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Future change to Raid Reward Delivery

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  • @Fenom.9457 said:

    @Awesumness.1823 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:

    @Awesumness.1823 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:

    @Awesumness.1823 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    Ahh for a second I’d hoped it might somehow be related to making legendary armor with unique skins more attainable for everyone some way or another

    Are you asking for the specific skins or the stat/upgrade swap? Or both?

    Zedd already covered the other options for the stats swap. I don't think Anet will suddenly change "legendary raid skin from doing raids" to "legendary raid skin from doing arbitrary stuff outside raids." In the same fashion Ad Infinitum will stay locked behind fractals and Aurora will stay locked behind LS season 3.

    Skins. It can be extremely hard content from comepitive or fractals or a ton of grinding in PvE.

    The Raid specific skin should stay raid locked just as Ad Infinitum should stay fractal locked and Aurora should stay Season 3 locked. Those rewards are intertwined with their respective content and related collection steps. Perhaps a new set with a new look could be locked behind content other than PvP, WvW, Raids, and Fractals.

    It needn’t be as prestigious as the raid version

    I can't tell you what to think, but trust me when I say very few people think the raid specific look is prestigious, much less the process of acquisition.

    @Fenom.9457 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    Ahh for a second I’d hoped it might somehow be related to making legendary armor with unique skins more attainable for everyone some way or another

    Why?

    Always hopeful

    I wasnt making myself clear. Why are you hoping for that? All other "locked" rewards are fine but this one isnt?

    [...] I just want an armor set with uniquely legendary skins obtainable anywhere besides raids

    I like this idea, but I don't think this forum is going to gain the traction for such an ask. Although, what truly worries me about a new type of legendary armor is the extremely monotonous and time gated tasks it'll require, similar to Aurora and the Diviner's jewel.

    Yes just to be clear, I am not asking for the raid set to be obtainable anywhere else, a new set associated with some other content is what I’d like. Something more accessible than raids but still very hard to acquire since it’s legendary. Maybe a time commitment rather than the hardest content in game? Grinding over beating top of the line tough stuff less times?

    Wvw armor is already the grinding legendary armor set over beating the top of the line tough go get it.

    I would, but the skins look the same as ascended correct? So if I do so in the interest of (visually as well as functionally) getting all legendary gear, that wouldn’t work. Am I wrong about the skins being ascended too?

    It sounds like you want armor that looks unique and "legendary" but the only skin that meets these requirements is the raid armor because... it transforms? WvW has the tendrils which look pretty unique.

    And the convenience of stat swap is not as important because you'd already have WvW or PvP armor?

    While not gw2e is not 100% accurate, it's interesting to see Requeim Plate and Perfected Envoy Breastplate are both at ~3.44% unlock rate while Sublime Mistforged Triumphant Hero's Raiment is only 1.04%.

    Yes, that's exactly what I want, is a specifically legendary skin. The same way that, if you could upgrade ascended weapons to legendary more easily than craft an existing legendary weapon, I'd still make the weapons with uniquely legendary skins. I did notice the chest piece for the WvW armor is unique, and have thought about making it. Unfortunately, the rest of the set is the same as ascended. But, maybe I've overestimated how prestigious a skin is based off just its rarity. I already have the full requiem set for my main, and that's just as rare? Perhaps I have all the prestige I need (plus requiem is a bit cooler, yes?)

    IMO none of these armor sets are prestigious because requiem is just time/money gated; envoy armor can essentially be bought and the requirements aren't anything challenging if you do weekly clears; and rarity doesn't equate to prestige.

    I think the monthly automated tournaments gizmos are the only prestigious thing left that one can still acquire, and even a few of these have been bought! But at least acquiring one still requires dedication and skill much higher than any PvE/WvW armor.

    If you define prestige based on rarity I think the PvP legendary gear is even more "prestigious" with a ~.34% unlock rate. So if you want really rare armor and stat swap, PvP legendary is the way to go!

    You vote with your wallet
    2012 - 2017 PoF: deluxe editions of both expansions and $300 in gems
    March 2018 - August 2019: Raiding. $55 per month in gems
    September 2019 - now. $0. Quit. No ArcTemplates or equivalent

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Linken.6345 said:
    And if you dont raid or wvw what do you need to change your stats for?

    The same reason as anyone else - to use a different build. Seriously, raids and WvW do not have monopoly on this.

