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Core game only league?

Paradoxoglanis.1904

By Paradoxoglanis.1904
in Player vs. Player

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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

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@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:What are peoples thoughts on this? Having a separate ranked and unranked league where only the core classes are allowed. I happened to play a match where most people were the core classes and it was really fun. Would adding another league be too much to hope for?

There is nothing but problems with this. I've ran one core tournament myself and have been a part of a couple others. Here are the issues:

  • Core now is nothing like core was before HoT release and the 6/23/2015 patch that changed how condi worked entirely.
  • You also have the change from traits into specializations, which just changed everything. Some core classes are now just far more powerful than others, it doesn't work anymore. It's completely imbalanced.
  • You also have the release of new runes, sigils & amulets, Now even those have received power creep.
  • Many weapon sets have been buffed or nerfed to accommodate the problems with an elite spec being too strong or too weak. This appears as balancing for elite specs, but in the world of core only, this just makes for some enormous imbalance.
  • Other huge balance issues - Some core kits have received great buffing, while others are ignored completely. A good example is Necromancer shroud or Engineer F skills which have received numerous buffs, whereas something like core Ranger pets have been literally untouched for like 6 years.

I'll save you some time and explain what happens during core only tournaments:

  • Only Core Warrior & Core Guard are viable to win a tournament.
  • Axe/Axe Rangers are somewhat viable if allowed to use expansion pets, S/D Thieves can keep up for awhile, Power Mesmers can at least be viable and have fun. But even these 3 eventually get knocked out by a good player on a Warrior or Guard.
  • Then the Core Warrior ends up winning the tournament, 9/10 times. Usually the 2nd to final and final round is full of Core Warriors. In the end, they are able to 1v1 Core Guards pretty easily, and due to virtue of enormous damage from recent buff, they kill the Core Guard quickly after his Renewed Focus drops, because Core Guard has no ability to kite at all.
  • But yeah, Core Warrior and Core Guard ruin the idea of core only tournament. Don't waste your time, it just pisses all participants off when they realize they can't kill Core Warriors unless they play a Core Warrior.
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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

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@"Ayrilana.1396" said:The same issues that people are complaining about now existed before elite specs. You also need to consider the number of players that would actually do core only and what the queue times would look like.

There are actually a lot of people who have expressed much interest in this as of the last few months, because when they think of "core only" they are remembering right before HoT release and 6/23/2015 patch, when the core game was in a great state of balance and every class had 2 to 3 viable builds to play. But this is no longer the case. Most participants of core only tournaments don't show up a 2nd time around for the reasons I've already explained. Well, not unless they're a Warrior main anyway.

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@"Ayrilana.1396" said:The same issues that people are complaining about now existed before elite specs. You also need to consider the number of players that would actually do core only and what the queue times would look like.

There are actually a lot of people who have expressed much interest in this as of the last few months, because when they think of "core only" they are remembering right before HoT release and 6/23/2015 patch, when the core game was in a great state of balance and every class had 2 to 3 viable builds to play. But this is no longer the case. Most participants of core only tournaments don't show up a 2nd time around for the reasons I've already explained. Well, not unless they're a Warrior main anyway.

Careful that you’re not thinking back with rose colored glasses because I remember frequent complaints about balance back before HoT. A core only league will have considerably longer queue times than the existing league. It may not be worth it for a lot of people.

Edit: Found some threads complaining about balance.

Some about condi imbalances:

About condi Mesmer:

About lack of builds in general due to OP builds:

Looks like those were just complaints from September. It looks like prior to HoT, in that period that you claim to have been the best balance, was actually the burn meta. Builds with burns performed very well over other builds.

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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:The same issues that people are complaining about now existed before elite specs. You also need to consider the number of players that would actually do core only and what the queue times would look like.

There are actually a lot of people who have expressed much interest in this as of the last few months, because when they think of "core only" they are remembering right before HoT release and 6/23/2015 patch, when the core game was in a great state of balance and every class had 2 to 3 viable builds to play. But this is no longer the case. Most participants of core only tournaments don't show up a 2nd time around for the reasons I've already explained. Well, not unless they're a Warrior main anyway.

Careful that you’re not thinking back with rose colored glasses because I remember frequent complaints about balance back before HoT. A core only league will have considerably longer queue times than the existing league. It may not be worth it for a lot of people.

