what you think should happen, eg. none of this "omg why did nobody push". You can't expect pugs to not get off the lord, so don't delude yourself into such.

You'll need as much support as you need. Eventually you'll probably notice there are better players that you can rely on. They can follow your movements and not die in 0..0002 seconds. These are the players you want to keep. The players that are half afk, on crappy builds, die immediately, or in the middle of the Sahara in most fights are liabilities, and needed to be treated as such. Don't count them as numbers, let them die, don't res them until the fight is over.

Over time, you will filter a crowd you can rely upon. They will eventually come into comms and maybe listen and be useful. These are the people that are going to make you win. If you're really lucky, you'll get someone to broadcast messages in squad for you. This is a huge boon.

Oh yea, bread and circuses. Karma train and you'll always get a following. A few years ago when our EB was overrun, I'd basically steal all the pugs and go karma train the desert bl lol. If you're struggling I'd advise this tactic. It's often a better idea to tag up on quieter map. If you expect to fling yourself into the fire at the start and lead everyone to glorious victory, well, it doesn't end up like that often.. As long as you get people to feel like they're accomplishing something, they'll stick around. Sometimes you want to blob down the stragglers. (Sorry!) By doing this, you teach people that there are in fact, other maps, and you don't have to get spawn camped.

Home BL when there are no other tags is often a good place to get started. This is because you will always get the support of the BL babysitters club which are often always happy to see any kind of organization, from my experience. OTOH, EB is arguably the worst place to do it due to a higher concentration of idiots although this may be just particular to my own server.

In the end, the \reality of the situation is that strangers simply do not care about you unless you have something to offer them. Just keep that in mind and get that carrot/stick. Drop guild banners or food. That always works. Some cheap feasts that aren't terrible include

https://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast_of_Lemongrass_Poultryhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Tray_of_Raspberry_Peach_Breadhttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast_of_Rare_Veggie_Pizzashttps://wiki.guildwars2.com/wiki/Feast_of_Orrian_Steak_Frittes

Either that, or get good at cracking dirty jokes.

If every commander start tagging up in hopes to find its seclusive click that follows them, we will be stuck with only closed raids, even more meta blocks and a closed of Community.

There needs to be a balance between commanders and every single one that clicks the tag and choose 'Join'.

I admire every single commander that still tags up open, works to get people on ts/discord, puts down food/siege, encourage the squad and initially ask for the players to trust enough to push with.They are sadly very few.

I don't blame the commanders that only tags up for their guild or who has closed tags. I get it. They put in time and effort into that squad and wants to enjoy their game play as much as the next. So why tag up for people who wont push, who don't play as a squad and who doesn't bother to listen in on the commands? Nah, I get it.

Also, the more closed squads we have, the less people will learn about a game play that involves working together with others. Everything from how to cap a sieged T3 keep to common builds and food to the understanding of how to place your skill in combination with others for maximum effect.

Obviously I understand every commander has its own agenda and preferred style of commanding. Which in an essence is good as every player wish to be lead differently as well.

I suggest; if you join a tag who wants you to join ts/discord, who wants you to work as a group, who wants you to push with and stay on tag and who isn’t toxic against everything not themselves; then please support that commander. If you still don’t wanna, then leave that squad and join someone/something else. Why then bother with that commander and why force that commander to bother with you!?

If you didn't learn in the first 6 years why start now?

I can think of a number of reasons. Like not every player being 6 years of game age. Player interest changing over time. Players gaming ability changing over time. Players general interest into the game changing over time. Players time to invest changing over time. I am sure there are more.

@LetoII.3782 said:If you didn't learn in the first 6 years why start now?

Because those that learned 6 years ago are mostly gone.

The majority of pugmanders on my server require you to be in either Discord or our alliance TS channel before giving a squad invite. You can't effectively lead a group of people, especially those unfamiliar with group/zerg play, using chat. As many commanders have said, if they aren't willing to log in to discord to hear a commander's instructions (no mic required - just speakers/headset), then they are probably not going to follow directions anyways.

When you consider the impact of a commander executing a feint push, but a handful of players not on comms charge forward to get insta downed, you quickly see the importance of discord/TS, etc.