    @Awesumness.1823 said:
    It seems this thread is under the "Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids" section, so maybe the people asking for stat swap on gear that's obtained outside of "Fractals, Dungeons, and Raids" should start a thread in that respective forum? :)

    There were several such threads. All were moved to raids subforum for some reason, however.

    When I search the last year for legendary armor, the only posts I see in this subforum are people complaining about the look of the envoy set and people asking for fractal armor, both of which seem in the proper subforum. I also see threads in the PvP forum talking about their set, wvw talking about their set, and General asking for a generic set. I don't see any threads in this subforum asking for legendary gear not associated with Dungeons, Fractals, or Raids. Do you have a link to those moved threads?

    You vote with your wallet
    2012 - 2017 PoF: deluxe editions of both expansions and $300 in gems
    March 2018 - August 2019: Raiding. $55 per month in gems
    September 2019 - now. $0. Quit. No ArcTemplates or equivalent

  • @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    For me vriffon is locked behind extremly hard content because i am falling asleep after 5 minutes in open world. There is no other way to get it.
    On the other hand you can BUY legendary armor from other players just as you can buy legendary weapon on trading post. Instead of searching in trading post you search in lfg.

    That's not entirely true, you know. You can't straight out buy crystalline heart for cairn, for example. If you won't put some work into it yourself, you will never get it no matter how high you will pay. Same with Mursaat and Deimos - these may be easier than Cairn's, but still not something that can be obtained by gold alone.

    Only problem is cairn rest can be easily bought.

    I didn't say they weren't easy. Only that they can't really be straight out bought, because they do need you to play through the encounter without dying. So, no, it's not comparable to buying a legendary weapon off TP.

    I thought the problem with legendary armor was difficulty.
    Yesterday i finished first precursor for legendary ring. Havent done it for a long time and one of the reasons was that I need griffon for the last part. I didnt want to buy and more importantly run in open world more that was nececary so I payed someone to port me. Still I had to be there. Same concept

    The problems in the context of this thread are a mix of the following:

    People think raid armor is prestigious when its "prestige" doesn't reallly mean much.
    People want legendary looking armor and unfortunately raid armor is the only set that transforms.

    These two issues together lead to nonRaiders only wanting to raid to get stat swap and prestige, not to play raids for fun or to grow their skills which is closer to raid mentality. The complaints about difficulty are just a symptom of the player's wants not aligning with the reward system.

    Honesty it seems we just need another PvE set that requires all achievements in LS season 2+3+4 or something. The biggest challenge will be convincing Anet to create another set of unique armor since raiders still whine about envoy to this day.

    You vote with your wallet
    2012 - 2017 PoF: deluxe editions of both expansions and $300 in gems
    March 2018 - August 2019: Raiding. $55 per month in gems
    September 2019 - now. $0. Quit. No ArcTemplates or equivalent

  • Zedd.8239Zedd.8239 Member
    edited April 9, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Zedd.8239 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    Ahh for a second I’d hoped it might somehow be related to making legendary armor with unique skins more attainable for everyone some way or another

    If legendary armor is something you want and don't want to raid, you can obtain it through PvP or WvW.

    So, basically, same as with raids, through content that a vast majority of players simply do not play.

    Of course, this is a problem if you don't like PvP or WvW. Still, it's a decent alternative if you aren't into raiding and just want the functionality of legendary armor.

    The proble is with the "decent" part. It is indeed an alternative, but for most players it's exactly as unappealing as the original method.

    So, while it is nice for WvW players, it doesn't really help with the issue for most of the PvE ones.

    I agree that there should be another way to obtain legendary armor in PvE. Fractals seem like a logical place to add it. It might even get more people into fractals. Perhaps take an approach similar how it's made in WvW and PvP? You'd combine various items that you've bought using the fractal currencies in the mystic forge to eventually upgrade ascended pieces to legendary. The exact number of items and their cost would need to be different than the other methods of obtaining them to fit the fractal rewards. They even already have a fractal ascended armor merchant.

    At the point I started creating legendary armor, I wasn't raiding and never thought I would (although my guild recently started this week). I'm not really a fan of the raid armor skins anyway. So I opted to go the next easiest route. I'm not saying the WvW or PvP routes are ideal for PvE players. But just speaking from experience, the WvW legendary armor is actually quite easy to get (assuming you don't go for the versions of the skins that require rank 1800 or something). It does take a while, though.