The only thing people complained about in the last days of core was D/D Cele Elementalist, and for good reasons. Outside of that, the last days of core were quite balanced, and every class had much more versatility in options than we have now. Again, every class quite seriously had 2 to 3 builds that were viable competitively. Somehow the old meta listings for the core game, were much longer than the meta listings after we've had two expansions release, granting two new trait lines to each class, and even a new 9th class. <- That's not an opinion, that is a fact! Maybe it's an indication that the game was more balanced in those days?

Regardless, it sounds like maybe you haven't ran any core tournaments lately. I highly suggest getting involved. It is definitely something to experience before making such suggestions.

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Ayrilana.1396

Ayrilana.1396

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:The same issues that people are complaining about now existed before elite specs. You also need to consider the number of players that would actually do core only and what the queue times would look like.

There are actually a lot of people who have expressed much interest in this as of the last few months, because when they think of "core only" they are remembering right before HoT release and 6/23/2015 patch, when the core game was in a great state of balance and every class had 2 to 3 viable builds to play. But this is no longer the case. Most participants of core only tournaments don't show up a 2nd time around for the reasons I've already explained. Well, not unless they're a Warrior main anyway.

Careful that you’re not thinking back with rose colored glasses because I remember frequent complaints about balance back before HoT. A core only league will have considerably longer queue times than the existing league. It may not be worth it for a lot of people.

The only thing people complained about in the last days of core was D/D Cele Elementalist, and for good reasons. Outside of that, the last days of core were quite balanced, and every class had much more versatility in options than we have now. Again, every class quite seriously had 2 to 3 builds that were viable competitively. Somehow the old meta listings for the core game, were much longer than the meta listings after we've had two expansions release, granting two new trait lines to each class, and even a new 9th class. <- That's not an opinion, that is a fact! Maybe it's an indication that the game was more balanced in those days?

Regardless, it sounds like maybe you haven't ran any core tournaments lately. I highly suggest getting involved. It is definitely something to experience before making such suggestions.

You’re wrong about that and not remembering correctly. Look back at the links I added to my post. People were complaining about conditions and especially burning to be more specific.

Also, I wasn’t making any suggestions so I have no idea why you thought that.

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Trevor Boyer.6524

Trevor Boyer.6524

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@Ayrilana.1396 said:

@Ayrilana.1396 said:The same issues that people are complaining about now existed before elite specs. You also need to consider the number of players that would actually do core only and what the queue times would look like.

There are actually a lot of people who have expressed much interest in this as of the last few months, because when they think of "core only" they are remembering right before HoT release and 6/23/2015 patch, when the core game was in a great state of balance and every class had 2 to 3 viable builds to play. But this is no longer the case. Most participants of core only tournaments don't show up a 2nd time around for the reasons I've already explained. Well, not unless they're a Warrior main anyway.

Careful that you’re not thinking back with rose colored glasses because I remember frequent complaints about balance back before HoT. A core only league will have considerably longer queue times than the existing league. It may not be worth it for a lot of people.

Edit: Found some threads complaining about balance.

Some about condi imbalances:

About condi Mesmer:

About lack of builds in general due to OP builds:

Looks like those were just complaints from September. It looks like prior to HoT, in that period that you claim to have been the best balance, was actually the burn meta. Builds with burns performed very well over other builds.

My good dude, these posts are all made after 6/23/2015 condi patch "which was release imminently before HoT release." HoT was release 4 months later in October. This isn't the balanced core meta people talk about. This is after the condi patch, when things like burn were allowed to stack, which is why you're posting all of these things you're seeing about condi. The 6/23 patch is widely viewed as the beginning of the end for the GW2 pvp balance. Any player who has been competitive throughout the years, who witnessed the distinct changes on that day, would tell you the same thing.

But you're trying to make this point, and I get it, and you want to show me up in the forum. But you're not understanding that these posts you're posting are all related to that that 6/23 patch. The balance before 6/23/2015 was cherry. And that's why you hear so many people talk about it an reference those old days as "Back when the game had better balance."

Point being, core now is not what core used to be. It's not even relative to the same thing in any way. Again, I'll tell you that: You should go participate in one of these Core Tournaments, and then come back here and tell us about it. Tell us if that core world balance is worth Arenanet hosting events.

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Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

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Most people who play homebrewed competitive modes outside of the established purview of a game's respective developers, often do so under the governance of a white list which limits the use of certain abilities, characters, items and so forth. If you're already talking about limiting the scope of play options to "core only," then there is zero issue with further limiting build choice by banning things like certain skills, traits or gear items or by limiting the total number of particular classes that a team can have on the field at any given time during a match.