@Zajo.5946 said:I can think of a number of reasons. Like not every player being 6 years of game age. Player interest changing over time. Players gaming ability changing over time. Players general interest into the game changing over time. Players time to invest changing over time. I am sure there are more.Agreed, and the game itself changes too. When player numbers drop, either in total or on that specific server / link or in that WvW guild, you may be forced to switch to zerg fights. If the map coverage is somewhat lacking and all you see are dead maps with T3 structures, you might stop roaming and join the zerg. When PvE / PvP didn't get any content for a time, or content you dont want to play, you might look for options. Some ppl only play 1 or 2 classes, that didn't have zerg or WvW builds before HoT or PoF etc.

@Zajo.5946 said:So why tag up for people who wont push, who don't play as a squad and who doesn't bother to listen in on the commands?[...]If you still don’t wanna, then leave that squad and join someone/something else. Why then bother with that commander and why force that commander to bother with you!?For both, commanders and casuals, the answer would be: for winning. Isn't that the original reason, why ppl invented meta builds and tactics and want other ppl to play in such a coordinated way?

There are valid reasons, why some don't want or aren't able (yet) to play coordinated meta. So the question is not imo:"Why do these ppl don't play the way the commander wants to?"but"Where is the incentive of running with 20 coordinated meta players and losing due to the lack of numbers, than instead running with 20 coordinated meta players + 20 newbs / casuals / meta-bored ppl and winning?"

I totally agree on your point, that if there are options available, then ppl can just stick together with others, that share the same attitude / skill level / whatever. But if maps are dead with all-T3-structures, there is no option for solo-roaming / small scale, you better have to come together as a big zerg, to tear that bunkers down. If there are only 40-50ish ppl, willing to do that, there is no option for splitting up into several groups under different tags (could work, but reasons). And during prime time / reset, when the party peaks with above 100ish ppl, normally, fight commanders open tags, not casuals. Because there are ppl, that want to play coordinated meta and thus need those commands.

Just to be clear: I appreciate passionate commanders, even if I'm not fixed to coordinated meta. And there are lots of examples, where I would like to choke some casuals as well :3 <3 (be it in reallife sports or other PC games). But in WvW imo quality and quantity usually have to go hand in hand, that's somewhat contrary to sports or PvP games with strictly fixed team sizes of 5 vs. 5 or 11 vs. 11.

@EremiteAngel.9765 said:

Great list!The first tip is especially useful at least for me. There is this really nice AZ guild charr on DB/GOM server that tags during off hours and he would type out his instructions before doing things. He was the only tag I obeyed willingly.When I'm with other commanders, I did whatever I felt would best Ensure my survival and tag the most bags because they mostly use discord which I don't, and play closed squads, or alienate non meta specs.

Can't agree more with the last line with the caveats:

1. I do tend to play meta or close to it when I zerg.
2. I don't even play with the sound on unless it's a guild run - pug discord is mainly gripes, moans and teenage rage. If I want that I'll go back into teaching for a living!

@Zajo.5946 said:So why tag up for people who wont push, who don't play as a squad and who doesn't bother to listen in on the commands?[...]If you still don’t wanna, then leave that squad and join someone/something else. Why then bother with that commander and why force that commander to bother with you!?@enkidu.5937 said:For both, commanders and casuals, the answer would be: for winning. Isn't that the original reason, why ppl invented meta builds and tactics and want other ppl to play in such a coordinated way?But if maps are dead with all-T3-structures, there is no option for solo-roaming / small scale, you better have to come together as a big zerg, to tear that bunkers down. If there are only 40-50ish ppl, willing to do that, there is no option for splitting up into several groups under different tags (could work, but reasons). And during prime time / reset, when the party peaks with above 100ish ppl, normally, fight commanders open tags, not casuals. Because there are ppl, that want to play coordinated meta and thus need those commands.

Yes I agree. Winning and maybe fun. What I don't understand is why one would join something that doesn't fit your playstyle? Personally I avoid everything that differs from what I want and while I do that I choose not to join what I dislike and then talk badly about it (ok, that might not be true, I do complain and whine. But I avoid doing it in a way that ruins the game for others). However I understand that we have to deal with what's offered. So by no means do I think every choice is black or white. But one should at least try to make the best of it.