    To me, the convenience of legendary armor is simply way too valuable to not go for it at this stage even if WvW isn't my preferred game mode. I often change my build to match the content I'm playing and I got tired of storing an entire clothing department's worth of armor in my bank. XD

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zedd.8239 said:
    I agree that there should be another way to obtain legendary armor in PvE. Fractals seem like a logical place to add it.

    Fractals do seem like a logical place, but they have one major flaw. They are a content aimed at mostly the same type of players as raids. Especially if we include CMs in requirements, as some people are proposing. What's really needed is a path for majority of players - a set of collections based around the core content (with at best shallow dipping in other types of content).

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Goldsinks should be removed and raid currency from CM clears should be the standard. Yes, you can still buy the CM clears, but the cost would be prohibitive to most and the skins would get the prestige.

    It's also a matter of design. You should earn the reward for doing the content relevant to it, not just complete the achievement and then kitten off raids because raid payout is abysmal and the mountain of gold to craft the rest of the armor is more efficiently farmed by doing open world braindead zerg farm or auction house baron.

    This game is atrocious about making instanced content rewarding because it would rather squeeze the whales' credit cards by putting immense goldsinks on everything to incentivize gem to gold conversions.

    WoW and FFXIV have it right, the relevant content should award the rewards without forcing some economy aspect into them.

  • Linken.6345Linken.6345 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Goldsinks should be removed and raid currency from CM clears should be the standard. Yes, you can still buy the CM clears, but the cost would be prohibitive to most and the skins would get the prestige.

    It's also a matter of design. You should earn the reward for doing the content relevant to it, not just complete the achievement and then kitten off raids because raid payout is abysmal and the mountain of gold to craft the rest of the armor is more efficiently farmed by doing open world braindead zerg farm or auction house baron.

    This game is atrocious about making instanced content rewarding because it would rather squeeze the whales' credit cards by putting immense goldsinks on everything to incentivize gem to gold conversions.

    WoW and FFXIV have it right, the relevant content should award the rewards without forcing some economy aspect into them.

    So your asking for a sub fee then?
    Thats the way wow and ffxiv get the cash from people gems is gw2 way.

  • yann.1946yann.1946 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Goldsinks should be removed and raid currency from CM clears should be the standard. Yes, you can still buy the CM clears, but the cost would be prohibitive to most and the skins would get the prestige.

    It's also a matter of design. You should earn the reward for doing the content relevant to it, not just complete the achievement and then kitten off raids because raid payout is abysmal and the mountain of gold to craft the rest of the armor is more efficiently farmed by doing open world braindead zerg farm or auction house baron.

    This game is atrocious about making instanced content rewarding because it would rather squeeze the whales' credit cards by putting immense goldsinks on everything to incentivize gem to gold conversions.

    WoW and FFXIV have it right, the relevant content should award the rewards without forcing some economy aspect into them.

    You realise goldsinks are their to combat inflation right?

  • Zenith.7301Zenith.7301 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @yann.1946 said:

    @Zenith.7301 said:
    Goldsinks should be removed and raid currency from CM clears should be the standard. Yes, you can still buy the CM clears, but the cost would be prohibitive to most and the skins would get the prestige.

    It's also a matter of design. You should earn the reward for doing the content relevant to it, not just complete the achievement and then kitten off raids because raid payout is abysmal and the mountain of gold to craft the rest of the armor is more efficiently farmed by doing open world braindead zerg farm or auction house baron.

    This game is atrocious about making instanced content rewarding because it would rather squeeze the whales' credit cards by putting immense goldsinks on everything to incentivize gem to gold conversions.

    WoW and FFXIV have it right, the relevant content should award the rewards without forcing some economy aspect into them.

    You realise goldsinks are their to combat inflation right?

    One-time goldsinks are an atrocious way to combat inflation. Proportional taxation of gold generation is way more effective at removing gold from the population anyways.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Zedd.8239 said:
    I agree that there should be another way to obtain legendary armor in PvE. Fractals seem like a logical place to add it.

    Fractals do seem like a logical place, but they have one major flaw. They are a content aimed at mostly the same type of players as raids. Especially if we include CMs in requirements, as some people are proposing. What's really needed is a path for majority of players - a set of collections based around the core content (with at best shallow dipping in other types of content).