Want to make core somewhat interesting?

  • Limit all classes to a maximum of only 2 per team
  • Ban Warrior off-hand shield
  • Ban all Guardian heals except the signet and shout

There are definitely plenty of other things that could be culled, but that probably addresses the only real complaints that anyone in this thread has made regarding how core PvP in CURRENT YEAR +3 would be (understandably) terrible.

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Multicolorhipster.9751

Multicolorhipster.9751

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@"Swagg.9236" said:Most people who play homebrewed competitive modes outside of the established purview of a game's respective developers, often do so under the governance of a white list which limits the use of certain abilities, characters, items and so forth. If you're already talking about limiting the scope of play options to "core only," then there is zero issue with further limiting build choice by banning things like certain skills, traits or gear items or by limiting the total number of particular classes that a team can have on the field at any given time during a match.

Want to make core somewhat interesting?

  • Limit all classes to a maximum of only 2 per team
  • Ban Warrior off-hand shield
  • Ban all Guardian heals except the signet and shout

There are definitely plenty of other things that could be culled, but that probably addresses the only real complaints that anyone in this thread has made regarding how core PvP in CURRENT YEAR +3 would be (understandably) terrible.

Even then; in the effort to make it possible, restricting what you can do with your build, and what class you can play goes against a lot of what many would consider core parts of what makes Gw2 great in the first place.

If you could disable certain specializations in custom arena's, now that might be interesting without splitting the handful of pvpers up. 1v1 Deadeye only on Rust.

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BlackTruth.6813

BlackTruth.6813

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Sadly, they would have to bring back the logic of pre-HoT 2015 before this happens (The one where you could use fire/air on weapons, and how strong each weapons were, IIRC sigil of energy gave 50% endurance back as well back in the day but I can't remember if it was like that at pre-HoT). I don't know if they even have people who reverse code or are they even willing to bring back an "Expansion" that simulates pre-HoT 2015 that keeps the elite specializations around on a separate server. GW2 viewship was AT IT'S PEAK pre-HoT but I doubt ANET will care.

Might be easier to simply attempt to balance out the core specs and the elite specs for them, but they legit put themselves in such a bad position already that I doubt the game will get back to it's former glory.

If there was only a core only league, people would only play Core-guard core-Warrior. Pre-HoT 2015, every class had representation.

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Swagg.9236

Swagg.9236

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@Multicolorhipster.9751 said:

@"Swagg.9236" said:Most people who play homebrewed competitive modes outside of the established purview of a game's respective developers, often do so under the governance of a white list which limits the use of certain abilities, characters, items and so forth. If you're already talking about limiting the scope of play options to "core only," then there is zero issue with further limiting build choice by banning things like certain skills, traits or gear items or by limiting the total number of particular classes that a team can have on the field at any given time during a match.

Want to make core somewhat interesting?
  • Limit all classes to a maximum of only 2 per team
  • Ban Warrior off-hand shield
  • Ban all Guardian heals except the signet and shout

There are definitely plenty of other things that could be culled, but that probably addresses the only real complaints that anyone in this thread has made regarding how core PvP in CURRENT YEAR +3 would be (understandably) terrible.

Even then; in the effort to make it possible, restricting what you can do with your build, and what class you can play goes against a lot of what many would consider core parts of what makes Gw2 great in the first place.

If you could disable certain specializations in custom arena's, now that might be interesting without splitting the handful of pvpers up. 1v1 Deadeye only on Rust.

There is nothing good or interesting about stacking overtuned classes, guardian being a "blue thief," or some mong pressing a button and standing still for 3 seconds; and this game basically revolves around those factors. That means it's a trashy game. Most classes end up playing similarly in a lot of ways in which they engage, burst and disengage from fights, so culling a lot of the more unfair elements just sort of outs GW2 for what it is: a game with 5 too many classes for its own good and loads of bloat in between. Basically, if you want to make a white list with the goal of it making GW2 PvP fair and engaging, you also end up removing a lot of redundant playstyles options so that the few things left would actually be somewhat different. That's just the nature of this game.

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Arheundel.6451

Arheundel.6451

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@Paradoxoglanis.1904 said:What are peoples thoughts on this? Having a separate ranked and unranked league where only the core classes are allowed. I happened to play a match where most people were the core classes and it was really fun. Would adding another league be too much to hope for?