@"enkidu.5937" said:

There are valid reasons, why some don't want or aren't able (yet) to play coordinated meta. So the question is not imo:"Why do these ppl don't play the way the commander wants to?"but"Where is the incentive of running with 20 coordinated meta players and losing due to the lack of numbers, than instead running with 20 coordinated meta players + 20 newbs / casuals / meta-bored ppl and winning?"

I Think the conversation can become very complicated when we add meta-demands or any other demand. Why I chose to ignore it. I don't think any class or any build should be discarded in a squad. I do however believe that if the squad is stacked with the current best classes in cutthroat parties, with meta builds and with everything flavor of the month, the chance of winning is bigger. My comment was mainly in regards of what the commander asks of you in terms of support in the squad. Like join ts, stay on tag, push when I push. Don't smack talk. And so on.

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:If you didn't learn in the first 6 years why start now?

That's assuming the vast swarms of clueless started last week. I'd posit instead they've been here all along but had more people (aka organized guilds) to hide behind.

@LetoII.3782 said:

@Strider Pj.2193 said:

@LetoII.3782 said:If you didn't learn in the first 6 years why start now?

We both know that assumption is wrong.

The organized guilds leaving / not running nearly as often has hurt, and I can’t blame them for it.

I guess my only point was, there is a vacuum. I think people will try to step into it, but without people to train them, (and this isn’t blaming anyone for that) it will go extremely roughly, because of the ‘vast swarms of clueless’.

I'm surprised we haven't seen the "Be toxic to the pugs" posts because pugs are horrible for WvW. Not so surprised to see the "You must use TS or Discord" posts though, even though there are some people that can't use it for various reasons or don't like to use it, again for various reasons. It doesn't take long to learn that you do your best to stick with the commander. It doesn't take long to realize that there are strategies involved in how you zerg in WvW. It also doesn't take long to type out in map chat one word commands to better help those that aren't on TS or Discord to organize with those that are. The commander can designate one of the backliners to relay information from TS or Discord in map chat to those that aren't and things will go a lot smoother than trying to do it without trying to clue in those that aren't on TS or Discord. Problem is is that most commanders have some kind of an elitist attitude that makes them not want to include those players unwilling or unable to conform to their demands.

@Zajo.5946 said:What I don't understand is why one would join something that doesn't fit your playstyle?Because big-scale modes like WvW are about making tradeoffs, especially if its not a WvW guild, but a public lead / open tag with 50ish pug ppl in it. And because of a lack of options, as I already posted. I personally expect ppl, that only want to play a very specific style to get organized in guilds, but not to create open public tags and then wonder or rage, why ppl don't act as they are supposed to. So I guess, your question can be applied to both, commanders and followers as well.

Since the TO only communicates via chat, I guess, its complicated to make clear, what he / she is preferring / demanding from his / her followers. Thats why I asked, what exactly he / she is expecting from a chat-led public zerg / open tag. I would expect ppl, that dislike strictly coordinated play, to join chat commanders, and ppl that enjoy strictly coordinated play, to join a voice chat commander.

@Zajo.5946 said:Personally I avoid everything that differs from what I want and while I do that I choose not to join what I dislike and then talk badly about it (ok, that might not be true, I do complain and whine. But I avoid doing it in a way that ruins the game for others).There are commanders, that exactly do this: open a public tag and then complain about casuals. There are ppl that understand their server as a team and primarily are willing to do tradeoffs, for the sake of winning. And there are ppl (commanders and puglings as well), that primarily want to play their own game in terms of specific style, goals etc. Which is totally ok imo, but for public zergs it could be usefull, just to lower expectations imo. EDIT: and I know, that many commanders already lower their expectations when switching to open public tag and still get disappointed. Its maybe simply not clear to pugs, what each commander is up to, like the commander in this thread, that uses chat.

@enkidu.5937 said:I Think the conversation can become very complicated when we add meta-demands or any other demand.Sry, I misred that.

first, you must treat the pug like a classy lady. you open the door for her, pay for the meal, and take her home. kiss on cheek. no kiss and tell. hold hands through tough times, tell her it will be alright. only then can it become official.

Move and shift like you know what you're doing and you know what's coming, you'll know what that feels like when you do it, and don't worry how many people you have on you. You'll snow ball when enough people see you at least know how to peel your squad away under control and wont let yourself get farmed, you're keeping hot key commands and group chat simple and encouraging, and that you're actually getting some stuff done without too many long breaks.