    The "problem" here is not that majority cannot play raids/wvw/pvp but that they dont want to. There are 3 ways to get legendary armor and that is not enough. Meanwhile there is only one way to get legendary accesory. I dont want to do openworld so i will not get that even if i want to.
    Everyone (and i mean everyone) can get raid armor. I know people that clear dhuum CMs with one hand. Hell i know one player that cleared dhuum CM without hands. Legendary gear is about going out of your comfort zone.
    Raiders ned to go to ow for armor/ring, fractal players too for backpack, ow players need to go to wvw for gift of battle etc.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Zedd.8239 said:
    I agree that there should be another way to obtain legendary armor in PvE. Fractals seem like a logical place to add it.

    Fractals do seem like a logical place, but they have one major flaw. They are a content aimed at mostly the same type of players as raids. Especially if we include CMs in requirements, as some people are proposing. What's really needed is a path for majority of players - a set of collections based around the core content (with at best shallow dipping in other types of content).

    The "problem" here is not that majority cannot play raids/wvw/pvp but that they dont want to.

    That's not a problem. If they don't, they don't. There's nothing wrong with that. Likes and dislikes of players are just one among many factors the game has to take into consideration.

    There are 3 ways to get legendary armor and that is not enough. Meanwhile there is only one way to get legendary accesory. I dont want to do openworld so i will not get that even if i want to.

    Yes, more ways to get accessories would probably be a good thing.

    Everyone (and i mean everyone) can get raid armor.

    That's like saying "anyone can be a millionaire". Yes, that's true, and yet most people don't become one - and in many cases not because lack of trying.

    I know people that clear dhuum CMs with one hand.

    And? Are they willing to carry the all of the remaining 99.9% of the game population? No? I thought so.
    There are indeed very skilled players in this game, but most people are not capable of ever achieving the same level of ability. It's not a matter of just effort.
    Just like no amount of training alone can make a random person another Usain Bolt.

    So, unless those top skilled players are willing to carry everyone else (and why would they want to do that?) there's no point in bringing them up in a discussion like that.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @Zedd.8239 said:
    I agree that there should be another way to obtain legendary armor in PvE. Fractals seem like a logical place to add it.

    Fractals do seem like a logical place, but they have one major flaw. They are a content aimed at mostly the same type of players as raids. Especially if we include CMs in requirements, as some people are proposing. What's really needed is a path for majority of players - a set of collections based around the core content (with at best shallow dipping in other types of content).

    The "problem" here is not that majority cannot play raids/wvw/pvp but that they dont want to.

    That's not a problem. If they don't, they don't. There's nothing wrong with that. Likes and dislikes of players are just one among many factors the game has to take into consideration.

    There are 3 ways to get legendary armor and that is not enough. Meanwhile there is only one way to get legendary accesory. I dont want to do openworld so i will not get that even if i want to.

    Yes, more ways to get accessories would probably be a good thing.

    Everyone (and i mean everyone) can get raid armor.

    That's like saying "anyone can be a millionaire". Yes, that's true, and yet most people don't become one - and in many cases not because lack of trying.

    I know people that clear dhuum CMs with one hand.

    And? Are they willing to carry the all of the remaining 99.9% of the game population? No? I thought so.
    There are indeed very skilled players in this game, but most people are not capable of ever achieving the same level of ability. It's not a matter of just effort.
    Just like no amount of training alone can make a random person another Usain Bolt.

    So, unless those top skilled players are willing to carry everyone else (and why would they want to do that?) there's no point in bringing them up in a discussion like that.

    "Problem" is not a problem. Thags why there are "".
    Everyone statisticaly cannot be millionare because ones succes is linked to others fail. In raids if you clear the raid it doesnt mean that someone else will fail automaticaly.
    There are players willing to carry you (for compensation).
    You dont need to be usain bolt to get legendary armor, you just need to train enough so you can finish 100m race.

    So I will rewrite my statement. Anyone who want raid legendary armor and actualy try to reserch and complete the challanges will get it.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 11, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    "Problem" is not a problem. Thags why there are "".
    Everyone statisticaly cannot be millionare because ones succes is linked to others fail. In raids if you clear the raid it doesnt mean that someone else will fail automaticaly.

    Yes, in a way it is exactly like that. Raids are a type of challenging content, and are balanced around the assumption not everyone can clear them. If that assumption is proven to be wrong, and too many people manage to clear the hurdle, such content will get rebalanced. Or it will no longer be considered challenging. It will be the "easy mode".