Do you realise that guardian is the most easymode class in game?....Core guard is like a design troll joke, you could win core tournament blindfolded

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Im Too Godlike.5629

Im Too Godlike.5629

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I guess this hasn't been mentioned yet? ANET is a business that needs money to function... adding a core only league would allow people who paid exactly 0$ for the game to get their competitive kick in... leading to worse sales on an already bad quarter for sales...

Before posting anything complaining about anet's actions, first ask yourself if it makes financial sense for the company to do that thing. It will answer a lot of the questions that many people ask in here and save you some time.

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Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

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@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I'll save you some time and explain what happens during core only tournaments:

  • Only Core Warrior & Core Guard are viable to win a tournament.

Fixing a core-only environment is a lot easier than trying to fix elite specs though.

Core guardian is supported by a handful of traits which are completely over-budget. Namely Monk's Focus and Righteous Instincts. Tone those down and it drops their survivability to something more appropriate for the high damage output.

I'm not as familiar with warrior, so I can't really say which are the problem traits/abilities.

With many elite specs, you have to re-design a significant part of it in order to give it trade-offs.

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otto.5684

otto.5684

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@Exedore.6320 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I'll save you some time and explain what happens during core only tournaments:
  • Only Core Warrior & Core Guard are viable to win a tournament.

Fixing a core-only environment is a lot easier than trying to fix elite specs though.

Core guardian is supported by a handful of traits which are completely over-budget. Namely Monk's Focus and Righteous Instincts. Tone those down and it drops their survivability to something more appropriate for the high damage output.

I'm not as familiar with warrior, so I can't really say which are the problem traits/abilities.

With many elite specs, you have to re-design a significant part of it in order to give it trade-offs.

And if you do that all none support FB builds will be completely unviable.

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Impact.2780

Impact.2780

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I would whole heartedly support a game mode where everything was as it was before Heart of Thorns butchered the long-awaited balance we had finally received, and sadly only got to enjoy a few months of.

I sorely miss 10/30/0/0/30 thief, 20/20/0/0/30 shatter mesmer, terrormancer, cele d/d ele and rifle engi. Everyone running around facerolling with marauder and no concept of strategy or hopes for ESL is disgusting.

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Exedore.6320

Exedore.6320

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@otto.5684 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I'll save you some time and explain what happens during core only tournaments:
  • Only Core Warrior & Core Guard are viable to win a tournament.

Fixing a core-only environment is a lot easier than trying to fix elite specs though.

Core guardian is supported by a handful of traits which are completely over-budget. Namely Monk's Focus and Righteous Instincts. Tone those down and it drops their survivability to something more appropriate for the high damage output.

I'm not as familiar with warrior, so I can't really say which are the problem traits/abilities.

With many elite specs, you have to re-design a significant part of it in order to give it trade-offs.

And if you do that all none support FB builds will be completely unviable.If you're going to commit to a core-only variant, then you've essentially admitted that HoT + PoF elite specs aren't able to be balanced and should just be ignored.
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otto.5684

otto.5684

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@Exedore.6320 said:

@Trevor Boyer.6524 said:I'll save you some time and explain what happens during core only tournaments:
  • Only Core Warrior & Core Guard are viable to win a tournament.

Fixing a core-only environment is a lot easier than trying to fix elite specs though.

Core guardian is supported by a handful of traits which are completely over-budget. Namely Monk's Focus and Righteous Instincts. Tone those down and it drops their survivability to something more appropriate for the high damage output.

I'm not as familiar with warrior, so I can't really say which are the problem traits/abilities.

With many elite specs, you have to re-design a significant part of it in order to give it trade-offs.

And if you do that all none support FB builds will be completely unviable.If you're going to commit to a core-only variant, then you've essentially admitted that HoT + PoF elite specs aren't able to be balanced and should just be ignored.

Well, core guardian is not balanced on the basis of how it performs against other core builds. It is balanced against top tier builds. Some classes have competitive builds from core. Some classes from core and HoT. Some classes from all three.

I agree with you that theoretically builds from all three should be competitive. But if we have functional core builds, like guardian or thief, the builds should not be nerfed to match with other core builds, but other core builds should be buffed. Of course this will mean elites of these classes have to be nerfed. Though, this is a massive endoaver, which I dunno if Anet will ever take.

Until then, I can speak only for guardian here. Core guardian is the strongest dps build for guardian. It is Good, but not top tier by any means. There is no logical reason to nerf it to match up with let’s say core ele or ranger. It is balanced to compete against soul beast and weaver. And should remain as such.

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