    Raids couldn't exist as a meaningful content if truly everyone could clear it. That possibility must remain only purely theoretical for a majority of players. The same as with being millionaire - It's not a limited amount of money that is an issue. It's that wealth is relative. So is challenge.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • PaladinVII.1647PaladinVII.1647 Member ✭✭✭

    I like how "Bouncy Chest" has become an official term!

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    "Problem" is not a problem. Thags why there are "".
    Everyone statisticaly cannot be millionare because ones succes is linked to others fail. In raids if you clear the raid it doesnt mean that someone else will fail automaticaly.

    Yes, in a way it is exactly like that. Raids are a type of challenging content, and are balanced around the assumption not everyone can clear them. If that assumption is proven to be wrong, and too many people manage to clear the hurdle, such content will get rebalanced. Or it will no longer be considered challenging. It will be the "easy mode".

    Raids couldn't exist as a meaningful content if truly everyone could clear it. That possibility must remain only purely theoretical for a majority of players. The same as with being millionaire - It's not a limited amount of money that is an issue. It's that wealth is relative. So is challenge.

    Thats true but until anet change it everyone can learn and clear them

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    "Problem" is not a problem. Thags why there are "".
    Everyone statisticaly cannot be millionare because ones succes is linked to others fail. In raids if you clear the raid it doesnt mean that someone else will fail automaticaly.

    Yes, in a way it is exactly like that. Raids are a type of challenging content, and are balanced around the assumption not everyone can clear them. If that assumption is proven to be wrong, and too many people manage to clear the hurdle, such content will get rebalanced. Or it will no longer be considered challenging. It will be the "easy mode".

    Raids couldn't exist as a meaningful content if truly everyone could clear it. That possibility must remain only purely theoretical for a majority of players. The same as with being millionaire - It's not a limited amount of money that is an issue. It's that wealth is relative. So is challenge.

    Thats true but until anet change it everyone can learn and clear them

    If that is indeed true, then they are badly balanced in the first place.

    It is (again) as true, as saying that anyone can become a millionaire. Yes, in theory that's true, but only in theory - in practice, in most cases it's extremely unlikely.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    "Problem" is not a problem. Thags why there are "".
    Everyone statisticaly cannot be millionare because ones succes is linked to others fail. In raids if you clear the raid it doesnt mean that someone else will fail automaticaly.

    Yes, in a way it is exactly like that. Raids are a type of challenging content, and are balanced around the assumption not everyone can clear them. If that assumption is proven to be wrong, and too many people manage to clear the hurdle, such content will get rebalanced. Or it will no longer be considered challenging. It will be the "easy mode".

    Raids couldn't exist as a meaningful content if truly everyone could clear it. That possibility must remain only purely theoretical for a majority of players. The same as with being millionaire - It's not a limited amount of money that is an issue. It's that wealth is relative. So is challenge.

    Thats true but until anet change it everyone can learn and clear them

    If that is indeed true, then they are badly balanced in the first place.

    It is (again) as true, as saying that anyone can become a millionaire. Yes, in theory that's true, but only in theory - in practice, in most cases it's extremely unlikely.

    I am sorry, i guess i dont understand. What is the problem that keep someone from learning raids?

  • Katary.7096Katary.7096 Member ✭✭

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yes, in a way it is exactly like that. Raids are a type of challenging content, and are balanced around the assumption not everyone can clear them. If that assumption is proven to be wrong, and too many people manage to clear the hurdle, such content will get rebalanced. Or it will no longer be considered challenging. It will be the "easy mode".

    Raids couldn't exist as a meaningful content if truly everyone could clear it. That possibility must remain only purely theoretical for a majority of players. The same as with being millionaire - It's not a limited amount of money that is an issue. It's that wealth is relative. So is challenge.

    Are you suggesting that Arenanet is deliberately gatekeeping raidcontent completion rates at X% and that they will make changes to the encounters (in either direction) once they find a reasonable deviation from the amount which they consider to be the "correct" one?

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 15, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    I am sorry, i guess i dont understand. What is the problem that keep someone from learning raids?

    There are several factors that directly or indirectly affect it - the key ones being time available, social factor, learning curve and physical factors.
    1. This is rather obvious, i hope - learning raids takes time. The less time you can dedicate to it, the slower the process.
    2. This should also be obvious - having friends (especially already experienced ones) that can raid with you help immensely with learning. On the other hand, having to learn everything by pugging can be quite a slow process, depending on the quality of pugs RNGesus will bless/curse you with.
    3. People learn at a different rate. One player may grasp something after one-two attempts, while another might require weeks and weeks of repeated attempts.
    4. Learning speed is one thing - execution is something different. Learning something doesn't always mean you can put it in practice. There are people with significantly slower reactions. There are people that will have problems with perception (recognizing attack tells, for example, or noticing that something important is happening). There are people that have problems with manual dexterity required for some things (for example, i know people that are completely incapable of doing some rotations at decent levels, because they simply cannot press keys fast enough). There can also be some other issues - for example, many rotations require from the player at least some feel for timing. Not everyone is capable of that to a required degree.
    All of those things impact how fast someone can learn. And here we get to the crux of the matter - while indeed in theory, after putting enough time and effort in it, everyone can learn to clear raids, the truth is that this effort and time is not the same for everyone. For some it will be fast and easy. For others, the amount of effort and time they'd have to put in it is so big to make the whole thing not realistic.

    And that's even without addressing the enjoyment factor.

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yes, in a way it is exactly like that. Raids are a type of challenging content, and are balanced around the assumption not everyone can clear them. If that assumption is proven to be wrong, and too many people manage to clear the hurdle, such content will get rebalanced. Or it will no longer be considered challenging. It will be the "easy mode".

    Raids couldn't exist as a meaningful content if truly everyone could clear it. That possibility must remain only purely theoretical for a majority of players. The same as with being millionaire - It's not a limited amount of money that is an issue. It's that wealth is relative. So is challenge.

    Are you suggesting that Arenanet is deliberately gatekeeping raidcontent completion rates at X% and that they will make changes to the encounters (in either direction) once they find a reasonable deviation from the amount which they consider to be the "correct" one?

    No, i am suggesting that Raids were meant for the people that wanted a content not everyone would be able to clear. If truly everyone could do that, then raids would have to be considered to be a complete failure. So, in a way, yes - while Anet probably didn't have any specific % numbers in mind, they still deliberately designed the content to have low completion rates.

    Remember, that "difficulty" is relative, not absolute. A content everyone can clear is neither difficult nor challenging.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    I am sorry, i guess i dont understand. What is the problem that keep someone from learning raids?

    There are several factors that directly or indirectly affect it - the key ones being time available, social factor, learning curve and physical factors.
    1. This is rather obvious, i hope - learning raids takes time. The less time you can dedicate to it, the slower the process.
    2. This should also be obvious - having friends (especially already experienced ones) that can raid with you help immensely with learning. On the other hand, having to learn everything by pugging can be quite a slow process, depending on the quality of pugs RNGesus will bless/curse you with.
    3. People learn at a different rate. One player may grasp something after one-two attempts, while another might require weeks and weeks of repeated attempts.
    4. Learning speed is one thing - execution is something different. Learning something doesn't always mean you can put it in practice. There are people with significantly slower reactions. There are people that will have problems with perception (recognizing attack tells, for example, or noticing that something important is happening). There are people that have problems with manual dexterity required for some things (for example, i know people that are completely incapable of doing some rotations at decent levels, because they simply cannot press keys fast enough). There can also be some other issues - for example, many rotations require from the player at least some feel for timing. Not everyone is capable of that to a required degree.
    All of those things impact how fast someone can learn. And here we get to the crux of the matter - while indeed in theory, after putting enough time and effort in it, everyone can learn to clear raids, the truth is that this effort and time is not the same for everyone. For some it will be fast and easy. For others, the amount of effort and time they'd have to put in it is so big to make the whole thing not realistic.

    And that's even without addressing the enjoyment factor.

    @Katary.7096 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:
    Yes, in a way it is exactly like that. Raids are a type of challenging content, and are balanced around the assumption not everyone can clear them. If that assumption is proven to be wrong, and too many people manage to clear the hurdle, such content will get rebalanced. Or it will no longer be considered challenging. It will be the "easy mode".

    Raids couldn't exist as a meaningful content if truly everyone could clear it. That possibility must remain only purely theoretical for a majority of players. The same as with being millionaire - It's not a limited amount of money that is an issue. It's that wealth is relative. So is challenge.

    Are you suggesting that Arenanet is deliberately gatekeeping raidcontent completion rates at X% and that they will make changes to the encounters (in either direction) once they find a reasonable deviation from the amount which they consider to be the "correct" one?

    No, i am suggesting that Raids were meant for the people that wanted a content not everyone would be able to clear. If truly everyone could do that, then raids would have to be considered to be a complete failure. So, in a way, yes - while Anet probably didn't have any specific % numbers in mind, they still deliberately designed the content to have low completion rates.

    Remember, that "difficulty" is relative, not absolute. A content everyone can clear is neither difficult nor challenging.

    All you stated is correct but if someone wants to learn it then then they will. As you said, its about time and dedication.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    All you stated is correct but if someone wants to learn it then then they will. As you said, its about time and dedication.

    Correction. They will try to learn. Whether they'll learn however is not certain. The key point here is not "dedication" but "time". For some players, the time they've got won;t be enough.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    All you stated is correct but if someone wants to learn it then then they will. As you said, its about time and dedication.

    Correction. They will try to learn. Whether they'll learn however is not certain. The key point here is not "dedication" but "time". For some players, the time they've got won;t be enough.

    How many hours do you think is needed for most players to learn raids enough to clear wing 1-4 ? 100 hours?
    Even if you play an hour per week you will get there in 2 years.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    All you stated is correct but if someone wants to learn it then then they will. As you said, its about time and dedication.

    Correction. They will try to learn. Whether they'll learn however is not certain. The key point here is not "dedication" but "time". For some players, the time they've got won;t be enough.

    How many hours do you think is needed for most players to learn raids enough to clear wing 1-4 ? 100 hours?

    For some, yes. I do know however a group for whom those 100 hours (to be more precise, 6-8 hours of trainings per week, each week, for 3 months) were barely enough to kill VG. Once. And no, the group was not lacking in the dedication department.

    Even if you play an hour per week you will get there in 2 years.

    See above. Notice also, that the longer the breaks between trainings, the less experience retained from training to training. If the group mentioned above had only 1 hour per week for training, 2 years might not have been enough for that one kill.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • ButcherofMalakir.4067ButcherofMalakir.4067 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    All you stated is correct but if someone wants to learn it then then they will. As you said, its about time and dedication.

    Correction. They will try to learn. Whether they'll learn however is not certain. The key point here is not "dedication" but "time". For some players, the time they've got won;t be enough.

    How many hours do you think is needed for most players to learn raids enough to clear wing 1-4 ? 100 hours?

    For some, yes. I do know however a group for whom those 100 hours (to be more precise, 6-8 hours of trainings per week, each week, for 3 months) were barely enough to kill VG. Once. And no, the group was not lacking in the dedication department.

    Even if you play an hour per week you will get there in 2 years.

    See above. Notice also, that the longer the breaks between trainings, the less experience retained from training to training. If the group mentioned above had only 1 hour per week for training, 2 years might not have been enough for that one kill.

    I agree with that. I think that if players dont have time to play raids then also they wouldnt have time to do the other way to get legendary armor.

    I dont understand how could vg require that much dedication but i will take your word for it.

    I was helping crossroads inn teach raids for half a year and outside of dhuum, soulless horror and deimos they killed at least 1 boss each training. There was only one player that havent seen improvement and he never came in with right gear etc.

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭
    edited April 16, 2019

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    I agree with that. I think that if players dont have time to play raids then also they wouldnt have time to do the other way to get legendary armor.

    It's the learning time - you don't need a lot of that for WvW for example. You can start earning your legendary from day 1. In raids, there's no "partial success" on encounter - only kills count. A wipe at 5% boss hp still earns you no LI. So, you need to sink a lot of time into it before you even start earning any progress on your path towards legendary.

    I dont understand how could vg require that much dedication but i will take your word for it.

    I was helping crossroads inn teach raids for half a year and outside of dhuum, soulless horror and deimos they killed at least 1 boss each training. There was only one player that havent seen improvement and he never came in with right gear etc.

    Key points here being "helping" and "teach". Training groups from training guilds always have at least one veteran leading the group, often one or two more to help, and the rest is a mix of new players and those that have already seen the fight a number of times.The group i was talking about however was completely made up of new players (not new to the game, but new to raiding and the demands this level of play places on both group and individual players), and all of them started raiding practically completely fresh (that included dps players having to learn rotations, and some players having to make and learn support classes). Try to do VG when your healers and chronos are completely new to both class and role, and the rest of the players think at the start that 10k (on boss, not on golem) is good dps, and you will understand what i mean. Ah, also, overheal strat didn't exist yet then, and chronos weren't good enough for dependable distort share, so the group had to run greens.

    That's the impact of the social factor here. You learn better in a group where most of the players are veterans that have this fight already mastered. Especially if the key roles are covered. A group consisting of new players without even a single veteran to help will progress much, much slower.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    I agree with that. I think that if players dont have time to play raids then also they wouldnt have time to do the other way to get legendary armor.

    It's the learning time - you don't need a lot of that for WvW for example. You can start earning your legendary from day 1. In raids, there's no "partial success" on encounter - only kills count. A wipe at 5% boss hp still earns you no LI. So, you need to sink a lot of time into it before you even start earning any progress on your path towards legendary.

    I dont understand how could vg require that much dedication but i will take your word for it.

    I was helping crossroads inn teach raids for half a year and outside of dhuum, soulless horror and deimos they killed at least 1 boss each training. There was only one player that havent seen improvement and he never came in with right gear etc.

    Key points here being "helping" and "teach". Training groups from training guilds always have at least one veteran leading the group, often one or two more to help, and the rest is a mix of new players and those that have already seen the fight a number of times.The group i was talking about however was completely made up of new players (not new to the game, but new to raiding and the demands this level of play places on both group and individual players), and all of them started raiding practically completely fresh (that included dps players having to learn rotations, and some players having to make and learn support classes). Try to do VG when your healers and chronos are completely new to both class and role, and the rest of the players think at the start that 10k (on boss, not on golem) is good dps, and you will understand what i mean. Ah, also, overheal strat didn't exist yet then, and chronos weren't good enough for dependable distort share, so the group had to run greens.

    That's the impact of the social factor here. You learn better in a group where most of the players are veterans that have this fight already mastered. Especially if the key roles are covered. A group consisting of new players without even a single veteran to help will progress much, much slower.

    Yes. But everyone cal learn from veterans if they open some search engine and type in training discord. I did that when walking to the dentist. I know that learning by yourself is way harder so why not use the help some players (and highly skilled i may add) offer for free

  • Vinceman.4572Vinceman.4572 Member ✭✭✭✭

    Over the years I met a bunch of players who weren't able to succeed in "harder" stuff like dungeons, fractals & raids. These people didn't have any kind of diseases or anything related they just had their strengths in other areas. Still, they had and want to have things like legendary weapons and made huge effort getting them. Defeating raid and some fractal bosses in higher Tiers like 3 or 4 are a different level (for them). Heck, even dedicated and very fast jumping puzzle players weren't able to react and execute mechanics properly so the "they can/will learn thing" won't fit to everyone. And GW2 is a game that attracts such kind of players more than other MMOs which is totally fine as GW2 is sort of a harbour for them.

    R.I.P. Build Templates, 15.10.2019

  • Astralporing.1957Astralporing.1957 Member ✭✭✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Yes. But everyone cal learn from veterans if they open some search engine and type in training discord. I did that when walking to the dentist. I know that learning by yourself is way harder so why not use the help some players (and highly skilled i may add) offer for free

    Language barrier.

    The whole point of a social game is to play with the people you want to play with, not be forced to play with the people you don't.

  • @Astralporing.1957 said:

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:
    Yes. But everyone cal learn from veterans if they open some search engine and type in training discord. I did that when walking to the dentist. I know that learning by yourself is way harder so why not use the help some players (and highly skilled i may add) offer for free

    Language barrier.

    I totaly forget that. In my country basicaly everyone under 35 years speaks english. I havent relised that in some places english is not compolsoury in schools.

  • Rain.7543Rain.7543 Member ✭✭

    @ButcherofMalakir.4067 said:

    @Fenom.9457 said:
    Ahh for a second I’d hoped it might somehow be related to making legendary armor with unique skins more attainable for everyone some way or another

    Why?

    Because obviously he can't be bothered with doing it the way it is and wants it easier and use every thread, as opportunity to let his wish be known. Well, too bad. It isn't happening. On the topic on hand. A wonderful QoL change indeed. I never had problem at obtaining my rewards, however I can absolutely see how frustrating it would be to people that had that issue before.